Baha'i Warrior wrote:Jonah wrote:like the heinous attacks on the Faith perpetrated by outsiders
Can you point me to any examples? Please post the URLs and describe which specific posts you think should be deleted.
Thanks, -Jonah
The user epierce on in this topic: <
http://bahai-library.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=925&start=26>:
Most Baha'is are undisciplined "spiritual junkies" when it comes time to make real sacrifices for a teaching/consolidation project. they only want the "glory", they don't want to do the "hard work".
Comment: "Most Baha'is are undisciplined 'spiritual junkies'"? Not only is this a calumnious statement, but obviously misinformed.
As usual, you are decontextualizing, distorting and misrepresenting.
(Your apparent goal is to make people conform to a version of Baha'i culture that is based on fanaticism.)
What I'm saying is that the most Baha'is are incapable of exercising proper "detachment" in the middle of a mass teaching project. This is what I was told by the leaders of such projects!
Most Baha'is have not been taught discipline, as is obvious from your posts. They can't resist the "spiritual high" from getting in the middle of a mass conversion project for selfish purposes (as well as the social status of "converting" people), and the leaders of such projects have to create "firewalls" to prevent the projects from being "polluted" by people that are acting more out of "spiritual self-gratification" than out of self-sacrifice.
The Baha'i writings warn against "attachment to the Kingdom of Names", which is basically "spiritual materialism" (I think Baba Ram Dass coined the term).
Baha'i Warrior wrote:
If it were the case that "most Baha'is" don't make "real sacrifices for a teaching/consolidation project," then how could the Baha'i Faith be one of the fastest growing world religions?
Again, you are taking my statements out of context and misrepresenting their meaning.
The pattern of fanaticism is extremely revealing.
Baha'i Warrior wrote:
(Of course this person also denies that the Baha'i Faith is one of the fastest growing world religions, despite statistics showing that it is one of the fastest growing NRMs which he ignores.)
Again, you are taking my statements out of context and misrepresenting their meaning.
The pattern of fanaticism is extremely revealing.
"world religions" != "NRM".
Whose statistics? Unless validated by a reputable outside research group, I wouldn't trust internal Baha'i statistics any further than I could throw them, there is just too much bias and fanaticism to trust them.
There are 5 million muslims in the USA, and maybe (being incredibly generous), 150,000-200,000 Baha'is.
Baha'i Warrior wrote:
These are just "fighting words," part of his campaign to slander and malign the Faith's intentions.
What I am doing is pointing out my experiences with conformism, abuses of authority, fanaticism, etc. in Bahai culture.
You have conflated "culture" with "Faith".
You don't seem to realize that the usual tacics used to internally terrorize non-conformists have no effect on people that have resigned (or, in my case, attempted to resign).
Baha'i Warrior wrote:Most of the "teaching fetish" (dysfunctional expression of the need to find "converts") is apparently caused by a groping for some answer, even a bad one, for various questions that are caused by "cognitiive dissonance" when they notice things that have internal logic, but are contradictory to some other element of the belief system.
I don't know which is more offensive: the offensive usage of the phrase "teaching fetish," or the unenlightened comments about the teaching processs.
Any competent sociologist would realize there is a "teaching fetish" after spending 15 mintes in a typical Baha'i community.
That is a direct (private) quote from a progressional Baha'i sociologist.
You apparently don't understand the "reality distortion effect" that is caused by conformism.
People will open up about all sorts of interesting things to people like me that are open non-conformists that they would never say in "public".
In any case, the incessant rhetoric about "teaching" (for non-Baha'is, "teaching" is Baha'i-speak for "getting converts") is depressing for a lot of people because of the disconnect from doing the obvious things to make the community attractive enough to either interest many people, or hold onto the ones that do convert.
The branwashing, fetishes, conformism, fanaticism, obsession with dehumanizing bureaucratic solutions instead of "getting real", etc., are the actual problems, not some non-conformists/critics pointing out the obvious problems and the inability of Baha'is to grapple with them.
Baha'i Warrior wrote:The UHJ's clear instructions to Baha'is concerning teaching and entry by troops:
"We have every encouragement to believe that large-scale enrolments will expand, involving village after village, town after town, from one country to another. However, it is not for us to wait passively for the ultimate fulfilment of Shoghi Effendi's vision. We few, placing our whole trust in the providence of God and regarding as a divine privilege the challenges which face us, must proceed to victory with the plans in hand."
In reality that is not "factually" supportive of your statement/opinion about growth statistics, and we don't even know what the overall context is anyway.
Baha'i Warrior wrote:So why tolerate or allow such scornful and damaging comments by outsiders (or even insiders) that can undermine that? A Baha'i forum is not meant to harbor such malignant views. Allowing such ideas to be expressed can only undermine this process and cause severe damage as this is quite an accessible site frequented by many seekers (and also many Baha'is, who may also be affected).
What causes the most "real" damage is when Baha'is exhibit clear and egregious fanaticism/intolerance, and engage in absurd misrepresentations of what critics and non-conformists are saying.
Baha'i Warrior wrote:Jonah: I can provide you with more quotes if that's what you want, but all the posts are basically an attack on the Baha'i Faith from someone who disenrolled and has come back to a Baha'i forum to dispute with the Baha'is.
No, I'm pointing out the existence of abuse, fanaticism and intolerance in the Bahai community. You are greatly assisting me in proving my point.
The Universal House of Justice instructed Baha'is to "contribute to integrative paradigms", that is what I'm interested in, not being attacked by narrow-minded, intolerant fanatics.
You apparently have no interest in "integrative paradigms".
Baha'i Warrior wrote:The point I'm getting at is the same as Onepence's: why let such discussions go on in a Baha'i forum?
Jonah has addressed the point quite well.
Baha'i Warrior wrote:
A Baha'i forum in most people's minds equates with a forum of Baha'i ideas/discussion of Baha'i topics, not unpleasant attacks on the Faith from those that have become somehow embittered by their ex-Baha'i communities.
—Warrior
You and onepence (Dean Hedges) simply didn't bother to read the purpose/history of this list and made assumptions that are wildly incorrect.
I hope you are starting to get some glimmer of insight into the fact that Baha'i belief is not as monolithic as you apparently have been conditioned to think.
Regards,
Eric