About 12th Imam

All research or scholarship questions
HuangRan
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About 12th Imam

Postby HuangRan » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:42 am

Dear friends,

In the Kitab-i-Iqan published in 2003 by the NSA of US, there's a note for the 12th Imam in the glossary on p.251: Muhammad, son of the eleventh Imam; died at age five in the year A.H.260/A.D.362.

I heard another saying that the 12th Imam, who was the son of the 11th Imam, did not really exist, and the Bab is the 12th Imam.

Which is correct?

The year A.H.260 is not A.D.362, and how to understand this?

larry
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby larry » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:55 pm

...the Bab gradually confided that he was not merely a gate to the Hidden Imam but the manifestation of the expected Imam, the Qá'im himself, whose appearance the Shi`is expected for a thousand years. Preoccupied with numerology and occult sciences, the Bab drew on the fact that his "manifestation of the [divine] cause" occurred in the year 1260 AH, a thousand years after the presumed Greater Occultation of the Twelfth Imam, Muhammad ibn Hasan al-`Askari, in the year 260 AH/873-874. He also drew on the fact that he was a sayyid, a descendant of the house of the Prophet, from which the Mahdi will appear, while stressing his own intuitive experiences and visions, his purity of character, and his ability to utter holy verses similar to the Qur'án. Implicitly denying the doctrine of Occultation, he further stated that his manifestation was a symbolic return of the Lord of the Age and not the flesh-and-blood reappearance of Muhammad ibn Hasan al-`Askari, who had died a millennium earlier (Amanat 1989, 109-211).
Referenced from: http://bahai-library.com/amanat_resurge ... ptic_islam

If you scroll down to The Babi Movement and the Bahá'í Faith you will find the above excerpt (page 242).

There are many details associated with your question regarding the Twelfth Imam, His Occultation and Return. You may find reading Chapter 8 - The Twelfth Imam, His Occultation and Return in Moojan Momen's book An Introduction to Shi'i Islam helpful.

Jonah
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby Jonah » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:25 pm

If anyone needs chapter 8 from this book, "The Twelfth Imam, His Occultation and Return," let me know by pm or email (I don't have permission to post the whole book online.)

Thanks, -Jonah

MontanaDon
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby MontanaDon » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:06 pm

I think the "362" is a typo/misprint.

There are differences of opinion by scholars as to whether the 12 Imam had a physical existance according to the statements of Abdu'l-Baha.

Don C
----------
Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.

HuangRan
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby HuangRan » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:15 pm

MontanaDon wrote:There are differences of opinion by scholars as to whether the 12 Imam had a physical existance according to the statements of Abdu'l-Baha.


Could you please help to find the original statements of 'Abdu'l-Baha?

Thanks

larry
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby larry » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:15 pm

Reference: http://fananapazir.co.nr/sixtranslations.html

Provisional Translation
4] from His holiness 'Abdu'l-Baha
**
Muh.Ad.arat Volume 2 page 833 Dar khus.us. e Imam e Thaani 'ashar. Thou hast asked the detail in relation to the 12th Imam. The realisation of this entity has never been in the world of corporeal existence. Rather His holiness the 12th Imam has always been in the realm of the unseen. He had never a realization in the world of physicality rather some of the leaders of the Shi'ihs at that time in the past, merely to protect the weak souls considered it expedient to describe that Personage Who is present in the realm of the unseen in this manner. Their descriptions were such that one could almost imagine that He is in the realm of physicality. For the world of existence in its totality is one world. "It is only unseen in relation to you and it is only visible in relation to you." All this was their consideration, their thought their expedience. There is a couplet composed by Ibn H.ajar in this regard in his S.awaa'iq [vide note below]

How can the Sardab [=the Cellar in Samarra Iraq] give birth to a human child?

God forgive your thoughts! for you have truly found a third to the mythical twin of the phoenix and the mythical giant.

In sum if you refer to all the traditions in this regard and if you exert the utmost careful study you will conclude that this peerless being the 12th Imam has never existed in the world of physical existence.***

Please keep in mind that this is a PROVISIONAL Translation.

MontanaDon
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby MontanaDon » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:51 pm

Tnx Larry, that was what I was thinking about. But it is not universally accepted because there are other statements that appear to indicate that he did have a corporeal existance.

Don C
----------
Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.

HuangRan
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby HuangRan » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:30 am

Thanks A LOT, to all of you above!!

brettz9
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby brettz9 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:39 am

Does anyone have other references seeming to suggest he did exist?

