House authority

All research or scholarship questions
onepence~2
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House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:55 pm

Just curious ...

what are view points of when , how , and by whose Authority can

LSA.s / NSA's be declared House of Justice ...

say ... norway for example ...

can the current NSA of Norway simply declare we wish to be known as a House of Justice ... ???

or ... some town like Berlin ... can Berlin LSA ... on it's own accord wish to be called

Berlin House of Justice ...

????

BritishBahai
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Re: House authority

Postby BritishBahai » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:22 am

I was actually thinking of this a while ago.
I guess the only thing is that we have to wait for instructions from the Universal House of Justice, like everything else!
"I have desired only what Thou didst desire, and love only what Thou dost love"

AdibM
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Re: House authority

Postby AdibM » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:22 am

I believe there still need to be more LSAs/NSAs established before there's a name change in those institutions. I might have read that in Schaefer's Making the Crooked Straight.
"To be a Bahá'í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood." -- `Abdu'l-Bahá

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:08 am

BritishBahai wrote:I was actually thinking of this a while ago.
I guess the only thing is that we have to wait for instructions from the Universal House of Justice, like everything else!
yes ...

something along those lines

... would be interesting to know if what the Universal House of Justice would do if an
LSA , own its' own accord decided , to be a House of Justice

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:18 am

AdibM wrote:I believe there still need to be more LSAs/NSAs established before there's a name change in those institutions. I might have read that in Schaefer's Making the Crooked Straight.
yes ... that sorta makes since ...

without NSA of Persia ... the thought of any name change is rather insignificant ...

still though ... it would be interesting to know the Law ...

something along the lines of unchallengeable Authority
and the Creation of the Administrative Order is currently under the sole direction of the Institution of The Guardianship

hmmm ... yes ... that sorta makes sense ...

yet ... sorta leaves us hanging with only a Universal House of Justice ...

until such time as the next Manifestation ...

?????

hmmm ....

legal thoughts upon this matter greatly appreciated ...

and ... we suppose next to exact legal Law would be tradition ...
as far as we know , there has never been a House of Justice other than our current Universal House of Justice ...

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:22 am

it would be interesting to know more about this

"When copies of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas (q.v.) reached Iran, some of the Bahá'ís of Tehran decided, in about 1294/1877, to set up a House of Justice in that city. As there are no instructions in the book regarding the establishment of this institution, however, they merely called together an ad hocgroup of prominent Bahá'ís and called that the Assembly of Consultation (majlis-i-shawr) and the house in which they met the House of Justice. They consulted about the affairs of the community but they were a self-appointed body and even kept their existence a secret from the main body of the Bahá'ís (presumably for security)."

http://www.northill.demon.co.uk/relstud ... unications

////

dh note : ... as stated previously ... current "instructions" are the most valid
and we assert our belief in the unchallengeable Authority
in the Creation of the Administrative Order is currently under the sole direction of the Institution of The Guardianship which has The Unversal House of Justice as the Body for which the Friends obey. ... ... *smile*

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:28 am

"In 1897 `Abdu'l-Bahá instructed the Hands of the Cause to begin the consultations that resulted eventually in the setting up in Tehran in 1899 of the Central Spiritual Assembly, consisting of the four Hands of the Cause and nine who were elected by special electors appointed by the Hands. From then on the spiritual assemblies became the principle administrative organs of the Bahá'í community.

Already by 1920 a considerable degree of organizational sophistication existed with the Central Spiritual Assembly in Tihran having committees for education, teachers' training, poor relief, publishing, international correspondence, hospitality, adjudication of commercial and other disputes, and for teaching. In 1934 a national spiritual assembly was formed with its headquarters in Tehran."

http://www.northill.demon.co.uk/relstud ... unications

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:12 pm

"The local and national communities are not a formless assemblage of autonomous
associations, but divisional sections of a world community."

