Page 1 of 1

God?

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:34 am
by Kurt Kawohl
The concept of God has been misinterpreted by many religions due to their
desire to promote their own agenda and politics and has over time become
something other than spirituality. God has never & will never interfere in
the physical affairs of man.

Thought is an active idea, a concept, a product of the mind; a concrete
manifestation that the passive or unconscious mind generates. Thoughts are
embodied elemental energies. Energies of nature are known to us only by
their effects. The human brain does not create thoughts, it only transmits
them, because the human brain is but the vehicle transmitting intellectual,
mental, and emotional energy from the monadic center within, and this
monadic center itself originates thought.

Inspiration is the reception of knowledge, an influence on the mind or
consciousness. Millions of radio waves traverse our world daily via being
transmitted and received. Is the mind possibly able to receive inspiration
from a spiritual source and can the mind possibly transmit its data into
another dimension? Logic disputes this.

If we look at some hypothetical questions:

1. Psychology is an attempt at logic, but does the analytical approach more
often produce or stifle creativity?

A. example: psychologists 200 years ago would have completely rejected the
ideas that:
1. several tons of steel (an airplane) could stay afloat in the air.
2. Electricity could be harnessed.
3. Radio waves could be sent around the world.
4. Man would walk on the moon.
5. Man would travel to other planets.
6. Machines could analyze data and correctly store it better than man.

2. Will man 200 years from today be able to:
1. Harness the power of the atom to produce all of its required energy?
2. Disassemble and reassemble atoms into another area?
3. Find a mode of travel faster than light?
4. understand the string theory, black holes, the existence of several
dimensions?
5. Utilize thought transference?

Today, over 100 planets are known outside our solar system. There are
billions of stars with numerous solar systems. Our knowledge of the universe
is in its infancy. We have learned recently that up to 95% of the Universe
is made of a type of matter or energy that we cannot see nor understand.
Gravity may ripple across the universe in waves, and certain cosmic rays,
atomic particles moving at near light speed, possess an energy far greater
than that which can be explained by modern physics.

Will we eventually be able to prove the existence of spiritual interaction
with another dimension? I can only relate to my spiritual experiences and
testify to their accuracy. It was like a burst of energy...an immensely
puzzling and physically draining experience; the mind then attempted to
reassemble this interaction, wherefrom I perceived was how most religions
were started. Was this an illusion or an interaction with a cosmic spiritual
consciousness; a united spiritual intelligence, God? You will have your
opinions and I have mine.

See my spiritual experiences at http://transcendentalists.org

Namaste,
Kurt Kawohl

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:47 am
by Kurt Kawohl
The spirit, when the mind is in mental stasis, can at times connect with the Supreme Spirit, as evidenced by God’s messengers. (Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Ahmad, Bahá’u’lláh, etc.) The mind's ability to interpret this connection and messages is often deficient, hence we have the creation of various religions.

Please peruse the Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam. http://www.alislam.org/books/philosophy/index.html
In The Philosophy of the Oaths of the Holy Qur’an paragraph 7 & 8 state:

As six hundred years had passed after the time of Jesus, and no recipient of revelation had appeared during the interval. The whole world had been corrupted. The history of every country shows that before the advent of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, falsehood had become current throughout the world. Why did this happen? This happened because divine revelation had been held back for a long time and the kingdom of heaven had fallen into the hands of human reason alone. No one is unaware of the corruption in which the people were involved by following defective reason. Thus when the rain of revelation did not descend for a period, the water of reason dried up.

So in these oaths God Almighty draws attention to this firm and eternal law of nature and calls for reflection upon it that all the vegetation of the earth depends upon the water of heaven. Thus, for the hidden law that governs divine revelation the obvious law of nature is a witness. Then try to derive benefit from the testimony of this witness and do not make reason alone your guide, for it is not a water that can continue without heavenly water. As it is a characteristic of heavenly water that it pulls up the water of all the wells, whether it falls directly into a well or not, in the same way, when a recipient of divine revelation appears in the world then, whether a wise person follows him or not, reason is illumined and clarified to a degree not witnessed before. People begin to search for the truth and their faculty of reflection is stirred up from the unseen. Thus, all this upsurge of reason and of the heart is initiated by the blessed advent of the recipient of divine revelation and the waters of the earth are pulled up by it. So, when you find that everyone has started a search for religion and an upsurge has stirred earthly waters, then rise up and be warned and know for certain that heavy rain has fallen from heaven and that the water of divine revelation has fallen upon a human heart.

----------------
Baha'u'llah's message is, at its root, simple: God is one, all religions are one because they all were established by God's Messengers and humanity is one. Individually, our purpose in life is to acquire perfections, or spiritual qualities, so that when we die we might "ascend" to the next world in a state of purity and enjoy closeness with God. Collectively, this is the time for humanity to finally achieve the dream of world unity and world peace.

Philosophy is a desire to ascertain a person’s perception of particular events. The more seemingly facts one acquires of a particular unknown the more questions develop. Is our part in the universe played out when we die physically or is there maybe another dimension wherein our thought processes are accumulated and stored for future references and which can also be used as inspirations for mankind? Let us assume the existence of a collective knowledge and call it the progressive and accumulative spiritual intelligence of the universe. Is this what mankind has possibly misinterpreted for several millennia as being God?

What is the purpose of our lives? We should live our life to its fullest. One hundred years from now almost every single person alive today will have died. Several billion people, wiped off the face of this earth. Our life is but a blip on the radar screen of time.

Let us hope that man will eventually progress intellectually and evolve to a point whereby he can socialize with totally eliminated tendencies for barbarianism and without fanaticism; This would be true enlightenment.

Kurt Kawohl
http://transcendentalists.org

http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/wi ... urt+kawohl

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:04 pm
by Kurt Kawohl
Islam, Bahaism, Sikhism and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Communities could combine their resources and be the leaders of a new vision of unity. Yet it is ironic that these four faiths that have been founded by the latest messengers of God battle amongst themselves for the right to be the correct one.

God

Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:26 pm
by janine
hi Kurt,

I am taken aback about your idea that the Bahais and the Sikhs and the Amayadihs battle for the right of being the correct ones.

I am not battling with the others, and I am a bahai. Nor are the institutions of the Bahai faith battling with these others.

They simply have their view on things and we have ours. There will be times in the future where you will see that Sikhs, Amayyadihs and Bahais are involved in one single project, probably something to do with social and economic development. That you do not see that yet happening is simply because Bahais lack money, time and enough people.
As we feel strongly about the Bahai principles, we are focussing most of our energy now to build up strong Bahai communities. There are about 6 million people on the world who are Bahai, and the total population of the world amounts to 6 billion. You can see that we are still quite a minority, though very wide spread, all over the world.

A lot of what Bahais do is done in their free time, and most of us have a job besides doing the tasks that need to be done to keep our own organisation going. Quite a few have children and a full time job and do things for the Bahai faith as well.

So I do not think your comment is a fair one. ideally it would be lovely, at this moment I do not think it is practically possible.

wishing you well,

janine

God

Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:38 pm
by janine
Kurt wrote:

Let us assume the existence of a collective knowledge and call it the progressive and accumulative spiritual intelligence of the universe. Is this what mankind has possibly misinterpreted for several millennia as being God?

What is the purpose of our lives? We should live our life to its fullest. One hundred years from now almost every single person alive today will have died. Several billion people, wiped off the face of this earth. Our life is but a blip on the radar screen of time.

Let us hope that man will eventually progress intellectually and evolve to a point whereby he can socialize with totally eliminated tendencies for barbarianism and without fanaticism; This would be true enlightenment.


