A prophet may come before the end of a thousand years

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farid
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A prophet may come before the end of a thousand years

Postby farid » Sat May 21, 2005 1:01 am

The belief of finality of the teachings or prophet of a certain religion has been a test for all major faiths. It brings to mind this problem that what Bahai's will be tested on if they are not being tested by this. They don't believe that their prophet is the last prophet or that Bahai teachings won't ever change.
On ther other hand, the higher the level , the harder the test. So not only should we learn from past and be ready for such tests, but we also have to be cautious that we may be tested harder.
It seems a good test that a prophet comes before the end of a thousand years mentioned in kitab Aqdas, and most Bahais be mislead due to this but those who are ready spiritually and can see the truth of the prophet because of its light and beauty and not other things. I will give my reasons on how this can be if I see anybody interested on the issue.
Farid

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Re: A prophet may come before the end of a thousand years

Postby Hasan » Sat May 21, 2005 10:58 am

farid wrote:The belief of finality of the teachings or prophet of a certain religion has been a test for all major faiths. It brings to mind this problem that what Bahai's will be tested on if they are not being tested by this. They don't believe that their prophet is the last prophet or that Bahai teachings won't ever change.
On ther other hand, the higher the level , the harder the test. So not only should we learn from past and be ready for such tests, but we also have to be cautious that we may be tested harder.
It seems a good test that a prophet comes before the end of a thousand years mentioned in kitab Aqdas, and most Bahais be mislead due to this but those who are ready spiritually and can see the truth of the prophet because of its light and beauty and not other things. I will give my reasons on how this can be if I see anybody interested on the issue.
Farid


Dear Farid,

I think you took a big issue. First, I personally believe that next Prophet will irreparably suffer as always is when a Prophet comes.

The Prophecy of "one thousand years" is clear about the quantity of years, i.e. 1,000 years, but what years, lunar or solar? It is mentioned that it has to be count as both solar (Bahá'í Calendar) and lunar (Quran) Calendars.

God’s Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh came when He was in the Siyah-Chal from October 15th 1852 to January 1853 AD, or 1269 AH, or year 9 of Bahá’í Era.

Now, if we add "1,000" years for both calendars, for lunar years it is 1269 + 1,000 years = 2269 AH or 2823 AD or year 979-980 of BE. For solar years it is 1852-53 AD + 1000 years = 2852-53 AD or 2299-2300 AH, or 1009 of BE (here we see two important numbers 2300 and 9).

Shoghi Effendi interprets the next words of Bahá'u'lláh about next Prophet:

"As to the meaning of the quotation. 'My fears are for Him Who will be sent down unto you after Me'. this refers to the Manifestation Who is to come after a thousand or more years, Who like all previous Messengers of God will be subjected to persecutions, but will eventually triumph over them. For men of ill-will have been and will always continue to be in this world, unless mankind reaches a state of complete and absolute perfection -- a condition which is not only improbable but actually impossible to attain. The fundamental difference, however, between this Dispensation and all previous ones is this, that in this Revelation the possibility of permanent schism between the followers of the Prophet has been prevented through the direct and explicit instructions providing for the necessary instruments designed to maintain the organic unity of the body of the faithful."
(From letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States and Canada, December 1 1934, Bahá'í News. No. 89. p. 1 January 1935)

So, there is no a fall in this Dispensation as previous ones, but there are always bad people in the world. An example: if the next Manifestation come in year previous of 2852 AD, many people will see Him as a "lying impostor", but, I wonder if this prophecy's count is according the Quran or Bayan years, or both? i.e. for solar and lunar years? how is this like?

The paragraph 37 of the Aqdas states this:
Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things.

If before of 2852 AD a person claim to be this Prophet, and some people deal mercilessly with him , many people would believe that this people is ok, because Bahá’u’lláh said that “God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him”. But, this attitude is too bad, we should no make dogmas as Muslim theologians who deal mercilessly with the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh.

I would like to know how 1,000 years could correspond to lunar and solar years? Maybe any Bahá'í of the Forum knows about it? Jonah, Brett anyone?

For example, we know that the Twin Births of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh will celebrate in the same day when the Bahá’í Calendar be adopted, because they born in the same day of lunar Muslim calendar. All the adaptations of Bahá'í Calendar will be made by the House of Justice, and until that, there is no point of reference.

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Postby farid » Sat May 21, 2005 2:34 pm

Hasan

Thanks for your attention and your notes. I don't see anything wrong with a prophet coming at anytime before the end of a 1000 years; it can be 100 years before 1000 years, it can be 100 years from today, or it can be tomorrow. Humans in my opinion have had a jump in their developmental stages at our time. They are at maturation age , and the craziness' of the world today are signs of the adolescent age. when they pass this critical age and start to be educated more and more by Bahai teachings, they will be at a quite differnt stage compared to people of other dispensations. All this brings with it harder tests, suitable for people of that time. Now I see this issue as a good test for them. I am not saying that it will happen this way that the next prophet will come well before 1000 years;all I am saying is that it's possible to happen. I think that when this happens, many Bahais will not even try to hear what he says knowing for sure that he is false, almost the same way that Muslims deny Bahai faith and don't bother to read a book to see for themselves.
I think this attitude is wrong, very wrong. Even UHJ cannot be sought as a help at this. since they don't have the authority to judge over this issue. They have clear domain of activities and this is not one of them. In the same way that In Islam fundemental issues of religion cannot be followed , but eveyone is responsible to seek it, UHJ shouldn't be followed or listened to as a source in this issue. I know many who read this will have questions to ask me, so I wait till I read them to talk about it more.