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:46 pm

"The international body, the Universal House of Justice is not named in
the scripture of Baha’u’llah and can only be deduced by reference to the
functions ascribed to it.379 The name “Universal House of Justice”
derives from ‘Abdu’l-Baha - .380"

379. See Kita-b-i Aqdas 42; Qur’a - n 49, 50; cf. Tablets 7: 19; 7: 30; 8: 52; 8: 61; 8: 78.

380. ‘Abdu’l-Baha - , Will and Testament 1: 17; 1: 25; 3: 12; Some Answered Questions 45: 4;
Promulgation 455; Selections 33: 6; 38: 4; 187: 2.

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:48 pm

"The intermediate body, the “subordinate” or “national” House of
Justice (Baytu’l ‘adl-i khus.
u -
s.
i -
or Baytu’l ‘adl-i milli - )381 was ordained by
‘Abdu’l-Baha - .382 In order to express the embryonic character of the
local and national “Houses,” they are at present called “Spiritual
Assemblies.”383 This is, as Shoghi Effendi indicated, a “temporary
appellation,” which “as the positions and aims of the Baha - ’i - Faith are
better understood and more fully recognized, will gradually be
superseded by the permanent and appropriate designation of ‘House of
Justice.’”384"

382. ‘Abdu’l-Baha - , Will and Testament 1: 25.
383. Cf. Shoghi Effen i, World Order 6; God passes by 331; Baha - ’i - d Administration 20, 37, 39.
384. Quoted from Kita - b-i Aqdas, Note 49.

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:35 pm

"The Guardian425 is only infallible in the conduct of his
teaching office, i.e., in the interpretation of the scripture and revealed
doctrine, and in questions relating to the protection of the Faith.426"

////

dh note ... yes ... revealed doctrine ... that is why LSAs shall remain entitled LSAs ...
there is no legal way to legislate a House of Justice into being ... for such actions would go against the revealed doctrine of our Guardian .... hmmm ... wow ... this might be one of the saddest realizations for any believer in contemplating "the permanent vacancy of the Guardianship" ... wow ...

so ... we must wait for the "throne" of the "Land of Tá" to "gather together the flock of God" into our respective local and national House of Justice ... thus ... our efforts in establlishing our LSAs NSAs should be considered as the most precious of all endevours that we can offer to our Lord ...

yes ... LSAs not being able to be called a House of Justice is not a concern for grief ... instead ... one should consider "the source of the joy of all mankind" ...

hmmm ...

BritishBahai
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Re: House authority

Postby BritishBahai » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:20 pm

^ thanks for your posts, onepence :)

I finally found the passage I was looking for:

Source: Kitab Aqdas, Note 49 (Pages 188-189).
http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/b ... s.html#n49
49. The Lord hath ordained that in every city a House of Justice be established ¦30
The institution of the House of Justice consists of elected councils which operate at the local, national and international levels of society. Bahá'u'lláh ordains both the Universal House of Justice and the Local Houses of Justice in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas. 'Abdu'l-Bahá, in His Will and Testament, provides for the Secondary (National or Regional) Houses of Justice and outlines the method to be pursued for the election of the Universal House of Justice.

In the verse cited above, the reference is to the Local House of Justice, an institution which is to be elected in a locality whenever there are nine or more resident adult Bahá'ís. For this purpose, the definition of adult was temporarily fixed at the age of 21 years by the Guardian, who indicated it was open to change by the Universal House of Justice in the future.

Local and Secondary Houses of Justice are, for the present, known as Local Spiritual Assemblies and National Spiritual Assemblies. Shoghi Effendi has indicated that this is a "temporary appellation" which,

" ...as the position and aims of the Bahá'í Faith are better understood and more fully recognized, will gradually be superseded by the permanent and more appropriate designation of House of Justice. Not only will the present-day Spiritual Assemblies be styled differently in future, but they will be enabled also to add to their present functions those powers, duties, and prerogatives necessitated by the recognition of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh, not merely as one of the recognized religious systems of the world, but as the State Religion of an independent and Sovereign Power. "
"I have desired only what Thou didst desire, and love only what Thou dost love"

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:17 pm

yes ... BritishBahai cited Text is directly one point

... Shoghi Effendi has indicated that this is a "temporary appellation" ...