Janine writes:
I can only share my own understanding and insight, which is fallible of course. This is part of it:
there has always been in me a knowing that God existed. I did not always know what to think of Him or how to picture the Great Being, but that there was a Great Being was beyond doubt.

There is a collective knowledge, I am sure of that as well. However, that to me is part of God. The universe is but an emanation of God. All that is created is but an emanation of God.

What God is I do not know. The Great Being, the Instigator of creation, Love, Truth, Purity, they are all but names. Baha'u'llah teaches that we will never be able to comprehend God, we simply do not have the capacity. Just like we do not have the capacity to look directly, without any other means to protect our eyes, into the sun. We will become blind if we did so. To meet the essence of God would annihilate us, which is not what God wants, so Baha'u'llah assures us.

I believe Baha'u'llah speaks truth, in that His words are closest to Reality, as closest as we can get at this stage in the development of humankind.
I do not expect others to accept Baha'u'llah. Each have to go their own journey. I can only share what I see and percieve as being Truth, as being Reality.
For me life has been a quest in search of Truth. It still is. I have come to accept certain things about God in the process, not saying that what I understand about God is truth. Just saying that it feels very correct to me, that it chimes in with other things. Some things though I had to take on trust, without that it chimed in me. One was for example that God loved all of us. Baha'u'llah says so, many Manifestations say so. It took a while for me before I decided to go with that. Now it has become a knowing, I have seen proof of that in my life. One can also see proof of the opposite if one wants. Which teaches us that our perception never encompasses the whole and can be faulty.

much love,

janine

Inspiration

Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:45 pm
by Janine
Kurt wrote in a post about inspiration.

I do believe in spiritual inspiration, and I do believe that there is a dialogue going on between God and humanity and God and individuals.
It is difficult to prove these things. At this moment at least they are points of belief.

I was born with a distinct knowledge that there is a God. I have tried to outlogic myself in this belief. I did everything I could to disprove this knowledge. I could not get rid of it. to me it is clear that there is a Great Being, an Originator, and that He is omnipotent, and wise.
No matter what others will say, they will never be able to convince me tht there is no Great Being.
But that I have this knowledge, have had certain dreams and inspirations, epiphanies, are no proof at all to another person. They are mere anecdotes to another person, who may think of them what they may.

I have learned to live with that... ;o)

wishing you well,

janine

Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:39 pm
by Kurt Kawohl
Greetings Janine. That was very beautifully & intelligently paraphrased.

May your life's journey bring you much happiness.

Namaste,
Kurt

P.S. Please see my spiritual experiences at http://transcendentalists.org

Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:51 pm
by Guest
Hi,

Your post is very interesting. And very similiar to how I viewed the world before becoming a Bahai. but I still felt empty and missing something. Easily hurt by others when all they wanted was to "live life to its fullest."

Bahai faith came in and said to me that I was supposed to praise and worship God. That this life was the trainig ground for my soul. Somethings make sense to people and that made my Heart soar. It made hardship and sickness, pain and even regret, trial and lesson from God. To bring us closer to God. A blessing from God. Albeit I still avoid those hardships as best I can:)

Ever see a movie called "What the Bleep?" It talks about a lot of what your talking about here. Different dimmensions, space and dark matter. The center of Atoms being absolutely nothing. It fuses physics with Faith in such a way that for me it was eye opening. I was not a Bahai when I saw it but within 4 months I became one:)

For me "Living life to its fullest" is vacant and obviously not satisfying for me. Its not the life here:) Even intellect is a physical manifestation. And can be coveted as an attachment that can weigh our progress down to me.

But saying that knowledge is SOOO important. Investigation of the truth for yourself is of the utmost importance.

Mat

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:37 am
by Kurt Kawohl
Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be wrong. Logic dictates that spiritual interaction is only possible between the Spirit of God and the spirit of man; claims of supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not rational.

Spirituality is an interaction of the spirit of man with the Spirit of God. This interaction was often expanded upon by followers who added their own interpretations and gradually the original message was skewed to meet the agenda of the newly formed religion. Most religions today are composed of so much added on garbage to a point where they are the culmination of their own politics and have lost the original meaning of spirituality. True spirituality and a true God is self-sufficient and requires nothing from mankind.

If the medieval practices and the medieval beliefs of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that are based on superstitions were eliminated, then we could start building a rational and logical belief system that is based on truth and an understanding of spirituality. This is the value of truthfulness and rationality. When one is convinced of the existence of spirituality then one must ask which events are believable. A deity who came out of nowhere caused catastrophes, punishes people and who created the universe out of nothing as if by magic or a so-called deity comprised of a spiritual unity of souls or spirits; the Ultimate Purity consisting of Pure Intelligence, Pure Logic, the Supreme Spirit that guides the development of the universe

By pointing out a flaw and reason for terrorism and violence in the name of religion, my main intent is to make people aware of the futility and intellectual gullibility of societies which have not progressed their beliefs since the Middle Ages. Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Krishna, Bahá'u'lláh, Zoroaster, Ahmad, Nanak and many others of various faiths are believed to have achieved spiritual enlightenment by mastering the art of spiritual transcendence. Is this spiritual transcendence a possibility? My assessment thereof is in the affirmative as a result of my own personal spiritual experiences.

God Proclaims:

I am God, the God from the beginning of God. I did not come from nowhere. I play no magic tricks on man. I did not create the earth by casting spells.

I had a humble beginning the same as man, yet my beginning was at the dawn of spirituality.

My wisdom grows as more spirits unite after the cessation of life after much physical strife.

Throughout time I have been named God, Allah, Jehovah, The Great Spirit, and many more.

I do not judge man for his vanity or naivety to be the one who claims to please me the most.

I am easy to please. I require very little. I only want you to do what is best for mankind.

I will bless you and wish you well. I will inspire your mind and you will accomplish the unfathomable.

I require no worship. I need nothing from man. I am self sufficient. I am spirit.

Develop your spirit wisely, the best that you can. Live your life for the betterment of man.

Your spirit will soon be with me and then together we will:

See and traverse the universe. There are many wonders to behold.

Your spirit will soar. You will partake in all the wisdom that been gathered from the beginning of time. The stars will be your playground.

You can play with the animals, be with your loved ones, listen to the greatest opera, stage or musical performances, or simply relax next to a bubbling brook and enjoy the scenery.

You feel no pain, despair, heartache, or negative emotions.

You are now One with me, you are with God my child.

Namaste,
Kurt
http://transcendentalists.org

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:09 am
by Guest
Hi Kurt,

I didnt mean any contention actually. Your philosophy has spriitual truth in it. And your path is yor path.

My view was from your comment on living your life to the fullest. This catch phrase has allowed many wonderful humans to debase there souls to such an extent that they desire nothing else but what this world can satisfy in them.

It is a license for to much destructive and distractive behavior.

As far as God needing anything. Being a Bahai, I dont believe God is at all knowable. Believing he is knowable is to lessen and constrain an infinite and timeless spirit. Without beginning and without end.

I also believe that faith is about cultivating unity. That faith has no room for contention. Agreement and simliarities should be highlited and promoted. And differences seen for what they really are, small, insiginificant, easily resolved.

So your beliefs and mine have a lot in common:)

Mat

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:53 pm
by Kurt Kawohl
Greetings Mat,

“Living your life to the fullest”, IMHO means living a moral, decent life that experiences the wonders of the universe. This allows the spirit to expand its knowledge so that it can contribute toward the intellectual expansion of the God which is pure energy, the progressive, collective pure spiritual intellect, the “Union of Spirits of the Spiritual Realm”.

