Kashf-al-Ghita (the Bahai Response to 'Nuqtatul-Kaf')

All research or scholarship questions
BruceDLimber
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Re: An Important Persian Book

Postby BruceDLimber » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:56 am

Hi!

There are indeed other Baha'i sources that confirm that the Nuqtatu'l Kaf was a forgery and in no way reflected the true Babi Faith!

And World Order Magazine has carried articles stating this.

Regards,

Bruce

British_Bahai
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Postby British_Bahai » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:01 pm

Bruce - Please post some good links (thanks)

BruceDLimber
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Postby BruceDLimber » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:16 am


Allah-u-Abha!

british_bahai wrote:Bruce - Please post some good links (thanks)


I can do better than that!

Here's a brief excerpt from a single article, where the discussion is about an enemy of the Faith (Miller) who's using the Nuqtatu'l Kaf as a "reliable source":

[quote]
... [T]he principal source used for this period (apart from
Mr. Azal) is an extraordinary manuscript produced by unknown writers
some time between 1852 and 1863, under the title NUQTATU'L KAF.(21)
In his study on the work of Professor Browne, Mr. Balyuzi has
demonstrated the unreliability of this strange melange of historical
narrative, superstition, nihilistic thought, and naive partisan
propaganda. He also rescues the reputation of Mirza Jani, the
merchant and Babi martyr whose name and memoirs were misused by the compilers of the work.(22) For a modern writer to discuss the
subject, therefore, would again have required coming to grips with the
argument contained in the Balyuzi critique. The challenge is
particularly acute for Rev. Miller, as the thesis of the section of
his book which deals with the Babi period rests squarely on the
authenticity of the KAF manuscript. Rev. Miller seems aware of the
seriousness of the problem, but the one lengthy footnote which he
devotes to the Balyuzi study is both superficial and essentially off
the topic.(23) Ignoring the obstacle, he simply attributes the
manuscript to Mirza Jani and asserts that it is "the earliest and best
history" of the Babi movement.(24)

[footnotes]
(21) The title means literally "The Point of Kaf," (that is, the
letter "K"). It is no longer possible to determine the reason why this
strange title was given to the manuscript.

(22) In his TARIKH-I-JADID, published in 1893, Professor Browne had
included a translation of excerpts from the writings of the noted
Persian scholar Mirza Abu'l Fadl, who had studied an original copy of
the memoirs of Mirza Jani. Mr. Balyuzi now published the further
statement of Mirza Abu'l-Fadl that the manuscript which appeared in an
English translation in 1910 under the title KITAB-I-NUQTATU'L-KAF was
a forgery (Balyuzi, EDWARD GRANVILLE BROWNE, pp. 70-73).

(23) Miller, pp. 111-13, n. 44. The note includes the extraordinary
statement: "Whether, therefore, the book published by Browne [i.e.,
the NUQTATU'L-KAF] was written entirely by Mirza Jani before his death
in 1852, or whether others wrote the book after the death of Mirza
Jani and gave his name to it, the NUQTATU'L-KAF is by far the earliest
account in our possession.

(24) Miller, p. 21.
[end quote]

Source:

THE MISSIONARY AS HISTORIAN:
William Miller and the Baha'i Faith

A review of William McElwee Miller's
THE BAHA'I FAITH: ITS HISTORY AND TEACHINGS
(S. Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 1974), 358 pp., appendices, index.

by Douglas Martin
[from World Order Magazine, Spring, 1976]

This article is also available at:

http://www.bahai-library.org/articles/bs.4.miller.html

BruceDLimber
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Re: More about Nuqtat-al Kaf

Postby BruceDLimber » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:41 pm

golha wrote: Nuqtat-ul Kaf ...( was written by Haji Mirza Jani of Kashan one of the seven persons who were martyred in Tehran in horrific circumstances. His book covers the first eight years of the Babi movement and is considered to be the earliest and most trustworthy account of the events during this period.


wrong, Wrong, WRONG!!!

It is a known forgery!

See the quote I posted above.

And Baha'is don't "suppress" books, please note.

Just the facts.

Bruce

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Re: More about Nuqtat-al Kaf

Postby hugobjzq » Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:38 am

Bruce, I'm glad to know that "Baha'is don't suppress books". The Catholics, the Mormons, the Lutherans, every religion I can think of suppressed books, also changed and edited their history to try to cover up negative things or contradictions. Glad to know that "Baha'is" don't do this!!

By the way...when will the Bayan, in its fulness, be published by the Baha'is? I am told, Never. When will ANY of the volumnous writing of Quddus be published. I'm told..."NEVER". When will the Bab's greatest work, the Qayyulmat'l-Asma, His "Qu'ran", be published. Again...never will be. Why not? We're told because "It is not necessary" to publish them. Baha'is might get "confused" by these works.

