1000 years.

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Zazaban
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1000 years.

Postby Zazaban » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:06 pm

How do we know that will be it? I find it odd that, after almost every previous prophecy of the next Manifestation has been esortic and nobody has understood it, like the whole Elisiah thing. Why would the prophecy made by Baha'u'llah be so simple? 1000 years just seems too easy to me. Every time Specific time periods get brought up like this it's symbolic.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.
~ Bahá'u'lláh

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:00 pm

Baha'u'llah make a most clear statement. There is no ambiguity. There is no need for interpretation. It's like someone saying "I am twenty years of age. Here is my birth certificate. Anyone who disagrees is being foolish."

Besides, we have an appointed UHJ. They are the interpreters. So if there is any ambiguity, for the sake of argument, then one would ask them.

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Re: 1000 years.

Postby Hasan » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:40 pm

Zazaban wrote:How do we know that will be it? I find it odd that, after almost every previous prophecy of the next Manifestation has been esortic and nobody has understood it, like the whole Elisiah thing. Why would the prophecy made by Baha'u'llah be so simple? 1000 years just seems too easy to me. Every time Specific time periods get brought up like this it's symbolic.


There is badaa, this means God could change his mind anytime, he could do whatever he want, but we can't be responsible of rejecting next Manifestation if he appears before 1,000 years (2852AD)

Warrior, the UHJ doesn't interpret.

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Postby Dorumerosaer » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:12 pm

There are aspects of every Revelation that are hidden; that depend upon one's development and spiritual experience for a deeper understanding; that are rich in imagery. There are also aspects of each Revelation that are literal. It is quite common for the ordinary person to take literally, a passage that was intended to be understood symbolically; and to take symbolically, a passage that was intended to be understood literally.

That is why we have a divinely appointed Interpreter; who knows the difference. So it is not up to us ordinary people to sort this out for ourselves:

"Bahá'u'lláh, appointed a central authoritative Personage, declaring Him to be the expounder of the Book. This implies that the people in general do not understand the meanings of the Book, but this appointed One does understand." (Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 382)

There is no issue more clear, more direct, more explicit, than the matter of the Covenant; in this case, the Covenant concerning the next Manifestation of God. In my personal opinion, there is no more clear teaching in all of the Baha'i Writings; compiled by Shoghi Effendi in his "Dispensation" letter:

"That . . . no one else except the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh can ever lay claim to such a station before the expiration of a full thousand years -- are verities which lie embedded in the specific utterances of both the Founder of our Faith and the Interpreter of His teachings.

"'Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God,' is the express warning uttered in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, 'ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying imposter. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will no doubt forgive him. If, however, he persists in his error, God will assuredly send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible indeed is God in punishing!' 'Whosoever,' He adds as a further emphasis, "interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things." "Should a man appear," is yet another conclusive statement, "ere the lapse of a full thousand years -- each year consisting of twelve months according to the Qur'án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayan -- and if such a man reveal to your eyes all the signs of God, unhesitatingly reject him!"
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 133)

"The meaning of this is that any individual who, before the expiry of a full thousand years -- years known and clearly established by common usage and requiring no interpretation -- should lay claim to a Revelation direct from God, even though he should reveal certain signs, that man is assuredly false and an impostor." (Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 67)

So those individuals who feel that those thousand years should be taken symbolically are ignoring what the Master wrote, that they are "years known and clearly established by common usage and requiring no interpretation".

It should also be noted that Baha'u'llah has not stated that the next Manifestation will come in 1000 years.

He has stated that the next Manifestation will come in *not less than* 1000 years. Maybe it will be 5,000 years. We do not know. We only know, not sooner than 1000 years.

Human beings want to make complex, what God has made simple. And human beings want to oversimplify, what God has made profound. We should leave things as God made them.

Baha'u'llah has repeatedly written that the thousand years are literal.
Abdu'l-Baha has repeatedly written that the thousand years are literal.
Shoghi Effendi has repeatedly written that the thousand years are literal.

Nonetheless, as the Master stated, "Naturally there are some . . . who hold to their own ideas..." (Promulgation p. 382)

Brent

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Re: 1000 years.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:27 am

Hasan wrote:Warrior, the UHJ doesn't interpret.


Yes, that is right. I used the wrong word, which should have been "clarification" (or "elucidation," which is their function) but I was in a rush.

"Regarding the nature and scope of the Universal Court of Arbitration, this and other similar matters will have to be explained and elucidated by the Universal House of Justice, to which, according to the Master's explicit Instructions, all important fundamental questions must be referred.... (Bahá'í Administration, p. 47)

In a letter dated 9 March 1965, the Universal House of Justice stresses the "profound difference" that exists between the "interpretations of the Guardian and the elucidations of the House of Justice in exercise of its function to 'deliberate upon all problems which have caused difference, questions that are obscure, and matters that are not expressly recorded in the Book."' (Wellspring of Guidance, p. 52)

So you are correct. Thanks for pointing that mistake out, Hasan.

—Warrior

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:29 am

pilgrimbrent wrote:Human beings want to make complex, what God has made simple. And human beings want to oversimplify, what God has made profound. We should leave things as God made them.

Baha'u'llah has repeatedly written that the thousand years are literal.
Abdu'l-Baha has repeatedly written that the thousand years are literal.
Shoghi Effendi has repeatedly written that the thousand years are literal.