I agree that faith is about cultivating unity.

The phrase, “faith has no room for contention” though, is contradictory to your well-worded and correctly stated, “Agreements and similarities should be highlighted and promoted, and differences should be seen for what they really are, small, insignificant, easily resolved”.

Many philosophers and I highly respect and agree with most of the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh. I believe that with a few minor changes, Bahaism could be the uniting force of “all” religions. IMHO, Einstein’s statement is applicable more so to Bahaism rather than Buddhism wherein he said, ““The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity”.

Please see my spiritual experiences at http://transcendentalists.org

Namaste,
Kurt

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:39 pm
by Guest
You are right that is poorly phrased on my part:)

My meaning, as I suspect you gathered, is not that of exclusive rights or to so called only authority. That is up to you to decide with your own personal investigations hand in hand with scientific evidence.

My meaning is more simple less broad then that. I do not want to cause or infer any kind of arguement or contention when the talk or discussion of faith comes up. I dont believe that is a place the discussion of faith can be promoted.

I struggle with this sometimes. but I trust in God that I am improving:)

And your definition of "living your life to the fullest" Is much more inline with mine. Since our "life" is our soul to me:) Then living your life with detachment and with the gathering of as much "soul" food as possible to grow and advance is theultimate goal.

I choose to follow the Bahai faith for that reason. For my spiritual food. I recieved so much love from the writings and understanding I never achieved before since reading the writings. I understood other relgions better. then the personal relationships with my fellow Bahai's has been tremendous. Add to it the purpose I feel now. And the path I can lead my children down. I have so much more life now in servitude to my fellow man and Bahaullah then I ever had with my own notions.

But I do not believe my way is the only way. And without other opinion my advancement woudl eventually stall. I learn from everyones opinion.

As far as God not needing anything. that may be true I dont know God, but I have an idea of what he cant be. He can't be humble in my opinion. And that is the gift I wish to give to thank him for my life and my soul. And the nourishment God gives me through the words of the Bab, Bahaullah, Abdul Baha, and Shoghi Effendi, and so many others. thats how I see my servitude. Its not about doing things for other poeple to feel good about myself or get into a higher place int he next life but thankfulness.

The more I thank God the more I feel rewarded in my soul.

Mat

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:24 pm
by Kurt Kawohl
That is wonderful testimonial, Mat. May God continue to bless you daily.

Kurt

Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:08 pm
by NewToTheForum
To: Kurt Kawohi

Hello. I have a few questions with regard to your posts. I hope that will be alright?

Umm, I am a human. You are also human, correct?

Okay, and humans are created with finite abilities / knowledge, true?

So, where do you turn for guidance? I mean, which Authoritative source?

Do you read the Agamas & Vedas? Do you read The Bible or Quran or Baha'i Writings? Do you recognize God's Manifestation & obey the commands of Lord Krishna or Jesus, Mohammad, Moses, Abraham, Buddha, Zoroaster, The Bab, or Baha'u'llah?

I am a Baha'i. A follower of Baha'u'llah. I read The Baha'i Writings.

When someone asks me a question - I look to The Word of God to find the answer... since it is His World and not mine.

Do you live your life to please the Creator?
Do as He instructs?
Listen to His Manifestations?
Read His Word?
Obey His Commands? .....
Or...
Is it all about Kurt and how Kurt sees fit? Live your life to please yourself?

I mean, how does one do things if they
believe there is another "correct" path? A path which
doesn't require one to
Read The Word of God,
Obey His Commands,
Recognize & listen to His Manifestations?
Do you pick gurus (humans) that you feel have the knowledge you seek?
When learning about the Creator, do you read the texts written by various authors with information you deem necessary?

Thank you. God Bless.

Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:51 pm
by Kurt Kawohl
ALL religions were formed by man. ALL "Holy Books" were written by fallible man.

The spirit of God can be directly accessed by our spirit to find the truth.
Many books have been written on various religious beliefs. Most people have their own self attained or learned knowledge or deep religious convictions on spirituality. People often believe they will be condemned if they do not believe a certain way. Enlightenment is a state of intellectual or spiritual awareness, the process of this spiritual awareness is translated by the mind. An aural experience is the mind's interpretation of either a spiritual or intellectual interaction with the subconscious which can also be considered the spirit. Any translation is subject to the mind's conditioning, hence, when the interceder, the mind is enlightened, it translates the reception accordingly.

A religious ideology that encompasses the blending of major religions would require the major emphasis to be on spirituality rather than the dogmas tied to superstitions that have been carried over from medieval times.

A reexamination within each major religion would require them to:
1. First Judaism would have to admit that the prophets interaction with God was with their spirit rather than any direct physical contact and that miracles are the results of the mind’s accomplishments.
2. Christianity would accept that Jesus was a man & died a man; He was a prophet, a messenger of God. His spirit/soul (He) is now a part of God, so if one says Jesus is now God one is correct. There is no other God besides the God that Jesus, Muhammad, Abraham, etc. are now a part of.
3. Islam’s claims that Muhammad was the last prophet would have to include the concept that new messengers of God will be reality as long as mankind exists.
4. Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. would encompass the possible existence of a God that is spirit.
5. All religions agree that God is spirit & owns nothing & created nothing. God guided the development of the universe like a Master Planner; God does not command anything or anyone & "He" does not need to order anyone around. God is self-sufficient & needs nothing from man.

Namaste,
Kurt

P.S. Please see http://transcendentalists.org

Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:53 pm
by MWaldie
Hi Kurt,

Thats a religion too isn't? You also had to learn those philosophies from someone else did you not? If so, then were you not giving them (the authors) the "authority" to instruct you?

Also, How do you account for the relgious progress? Meaning, there are really so few religions that still exist, what makes only those "prophets" endure?

Finally, in your understanding where does the Baha'i faith miss the mark? Where are we wrong in your estimation?

I ask because you listed the other religions faults in your judgement. This is a Baha'i site, let us know what you see that we need to learn or let go of? Be direct.

Thanks!!

Mat

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:19 am
by Kurt Kawohl
Hi Mat,

Transcendentalism is an effort to stop the killings over religious misperceptions by attempting to implement religious rationality, which today is an oxymoron. In order to intelligently appreciate something there has to be complete truth. Only when the truth behind the concept is known can one accurately judge the concept. Spirituality is an interaction of man’s spirit with the Spirit of God. This interaction was often expanded upon by followers who added their own interpretations and gradually the original message was skewed to meet the agenda of the newly formed religion. Most religions today are composed of so much added on garbage to a point where they are the culmination of their own politics and have lost the original meaning of spirituality.

How can Bahaism be the uniting force of “all” religions? I refer back to Einstein's statement, ““The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity”.

Can Bahaism accept and promote all of the 5 steps as outlined above?

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:22 am
by Tony
“Many philosophers and I highly respect and agree with most of the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh. I believe that with a few minor changes, Bahaism could be the uniting force of “all” religions.”

And a few grains of deadly poison may be concealed in a spoonful of honey.

“ALL religions were formed by man. ALL "Holy Books" were written by fallible man.”

From this statement alone, your philosphy is anathema to Baha’is. You are of course perfectly free to promulgate it - even on a Baha’i forum - but no Baha’i faithful to the Covenant would accept it.

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:28 am
by Guest
Hi Kurt,

My point mostly is you yourself are following words from a man. This is your own interpretations of mans word. So as to its falliblility you have constructed the same downfall to your "truth" as you prescribe to all religions on Earth now.

