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(Bab = Jesus) and (Bahaullah = Muhammad) ?

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:48 pm
by senfreern
hey you guys.. sorry for not posting for so long!

anyways, now i have a question on the Bab and Baha'u'llah..

was the bab supposed to be jesus, and baha'u'llah supposed to be Mohammad [the return] or were they simply new prophets?

I edited the title of this thread,
from "quick question" to "(Bab = Jesus) and (Bahaullah = Muhammad) ?"

- british_bahai, 5th July 2007

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:52 pm
by FruccalFrilia
The Bahai answer maybe yes to both questions. The prophecies are fufilled, but as richard pointed out the human form and individuality did not reincarnate. The return is referring to the return of the same spiritual qualities of Christ and Muhammad.

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:58 pm
by senfreern
thanks guys, now what i'm trying to ask though, is like some people think that the bab was the return of jesus. so is he, or is he a seperate prophet?

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:00 pm
by FruccalFrilia
I would say The Bab is a separate Prophet then Jesus Christ. Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah are new Prophets. All of them compare in many interesting ways, here is a highlight of some similarities between Jesus Christ and the Bab.(and one contrast)
One was born in 1817 A.D. in ancient Persia while the Other was born in Nazareth around 8-2 BCE.
there are more than a few striking similarities
Bahais believe both were Representatives of God on earth. Both traced their lineage all the way back to Abraham. Jesus was most opposed by the leaders of Judaism,the dominant religion of the region He lived, he was put on trial and eventually executed. The Bab was opposed by the leaders of Islam, the dominant religion of the region He lived in, and was put on trial and eventually executed. Both were executed at around age 30. Jesus had no permanent place to stay because of the hatred of His enemies, the Bab was arrested and transferred to different prision locations.
The Muslims expected the return of the Mahdi to be based on a literal reading of prophecy, the same with the Jews expecting Jesus to fufill all the extraordinary prophecies in a literal sense.

The Bab says when foretelling a greater Revelation to come
"I am a letter out of that most might book and a dew-drop from that limitless ocean, and, when He shall appear, my true nature, my mysteries, riddles, and intimations will become evident, and the embryo of this religion shall develop through the grades of its being and ascent, attain to the station of `the most comely of forms,' and become adorned with the robe of `blessed be God, the Best of Creators."

Jesus proclaims Another Revelation,
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now"

Jesus says
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

The Bab says
You who are His spiritual children must by your deeds exemplify His virtues, and witness to His glory. You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt have lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? Such must be the degree of your detachment....

The Bab says
"Bless me, O my God, and those who will believe in Thy signs on the appointed Day, and such as cherish my love in their hearts—a love which Thou dost instil into them."

Jesus says
"Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love."

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:36 am
by Baha'i Warrior
Baha'u'llah returned in spiritual fulfillment of the prophesies of Christ. He returns in spiritual fulfillment of others too, like Maitreya (5th Buddha), Krishna for Hindus, etc. Since Baha'u'llah is the "Sender of the Messengers," His station is above them all, and that is why He can return as all of these awaited persons in one Person. He isn't literally Christ Himself. His station is much higher.

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:15 pm
by Baha'i Warrior
While these words are purported to be Muhammad's and are cited many times by Muslims, including the "seal of the prophets" verse in the Koran, His sermon is still in conformity with the concept that God always sends men "prophets"—or at least the sermon doesn't contradict this fact. Again, Baha'u'llah is first and foremost a "Manifestation of God," a station much exalted above that of prophet, apostle, or messenger. The idea of progressive revelation is further underscored by hadith prophesying the return of the Mahdi and a new Revelation.

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:52 am
by FruccalFrilia
These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: "No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers."