... we assert our belief that there is no legal way to legislate an end to this "temporary appellation" because of the permanent vacancy of the Guardianship ...

the only recourse is to endevour , through supporting our LSAs , to have the position and aims of the Bahá'í Faith better understood and more fully recognized

*smile*

brettz9
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Re: House authority

Postby brettz9 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:18 pm

I'm not clear what you mean by "we assert our belief that there is no legal way to legislate an end to this "temporary appellation""...

Legislate how? The Universal House of Justice can, and no doubt will decide at what time in the future such a designation might change. They are the Center of the Faith now and are free from error in all such decisions they make.

As I recall, in previous plans, before secularization trends took hold, it was a goal for Assemblies that could do so (e.g., in the East), to apply to become responsible for legal affairs within the community, as was the case for other religious communities. And, in the West, it has always been a goal to seek recognition in areas where the government permits, e.g., in overseeing marriages, etc. But while the term "House of Justice" might have conceivably been applied to the former, I highly doubt it would be applied in the case of the latter, except after a long-term and gradual (and supremely democratic) process delineated in our Writings which is to take place toward the establishment of a future Baha'i Commonwealth.

best wishes,
Brett

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:41 pm

Hi brettz9,

Thank you for your input and hopeful continuation of dialogue within this topic.

you assert a belief that

"The Universal House of Justice can, and no doubt will decide at what time in the future such a designation might change."

we wish to know how you think this is possible.

we state that our belief is that

"It is not possible that The Universal House of Justice can, and no doubt will decide at what time in the future such a designation might change"

We would like to know what reason you state your belief,
for, if our belief is wrong we certainly would like to know
and therefore correct our assertions.

Our belief is based upon the explicit text of our Kitab Aqdas and the notes
as supplied by The Universal House of Justice

"Local and Secondary Houses of Justice are, for the present, known as Local Spiritual Assemblies and National Spiritual Assemblies. Shoghi Effendi has indicated that this is a "temporary appellation" which ... "

We do not think there is a legitimate way for The Universal House of Justice to legislate upon any religious doctrine , especially any religious doctrine that The Guardian did not approve of.

The Guardian only approved of the terms of Local Spiritual Assemblies and National Spiritual Assemblies.

Now that the office of Guardian is vacant there can be no legitimate way to use any terms other than what has already been approved.

The only recourse into properly having the terms Local and National Houses of Justice applied is when an independent and Sovereign Power accepts the recognition of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh as being the State Religion.

Ultimately we must eagerly do our bidden work before the "throne" of the "Land of Tá" to "gather together the flock of God" and be on guard against any wolves in sheep's clothing.

Such are our assertions
Such are our beliefs

We certainly would like to hear more discourse upon this subject.

oneness,
dh

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:58 pm

We do think it is possible that an independent and Sovereign Power,
such as a President or King or Apostle,
might one day call a current LSA or NSA a House of Justice,
and as a matter of courtesy The Universal House of Justice might be able to respond in like matter , yet , in no way should such response by The Universal House of Justice be considered as an act of legislation , for in essence such an act would only be a recognition of what One has stated.

*smile*

brettz9
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Re: House authority

Postby brettz9 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:08 pm

Hello Dean and all,

My apologies for taking a while to respond... I believe it is less urgent for us to discuss more hypothetical issues like this one, especially for the far future, since there are important questions to address of relevance right now, but since the question impinges on the nature of the authority of the House of Justice, I think that aspect is worth our discussing in more detail.

We do not think there is a legitimate way for The Universal House of Justice to legislate upon any religious doctrine, especially any religious doctrine that The Guardian did not approve of.


Dean, I'm not sure where you have gotten the idea that the House of Justice is limited from legislating upon religious doctrine (how much more an administrative issue like this one). Perhaps here?