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Postby Jonah » Sat May 21, 2005 3:51 pm

I would like to know how 1,000 years could correspond to lunar and solar years?


Solar, I believe.

From http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/b ... notes.html :
<b><a name="n62">62</a>. Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years 37</b><br>The Dispensation of <a href="http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/aqdas/glossary.html#Bahaullah"> Baha'u'llah</a> will last until the coming of the next Manifestation of God, Whose advent will not
take place before at least <i> "a full thousand years"</i> will have elapsed. Baha'u'llah cautions against ascribing to <i> "this verse"</i> anything other than its <i> "obvious meaning"</i>, and in one of His Tablets, He specifies that <i> "each year"</i> of this thousand year period consists of <i> "twelve months according to the Qur'an, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the <a href="http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/aqdas/glossary.html#Bayan"> Bayan</a>"</i>.<br> The intimation of His Revelation to Baha'u'llah in the <a href="http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/aqdas/glossary.html#Siyah_Chal">Siyah-Chal</a> of Tihran, in October 1852, marks the birth of His Prophetic Mission and hence the commencement of the one thousand years or more that must elapse before the appearance of the next Manifestation of God.


Stephen Lambden thinks it's solar. From http://bahai-library.com/resources/tabl ... notes.html :
As in the Kitab-i Aqdas Baha'u'llah makes the appearance of a succeeding Manifestation of God impossible before the expiration of a millennium. The 1,000 year chronology should not be subject to any kind of interpretation whether based on a literal reading (tafsír) or an allegorical type of interpretation in which meaning is imposed (= eisegesis) on the text. "Year" means a complete (presumably solar) year not something else.


And there are some other discussions re "years" (though not directly related to this issue) at http://bahai-library.com/uhj/beckwith.d ... phecy.html

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Postby Hasan » Sat May 21, 2005 3:53 pm

Farid,

1000 years not 100 years! yes, "one thousand years".

The authority of the House is unchallengeable, don't mix the things. The House is not an Institution created by men, but it is created by Bahá'u'lláh Himself, in fact, all the machinery of the New World Worder is created by the Manifestation of God.

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Postby farid » Sat May 21, 2005 7:20 pm

1-the authority of the UHJ is only on its domain of activities; this issue is not in the domain. You also see on many other issues that when UHJ or even guardian were asked on something, they would would say as an answer that they did'nt know the answer. Their authority doesn't mean that they know all the answers or can rule on any issue.
2- even this authority (whith its limitations) , exists only at most till the moment that the next prophet manifests him/herself . from that moment on, they do'nt have any authority. so after one person manifests himself as a prophet, falsly or truely, we cannot look at UHJ as before, unless we solve the truth of that person first, and we cannot seek guidance from UHJ , since in case that person is true, then UHJ will not be a source with any authority,since they have expired.
3-UHJ is infallible as long as they are elected with all the rules of Bahai election observed. If this election doesn't take place the way it should, then the condition for their infallibility is lost. when the new prophet manifests himself, its possible that we have a UHJ that is not infallible any more. In this case , we cannot solely rely on what UHJ will tell us.

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Postby majnun » Sat May 21, 2005 9:10 pm

I think monsieur Farid has an open mind on this.
While Abdul Baha said when ready a prophet will come,
BUT, he will teach the same basic teachings of Baha'u'llah.

A person named Meher Baba enforce the same 7 basic
steps as in the 7 Valleys into his spiritual program, and
much closer to us in time, prophet Rael enforces the same
7 basic steps as in the 7 Valleys into the spriritual program.

I dont know if many others do offer a similar program.
For me, wheather group A, B, and C teach the same things,
what count is the final result, that we will all be a part of a
group, or family, of humans who's brains and consciousness'
are developped by the same basic program.

I remember when the bab was announced by the Qur'an:
From 1267 ah, do not enter by only one door (bab), but by many doors...
The book written by monsieur Gabteni are also
mind openers, even if there is a lot of numbers involved.

Majnun

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Postby Hasan » Sun May 22, 2005 1:52 am

Jonah wrote: Solar, I believe...
Stephen Lambden thinks it's solar. From http://bahai-library.com/resources/tabl ... notes.html :


Dear Jonah, thanks to write, I also think solar years, but, what about this quote: "twelve months according to the Qur'án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán". So these calendars are different, one is lunar, the other is solar. According the Qur’an there are twelve LUNAR months, 354 days in a year approximate. Solar years are 19 months of 19 days plus 5 intercalary days, making 365 days approximate.

1st of Muharram 1269 AH is 15 October 1852, this time when Bahá'u'lláh was in the Siyah-Chal, if we add 1,000 lunar years the result is 1st Muharram 2269 AH or (5) January 2823 AD or 979-80 BE.

If we add 1,000 solar years to October 1852 AD, it is October 2852 AD or 1,009 BE.

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Postby Hasan » Sun May 22, 2005 2:57 am

Dear Farid,

I think it had never been easy and will never be easy for people to recognize the station of the Prophet as the Íqán says, there are always tests by means of God discern the true believers.

I can imagine the situation in year 2823 or 2852 AD maybe some people filled of ambition of power (a messianic lunacy) ready to create groups and division claiming to be the next Manifestation of God, undermining the authority of the House which is unchallengeable.