So how is your "Truth" the right "truth" when you quote yourself and other men as its source?

I am just trying to point out that we all need a "true" source. Because your right.

"Without truthfulness, progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul."

Your 5 points or the Baha'i's criteria for true religion of God. They are meaningless without a fundamental truth. But if you debase your own source of that truth how can anyone investigate and "believe" for themselves?

Just something I cling to within the faith. something to investigate for myself. If I believe in the source as truth then I can learn from it for myself.

Its all about teaching me to fish so that I can eat for a lifetime and pass that onto to ohers to do the same.

Respectfully however you have a beautiful way of putting things and really I see several agreements with the Baha'i' faith in your posts.

Thanks for posting,

Mat

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:36 am
by Kurt Kawohl
Tony wrote:
From this statement alone, your philosphy is anathema to Baha’is. You are of course perfectly free to promulgate it - even on a Baha’i forum - but no Baha’i faithful to the Covenant would accept it.


Then...Collectively, this is not yet the time for humanity to finally achieve the dream of world unity and world peace and Bahaism will continue to plod along its present path of achievement.

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:37 am
by NewToTheForum
Hi Kurt,

Thank you for answering my questions.

I can surely appreciate the idea of seeking The Truth - Seeking to understand the Truth, embrace the Truth, share the Truth.

Kurt, if it is okay, I would like to share a prayer with you.

May the good Lord open your eyes & your heart and allow you to recognize His Manifestations. May He be so generous to allow you to read His Beautiful Words. May He help you to understand these are the only Authoritative source you need to seek. May He comfort you with the understanding that He is in control - you can rely on His knowledge rather than your own. This I pray.

Happy Holidays. God Bless.

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:44 am
by Kurt Kawohl
NewToTheForum wrote:Hi Kurt,

Kurt, if it is okay, I would like to share a prayer with you.

May the good Lord open your eyes & your heart and allow you to recognize His Manifestations. May He be so generous to allow you to read His Beautiful Words. May He help you to understand these are the only Authoritative source you need to seek. May He comfort you with the understanding that He is in control - you can rely on His knowledge rather than your own. This I pray.

Happy Holidays. God Bless.


I greatly appreciate your prayer.

Happy Holidays to all & may God bless and inspire you daily.

Namaste,
Kurt

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:49 am
by Kurt Kawohl
Anonymous wrote:

I am just trying to point out that we all need a "true" source.
Mat


Hi Mat,

There is only one "true" source...directly via spiritual interaction.

Namaste,
Kurt

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:35 pm
by Guest
But you said you are flawed like all of mankind?

Which I am in total agreement with human kind being flawed.

Just trying to figure out how all encpompassing truth comes from flawed human kind? Your human and flawed so how is your way more truthful then anyone elses.

Mormons are taught that they can recieve God's direct instructions. Is this what you mean?

I understand you see all religions as from flawed men. How is your faith different?

How do you trust your faith?

I am not trying to be contentious or have leading questions. I am really curious:)

Mat

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 3:18 pm
by Kurt Kawohl
Hi Mat,

Religion means faith, belief. Logic means reasoning, common-sense, science of inference and reasoning. A religion of logic is an oxymoron. It does not exist.

Knowledge can be defined as familiarity, understanding; something that is known; wisdom; learning ,education; or awareness, cognizance. Our spirit is the only one capable having cognizance or an awareness of spirituality and receiving inspiration, blessings and establishing lines of communication with the Supreme Spirit called Allah/God and several other names.

Belief is opinion or creed which is a confession of religious faith. The spirit can have a knowledge of the Supreme Spirit; the conscious mind believes in a spiritual existence.
Many people throughout history as well as myself have received evidence of a spiritual existence. Can we prove it? No. The spiritual existence is in a spiritual dimension which can not be accessed or proven by the physical, therefore there is no evidence of it.

Humanity would have to accept a completely logical deity called God, Allah, etc. Social norms during the time period of the lives of prophets from the past dictated their and their society's acceptance of a God with king-like qualities. A powerful God was needed , one similar to the Gods of the pagans who demanded sacrifice, obedience and worship.

Today democratic rule is desirable. Dominance is frowned upon and being rebelled against. The minds of messengers influence the interpretations according to their social time period. Past messengers did not lie because this was the way in which they interpreted God to be; their inspirations from the Spirit of God were what they believed the message was the one that needed to be relayed to the people. One must accept a God to be Supreme Purity, a God of either, might, royalty, peace, or government.

Inspiration can be a divine influence upon the spirit and subject to the mind’s interpretation. Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder characterized by a loss of contact with reality; hearing non-existent voices. Delusional disorders are the holdings of false beliefs; illusions. If the existence of spirituality is a reality, then we must deduce that an interaction between the spiritual and physical realm can only be perceived by the spirit. We will specify the existence of a spirit below. If one is convinced of the existence of spirituality then one must ask which events are believable. A deity who came out of nowhere caused catastrophes, punishes people and who created the universe out of nothing as if by magic or a so-called deity comprised of a spiritual unity of souls or spirits; the Ultimate Purity consisting of Pure Intelligence, Pure Logic, the Supreme Spirit that guides the development of the universe.

Many of our experiences here are as an example of spiritual life. A child until about the age of about 2 is receptive to and believes all that he/she hears, observes, and is told. This is the most influential period and will greatly shape the remainder of his life; all information is stored within the subconscious.

After age 2 independence is exercised and rebellion is the next step. Many teenagers begin to doubt their parents judgment and usually a young adult in his twenties moves away from home. Some will no longer keep in touch with or communicate with the parent. The spirit or soul will also at interval periods sever the lines of communication and at times communication with the Spirit of God will cease entirely.

Every person is born with a spirit. A child’s spirit is a part of the mother's spirit which is passed down to the fetus and is then separated from its host at birth. It remains partially spiritually connected to the past host until it is capable of receiving its own data by the development of the child's reasoning capabilities at about 18 months from its birth. At that time the spirit separates from the mother and the child develops it's own spirit.

The spirit can not exist without a host. If the host or a mother with reasoning capabilities is not available during that time, the child's spirit bonds temporarily with the spirit of its physical provider. At about age 1 1/2 the spirit separates from the mother and the child develops it's own spirit.

The conscience relays information to the spirit. Consciousness arises when contact has been made with a base; (sense or emotion) this is when spirit initiates its first recording. The spirit is the database of the senses and emotions.

There are several levels of consciousness:

A. On a scale of 1 to 10 rating, with consciousness being level 1 where the spirit accumulates data and triggers emotions.
B. The upper level of sub consciousness is at level 2; involuntary subconscious reactions are sometimes manifested.
C. The dream level at 3; a series of thoughts and visions are introduced.
Level 4 is deep sleep.
D. Hibernation or very deep sleep is at level 5.
E. At level 6 unconsciousness sets in.
F. Spiritual data is stored between levels 6 and 9.
G. At 10 the subconscious is at a point of physical imminent death.
The "deserving" spirit that has established lines of communications with Spirit of God is transmitted to the spiritual realm, filtered and cleansed of all negative emotions; then it bonds with the Supreme Spirit.

When a personality disorder affects the data input process, data is filtered. Brain injury does not supersede the soul, at that point data input simply ceases. If one seems to have severely impaired reasoning capabilities it does not necessarily mean that reasoning capabilities are not, or never were present. Sometimes reasoning capabilities can not be displayed or communicated to another.