All matters of State should be referred to the House of Justice, but acts of worship must be observed according to that which God hath revealed in His Book.

(Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Ishraqat)


This matter we are discussing is clearly a "matter of State" and nothing to do with an "act of worship". And only the latter is limited here.

Maybe you are thinking of the fact that the House of Justice determined it could not appoint another Guardian or Hands of the Cause?

Note that in both cases, the Writings had already spelled out a means for determining these:

It is incumbent upon the Guardian of the Cause of God to appoint in his own life-time him that shall become his successor

(Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha)


(the above we note, also required his appointing another "branch" or male descendant, of which there were none left who were faithful to the Covenant)

The Hands of the Cause of God must be nominated and appointed by the Guardian of the Cause of God.

(ibid.)


The House of Justice is indeed not able to overrule matters explicitly recorded in the Book.

This it can do [alter a law of its own] because these laws form no part of the divine explicit Text.

(ibid.)


But there is no recording in the Book about how the Local and National Houses of Justice will come to be designated as such, so there is no restriction on their ability to make such a designation.

I think for the sake of our other readers, we should point out:

The interpretation of the Guardian, functioning within his own sphere, is as authoritative and binding as the enactments of the International House of Justice, whose exclusive right and prerogative is to pronounce upon and deliver the final judgment on such laws and ordinances as Bahá'u'lláh has not expressly revealed. Neither can, nor will ever, infringe upon the sacred and prescribed domain of the other. Neither will seek to curtail the specific and undoubted authority with which both have been divinely invested.

(Shoghi Effendi, World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 150


The House of Justice, in its constitution indicates that its own powers and duties include:

to expand and consolidate the institutions of its Administrative Order; to usher in the World Order of Bahá'u'lláh;...to found institutions;...


And besides this, who else could make such a determination? They are our Faith's center for matters related to the Faith, not pronouncements of earthly rulers or even National Spiritual Assemblies.

The House of Justice is a legislative body:

This House of Justice enacteth the laws and the government enforceth them. The legislative body must reinforce the executive, the executive must aid and assist the legislative body so that through the close union and harmony of these two forces, the foundation of fairness and justice may become firm and strong, that all the regions of the world may become even as Paradise itself.

(Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha)


and it is not limited to handling mundane matters:

Unto the Most Holy Book every one must turn, and all that is not expressly recorded therein must be referred to the Universal House of Justice. That which this body, whether unanimously or by a majority doth carry, that is verily the truth and the purpose of God Himself. Whoso doth deviate therefrom is verily of them that love discord, hath shown forth malice, and turned away from the Lord of the Covenant. By this House is meant that Universal House of Justice which is to be elected from all countries, that is from those parts in the East and West where the loved ones are to be found, after the manner of the customary elections in Western countries such as those of England.

It is incumbent upon these members (of the Universal House of Justice) to gather in a certain place and deliberate upon all problems which have caused difference, questions that are obscure and matters that are not expressly recorded in the Book. Whatsoever they decide has the same effect as the Text itself.

(ibid.)


The role of the Universal House of Justice, in the future, in removing the "temporary" appellation, would merely be applying the laws of Baha'u'llah according to the needs of the time, as it is charged to do--not arrogating to itself rights it did not possess (which again, per the quote from Shoghi Effendi above, it would not do).

Have you had a chance to read the Constitution of the Universal House of Justice? I think you can find a good many details there about all of the powers that it is accorded.

best wishes,
Brett

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:58 am

brettz9 wrote:Hello Dean and all,


...

The role of the Universal House of Justice, in the future, in removing the "temporary" appellation, would merely be applying the laws of Baha'u'llah according to the needs of the time, as it is charged to do--not arrogating to itself rights it did not possess (which again, per the quote from Shoghi Effendi above, it would not do).

...

best wishes,
Brett
the removing of the "temporary" appellation

Is it the responsibility of The Guardian to do so ... ???

or

Is it the responsibility of The Universal House of Justice to do so ... ???

We contend it is the responsibility of The Guardian to do so .