We have to understand that "the fundamental difference, however, between this Dispensation and all previous ones is this, that in this Revelation the possibility of permanent schism between the followers of the Prophet has been prevented through the direct and explicit instructions providing for the necessary instruments designed to maintain the organic unity of the body of the faithful." (Shoghi Effendi)

I think that the House of Justice has the power to determine by means of legislation its disposition to accept the station and supremacy of the next Prophet as they are under Divine guidance. Prior to that recognition (maybe through all kinds of tests and examinations of prophetic qualities, and in consultation with the learned in Bahá) his authority is unchallengeable. The House will put its powers at His disposition, as we know; the Will of God is one, not two which contradicts each other, which is a natural law. This recognition could happen in one thousand years exactly or much more, until that the obedience to the House is inescapable for bahá’ís.

No matter, what happens, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá emphatically say us: “The substance is, that prior to the completion of a thousand years, no individual may presume to breathe a word. All must consider themselves to be of the order of subjects, submissive and obedient to the commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice. Should any deviate by so much as a needle's point from the decrees of the Universal House of Justice, or falter in his compliance therewith, then is he of the outcast and rejected.(Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Bahá, p. 67)

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Postby farid » Sun May 22, 2005 2:08 pm

Although nobody asked me how this might be that contradictory to clear words of writings I am saying that a prophet may come anytime during this 1000 years, I write about one of the few possible scenarios here:

the first thing that might happen is what in Arabic is called "badaa"
, or a change in God's plan . At frist pages of Kitab Iqan , we read:

"Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. ... Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books"
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 7)
(emphases are from me)

I don't see why the same thing cannot happen here. There is no lie -God or prophet have not lied to people. It's only a change of plan. There is no interpretation of writings done also.
Also its the first way mentioned in Kitab Iqan of the ways that God has tested people, which can be meaningful and show its importance.

Hasan, you didn't ask me how I am saying what seems contradictory to writings, instead you just repeated the writings a couple of times . Also I metioned three reasons that UHJ cannot be sought as a guide on this issue. I don't know if you got my points and disagreed, or simply you didn't .
So if you have any problem with them, please write about it, but if you don't, then how can you say that UHJ will have authority in this issue?

farid

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Postby Dawud » Sun May 22, 2005 7:13 pm

Hey, here's a thought. Maybe Rael (that crazy French UFO guy, got in the news recently for claiming to clone people) IS your next prophet, and you're all going to hell for rejecting him! Except Majnun, who is going to hell for comparing him with Meher Baba. :D

Well, it makes as much sense as anything else in this Wonderland of religious prophecy...

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Postby Hasan » Mon May 23, 2005 1:43 am

farid wrote:1-the authority of the UHJ is only on its domain of activities; this issue is not in the domain. You also see on many other issues that when UHJ or even guardian were asked on something, they would would say as an answer that they did'nt know the answer. Their authority doesn't mean that they know all the answers or can rule on any issue.
2- even this authority (whith its limitations) , exists only at most till the moment that the next prophet manifests him/herself . from that moment on, they do'nt have any authority. so after one person manifests himself as a prophet, falsly or truely, we cannot look at UHJ as before, unless we solve the truth of that person first, and we cannot seek guidance from UHJ , since in case that person is true, then UHJ will not be a source with any authority,since they have expired.
3-UHJ is infallible as long as they are elected with all the rules of Bahai election observed. If this election doesn't take place the way it should, then the condition for their infallibility is lost. when the new prophet manifests himself, its possible that we have a UHJ that is not infallible any more. In this case , we cannot solely rely on what UHJ will tell us.


Ok, Farid I'd like to comment on your three "reasons" of why the House has no authority in this case.

1) The authority of the House includes legislative, judicial and executive functions. The writings demand obedience to the House, and they have the task to recognize the station of the next Prophet, until that, we have to obey them (see Selection of Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, p.67).

2) You say that when a Prophet comes the House will not recognize Him, and therefore we have not to obey them? This thinking insinuates that the House is not under Divine guidance. Divine guidance means guidance from God, could you imagine two contradictory sources of guidance which comes from the same God? When 'Abdul-Bahá says we have to obey the House we have to (or do you think we don't have to obey the House?).

3) The election? Why you mention this? I suppose you think there will be divisions, and these divisions in the Bahá’í community would affect the election of the House as before? I think this is one reason of why ‘Abdu’l-Bahá ordains us to obey the House. I don’t think there will be division, I repeat again the quote of the Guardian: "the fundamental difference, however, between this Dispensation and all previous ones is this, that in this Revelation the possibility of permanent schism between the followers of the Prophet has been prevented through the direct and explicit instructions providing for the necessary instruments designed to maintain the organic unity of the body of the faithful". This is “the day which is not followed by night” (Bible). I think the House posses "infallibility" and only applies in legislation; legislating in matters not covered by the book, elucidating questions which are obscure, and caused differences (statutes of special provision), and introductory laws. The authority of the House is not based in its infallibility. This issue could be easily a question obscure not covered by the Book.

farid wrote:Although nobody asked me how this might be that contradictory to clear words of writings I am saying that a prophet may come anytime during this 1000 years…


I am surprised that you don’t even agree that the next Prophet will come after 1,000 years, in spite of the explicit statements of Bahá’u’lláh, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi. If you don’t believe this, how could you understand other things based on this? When you think it is possible that next Prophet will come before 1,000 years you have no base in the writings.

Finally, I maintain my thinking that when a Prophet comes it is never easy for people to recognize Him, there are always tests, maybe the next Prophet for His “own will” wants to suffer to prove true and false people, but to say what kind of test will come, is in this time presumptuous. It is possible that parallel to the next Prophet there will be arrogant and shameless people hungry for power claiming to be next Manifestation, many bad people would injure the next Prophet as Bahá’u’lláh lamented on this, but at the end He will triumph over this.