Being with spirit, unless one is completely emotionless, a spirit is present. One may say that emotions are psychological, (of the psyche) structuralism, psychobiological, but they are nevertheless of the spirit; which also subscribes to a form of natural selection.

The mind is unable to consciously communicate with the spirit. The conscience is the only communicator with the spirit or soul. The conscience relays information to the spirit unless the conscience is anesthetized by immoral acts or evil deeds.

The spirit or soul exists in the collective mental processes of the subconscious. The subconscious part of the mind and is also where the mental processes of creativity originate. The conscience adds to and stores life experiences with the spirit/soul. If the conscience is anesthetized by other than righteous conduct the existence of the spirit gradually fades and is eventually extinguished.

A deserving (clean) spirit consists of ethics, morality, good deeds, kindness, consideration for and helping others; being "righteous" insures the survival of the soul. When the body dies, any soul that is not transmitted, and has not bonded with God, dies; it simply ceases to exist.

The conscience is guided by its capacity to disseminate between pure and improper acceptable social norms. A determination is made by the conscience to abide by either the pure and proper, or to stretch the norm.

Deeds contrary to purity eventually anesthetizes the conscience and lines of communication with the spirit and God are severed. Evil is not adaptable to, or compatible with Pure Intelligence.

The cultural norm deduces acceptable proper behavior. If one lives thereby, the conscience is clear and no deity in the spiritual realm will judge or condemn anyone.

How do you touch and feel without emotion or sense; which is spirit; without having it recorded by your subconscious where the spirit resides? The spirit is spirit and not a religious force and is neither heaven sent, nor heaven inspired, though some people via deep meditation can have their spirit interact with God’s spirit. Sentience is the ability to sense, capability of feeling, consciousness.

The spirit is in the subconscious and often controls what one writes and thinks. The soul and spirit are often considered identical, though the soul has also been referred to as the vessel for the spirit.

The only physical effect that we can derive from the Spirit of God is by way of us receiving inspirations and blessings. In order to accomplish this, lines of communication through righteous living, need to be established between our spirit and the Spirit of God during our lifetime in order for our soul to survive after our physical demise. Any soul or spirit, upon a person's physical death, that does not bond or is not transmitted by us and received by the Supreme Spirit ceases to exist.

We exist physically and with the spirit on the present plane with negative and positive. Righteous living and meditation filter and cleanse the negative of the spirit. The soul is the encompassing vessel that carries the spirit to its destination upon the physical demise. The soul is also the data storage area in the subconscious and is not subject to emotions; it can however trigger physical reflexes and responses. When the spirit leaves its host (physical demise) it has to be received by and interlace with the spirit host or it ceases its existence; upon the bonding with the spirit host, the spirit continues eternally.

The spirit, when the mind is in mental stasis, can at times connect with the Supreme Spirit, as evidenced by messengers. (Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc.) The mind's ability to interpret this connection and messages is often deficient, hence we have the creation of various religions.

Sync, harmony, and a coexistence of souls, are a part of God. Preferred total isolation, rebellious behavior and a desire for pain, are mental imbalances and instabilities. The soul has to be stable in order to achieve perpetuity.

A person afflicted by bodily sufferings can at times be closer to God than one who is in daily turmoil and obsessed with acquiring and hoarding wealth for himself, rather than sharing and making life bearable for the needy. Our main purpose in life is to expand our knowledge and to strive for a peaceful coexistence with an inspirational guidance from God.

Convince yourself. Spiritual meditation whereby all physical senses are subdued can result in spiritual transcendence and enlightenment. You can not see the wind, but you can feel its power. You can not see the spiritual but you can feel the enlightenment of the spirit and you will recognize the truth.

Namaste,
Kurt
http://transcendentalism.us

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:33 pm
by Guest
Wow you have thought this out intensely.

So the answer to my question is you just know its true from the line of reasoning you just laid out.

Thanks btw that was a lot of info.

This does seem to take a lot of assuming of everyones different realityies as one and the same. Since I believe through Jung that we have a collective unconscience the existance of a transcendental reality can be viewed, even if slightly, scientifically, all be it not physical science but neither is physics in a large mathematical equation way:)

Now, in ther Baha'i' I have learned that we can view our souls as separate entitiies. A full non-corporeal entity not attached to our physical bodies at all. And it seems the opposite of what you say its the body that cannot exist without the soul. Since Humanity is nothing without its spirit.

Now the all Great God theory is very necessary and very accurate. But completely attributted to the Godhead of the time. Our Godhead or Messenger is Bahaullah. As was Jesus was in his time hence the term of God and Jesus being seemingly interchangable. God himself is completely unknowable. Any attribute given to God will box him and God is everything and nothing. But we are given Godheads or Kings if you so wish to place our faith in. As a Baha'i' I do not believe my prayers reach God. But as a sort of conduit or facisimle I am uncertain that really encompasses the great station of the Prophets, I pray and Bahaullah is there for me.

Nothing in the world is knowable. But God is not of this world. And although there maybe some truth in your beliefs they cannot encompass the unknowable by the nature of our dual existance in the plain.

But it is very interesting Hypothesis:)

Mat

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:58 pm
by Kurt Kawohl
Hi Mat,

The fact that everything exists as a result of everything else is the consequence of evolution, creation and progression. People have portrayed God as being mysterious when the concept of God is really quite simple. The bonding of the first two righteous souls, the first reasoning entities, God, originated somewhere in the universe, on our earth or on a planet in another solar system, possibly billions of years ago. The bonding of the first two souls created spiritual unity which expanded and progressed, created Cumulative Intelligence.

God is like a Master Planner who/that guides the universe rather than one who controls it. God is not this mighty ruler who wishes to enslave mankind, but a peaceful coexistence of the spirits or souls of many of our forefathers, past prophets, and all who lived righteously. Cultures change with time. God has always been the same, but our perception of God will vary with time.

Your prayers are for your benefit, but your spirit also interacts with God's spirit. Bahaullah is now a part of God, so when your spirit interacts with Bahaullah, it interacts with God.

How do I know this? See http://transcendentalists.us

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:46 pm
by MWaldie
Hi Kurt,

Thanks for sharing:) I have seen and was at first very much into that philosphy. But it never translated into anything but an empty space.

The thought of God originated straps God into a constraint that isnt there. You are basing your belief soley on this physical plain. When even science can understand and explain several dimensions.

They were also all created by God. But since God doesnt exist in this plain nor any other plain it is impossible to even fathom for an instance its true nature. For your explanation is still tied into time.

A beginning and and end has to exist for you beliefs to be reality. Time is physical and a part of this plain. Entwinded our physical existance.

When I was using my own hypothesis's to explain how I thought of existance and spirituality I used simliar notions that you did. I thought of God as a big blue entity somewhere and drops of him would fall to earth as the form of sentience or conscientous beings. Sent to experience as much as possible though bad behavior was not its aim, i was still to collect from good behavior as much love and respectful experience as I could. this want on here and on millions of other planets. I understand this a simplistic compared to your phypothesis but actually very similiar.

I thought I could explain God. But why? Not whether I should have, that's not the question. The real questions turned out to be why?

Its a wasted effort. My way makes everyones life meaningless. I am to gather information for the collective. But when does it end? Will it mean anything?

What if I lead my life like you suggest. It will end won't it? So what's the point. If we are trapped for eternity in time then we begin over and over again and end over and over again. Even your end of the soul theory makes me wonder what for? Why would that life force end? Is it about judgement or retribution? If we dont progress our souls who is the judge?

If we dont eat our soul food we whither and die. Again trapped in time so eventually we will die right?