I will remind you of what was said in Baha'i history, official Baha'i history, about the death of Sub-i-Azal, that nobody, not even his sons, attended his funeral. But, in fact, I've seen published photographs of his funeral, and many hundreds, included his Cypriot dignitaries, attended.

There is a REASON why the full Bayan and the writing of Quddus will NEVER be published by Haifa. But if I told you, I would be banned from the Forum forever.....which is another way to "suppress" information not liked. True, but not liked.



BruceDLimber wrote:
golha wrote: Nuqtat-ul Kaf ...( was written by Haji Mirza Jani of Kashan one of the seven persons who were martyred in Tehran in horrific circumstances. His book covers the first eight years of the Babi movement and is considered to be the earliest and most trustworthy account of the events during this period.


wrong, Wrong, WRONG!!!

It is a known forgery!

See the quote I posted above.

And Baha'is don't "suppress" books, please note.

Just the facts.

Bruce

British_Bahai
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Re: More about Nuqtat-al Kaf

Postby British_Bahai » Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:56 am

Darrick_Evenson wrote:There is a REASON why the full Bayan and the writing of Quddus will NEVER be published by Haifa. But if I told you, I would be banned from the Forum forever.....which is another way to "suppress" information not liked. True, but not liked.

What do you think the reason is? Im sure Jonah wont ban you...

BruceDLimber
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Re: More about Nuqtat-al Kaf

Postby BruceDLimber » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:34 am

The Writings of the Bab, which are Babi scripture, are relatively less important to Baha'is because they're mostly superceded by Baha'i law and Writings. They may well be translated fully someday, but clearly aren't a priority right now.

Whatever Quddus wrote isn't (and can't be) Baha'i scripture, anyway! IF you're so hot to have this in English, feel free to translate it or to commission a translation. Personally, in 36 years as a Baha'i, I've never heard that he wrote much of anything, anyway. Perhaps he did, but if so, it's still of only secondary importance.

Also, your complete failure to address my point above has been duly noted.

And frankly, it would be really, REALLY nice, Darrick, to see, JUST ONCE, a post from you about the Baha'i Faith that isn't merely a complaint or other put-down!

I fear you're a true Johnny-one-note.

Peace,

Bruce

iqtTcgUSh

Publishing of the Bab's writings

Postby iqtTcgUSh » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:48 am

It is best not to rely on the mistaken statements of Baha'is who do not know what they are talking about, nor on your own memory of partially understood responses to your questions. I have no doubt whatsoever that the writings of the Bab will all be published in time. The World Centre is working on some of them now and new excerpts will appear. My educated guess is that the question you asked was why they aren't published in their entirety right now. The response that Baha'u'llah's writings are most important at this time is undoubtedly true. But I don't think any thoughtful Baha'i would, for a minute, think that the Persian Bayan or the Qayyumu'l-Asma will "never" be translated and published. It is simply an absurd and foolish statement to make. After all, non-Baha'is have already done some translations (for example Nicolas's translations of the Bayans into French).

BruceDLimber
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Re: Publishing of the Bab's writings

Postby BruceDLimber » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:14 am

The "big deal" being made over the Bab's Writings not having been fully translated to English also completely ignores the glaring fact that these workss are--and have ALWAYS been--available in the original languages, and that there are many Baha'is (and others) who have read them in those tongues!

Bruce

dyesneancyDex
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Postby dyesneancyDex » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:10 am

good point. I would love to be able to read many of the Bab's writings or for that matter any of the early Babi's.

But, i know how hard it is to translate. I would think that it would be a better use of resources to translate Baha'u'allah's work first.

which could take a hundred years or more.

dyesneancyDex
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Postby dyesneancyDex » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:28 am

although i would like to read the "ligtning flash" and the "thunderbolt" from Mulla Muhammad Ali.

but, who am i to ask.

BruceDLimber
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Postby BruceDLimber » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:56 am

someone wrote:good point. I would love to be able to read many of the Bab's writings or for that matter any of the early Babi's.

But, i know how hard it is to translate. I would think that it would be a better use of resources to translate Baha'u'allah's work first.


Precisely why the translators at the World Center are primarily concentrating on translating Baha'u'llah's works (three more of which came out in the recent past)!

As to "the Lightning Flash" and "the Thunderbolt," someday, perhaps! . . . :-)

Best,

Bruce

British_Bahai
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Re: More about Nuqtat-al Kaf

Postby British_Bahai » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:06 pm

Darrick_Evenson wrote:There is a REASON why the full Bayan and the writing of Quddus will NEVER be published by Haifa. But if I told you, I would be banned from the Forum forever.....which is another way to "suppress" information not liked. True, but not liked.