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Postby farid » Mon May 23, 2005 12:12 pm

Hasan
thanks for taking your time and helping me in understanding this issue better, I hope other viewers also contribute, after all this is what a discussion board is for.


1- hasan, you said :
they have the task to recognize the station of the next Prophet

can you tell me where in the writings you have seen this? there is no mention of this issue in the reference you have given( :Selection of Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, p.67 )

2- you asked me:
You say that when a Prophet comes the House will not recognize Him, and therefore we have not to obey them?

no, I didn't say this, I did'nt say that this is the reason we should not follow them. I think what I said was quite clear. I said the House will expire the second that the next prophet manifests. In other words , their time is up then. Like a medicine that expires at a certain time. After that the divine guidace will be taken away from them. UHJ is established to function in the dispensation of Bahaullah, but the dispensation of bahaullah ends when the next prophet comes:

"The Dispensation of Baha'u'llah will last until the coming of the next Manifestation of God"
(Baha'u'llah: Aqdas: Notes, Page: 195)

as a result , UHJ will also end at that very moment.

3- you said :
I suppose you think there will be divisions, and these divisions in the Bahá’í community would affect the election of the House as before?

Again, this is not what I said. There does'nt have to be any division for this to happen. Why there has to be a division for the election not to be carried out in the right way? There can be many cases in which elections will be tampered with. No worldly way is perfect. Are you saying that there can't be any cheating in Bahai election? where have you seen such a thing? if there was such an assurance, then why do you see the condition put here?:

"For instance, the Universal House of Justice,(1) if it be established under the necessary conditions - with members elected from all the people - that House of Justice will be under the protection and the unerring guidance of God."
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Page: 172)
(emphasis from me)

4- you said
I am surprised that you don’t even agree that the next Prophet will come after 1,000 years, in spite of the explicit statements of Bahá’u’lláh, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi.


I don't know why it surprises you when I explained one of my reasons for saying that. You didn't mention anything about my scenario of "badaa".
you said :
...in spite of the explicit statements of Bahá’u’lláh, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi

now this is my question: wasn't Noah's words about coming of the flood explicit?
again:

"He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof".
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 7)

What this writing tells me is that:
a-he was very clear, since he even set the time for them.
b-it happend several times, not just one time.

and his promises were not fulfilled in spite of being clear

so if the people of that time were tested this way, why people of our time which are much more developled can't be tested the same way?

farid

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Postby Hasan » Mon May 23, 2005 5:53 pm

Dear Farid, I would like to clarify what I mean.

1- I said: they have the task to recognize the station of the next Prophet

Had they the task to elucidate that there cannot be another Guardian? Of course!, I interpret that they also have the task to elucidate obscure matters not covered by the Book including the coming of next Prophet.

2- I asked you: when a Prophet comes the House will not recognize Him, and therefore we have not to obey them?
I made clear this, saying that there cannot be two different “divine guidance”, the next Prophet will be obviously aware that the House exists, there is no contradiction what I said and the note of the Aqdas: “The Dispensation of Baha’u’llah will last until the coming of the next Manifestation of God”. I discern from the text of the interpretation of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá that He made clear the obedience to the House anytime. I don’t think this obedience will leave the people astray.

3- You said: Are you saying that there can't be any cheating in Bahai election? where have you seen such a thing? if there was such an assurance, then why do you see the condition put here?

No, I am talking about the rules of procedure, not the spirit of election (which is unverifiable). This thinking would insinuate that there is no guarantee to say that the House is infallible at anytime. I’d like to put again what you said, your “third reason”:
UHJ is infallible as long as they are elected with all the rules of Bahai election observed. If this election doesn't take place the way it should, then the condition for their infallibility is lost. when the new prophet manifests himself, its possible that we have a UHJ that is not infallible any more. In this case , we cannot solely rely on what UHJ will tell us.


The House, obviously lost their infallibility if they will not recognize the next Prophet and put their powers to His disposition. By the way, about the “election” I am interpreting your same words: “If this election doesn't take place the way it should, then the condition for their infallibility is lost”, then I imagined one possible cause to your thinking (secularization which is not possible). I don’t think the spiritual attitudes of election can be verified, but on the contrary the rules of the procedure are verifiable. I would like to put all this quote of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in SAQ for better understanding.

But acquired infallibility is not a natural necessity; on the contrary, it is a ray of the bounty of infallibility which shines from the Sun of Reality upon hearts, and grants a share and portion of itself to souls. Although these souls have not essential infallibility, still they are under the protection of God -- that is to say, God preserves them from error. Thus many of the holy beings who were not dawning-points of the Most Great Infallibility, were yet kept and preserved from error under the shadow of the protection and guardianship of God, for they were the mediators of grace between God and men. If God did not protect them from error, their error would cause believing souls to fall into error, and thus the foundation of the Religion of God would be overturned, which would not be fitting nor worthy of God.

To epitomize: essential infallibility belongs especially to the supreme Manifestations, and acquired infallibility is granted to every holy soul. For instance, the Universal House of Justice, if it be established under the necessary conditions -- with members elected from all the people -- that House of Justice will be under the protection and the unerring guidance of God. If that House of Justice shall decide unanimously, or by a majority, upon any question not mentioned in the Book, that decision and command will be guarded from mistake. Now the members of the House of Justice have not, individually, essential infallibility; but the body of the House of Justice is under the protection and unerring guidance of God: this is called conferred infallibility.