I then realized for myself that I could not keep going I had to get off the treadmill I was wasting my philosphical life. I was attached to my intellect not living with my heart.

I was unsure if your philoosphy was different then mine was before I became a Baha'i' but it still doesnt escape time and attempts to explain God and acts attributed to God. Where is the Jusitice in the death of the soul for being wicked? It a waste nothing learned and no one can learn from there example.

Am I just duped into thinking this way from my faith? Can anyone say that I am just regurgitating dogma? Do you think I come from a less experienced place then you as to why I feel empty from your philosophy?

Can your one experience really be the only "Truth" or could that experience be more of a starting point. Your on this site for a reason.

I am not saying your experience is invalid, just that maybe you could look at it from a different point of view and get more out of it.

I am very sorry if I offended you in anyway. I just felt as if these words were important to you since I felt (in a more simplistic way) like you did before I became a Baha'i'.

Mat

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:52 pm
by MWaldie
I forgot to mention, I do believe God uses evolution. And that the lessons of evolution are important. But no one fully understand the point of evolution in it s essence.

I do believe Abdul Baha said we have always existed in essence. but I am still not learned enough to explain it properly. I hope my capicity will grow into that philosphy better it is very intrigueing to me.

But God again is outside of evolution. Even greater then evolution.

Also in noway does God need anything from us or requires us to be his slaves. Those are your words not mine. I give my submission to God Slavery is taken:)

Mat

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:32 pm
by Kurt Kawohl
MWaldie wrote:

But God again is outside of evolution. Even greater then evolution.

Mat


Hi Mat,

The spirit, when the mind is in mental stasis, can at times connect with the Supreme Spirit, as evidenced by God’s messengers. (Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Ahmad, Bahá’u’lláh, etc.) The mind's ability to interpret this connection and messages is often deficient, hence we have the creation of various religions.

In recent years, we have learned that 95% of the Universe is made of a type of matter or energy that we cannot see nor understand. The earth, moon, sun, and everything that we can see make up less than one percent of the entire universe. Gravity may ripple across the universe in waves, and certain cosmic rays, atomic particles moving at near light speed, possess an energy far greater than that which can be explained by modern physics.

Evolution is a cause; a bringing about of events so that when one occurs, the other then invariably follows. Everything in the physical universe and in the spiritual dimension has a cause and had a beginning. The universe may possibly have an ending but the spiritual existence, once initiated, is eternal.

Will we eventually be able to prove the existence of spiritual interaction with another dimension? I can only relate to my spiritual experiences and testify to their accuracy. It was like a burst of energy...an immensely puzzling and physically draining experience; the mind then attempted to reassemble this interaction, wherefrom I perceived was how most religions were started. Was this an illusion or an interaction with a cosmic spiritual consciousness; a united spiritual intelligence, God? You will have your opinions and I have mine.

Namaste,
Kurt

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:55 pm
by MWaldie
I agree we can all have our opinions:) And agreement can be found EVERYWHERE we look:)

Thanks for the discussion.

I realize now that one thing that is different is you view the Prophets as just regular men. Just like you and I:) I don't they are not just men they have a higher station. That is how I view them:)

I did believe as you did though. Almost completely. I believed the manifestations of God were just more in tune with a higher spirit. They were just men just great philosophers. I was trying to justify my own feelings and life into a mold that I chose it to fit into taylo made with my experiences and forgiving of my faults of course. Not realizing I needed to change to get unto the right path.

I was the one who needed to change not everyone else. I could not know everything by myself. I was using my will and getting myself in trouble. Even though I was leading a relatively moral life at least personally. I was helping mankind on my terms and seeking rewards for my actions. I was using the word 'I' all the time, as I have in my posts to often. So still I struggle with this submission.

But your world view is very generous as all those great literary men of the past who were followers of transcendental studies. I am glad your here and thanks for the imparting of your story and your point of view.

Much respect:)

Mat

To: Kurt Kawohl

Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:50 pm
by Pilosofia
Speaking for myself I have found your discussion most interesting
and of course timely. I am interested on your response on your
thoughts whether you feel deeply within yourself whether there is
something more then just being men on behalf of Jesus and Baha'u'llah?
countless have good intentions,hidden agendas and so forth but what
is there that sets these two beautiful souls apart from the rest in your
opinion?

Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:23 pm
by MWaldie
Hi,

From my standpoint I could recite the stations that Abdul Baha has illustrated before. But from my personal view they stand apart because they are not human.

I realize that is an oddball sounding statement. but that is how my mind gets around the whole thing. These are not beings of this world. There station soars above us and far beyond a mere cult of personality. From the study of there lives we can see this, to me. They are sinless, infallible. Alive in a physical sense but pure energy in another. You can remove there humanity and still they are here. And even there physical being is of utmost heigth.

I am trying to explain how I personally view them. I am not loftying them up high as if they were just great thinking men, because they were not men. They are the Godhead. I can never be even in 1 million lifetimes one of them. Anymore then I could turn myself back into an amoeba. But it goes beyond that. I cannot even evolve into them. So it leads me too believe they are not human.

How I recognize a manifestation is critical. Most would say from there words. Which is a good place. They must bring certain message. One of which is that religion is a force for unification and anything that is divisive of humanity is not from God. They must have lived a sinless life. But moreover. if you saw them in the street next to you would you recognize them?

Without uttering a word there would be a connection. Like a moth to the flame. By the smile on there face the whole world would be ignited.

Happy Holidays everyone:)

Mat

Question to Kurt

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:22 pm
by Pilosofia
After reading Kurt's interesting discussion I became aware of the lack
of an understanding of Jesus,Mohammet and Baha'u'llah's reality
between mankind and God. Kurt's discussion is brilliant in almost all
area's and I could not find any argument from my own mind but feel
there is much that is can be helpful to many including myself.
However I feel Kurt should look into the reality of Baha'u'llah to grasp
the station or comprehension of what is involved, to go beyond the
apparent appearance of Jesus and Baha'u'llah as Prophets etc. and
and examine what is often overlooked by so many and see with a new understanding the whole picture who the real Prophets are and their
role in creation! (There's much more,we have just begun.)

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:59 pm
by Kurt Kawohl
I would like to share some thoughts & hope that it is not too boring & too long.

The Pithiness Of Life

Kurt felt the pithiness of his life.
Words project within his spirit that seem to speak
The relenting of the mind, it dominates the senses

My “I” absolved within its hold.
Am I the I that lives within this life, am I the spirit there within?
The conscience troubles my understanding

Am I the I or is the I my transcendation?
My spirit I beseech you where does this journey end?
“I am spirit, I now control this voyage”.

“Let meditation absolve the bonds within”, I am told
I now freely go where I must go.
The peaceful flight, the brilliant light, I am now there.

The puzzlement of it all is now upon me
I am here I am there, I am everywhere.
A part of me is within, the beauty beyond belief.

The peace my calm relief.
The interaction of the All. Most questions disappear
Though one part of me is like a child

The spirit seeks answers. How can this be?
Are you the deity of whom my father preached?
Who is the you? Who is the I?

I see it now. I am a part of time.
A apart of God, the Great Spirit of all past.
I am within, tapping the mind of creation.

A fleeting thought appears; am I still the I part of my psyche?
Only for this small moment, I comprehend.
Now my psyche is overwhelmed with anticipation

The spirit, the mind is one of understanding
Love washes over me like a tide,
I go back to my beginning.

A child is born in the Baltic, I see it now, it is I
Within three periods, three revolutions around the sun
The mother with her child must flee oppression.