"The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: "Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit."
I think Bahai Warrior is referring to the ending of the Prophetic Cycle. Where in the Prophetic cycle Prophets and Messengers teachings were enough to guide humans, But now owing to the greater capacity and maturity of humanity a fuller Revelation of God's Divine Grace has been revealed, requiring the Manifestations of God. Of course the Source, God, has not changed. ... aha06.html

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:37 am
by FruccalFrilia
Actually the terminology and concepts are from Bahai sources not me. The first two paragraphs are Baha'u'llah speaking. I'm still researching (slowly) these things myself.
Thanks for reminding us that the Spirit behind the Law is essential. The different degrees of the unfolding Law are recorded in the histories of the Bible, Quran, and even the Hindu writings. They also acknowledge the essential unity of God.

yugas=periods of history or world ages: "One set of duties (is prescribed) for men in the Krta Yuga; a different one in the Treta Yuga, and in the Dvapara, and another yet in the Kali Yuga" (Manusmriti 1.185).
"Truth is One, but sages call it by many names.."
-Rig Veda

"The Tree (Asvattha) of Eternity has roots in heaven and branches that grow down to earth. It is Brahman; it is pure Spirit. It is called the Immortal. All the worlds rest on that and beyond it none can go.."
-Katha Upanishad

I think the Tree can represent the station of the the the Will of God or the Word/Holy Spirit and in some sense the Messengers of God since the Messengers are the perfect Representation of the Will of God. Perhaps the Branches of the Tree are the different Messengers.

The Essence of God is impossible to even comprehend, we can essentially, only learn from the Divine Teachers who perfectly represent Gods Will/Word/Holy Spirit.

"Though You [Brahman] are the Absolute, indivisible and eternal, understood only by intuition, adored by saints, though I know and speak of that form of yours, yet I always turn back from it and spend my love on the Absolute made man [i.e. the Avatar]!"
-Das, Aranyakanda

One unique position of Baha'u'llah is that He is calling all people to recognize the Unity of the Messengers another is that He can finally, to a greater degree, represent God's Will and attributes, which because of humanity's immaturity couldnt be fully revealed in the past.

"Lo, the Nightingale of Paradise[Baha'u'llah] singeth upon the twigs of the Tree of Eternity(the Will of God and the Station of Messengers), with holy and sweet melodies, proclaiming to the sincere ones the glad tidings of the nearness of God, calling the believers in the Divine Unity(abstract Unity of the Prophets) to the court of the Presence of the Generous One, informing the severed ones of the message which hath been revealed by God, the King, the Glorious, the Peerless, guiding the lovers to the seat of sanctity and to this resplendent Beauty.."
-Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Ahmad

To grow spiritually requires harmony with the Will of God. Baha'u'llah is imparting us this knowledge so we can hopefully further our spiritual development.
"I bear witness O my God, that Thou has created me to know Thee and to worship Thee..."
-Bahai Prayer

Anyway hope this doesnt confuse the issue. Just trying to grasp, however inadequately, a part of the framework of Gods Message.

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:55 am
by Baha'i Warrior
richard wrote:BW, at this point in time, if i were to join any formal religious group, it would be the Baha'i Faith because of the very rich spiritual truths in the teachings. However, these truths are universal and unified in the Spirit of our One and Only God of All who supports the spiritual truths and goodness of all religions, but is a member of none.

God "is a member of none," true, but that's because He is God. However, we are men, and His religion is intended for men. Though His station is much higher than and not comparable to any of ours, 'Abdu'l-Baha was indeed a Baha'i.

richard wrote:Also, as you would probably face grief from your Baha'i Faith family and friends if you joined any other religious group, i too would face that fate, and many others face the same potential problem in this world, thus, i think we are evolving and progressing towards a one world religion rooted in spiritualized thinking, thoughts, feelings, words, and deeds directly revealed to our souls by our One and Only God.

That is true, that I'd "probably face grief from" Baha'i family/friends if I joined another Faith, but that technically shouldn't happen since Baha'is are to uphold tolerance for others' beliefs. We are all investigating our whole lives. But I think if one decides to do such a thing, he should be able to produce a good reason for the switch. For example, if he is in college, makes some friends with cult members and they take him away to a commune and brainwash him, then there should definitely be some concern there on the part of parents at least. Or, if a child wants to join the Church of Satan, you should figure out if he has a reason other than rebellion, stemming from a teenage identity crisis perhaps. If anyone reading this post thinks I'm wrong, let me know.

Yes, you would probably face the same fate, Richard. But the costs are high for all of us. Sometimes, as it did (and still does) in Iran, it cost you your life (I have a relative who was executed for being a Baha'i). You are likely to face discrimination here if you are looking for a job and are a Baha'i (depending on the job). Of course, we are encouraged to use wisdom in these situations.

But we have talked about "free will" Richard. I respect your decision if you don't want to become a Baha'i, and indeed no one should join unless he is 110% certain that he wants to.