4- You said: I don't know why it surprises you when I explained one of my reasons for saying that. You didn't mention anything about my scenario of "badaa".

This “badaa” should not be applied in this case, just because ‘Abdu’l-Bahá interpreted this many times what this prophecy means saying again that one (or more) thousand years is intended. I and all the Bahá'ís should have to consider the interpretation of the Master. Moreover, I could think that you are interpreting this verse saying it is "badaa", as you know interpretation of this verse is forbidden, I am satisfied with the interpretation of the Master, aren’t you?

We have, for example “Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Bahá” #33:

33. O servant of God! We have noted what thou didst write to Jinab-i-Ibn-Abhar, and thy question regarding the verse: 'Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor.'

The meaning of this is that any individual who, before the expiry of a full thousand years -- years known and clearly established by common usage and requiring no interpretation -- should lay claim to a Revelation direct from God, even though he should reveal certain signs, that man is assuredly false and an impostor.

This is not a reference to the Universal Manifestation, for it is clearly set forth in the Holy Writings that centuries, nay thousands of years, must pass on to completion, before a Manifestation like unto this Manifestation shall appear again.

It is possible, however, that after the completion of a full thousand years, certain Holy Beings will be empowered to deliver a Revelation: this, however, will not be through a Universal Manifestation. Wherefore every day of the cycle of the Blessed Beauty is in reality equal to one year, and every year of it is equal to a thousand years. 68

Consider, for example, the sun: its transit from one zodiacal sign to the next occurreth within a short period of time, yet only after a long period doth it attain the plenitude of its resplendency, its heat and glory, in the sign of Leo. It must first complete one full revolution through the other constellations before it will enter the sign of Leo again, to blaze out in its full splendour. In its other stations, it revealeth not the fullness of its heat and light.

The substance is, that prior to the completion of a thousand years, no individual may presume to breathe a word. All must consider themselves to be of the order of subjects, submissive and obedient to the commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice. Should any deviate by so much as a needle's point from the decrees of the Universal House of Justice, or falter in his compliance therewith, then is he of the outcast and rejected.

As to the cycle of the Blessed Beauty -- the times of the Greatest Name -- this is not limited to a thousand or two thousand years....

When it is said that the period of a thousand years beginneth with the Manifestation of the Blessed Beauty and every day thereof is a thousand years, the intent is a reference to the cycle of the Blessed Beauty, which in this context will extend over many ages into the unborn reaches of time.



About Noah’s promise: Farid, Did you have realized the reason of why the promise of Noah was not fulfilled? I think you encase this reason in the “scenario of badaa” alone, if you have more to tell, please explain us what this reason is.

Truly, I have not yet deepening in the way Bahá’u’lláh requires to understand that reason. Let’s see all the quote of the Íqán:

“And now, consider and reflect a moment upon the waywardness of this people. What could have been the reason for such denial and avoidance on their part? What could have induced them to refuse to put off the garment of denial, and to adorn themselves with the robe of acceptance? Moreover, what could have caused the nonfulfilment of the divine promise which led the seekers to reject that which they had accepted? Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: "Do men think when 9 they say 'We believe' they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?"[1]
[1 Qur'án 29:2.]

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Postby farid » Mon May 23, 2005 7:47 pm

I hope others will also contribute. Thanks Hasan for being the only one helping me here.

1- you said : "I interpret that they also have the task to elucidate... "

a-So its just your thought; in other words you have nowhere seen this being mentioned as one of the tasks of UHJ. Well, I would say so at least you shouldn't be so sure about it then.
I would imagine that since denying the prophets has always been the biggest plague of religions, if house were to do any good in this, Bahais must have been adviced to follow them or this duty of them must have been mentioned somewhere.

b- "...obscure matters not covered by the Book including the coming of next Prophet."

I agree with you here, but what you are saying in fact proves my point.
As you know prophets of God are likened to sun. they are not obsure matters. You don't inquire about the light of sun from stars. As you have read in Iqan, stars fall down from the sky when the sun comes.
Why don't you instead of asking the House, open your eyes to see the truth of the prophet.
let me give you some examples:
-- Bab asked Mulla Hosein not to talk about him to anybody. Since all the letters of Hai had to find and recognize him by their own effort.
-- the fact that seyed kazem rashti passed away shortly before manifestaion of Bab is also a good example. why didn't God keep him alive to help all his followers, or if he knew, why didn't tell anybody before he passed away?
-- why first Bab was martyred and then Bahaullah manifested himself?
--why didn't Bab while alive show who the next prophet would be?

all these example and many more show that in order to recognize the manifestaion of God, you have to use your own eyes, not the eyes of others.
Manifestaion of God dosn't need the verification of the UHJ or any other person. the next manifestaion of God is Bahaullah in tuth, since all the prophets are one. UHJ gets its light from Bahallah , not the other way around.

2- you said :"I made clear this, saying that there cannot be two different “divine guidance” "
this is what I also said, I said that by coming of the next prophet, the time of UHJ will be up, so they are no longer a divine quidance, so you do'nt have two divine quidances, you have just one. UHJ will be like those stars that fall form the sky.

3-"I discern from the text of the interpretation of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá that He made clear the obedience to the House anytime."

this "anytime" refers to anytime before coming of the next prophet. In other words, it refers to any time in the dispensation of Bahaullha.
when the next prophet comes, you don't need UHJ anymore. You did't even need UHJ when the Master or Guadian were alive. How can you need UHJ when Bahaullah comes back? you don't even care about the candle when the sun is shining, and you don't seek the truth of sun from candle.
Although we have to obey all of them , but they are at different levels. you know how master comared himself to Bahaullah , saying that I am only his servant. you know over and over guardian claims lack of knowlege in a particular issue , since there is no mention of it in writings.
To me it seems quite clear that this "anytime" doesn't mean for eternity. since the next prophet of God can do whatever he likes.