He is mentioned in the Dawn-breakers, a work edited by Shoghi Effendi, at http://bahai-library.com/books/dawnbrea ... islam.html , but this is only a quotation of a secular source summing up Shi'ih belief.

Mention is also made of twelve in a few other quotes I could find (see http://bahai9.com/wiki/Im%C3%A1mate#Number_being_twelve ), but this would not necessarily need to imply historical accuracy (especially since the Báb is seen as completing the twelve and 'Abdu'l-Baha apparently speaking of him being only in the unseen realm).

Christopher Buck at http://bahai-library.com/buck_encyclopedia_kitab_iqan states "historically, both Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá state that the Twelfth Imam never existed." but no references are given. The closest I could find in this vein is at http://bahai9.com/wiki/Im%C3%A1m_Muhammad , where Bahá'u'lláh seems He may be suggesting that just as the city of the Twelfth Imam was figurative and really in reference to the next world, so too may be the Imam himself.

iranpour
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby iranpour » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:46 am

HuangRan wrote on an. 5, 2013:
The year A.H.260 is not A.D.362, and how to understand this?

Hello HuangRan, the equivalent of A.H. 260 is A.D. 844, the answer to your above question, the only one without any answer.

The Day of God in the Qur’an and the Bible is a thousand years and Qa’im or Mahdi, the promised one of Islam, appeared just a thousand year after the Revelation of the Qur’an plus the interpretations of Imams (260 years) and the Bab appeared at A.H. 1260, A.D. 1844.

The poets and writers of old when They wanted to prophesy an important date they brought it in a word which its numerical value was the same as that date, e.g.
Mirza Muhammad Akhbari has some poems which have prophesied the date of coming of the Promised One, Qa’im (Mahdi) namely the Bab. He says that in the year “GHARAS” the earth will be illuminated by the revelation of the Qa’im.
(Gharas) in Arabic consists of three letters Gh (ghaf), r (Ra’), and s (Sin) the numeral number of them in Abjad Notation are 1000, 200 and 60 respectively, the sum of them is 1260, A.H. 1260 or A.D. 1844, the Proclamation of the Bab.

Muhyid’din Arabi in his books and epistles has prophesied the NAME of Qaim and the YEAR of His coming: “The blessed name of Qa’im is a mixture of the names of the Nabi (the Prophet) and vali (The Guardian: Ali, the successor of Muhammad), while the name of Vali proceeds the name of Nabi”, which makes ‘ALI MUHAMMAD, the given name of the Bab.

Also he prophesied the date of His coming is equal to the HALF OF THE SMALLEST NUMBER which is divisible to each and all the figures from 1 to 9. (This number is 2520 which can be divided to any of the figures and there will be no remainder. And half of that number (2520) is 1260, the year of the proclamation of the Bab.

Hafiz one of the greatest poets of Iran has a poem which prophesizes the month of birthday and the year of the coming of the Qa’im (Mahdi), namely the Bab, he says:
See THE CRESCENT OF MUHARRAM, and ask for the CUP of the wine of happiness,
Because it is the month of safety and the year of peace and well-being.

In this poem Hafiz refers to the BIRTHDAY of the Bab which is on the CRESCENT OF MUHARRAM, (*) or the first of Muharram A.H.1235 (so it is with the birth of Baha’u’llah which is in the second day of the same month).

Also in this poem, CUP in Farsi is SAGHAR which has four letters S (sin) = 60, A (alif) =1, ghein (gh) =1000 and R (ra’) =200 the sum of them is equal to 1261 the year after the Bab had proclaimed His Mission.

"The Báb, Whose name was Siyyid Ali-Muhammad, was born on the first day of Muharram 1235 A.H., and Bahá'u'lláh on the second day of the same month in 1233 A.H. These dates are in accordance with the lunar calendar used in the Islamic world.
_________________________________________________________________________________
(*). Regarding the Lunar Calendar of Muslims, any month begins with the crescent of the moon, so THE CRESCENT OF MUHARRAM means the first of Muharram the month of the birth of the Bab.

HuangRan
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby HuangRan » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:21 pm

Thank you Brettz9 and Iranpour for the further informations in details, which completely satisfied me.

brettz9
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby brettz9 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:55 pm

Adib Ma'sumian has graciously translated 3 references in the Baha'i Writings regarding the 12th Imam, the first two by Baha'u'llah, and the third by 'Abdu'l-Baha:

* https://adibmasumian.com/translations/t ... -of-jafar/
* https://adibmasumian.com/translations/e ... e-of-qaim/
* https://adibmasumian.com/translations/t ... lfth-imam/

(He's also kindly given permission to host them at b-l, which I intend to bring over as I have energy.)