What makes you so sure ?

For example, the Kitab-i-aqdas was only recently translated into English
(25?? years ago)

British_Bahai
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Postby British_Bahai » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:43 pm

I forgot to add, some parts of the Bayan have been translated into English

I bought my copy for £4.95 (so its cheap to buy)

details:
Selections from the writings of the bab (softcover edition)
ISBN(10) 0-87743-311-9
ISBN(13) 978-0-87743-311-8


and it DOES contain a chunky chapter of excerpts from the Qayumulasma (pages 51-95)
and excerpts from the Bayan (pages 99-146)

British_Bahai
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Re: Publishing of the Bab's writings

Postby British_Bahai » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:53 pm

BruceDLimber wrote:The "big deal" being made over the Bab's Writings not having been fully translated to English also completely ignores the glaring fact that these workss are--and have ALWAYS been--available in the original languages, and that there are many Baha'is (and others) who have read them in those tongues!

Bruce

oh wow, i didnt know that
(i thought that they WERENT available to anyone in any language)

problem solved then...

Jonah
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Re: More about Nuqtat-al Kaf

Postby Jonah » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:54 pm

Darrick_Evenson wrote:There is a REASON why the full Bayan and the writing of Quddus will NEVER be published by Haifa. But if I told you, I would be banned from the Forum forever....


Darrick, please feel free to post your reasons. We have *only* banned people who posted attacks, pornography, spam, etc. We only delete posts if they "undermine the covenant," i.e. dispute the authority of the Institutions, or if someone posts the same item repeatedly.

-Jonah

British_Bahai
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Re: More about Nuqtat-al Kaf

Postby British_Bahai » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:29 pm

**********************************************************
Jonah wrote:
Darrick_Evenson wrote:There is a REASON why the full Bayan and the writing of Quddus will NEVER be published by Haifa. But if I told you, I would be banned from the Forum forever....


Darrick, please feel free to post your reasons. We have *only* banned people who posted attacks, pornography, spam, etc. We only delete posts if they "undermine the covenant," i.e. dispute the authority of the Institutions, or if someone posts the same item repeatedly.

-Jonah

I STILL CAN'T SEE WHAT THE BIG DEAL IS

The full Bayan IS available in full, but in arabic (which means they're not hiding anything).
All it needs is a translation, thats all.


SEE BELOW:

british_bahai wrote:
BruceDLimber wrote:The "big deal" being made over the Bab's Writings not having been fully translated to English also completely ignores the glaring fact that these workss are--and have ALWAYS been--available in the original languages, and that there are many Baha'is (and others) who have read them in those tongues!

Bruce

oh wow, i didnt know that
(i thought that they WERENT available to anyone in any language)

problem solved then...


**********************************************************

Jonah
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Postby Jonah » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:56 pm

sent to me by Ivan Lloyd for posting:


If I may comment on the recent statement about the translation of the Bayan and the commentaries by Quddus.

It may be a little hasty to make the statement "The translations will never be made" unless we're privvy to the inner workings of the Baha'i Administration's transalation policy. In which case, I'd venture to say, one might not draw that conclusion.

I imagine one of the people who could address this question, with a certain degree of authority, is the greatly respected translator Ahang Rabbani. Who has access to many untranslated documents that, for many generations, his family have been entrusted to protect for safekeeping.
He has a website http://ahang.rabbani.googlepages.com/nasir which has recently published some eyewitness accounts from the Battle of Ft. Tabrasi and Vahid's adventures, among many others.

I shared my concern with him, a month or two ago, that in many palces these accounts differed in detail from Nabil's narrative in the Dawn- Breakers. His reply may be relevant to your discussion as he said that Nabil's Narrative will always be regarded, among translators, as Sacred Text and that while new translations are made it is natural to discover discrepensies.
as much of Nabil's work was done during a time of great turmoil and upheaval, sometimes using second hand accounts, while these are new translations from eyewitness accounts.

He added that everything will eventually be translated, but their are decades of work ahead for translators and what we have available today is just a fraction of the story. Naturally such work is entrusted to a few dedicated believers whose only desire is to be as faithfull as they can to the original text. I'm left with the impression that everyone's motives are honorable, especially in light of the incredible valor of those dedicated Babi's.

Ivan

dyesneancyDex
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Postby dyesneancyDex » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:19 pm

He has a website http://ahang.rabbani.googlepages.com/nasir which has recently published some eyewitness accounts from the Battle of Ft. Tabrasi and Vahid's adventures, among many others

cool :D

time for the printer to do it's thing.

dyesneancyDex
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Postby dyesneancyDex » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:33 pm

He added that everything will eventually be translated

you can drink the entire ocean, but it will take a loooong time and will require a real good saline filter.


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