4-"This thinking would insinuate that there is no guarantee to say that the House is infallible at anytime."
yes, I believe only God knows the truth . We don't have anyway to know this.

5-"but on the contrary the rules of the procedure are verifiable"

I don't know how you say this. How can you be sure that in an election held worldwide, everything has been done the way it should have?
As I said, our worldy ways, no matter how advanced , are still imperfect.
Only God will know the truth of things. Have you ever seen anywhere in writings this thing mentioned that in Bahai elections there is no possiblity that some rules won't be observed? that there is no possibility of any kind of mistake?
if you show me such a thing in the writings, I will then agree with you.

6-"This “badaa” should not be applied in this case, just because ‘Abdu’l-Bahá interpreted this many times what this prophecy means saying again that one (or more) thousand years is intended."

a-the number of times doesn't make any difference here. why? because Abdulbaha was explaining the plan of God when it was mentioned in the writing of Bahaullah. Bada means, that plan of God can change.
so although the plan of God at that time was that no prophet comes before 1000 years, this plan can change later. God is the one who plans at the first place, and he can change it whenver he wants.
you also saw in the case of Noah that he did it "several times".
God was telling Noah , that eg in this day, this time, there will come a flood, go and tell your people about it. Now if people had asked Noah what it means, he could explain it over and over and elucidate it that it means that literally a flood will come at that time.

b-the clarity of the language of the master doesn't also change it. Noah's language was also quite clear. In other words, God's plan was quite clear. but no matter how clear it is, it does'nt mean that it cannot change.

7-"Moreover, I could think that you are interpreting this verse saying it is "badaa""
I was surprised reading this Hasan. Interpretaion(tawil) means that you change the apparent meaning of something and say that another indirect thing has been intended from it. Did I do this? I clearly said that God's plan was exactly what we read in this writing, without any interpretaion, but this plan can change. Because God can do what he desires.
(yafalo ma yasha)

8-"About Noah’s promise: Farid, Did you have realized the reason of why the promise of Noah was not fulfilled? "

I realized it , because Bahaullha explains it in the best possible way in Iqan. He explains what most of the clergies of other religions have not understood yet. He explains why at the surface, Jesus was born due to her mother's sin, why Moses killed someone and as stattering, and why Badaa happened in Noah's promises. I think we should try to see how we can use all these and what their implications are for us, instead of just looking at them as mere histroy.

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Postby Hasan » Tue May 24, 2005 12:48 am

farid wrote:I hope others will also contribute. Thanks Hasan for being the only one helping me here.


No problem, all your questions help us to pour light in this issue, but to be honest I am getting tired, I have also write widely about the same issue in other topic in this same forum.

farid wrote:So its just your thought; in other words you have nowhere seen this being mentioned as one of the tasks of UHJ. Well, I would say so at least you shouldn't be so sure about it then.


Yes, it is my interpretation, I draw it from the fact that the obedience to the House is indispensable and obligatory, I don't think this obedience will astray the believers and I think also that by virtue of its unerring guidance the Bahá'í community is permanently in possession of an institution that by its legislation ensures "the continuity of that divinely-appointed authority which flows from the Source of our Faith" and safeguards "the unity of its followers." By its legislation the House reflects us the Will of God Himself and guidance of Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb. This connection makes impossible the “badaa” you mention, so, if you think that “badaa” applies on this, then, bahá’ís would doubt about the House authority when so far three crazy people claim to be Manifestation of God and also bahá’ís wold doubt about everything in this Dispensation because all the Words of the Twin Manifestations, all the interpretations of the authorized Interpreters (‘Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi) would be uncertainty, and the Faith will be a Circus show. But, this is not the case because "The Hand of Omnipotence hath established His Revelation upon an unassailable, an enduring foundation. Storms of human strife are powerless to undermine its basis, nor will men's fanciful theories succeed in damaging its structure."

farid wrote: As you know prophets of God are likened to sun. they are not obsure matters. You don't inquire about the light of sun from stars. As you have read in Iqan, stars fall down from the sky when the sun comes.


It seems you don’t understand what I have said. It is a obscure matter because there is no statement (so far I think) that could say what is the action the House should do in one thousand years, it is in relation to the House’s function, not related to the next Manifestation’s station which is in no way “obscure” as you think I said.

farid wrote: this is what I also said, I said that by coming of the next prophet, the time of UHJ will be up, so they are no longer a divine quidance, so you do'nt have two divine quidances, you have just one. UHJ will be like those stars that fall form the sky.


Yes, if the next Prophet comes in one or more thousand years from October 1852 AD (for solar years), I think there will be a “messianic expectative” and also a lot of false prophets people nasty ambitious. We will never know who is the next Prophet if He don’t proclaim His Mission, so He will aware that the House is the supreme body of the Bahá’í Faith in that time and maybe will want to interview with them.

farid wrote: this is what I also said, I said that by coming of the next prophet, the time of UHJ will be up, so they are no longer a divine quidance, so you do'nt have two divine quidances, you have just one. UHJ will be like those stars that fall form the sky.