Note that it appears that the Ja'far referenced in these Tablets was telling the truth about the fact that the 12th Imam died but was apparently still accountable for not refuting the acclamations of the people that he was the next Imam.

Best wishes,
Brett

shabbirh1974
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby shabbirh1974 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:00 pm

Dear Friends:

The Shiites believe that the 12th Imam is alive and well, albeit in occultation. That he was born on the 15th day of the Islam month of Shabaan 255 AH. That he went into occulation at the age of 5 years in 260 AH (AH referring to after Hijrah, the year in which the Holy Prophet of Islam migrated from Mecca to Medina).

How does this align to the Bahai thought about the 12th Imam? What are the prophecies regarding the Mahdi or the Qaim which fit the personality of the Bab?

Regards,
Shabbir H

shabbirh1974
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby shabbirh1974 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:03 pm

HuangRan wrote:Dear friends,

In the Kitab-i-Iqan published in 2003 by the NSA of US, there's a note for the 12th Imam in the glossary on p.251: Muhammad, son of the eleventh Imam; died at age five in the year A.H.260/A.D.362.

I heard another saying that the 12th Imam, who was the son of the 11th Imam, did not really exist, and the Bab is the 12th Imam.

Which is correct?

The year A.H.260 is not A.D.362, and how to understand this?


I have posted a similar question. I have read through some of the replies and am seeking more information which will satisfy my thought.

Regards
Shabbir H

brettz9
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby brettz9 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:15 am

Hello and welcome Shabbir,

Please see the post immediately before yours for some non-authoritative translations of texts which are published on the authoritative website describing the Baha'i attitude toward the 12th Imam. The rest of this thread may also be of interest.

Best wishes,
Brett

shabbirh1974
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby shabbirh1974 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:05 am

brettz9 wrote:Hello and welcome Shabbir,

Please see the post immediately before yours for some non-authoritative translations of texts which are published on the authoritative website describing the Baha'i attitude toward the 12th Imam. The rest of this thread may also be of interest.

Best wishes,
Brett


Dear Brett:

I would appreciate it if you can post the material here again. My question is - what is the position of Bab with respect to Islam, more particularly Shiite Islam.

Regards
Shabbur Husain

brettz9
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby brettz9 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:28 pm

Adib Ma'sumian has graciously translated 3 references in the Baha'i Writings regarding the 12th Imam, the first two by Baha'u'llah, and the third by 'Abdu'l-Baha:

* https://adibmasumian.com/translations/t ... -of-jafar/
* https://adibmasumian.com/translations/e ... e-of-qaim/
* https://adibmasumian.com/translations/t ... lfth-imam/

(He's also kindly given permission to host them at b-l, which I intend to bring over as I have energy.)

Note that it appears that the Ja'far referenced in these Tablets was telling the truth about the fact that the 12th Imam died but was apparently still accountable for not refuting the acclamations of the people that he was the next Imam.

Best wishes,
Brett

brettz9
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Re: About 12th Imam

Postby brettz9 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:36 pm

Others here may be better qualified to refer to the prophecies (iranpour has provided some). Per the translations just posted, Baha'is do not take the occultation literally but do believe the Bab can be seen as the promised 12th Imam.

Baha'u'llah affirms this in Gems of Divine Mysteries:

"All that thou hast heard regarding Muhammad the son of Hasan[34] - may the souls of all that are immersed in the oceans of the spirit be offered up for His sake - is true beyond the shadow of a doubt, and we all verily bear allegiance unto Him. But the Imáms of the Faith have fixed His abode in the city of Jábulqá,[35] which they have depicted in strange and marvellous signs. To interpret this city according to the literal meaning of the tradition would indeed prove impossible, nor can such a city ever be found...

"We bear witness that Muhammad, the son of Hasan, was indeed in Jábulqá and appeared therefrom. Likewise, He Whom God shall make manifest abideth in that city until such time as God will have established Him upon the seat of His sovereignty. We, verily, acknowledge this truth and bear allegiance unto each and every one of them. We have chosen here to be brief in our elucidation of the meanings of Jábulqá, but if thou be of them that truly believe, thou shalt indeed comprehend all the true meanings of the mysteries enshrined within these Tablets.

"But as to Him Who appeared in the year sixty, He standeth in need of neither transformation nor interpretation, for His name was Muhammad, and He was a descendant of the Imáms of the Faith. Thus it can be truly said of Him that He was the son of Hasan, as is undoubtedly clear and evident unto thine eminence...


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