We contend the removing of the "temporary" appellation is an executive decision

after all it is The Executive who gave us this "temporary" appellation
it was not a legislative matter


Quote:

The interpretation of the Guardian, functioning within his own sphere, is as authoritative and binding as the enactments of the International House of Justice, whose exclusive right and prerogative is to pronounce upon and deliver the final judgment on such laws and ordinances as Bahá'u'lláh has not expressly revealed. Neither can, nor will ever, infringe upon the sacred and prescribed domain of the other. Neither will seek to curtail the specific and undoubted authority with which both have been divinely invested.

(Shoghi Effendi, World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 150

Can The interpretation of the Guardian be appealed ... ?
no

Can the The interpretation of the Guardian be legislated upon ... ?
yes ... that is why we can have new NSA's formed ... but not new Houses of Justices formed ...

Will there be a new Manifestation of God ... ??
yes

Will this new Manifestation be able to issue executive decisions ... ??
yes ... "He doeth whatsoever He willeth" ... He being a generic form of course

Is the removing of the "temporary" appellation an Executive or Legislative matter ... ???
the "temporary" appellation was issued by the Executive therefor can only be repelled by the Executive.

We are open to dialogue ...
What would happen if the Legislative repelled an Executive decision ... ??
{chaos and disorder would ensue}

We realize that these are just our own understandings.
We realize that others can and do have understandings other than these.
Readers know that individuals often clash over opinion.

We are open to dialogue concerning the removal of the "temporary" appellation issued by the Guardian

thank you

oneness,
dh

brettz9
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Re: House authority

Postby brettz9 » Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:06 am

Although the House of Justice is indeed more legislative, and the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha does allude to a separately functioning executive:

This House of Justice enacteth the laws and the government enforceth them. The legislative body must reinforce the executive, the executive must aid and assist the legislative body so that through the close union and harmony of these two forces, the foundation of fairness and justice may become firm and strong, that all the regions of the world may become even as Paradise itself.


..., the House also refers in its constitution to the supervising of the House even in executive matters:

This Administrative Order consists, on the one hand, of a series of elected councils, universal, secondary and local, in which are vested legislative, executive and judicial powers over the Bahá'í community and, on the other, of eminent and devoted believers appointed for the specific purposes of protecting and propagating the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh under the guidance of the Head of that Faith.


By the way, this is not even a new institution we are talking about (even that, they, as stated, have the power to add). This is simply a name...

That the Spiritual Assemblies of today will be replaced in time by the Houses of Justice, and are to all intents and purposes identical and not separate bodies, is abundantly confirmed by `Abdu'l-Bahá Himself. He has in fact in a Tablet addressed to the members of the first Chicago Spiritual Assembly, the first elected Bahá'í body instituted in the United States, referred to them as the members of the "House of Justice" for that city, and has thus with His own pen established beyond any doubt the identity of the present Bahá'í Spiritual Assemblies with the Houses of Justice referred to by Bahá'u'lláh.


Perhaps this statement also implies that it will already be existing by the time governments come to accept it:

In light of these facts alone it is evident that the growth of the Baha'i communities to the size where a non-Baha'i state would adopt the Faith as the State Religion, let alone to the point at which the State would accept the Law of God as its own law and the National House of Justice as its legislature, must be a supremely voluntary and democratic process.

at http://bahai-library.com/uhj/theocracy.html


Brett

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:46 am

" The legislative body must reinforce the executive, ... "

thus we have LSA'a not Houses of Justice

since our Faith is a World Faith,
not subject only to a certain region, sect
a "National House of Justice" seems very out of place to us
in fact ... other Nations may laugh/scorn such a presumption
into such a state that it would appear as non existent

thus we find the King of Soma
well protected

same principle should apply to our current question
to be well protected head the ""temporary" appellation

otherwise ... one would be tempting fate
perhaps to disastrous consequences

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:03 pm

brettz9 wrote:
... This is simply a name...

Brett


True .. to a certain extent ...