Yes, it could happen (improbable but possible) only if the House not recognize the next Manifestation, as I said they will aware that Revelation is possible after 1,000 years, but not before one thousand years. Very personally, it is fiction, but I think that in one thousand years some “ancient” descendants of Bahá’u’lláh will claim first the station Guardianship (perhaps those Holy Beings mentioned in Selections # 33)

farid wrote: " this "anytime" refers to anytime before coming of the next prophet. In other words, it refers to any time in the dispensation of Bahaullha.


I don’t know, maybe we will not need the House, it depends exclusively on the Will of the next Manifestation.

farid wrote: " this "anytime" refers to anytime before coming of the next prophet. In other words, it refers to any time in the dispensation of Bahaullha.


Do we need the House now, when three crazy (literal crazy) people lying impostors (Jamshid Ma'ani, Jamshid Meghnot and Nima Hazini) claim to be Manifestations of God? Of course we need the House!, I can’t understand why you maintain the “badaa” for before the 1,000 years.

farid wrote: 4-"This thinking would insinuate that there is no guarantee to say that the House is infallible at anytime." yes, I believe only God knows the truth . We don't have anyway to know this.


Yes, GOD knows the truth! The House is under Divine guidance (from God)! This confirms me that you don’t have a strong belief in the Revealed Word and infallible interpretations of His chosen ones and infallibility of the House. Infallibility can't be proved in a scienfitic way! :shock:

farid wrote: "but on the contrary the rules of the procedure are verifiable"
I don't know how you say this. How can you be sure that in an election held worldwide, everything has been done the way it should have? As I said, our worldy ways, no matter how advanced , are still imperfect.


Again the same, it seems you are not sure about the House’s infallibility. If you remember even in the last International Convention, for first time delegates could not arrive at the Holy Land, but the requisites are always the same, all NSAs members elected the House.

farid wrote: Only God will know the truth of things. Have you ever seen anywhere in writings this thing mentioned that in Bahai elections there is no possiblity that some rules won't be observed? that there is no possibility of any kind of mistake?
if you show me such a thing in the writings, I will then agree with you.
"but on the contrary the rules of the procedure are verifiable"


“Some rules”?, well, the “rules” is that the members of NSAs should elect the Universal House of Justice. The campaigns, candidacies, personal promotions are forbidden.

farid wrote: Bada means, that plan of God can change.


So, again, with this thinking one person could put in doubt the infallibility and Divine guidance of the House (which is guided by God) and all the Revelation.

farid wrote: so although the plan of God at that time was that no prophet comes before 1000 years, this plan can change later.


I think no in this case, the statements could not be more explicit about 1,000 years, because it is the very Will of God, the very Order of His System.

farid wrote: I was surprised reading this Hasan. Interpretaion(tawil) means that you change the apparent meaning of something and say that another indirect thing has been intended from it. Did I do this? I clearly said that God's plan was exactly what we read in this writing, without any interpretaion, but this plan can change. Because God can do what he desires.
(yafalo ma yasha) so although the plan of God at that time was that no prophet comes before 1000 years, this plan can change later.


Yes, not directly figurative (ta'wil), but I think you are doing this, Bahá’u’lláh says not before 1,000 years, but you say only "badaa" thing, finally you doubt about that explicit holy verse.

farid wrote: I realized it , because Bahaullha explains it in the best possible way in Iqan. He explains what most of the clergies of other religions have not understood yet. He explains why at the surface, Jesus was born due to her mother's sin, why Moses killed someone and as stattering, and why Badaa happened in Noah's promises. I think we should try to see how we can use all these and what their implications are for us, instead of just looking at them as mere histroy.


Why you don’t write correctly the name of Bahá’u’lláh? Too fatigued? I think you don’t realize anything on this issue of the promise of Noah. What sin of the mother of Jesus? Not a sin not even an “original sin” as many dumb people say, there is no “sin” in Maria’s conception. Moses kills someone, but in no place say it was intentionally; anyway, it was before His Mission. Personally I think you need to reflect much more on these issues and other Bahá'í writings.

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Postby farid » Tue May 24, 2005 10:25 am

Hasan
I don't know why you think it's so hard to understand the reason of Badaa in the Noah story. I think Bahaullah explains it very clearly in Iqan. It's explained over and over in Iqan and in fact the very first half of Iqan revolves around it. Besides Iqan, it's also repeated many times in kitab Badi and many other tablets.
By the way, I am sorry that I made you tired. As I said , I had a couple of scenatios in my mind , and Badaa was one of them , but nobody showed any interest and you are getting tired. So I think I'll stop here. thanks again for your attention
Farid

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Postby farid » Tue May 24, 2005 11:03 am

Hasan

It seemed to me that you read my post in a hurry and you didn't notice
that when I wrote about Jusus and Moses, I said these were what seemed at the surface . Here is the same thing with emphasis:

"He explains why at the surface, Jesus was born due to her mother's sin, why Moses killed someone and was stattering, and why Badaa happened in Noah's promises."

by "at the surface" I meant what looked to the eyes of those who just saw the surface of things not its depth.
By the way, Moses acknowledged his mistake and his cruelty.

Farid

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Postby Dawud » Tue May 24, 2005 7:45 pm

Here's an idea. What if the activities of the UHJ had to be suspended for some reason--let's say its members were all killed during World War III--and some time went by without a functioning UHJ. By the time peace returned and elections were possible, divisions had arisen over the means of election. (Perhaps there is a dispute as to which countries or territories have the right to send electors.) Would that be the end of the Baha'i religion as we know it? Or the beginning of a glorious new world with two or more rival bodies claiming to be the UHJ?

Anyway, there's no reason to think this couldn't happen before a thousand years go by, if it can happen it all.