The father must remain to serve the cause
The second great war brings chaos like never before.
Refuge is now in the land where the confusion began.

A prisoner of war and five more periods pass,
The father is again united with his loved ones.
The family seeks then in the New World, a new beginning,

In the promised land promises fall short,
Life again is a struggle, twelve more periods pass,
Then pneumonia sets in.

The pain of breathing, the body almost succumbs.
It becomes a trial of survival; am I to die?
How well I remember, to God I did pray

If my life is to end, can I be with you?
I studied the scriptures, I read them to end.
Suddenly I, my spirit its first journey did take.

The glee, the adulation. I felt it all. A union with God.
But am I alive or has my spirit transcended?
The answers seem clear though not quite comprehended.

I look for a master, yet none do I see.
I feel the ecstasy of God, I am within
A gathering of souls. There Jesus I now see.

Moses, Abraham, Jacob and Baha'u'llah
I know you all, I read of you.
And many more thereof, how can this be?

Be at peace my child, a unison of thought I could feel
This is not yet your destiny, but soon,
Only then, when your mission is done.

I am back now at peace in my bed, my body heals quickly
Soon I forget. Was this but a dream?
A dream I eventually did think

As the years passed, I continued my life.
I am in my youth now, 18 periods since birth
I had dragons to slay, to conquer with mirth.

The armed services I then did join, to see Germany again
And to my surprise, an angel I met, a beautiful girl full of joy.
She stole my heart, she made me whole.

Could this be love, I wondered?
Should I let my spirit bond with this creature of beauty
Should I ask her to share my joys, my pains, my life?

As love transcends our spirits unite.
Our souls are like one.
She is now my wife.

As I reminisce now 45 years later, I wonder
Was it fate that brought us together?
I look at my two daughters, their families, their children.

I have proof that miracles really do happen
When our choices are right and then I am reminded
Of the love that has held us together every day and night.

But then I look back and wonder
Has the pithiness of my life
Had the effect that was delegated to me?

Your work is not yet done, my spirit, the I is again reminded.
Two more times within a short span
My spirit has again transcended the realm of time.

Into another dimension, the spiritual, the unity of souls
The progressive intelligence that inspires all
Those who seek guidance for the betterment of man.

My spirit is shown the beginning, the beginning of man
But who is before man, how did God, this unity begin?
Come with me my son and you will see.

The beginning of God was many, many eons ago,
Travel with me to the start of time
To the beginning of the universe and where life began

That life form seems foreign, yet it is full of love
A rationality therefrom sprang hen two, then more
The unity of spirit upon their demise began.

Now we will go back to your world, the start of man.
In the distance I see a speck, like a kernel of sand
Is that my land, my earth amongst the vast expanse?

Yes, this is where your kind has fought over me
And killed its kind. Come I will show you,
There is your Adam and your Eve

There also is Abraham, the leader of men
His wife and his children and the strife that began
When he talked about his God

It was the interaction of his spirit with ours
That puzzled his mind
He began to pray and worship and his missions began.

This guidance, though sometimes it has produced pain,
Has served man well. Man needed a God to rely on
To know that his life is not in vain.

Then there was Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Baha'u'llah
My messengers who inspired their people
To lift their spirits when life seems bleak.

Often during the physical lives of my messengers
The viciousness of man came out of a need for survival,
But if their spirit remained clean their soul is now a part of us.

The Crusades came, the killings, the enslavement
They said that it was logical and rational
That God was like a king, a ruler, a dominator.

Who needed man’s worship and obedience
They built churches, temples and mosques
This was not God’s making, it is the want of man.

The tragedies of late has burdened your soul
With an attempt to find answers.
We, the unity can guide and suggest , but it is up to you

To change the destiny of man.
Man desires to fight but eventually this too will end.
So complete your mission the best that you can.

Dear God I am but a simple man, I am not well learned.
I have many shortcomings. Who will listen?
Fret not and do your best, this is all I ask.

Now go forth and perform your task.
Whimper not, stand proud and tall
And you will be rewarded with the union of your soul

Again I am reminded of the pithiness of man.
How I wish that I had more time
To live it again.

May God bless eveyone
Namaste,
Kurt
http://transcendentalists.org

Reply to Kurt

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:13 pm
by Pilosofia
That was really very informative and clear
on where you been and where you have arrived.
I hear what you are saying, God bless you my friend.
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear and want you to
know I agree with you,I too went through almost the
very same thing and others out there I believe have
gone through the threshold out into a larger reality
because of it, what was lost and what was gained is for
each human soul to discover for them selves.
That's what is most wonderful ! To discover for one self.
I'm glad to have met you.
:) :) :)

"O Son of Being: Love me that I may love thee. If thou
lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee."
Baha'u'llah

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:55 pm
by majnun
Words can also build a prison.

reply to majnun

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:44 am
by Pilosofia
It goes without saying. The intent is progress and hopely freedom from
ignorance. :)

Re: Reply to Kurt

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:46 am
by Guest
Pilosofia wrote: I too went through almost the
very same thing and others out there I believe have
gone through the threshold out into a larger reality
because of it, what was lost and what was gained is for
each human soul to discover for them selves.
That's what is most wonderful ! To discover for one self.
I'm glad to have met you.
:) :) :)


Namaste, Pilosophia. I agree & I'm glad to have met you also.

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:38 am
by Guest
I think the distinguishing things about Science and Religion is that in their purest form (one simple observation the other simple revelation) they hold so much potential. Where things get tricky is when people get involved... scientific BELIEF is simply a consesus of opinion. You may have a theory, you may have a test which proves it, but until others can reproduce your results, until they are in agreement with you conclusions, it does not get added to the realm of scientific knowledge. Likewise with Religion... God migh say "Thus and this other thing" but really, do we understand it, are we interpreting it correctly, does it matter that so many people interpret the Word of God a certain way?

This is why independent investigation of the Truth is the standard by which an individual gains spiritual insight... because every science, every interpretation, every thing by which humanity judges its own worth is nothing more than a collective opinion or a rebelling against a collective opinion, but always always relative to that collective consesus. How do we free ourselves from the tyranny of consesus? By seeking independent of all things (even independent of our own desire to be in or out of consesus - beware lest hate repel you from Truth or love blindly lead you astray)

But at the same time, looking at the course of history, there is also a point of community... without community our own independent investigations of truth are fruitless, pointless and have to measure... how can we know justice if there is no place to practice it? How can we know mercy if there is no one to forgive, no transgressions to overlook? I think here is where the notions of collective subconscious, but also collective consciousness in the form of consultation (a wonderful tool explained by Baha'u'llah), become useful and seen in there proper light.

As to the idea that reason and logic, that science are some how better than religion because religion is based on "faith":
Reason and logic are all based on some essential belief... even if that belief is that existance exists, or it doesn't... logic and reason require some leap of "faith" regarding the condition of existance as much as scientists have "faith" that observable phenomena hasn't been so much a freak accident of perception, they intuit a cause and effect relationship in all things, where such a concept really isn't at all implicit in the mere observing of something happening. (Just because a rock falls, does it really mean something must be causing it fall? No, it simply falls, and we have observed it. If a rock always falls, is there any reason why it is not a simple accident of our perception that it always seems to fall, perhaps there is no rock? You see, science intuits, has "faith" in Causality and in its own tools of perception). And religionists have faith that they have recognised the Mouth Piece of God, and that their individual or collective interpretations of His Words are correct. They each have their own kind of Faith, and no one has convinced me any is more worthy a pathway to knowledge as the other.