The question is who has the Power to name ?

does an individual have the power to name
to a certain extent individuals do have the power to name
one can name a rose by any other name and it would still smell as sweet
but most individuals would not know what you were talking about if you refereed to all roses as Tisha
*smile*

does an Assembly have the Power to name ...
sure ... but same principles apply as before

Does a nation have the Power to name
sure ... but same principles apply as before

Does The Universal House of Justice have the Power to name ?
only what is granted in The Constitution
unless proven otherwise ... perhaps like through Ammendments

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:40 pm

and ... what is granted ...

" ... the National Spiritual Assemblies, ..."

and ...

AMENDMENT

This Constitution may be amended by decision of the Universal House of Justice when the full membership is present.

hmmm ...

so perhaps naming is function of both The Universal House of Justice and The Guardian ...

therefore ... both The Universal House of Justice and The Guardian would have to be present to answer our naming question.
The Guardian already gave his answer "tempoarary" .. it is doubtful, almost unthinkable, that The Universal House of Justice would give any other answer ...

it is almost like we are waiting for "full membership" which , by some understandings, must include the lsa of Tehran.

*smile*

slava_sz
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Re: House authority

Postby slava_sz » Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:48 pm

Dear openence~2,
It looks that this issue is very important to you (Most active topic: House authority) would you please write a letter with your question to the Universal House of Justice and share with us their answer?

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:00 pm

slava_sz wrote:Dear openence~2,
It looks that this issue is very important to you (Most active topic: House authority) would you please write a letter with your question to the Universal House of Justice and share with us their answer?
at one point of this discussion
we had seriously thought about submitting our question to the Universal House of Justice


today

we do not feel the need to write about our question.

we are satisfied with the words of our Guardian
we are satisfied with the "temporary appellation,”

we are satisfied with our own reasoning as to who has Power to name

we pray that all will find personal satisfaction through the process of consultation

thank you for the suggestion
it is doubtful we will be writing
but will keep the suggestion open as a possibility

thanks again

and thanks to all whom hast helped us in our understandings.

*smile*

oneness,
dh

Keyvan
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Re: House authority

Postby Keyvan » Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:38 pm

the short answer is no.

The National and Local Assemblies will eventually evolve into Houses of Justice when the Universal House of Justice says so.

Its a very momentous step when that happens and I don't see any conceivable reason why the jurisdiction to do so would be anywhere outside the authority of the Universal House of Justice

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:30 am

Keyvan wrote:the short answer is no.

The National and Local Assemblies will eventually evolve into Houses of Justice when the Universal House of Justice says so.

Its a very momentous step when that happens and I don't see any conceivable reason why the jurisdiction to do so would be anywhere outside the authority of the Universal House of Justice


so an island ... the size of New Zealand

no matter how evolved ... no matter how advanced ...

has to remain a NSA ... no matter the distance of time ...

until such time as The Universal House of Justice says so ...
most likely through Amendment

Is this correct ...

A NSA has no Power to name itself a House of Justice ... ???
A LSA has no Power to name itself a House of Justice ... ???
An individual has no power to form a House of Justice ... ???

... What if a House of Justice is formed without consent of The Universal House of Justice ... ???
... Should all Assemblies just simply ignore this new House of Justice ... ???

brettz9
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Re: House authority

Postby brettz9 » Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:30 pm

One of the duties of the Universal House of Justice, per its Constitution is this:

...to be responsible for ensuring that no body or institution within the Cause abuse its privileges...


They also state:
The Universal House of Justice has the right to review any decision or action of any Spiritual Assembly, National or Local, and to approve, modify or reverse such decision or action. The Universal House of Justice also has the right to intervene in any matter in which a Spiritual Assembly is failing to take action or to reach a decision and, at its discretion, to require that action be taken, or itself to take action directly in the matter.


And one more quotation from this document:

...the Universal House of Justice is the Head of the Faith and its supreme institution, to which all must turn, and on it rests the ultimate responsibility for ensuring the unity and progress of the Cause of God.