Nonetheless, as the Master stated, "Naturally there are some . . . who hold to their own ideas..." (Promulgation p. 382)

Brent


THANK YOU! :D

Zazaban
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Postby Zazaban » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:21 pm

Another interesting thing is that I have heard that the Bayan said somewhere that the next manifestation would come something like 1500-2111 B.E. or something like that.

Thanks you clairifying.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh

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Postby Dorumerosaer » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:59 pm

In the Bayan the Bab refers to the time of "Mustaghath". The numerical value of this word in the Abjad reckoning used in Persia in those days is 2001. And the Bab stated that this duration of time must elapse between Himself and "Him Whom God shall make manifest".

However, that is a dilemma only to human minds, not to the divine mind. As Nabil wrote:

"The mystery of the Mustaghath had long baffled the most searching minds among the people of the Bayan and had proved an unsurmountable obstacle to their recognition of the promised One. The Báb had Himself in that Tablet unravelled that mystery; no one, however, was able to understand the explanation which He had given. It was left to Bahá'u'lláh to unveil it to the eyes of all men."
(The Dawn-Breakers, pp. 304-305)

There are Covenant-breakers, John Carre among them, who, based on their reading of the French translation of the Bayan, and various symbolic passages in the other Baha'i Writings, have come up with a theory that there is yet a third Manifestation of God to appear. And this is simply muddying the clear waters.

In Gleanings XXX Baha'u'llah states: "...We, moreover, swear fealty to the One Who, in the time of Mustagath, is destined to be made manifest, as well as to those Who shall come after Him till the end that hath no end."

This is taken by some as an expectation by Baha'u'llah that a third Manifestation of God in this Dispensation will appear -- despite the many and explicit references that there will be no one to turn to in this Dispensation other than the Guardian and the House of Justice. This passage in Gleanings is typical of the references to the "Mustaghath" in Baha'u'llah's Writings that preceded His open Declaration: He spoke of the Mustaghath -- "The One who is invoked for help," in the 3rd person. Here is another, from the Book of Certitude, written a year or more before His Declaration in the Ridvan. All of these are references to Himself:

"We entreat the learned men of the Bayan not to follow in such ways, not to inflict, at the time of Mustaghath, upon Him Who is the divine Essence, the heavenly Light, the absolute Eternity, the Beginning and the End of the Manifestations of the Invisible, that which hath been inflicted in this day. We beg them not to depend upon their intellect, their comprehension and learning, nor to contend with the Revealer of celestial and infinite knowledge." (Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude, p. 248)

The time of His unveiling had not yet come. There is another such reference on pp. 229-230 of the same Book.

The numerical value of the letters in the word "Mustagath" total 2001. The Bab's promise of the "Mustaghath" appears in His greatest work, "The Persian Bayan." The verse where the Bab foretells the appearance of "The One Who is Invoked," i.e., "The Mustaghath," appears in Chapter 15 of the Persian Bayan. It reads:

"The Manifestation of God in every Manifestation, whereby is meant the Primal Volition, is and was *the Splendour of God*, beside whom all things are and were as naught. Whosoever believeth in a later Manifestation, it is as though he had believed in all Manifestations, former and latter, in that Manifestation. . . . None knoweth save God as to when the Manifestation shall be. But it is hoped of God's goodness that it will arrive before the [Number of] Mustaghath (2001 years). And the Proof is naught but the signs (verses) and His Being in itself, for all else than Him is known by Him, while He can be known by naught else. Glory be to God above that which they ascribe!" [The Bab, The Persian Bayan, translated by Edward Granville Browne, cited in "A Summary of the Persian Bayan," in Moojan Momen, "Selections from the Writings of E. G. Browne on the Babi and Baha'i Religions," (George Ronald: Oxford (1987), pp.347-348)]

The key to understanding the meaning of the "Mustaghath" is to realize that the original Arabic which Browne translated as "the Splendour of God" in the above verse I highlighted, is "Baha'u'llah!" Baha'u'llah Himself was the Mustaghath, and He confirmed this in His last great Work. He wrote:

"Likewise, refuting certain disbelievers, He [the Bab] saith: 'For none knoweth the time of the Revelation except God. Whenever it appeareth, all must acknowledge the Point of Truth, and render thanks unto God.' They that have turned aside from Me have spoken even as the followers of John (the Baptist) spoke. For they, too, protested against Him Who was the Spirit (Jesus) saying: 'The dispensation of John hath not yet ended; wherefore hast thou come?' Now, too, they that have repudiated Us, though they have never known Us and have been at all times ignorant of the fundamentals of this Cause, knowing not from Whom it proceeded or what it signifieth, have spoken that which hath made all created things to sigh and lament. By My life!" (Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 157)

This is a refutation of those who claim that the significance of the verse in the Bayan about the appearance of the Promised One, was that a third Manifestation would appear. In other words, the idea that the Bab and Baha'u'llah encouraged expectation of another Redeemer in the year 2001 or any other year, Mustaghath, is refuted by no less a person than Baha'u'llah Himself.

We do not rely on our personal interpretations, particularly in the area of the Covenant, and particularly when it conflicts with an authoritative interpretation. Shoghi Effendi wrote that another Manifestation is "never to reappear ere the lapse of a full millennium" (God Passes By, p. 223), and that the ascension of Baha'u'llah "brought to a definite termination the period of Divine Revelation..." (World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 143).

So again, the matter is clear.

Brent


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