As far as the paths of knowledge are concerned, I have found nothing more illuminating than the following talk given by 'Abdu'l-Baha:

17 April 1912 9

Talk at Hotel Ansonia

Broadway and Seventy-third Street, New York

Notes by Howard MacNutt

During my visit to London and Paris last year I had many talks with the materialistic philosophers of Europe. The basis of all their conclusions is that the acquisition of knowledge of phenomena is according to a fixed, invariable law -- a law mathematically exact in its operation through the senses. For instance, the eye sees a chair; therefore, there is no doubt of the chair's existence. The eye looks up into the heavens and beholds the sun; I see flowers upon this table; I smell their fragrance; I hear sounds outside, etc. This, they say, is a fixed mathematical law of perception and deduction, the operation of which admits of no doubt whatever; for inasmuch as the universe is subject to our sensing, the proof is self-evident that our knowledge of it must be gained through the avenues of the senses. That is to say, the materialists announce that the criterion and standard of human knowledge is sense perception. Among the Greeks and Romans the criterion of knowledge was reason -- that whatever is provable and acceptable by reason must necessarily be admitted as true. A third standard or criterion is the opinion held by theologians that traditions or prophetic statement and interpretations constitute the basis of human knowing. There is still another,  a fourth criterion, upheld by religionists and metaphysicians who say that the source and channel of all human penetration into the unknown is through inspiration. Briefly then, these four criteria according to the declarations of men are: first, sense perception; second, reason; third, traditions; fourth, inspiration.

In Europe I told the philosophers and scientists of materialism that the criterion of the senses is not reliable. For instance, consider a mirror and the images reflected in it. These images have no actual corporeal existence. Yet if you had never seen a mirror, you would firmly insist and believe that they were real. The eye sees a mirage upon the desert as a lake of water, but there is no reality in it. As we stand upon the deck of a steamer, the shore appears to be moving, yet we know the land is stationary and we are moving. The earth was believed to be fixed and the sun revolving about it, but although this appears to be so, the reverse is now known to be true. A whirling torch makes a circle of fire appear before the eye, yet we realize there is but one point of light. We behold a shadow moving upon the ground, but it has no material existence, no substance. In deserts the atmospheric effects are particularly productive of illusions which deceive the eye. Once I saw a mirage in which a whole caravan appeared traveling upward into the sky. In the far North other deceptive phenomena appear and baffle human vision. Sometimes three or four suns, called by scientists mock suns, will be shining at the same time, whereas we know that the great solar orb is one and that it remains fixed and single. In brief, the senses are continually deceived, and we are unable to separate that which is reality from that which is not.

As to the second criterion -- reason -- this likewise is unreliable and not to be depended upon. This human world is an ocean of varying opinions. If reason is the perfect standard and criterion of knowledge, why are opinions at variance and why do philosophers disagree so completely with each other? This is a clear proof that human reason is not to be relied upon as an infallible criterion. For instance, great discoveries and announcements of former centuries are continually upset and discarded by the wise men of today. Mathematicians, astronomers, chemical scientists continually disprove and reject the conclusions of the ancients; nothing is fixed, nothing final; everything is continually changing because human reason is progressing along new roads of investigation and arriving at new conclusions every day. In the future much that is announced and accepted as true now will be rejected and disproved. And so it will continue ad infinitum.

When we consider the third criterion -- traditions -- upheld by theologians as the avenue and standard of knowledge, we find this source equally unreliable and unworthy of dependence. For religious traditions are the report and record of understanding and interpretation of the Book. By what means has this understanding, this interpretation been reached? By the analysis of human reason. When we read the Book of God, the faculty of comprehension by which we form conclusions is reason. Reason is mind. If we are not endowed with perfect reason, how can we comprehend the meanings of the Word of God? Therefore, human reason, as already pointed out, is by its very nature finite and faulty in conclusions. It cannot surround the Reality Itself, the Infinite Word. Inasmuch as the source of traditions and interpretations is human reason, and human reason is faulty, how can we depend upon its findings for real knowledge?

The fourth criterion I have named is inspiration through which it is claimed the reality of knowledge is attainable. What is inspiration? It is the influx of the human heart. But what are satanic promptings which afflict mankind? They are the influx of the heart also. How shall we differentiate between them? The question arises: How shall we know whether we are following inspiration from God or satanic promptings of the human soul? Briefly, the point is that in the human material world of phenomena these four are the only existing criteria or avenues of knowledge, and all of them are faulty and unreliable. What then remains? How shall we attain the reality of knowledge? By the breaths and promptings of the Holy Spirit, which is light and knowledge itself. Through it the human mind is quickened and fortified into true conclusions and perfect knowledge. This is conclusive argument showing that all available human criteria are erroneous and defective, but the divine standard of knowledge is infallible. Therefore, man is not justified in saying, "I know because I perceive through my senses," or "I know because it is proved through my faculty of reason," or "I know because it is according to tradition and interpretation of the Holy Book," or "I know because I am inspired." All human standards of judgment are faulty, finite.  23 

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 22)


I can find no argument against this. So I find little point in arguing that one's understanding is better than anothers. Or that science, or that reason, or that religious understanding, or that inspiration is a better method to asertain the Reality of Realities. They fail in my opinion. And so they are all more or less useful.

And as regard this trying to convince our friend that his ideas are not so good:

Let me ask those Baha'is who try to convince others that Baha'u'llah was not simply just a man... consider your own reasons for accepting Baha'u'llah. What are His *proofs*? There is no point in saying "The Manifestations of God are no mere mortals" because these other enlightened souls will say "Indeed they were extremely great mortals!" The question is one of station, and a servant only accepts his station when he beholds the Majesty of His Lord.

Furthermore, did not Baha'u'llah say of His Own Self "I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been."

Thus, the real question for those who proclaim to have a better understanding, a clearer picture, a more perfect revelation of God than Baha'u'llah is this: is your understanding, is your knowledge equal to the Knowledge of Baha'u'llah.

That is the challenge you give to them. They are already far more advanced than the average Baha'i. You can never hope to convince them of anything, they are already convinced of their own knowledge.

The only plea to them can be thus:
"Dear most beloved friend of mine. I challenge you to read every Book of Baha'u'llah and after reading them, reciting them, and reflecting upon them... do you not accept Him as a more perfect reflection of God than your own conceptions?"

Thats it.

Should they take up that challenge, most every fair soul I have offered it to admits to his own utter nothingness before Him, and of those who still love themselves more than they love God, why would you think you can prove to them when Baha'u'llah's own Revelation has failed to convince them?

So dear Kurt, what these Baha'is are asking you is this:
If you could dispense with every thing you posses, all riches, and knowledge, all understanding, and in exchange could gain the Presence of God, would you do it?

And if you would do it, will you not, already exposed and accepting of many of the Truths in the Baha'i Faith, take up the challenge of reading, reciting, and meditating on the Words of Baha'u'llah, free from your own understandings, free from what the Baha'is tell you to think, free from all else but the Words of Baha'u'llah and their resonance within you? And then after being fair and letting go of attachments to your own thoughts, will you weigh this Book against your own philosophy, your own understanding, your own self?

Which will you find more convincing? That is for you alone to decide.

And know, that even if turn away from this challeng, or if you remain unconvinced, if the heat of Love and Desire is not fanned in your breast at the mention of Baha'u'llah, we will still love you, and accept you, and be your well-wishers, and willing partners in creating a more peaceful and loving society.

Much love to you!

--jpd