Since the Universal House of Justice is, as 'Abdu'l-Baha promised, "the source of all good and freed from all error", we do not need to fear that they will fail to permit the legitimate process toward a Local and National Houses of Justice in the future (which again, for those newcomers to this discussion, would be "a supremely voluntary and democratic process." (See http://bahai-library.com/uhj/theocracy.html )). The National Spiritual Assemblies do have jurisdiction over their own regions (subject to the Universal House of Justice), but this would seem to be a pretty hefty decision to make on their own.

Here are some other quotations about the authority of the Universal House of Justice from the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha:

And now, concerning the House of Justice which God hath ordained as the source of all good and freed from all error, it must be elected by universal suffrage, that is, by the believers. ... By this House is meant the Universal House of Justice, that is, in all countries a secondary House of Justice must be instituted, and these secondary Houses of Justice must elect the members of the Universal one. Unto this body all things must be referred.


Unto the Most Holy Book every one must turn, and all that is not expressly recorded therein must be referred to the Universal House of Justice. That which this body, whether unanimously or by a majority doth carry, that is verily the truth and the purpose of God Himself. Whoso doth deviate therefrom is verily of them that love discord, hath shown forth malice, and turned away from the Lord of the Covenant. By this House is meant that Universal House of Justice which is to be elected from all countries, that is from those parts in the East and West where the loved ones are to be found, after the manner of the customary elections in Western countries such as those of England.


and

The sacred and youthful branch, the Guardian of the Cause of God, as well as the Universal House of Justice to be universally elected and established, are both under the care and protection of the Abhá Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance of the Exalted One (may my life be offered up for them both). Whatsoever they decide is of God. Whoso obeyeth him not, neither obeyeth them, hath not obeyed God; whoso rebelleth against him and against them hath rebelled against God; whoso opposeth him hath opposed God; whoso contendeth with them hath contended with God; whoso disputeth with him hath disputed with God; whoso denieth him hath denied God; whoso disbelieveth in him hath disbelieved in God; whoso deviateth, separateth himself and turneth aside from him hath in truth deviated, separated himself and turned aside from God. May the wrath, the fierce indignation, the vengeance of God rest upon him!


and

All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error.


best wishes,
Brett

onepence~2
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:47 pm

brettz9 wrote:

... The National Spiritual Assemblies do have jurisdiction over their own regions (subject to the Universal House of Justice), but this would seem to be a pretty hefty decision to make on their own.

..

Brett


yes ... a pretty hefty decision ...

we contend that the only action that can be proven to be completely loyal to God is that which is stated in our Constitution,
therefore jurisdictional Power must remain with NSA's and not with those whom in the future might wish to create or rename jurisdictional Power into Houses of Justice ...

... a pretty hefty question ... with a pretty hefty decision ...

cuz ... we actually find it very tempting to want to name/create Houses of Justice ... but ...
we now realize that this Power is not one that, if an indivdual wants to remain loyal to the Constitution is able to do.

no matter what the circumstance ...
no matter place , time or duration,

we urge all to study and learn our Constitution

*smile*

1
dh

coatofmanycolours
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Re: House authority

Postby coatofmanycolours » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:42 pm

Onepence; You repeatedly mention decisions which cannot be made by the Universal House of Justice.

You also mention that,
"...therefore ... both The Universal House of Justice and The Guardian would have to be present to
answer our naming question."

You suggest that,
"We do think it is possible that an independent and Sovereign Power, such as a President or King or
Apostle, might one day call a current LSA or NSA a House of Justice..."

Apostle? What Apostle?

Now, when I put together what you have said, I smell a subtle suggestion coming from you.

Are you saying that another Guardian is in the wings somewhere?

Are you hinting that the rest of us should realize this? "smile" "smile" "smile" "wink" "wink" "wink"

I hope I have read you wrong, because otherwise something in your words smells bad.

-Peter

onepence~2
Posts: 221
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:07 pm

coatofmanycolours wrote:Onepence;

...

I hope I have read you wrong, because otherwise something in your words smells bad.

-Peter


Yes ... you are reading me wrong ...

so far ... you are the only one that deeply questions by style of writing ...

and for this i am grateful to you ...

for it is very interesting to see another view ...

... as far as The Apostle ... i was referring to a Future Manifestation of God ...

such as ... "Upon him rest forever the glory of God and the glory of all that dwell in the kingdom of His revelation."

full quote ...

"Let nothing grieve thee, O Land of Tá, 2 for God hath chosen thee to be the source of the joy of all mankind. He shall, if it be His Will, bless thy throne with one who will rule with justice, who will gather together the flock of God which the wolves have scattered. Such a ruler will, with joy and gladness, turn his face towards, and extend his favours unto, the people of Bahá. He indeed is accounted in the sight of God as a jewel among men. Upon him rest forever the glory of God and the glory of all that dwell in the kingdom of His revelation."

in our minds ... and history should bear witness ... there is a huge difference between our Guardian and an Apostle ...

history also bears witness to "The Church of the Holy Apostles"

often Christians refer to themselves as the Apostles of Christ

we contend it is praiseworthy to strive to be an Apostle of Baha'ullah ,
and blameworthy to strive to be a Guardian.

Sen McGlinn
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Re: House authority

Postby Sen McGlinn » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:12 am

onepence~2 wrote:Hi brettz9,
you assert a belief that
Our belief is based upon the explicit text of our Kitab Aqdas and the notes
as supplied by The Universal House of Justice

"Local and Secondary Houses of Justice are, for the present, known as Local Spiritual Assemblies and National Spiritual Assemblies. Shoghi Effendi has indicated that this is a "temporary appellation" which ... "

We do not think there is a legitimate way for The Universal House of Justice to legislate upon any religious doctrine , especially any religious doctrine that The Guardian did not approve of.

The Guardian only approved of the terms of Local Spiritual Assemblies and National Spiritual Assemblies.

Now that the office of Guardian is vacant there can be no legitimate way to use any terms other than what has already been approved.
dh


It was not Shoghi Effendi who decided on this temporary appelation, but Abdu'l-Baha:

The signature of that meeting should be the Spiritual Gathering (House of Spirituality) and the wisdom therein is that hereafter the government should not infer from the term "House of Justice" that a court is signified, that it is connected with political affairs, or that at any time it will interfere with governmental affairs.
Hereafter, enemies will be many. They would use this subject as a cause for disturbing the mind of the government and confusing the thoughts of the public. The intention was to make known that by the term Spiritual Gathering (House of Spirituality), that Gathering has not the least connection with material matters, and that its whole aim and consultation is confined to matters connected with spiritual affairs. This was also instructed (performed) in all Persia.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 5)


By your reasoning, since the Master made the change, only the Master could change it back? But that is not how the Guardian reasoned: at a time when the Master was already dead, so no change was possible from that quarter, the Guardian wrote:

That the Spiritual Assemblies of today will be replaced in time by the Houses of Justice, and are to all intents and purposes identical and not separate bodies, is abundantly confirmed by 'Abdu'l-Bahá Himself. ... For reasons which are not difficult to discover, [see the tablet from Abdu'l-Baha above] it has been found advisable to bestow ... the temporary appellation of Spiritual Assemblies, a term which, as the position and aims of the Bahá'í Faith are better understood and more fully recognized, will gradually be superseded by the permanent and more appropriate designation of House of Justice. (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 6)


He did not say that only he could make the change, he just says it will happen gradually.

onepence~2
Posts: 221
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Re: House authority

Postby onepence~2 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:46 pm

it appears the Question still remains with no clear uniformed answer that all can agree upon ...

The Question being ...

Who has the Authority to rename a LSA a House of Justice.

We contend that the only legal way is by amendment to The Constitution of The Universal House of Justice,
of course there are other methods of how a LSA can be renamed that can be tested over a period of time.

oneness
dh


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