Brent

A Prophet may come before the end of a thousand years

Postby Brent » Fri May 27, 2005 6:03 am

Baha'u'llah says that there are different kinds of Writings that issue from the pen of the Prophet. Some of them are mystical writings and they have a thousand meanings. These meanings come to light with the spiritual experience of the believer, and are subject to the varying interpretations and circumstances of individuals.

But some of the Teachings are clear and explicit. One of them is the period of time that must elapse before a new Manifestation will come.

On the first day of Ridvan, that Day of Days on which Baha'u'llah declared His Mission in Baghdad, Baha'u'llah revealed three things. One of them was the end of holy war, and when He revealed this He said that this Word began the millennium. The second was that the sins of all were forgiven. And the third was that no independent Manifestation would come for at least a thousand years.

Farid wrote: "It seems a good test that a prophet comes before the end of a thousand years mentioned in kitab Aqdas, and most Bahais be mislead due to this but those who are ready spiritually and can see the truth of the prophet because of its light and beauty and not other things."

Baha'u'llah has addressed this topic:

"Should a man appear," is yet another conclusive statement, "ere the lapse of a full thousand years -- each year consisting of twelve months according to the Qur'án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayan -- and if such a man reveal to your eyes all the signs of God, unhesitatingly reject him!" (Quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 132)

That is, the statement about "the truth of the prophet because of its light and beauty" is precisely addressed by Baha'u'llah, even if such a claimant "reveal to your eyes all the signs of God."

Furthermore, although the divine verses are generally subject to the personal interpretation of the individual, in the light of the individual's personal experience, this is not one of them. Baha'u'llah has removed this verse from the arena of interpretation, by the words "Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning".

If this isn't clear enough, the Master has written:

"The meaning of this is that any individual who, before the expiry of a full thousand years -- years known and clearly established by common usage and requiring no interpretation -- should lay claim to a Revelation direct from God, even though he should reveal certain signs, that man is assuredly false and an impostor." (Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 67)

So the issue is not whether one feels that he has the spiritual sensitivity to recognize a Manifestation of God or not. It has been removed from the arena of the individual.

I personally cannot locate any clearer statement on any subject in any divine Book.

And that is as it should be, because as the Master said, the Covenant of Baha'u'llah is peerless, and is the strongest Covenant ever made.

To say that it is not clear, when the Writings say it is clear; to say that it is not explicit, when the Writings say that it is explicit; to say that it is subject to interpretation when the Writings say that it is not subject to interpretation; to say that it might happen before a thousand years when the Manifestation and His Successors say that it will not; to say that it is loose when the Writings say that it is fixed; is to base one's supposition on mere fantasy instead of on the certitude of the Word.

"In its every aspect, this noblest of Dispensations and greatest of eras is something set apart, for it is most exalted, most glorious, and distinguished from the past. In no wise is it to be compared with the ages gone before. So plainly, in this mighty day, have the mysteries been laid bare, that to the perceptive and the initiated and those who have attained the knowledge of divine secrets, they appear as tangible realities. In this new Day the stars of allusions and hints have fallen, for the Sun of explicit texts has risen ... " (The Greatest Holy Leaf; "Bahiyyih Khanum" p. 194)

Brent

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Postby Hasan » Fri May 27, 2005 8:59 am

Thanks Brent and Jonah, I had already waste my knowledge on this subject. Writings and prophecies for the coming of next Manifestation are clear in time and I think they are one part of the great Covenant we humankind have with God (2300, 1844, 1260, 1000 years, etc.)

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Postby farid » Fri May 27, 2005 2:56 pm

Thank you Brent for taking your time and being kind to write on this subject.
I read what you wrote carefully. Seems to me you thought what I am saying is based on the belief that we can interpret the writings on this subject. I don't know why you thought so. Please tell me if I have said something that gives such a meaning.
Refering to writings,you said that I am saying these :

that it is not clear
that it is not explicit
that it is subject to interpretation
that it is loose

, while very cleary in response to a similar problem Hasan had I wrote :

"Interpretaion(tawil) means that you change the apparent meaning of something and say that another indirect thing has been intended from it. Did I do this? I clearly said that God's plan was exactly what we read in this writing, without any interpretaion, but this plan can change. Because God can do what he desires. "

So as you see , like you , I also believe that we cannot and should not interpret this writing. The whole story was based on Badaa, I don't know if you are familiar with this term or not, since it is arabic, but it is expalined in Iqan and I also explained what I mean by it.
You didn't say anything about this, which was the main and the only issue I talked about.
Hasan also did'nt give any valid reason why he thinks Badaa cannot happen. He just said that since writings are clear on this issue and frequent, so it cannot happen, which is a very irrational reason. As I said , Noah's words were also clear, as he set the time and even the hour of his promise, and it was frequent, as it happened several times.
Another thing is that frequency in this case is not relevant. God's plan at the time the writings were revealed was not to send a prophet before 1000 years. So it could be repeated hundereds or thousands of times in writings, and it wouldn't make any differnce in what I am saying. What I am saying is that God has the power to change what he said. So he can change this too.
I finish it with a part of Iqan:

"...`The hand of God,' say the Jews, `is chained up.' Chained up be their own hands! And for that which they have said, they were accursed. Nay, outstretched are both His hands!"(1) "The hand of God is above their hands.(2) ... How false is that which the Jews have imagined! How can the hand of Him Who is the King in truth, Who caused the countenance of Moses to be made manifest, and conferred upon Him the robe of Prophethood - how can the hand of such a One be chained and fettered?"
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 136)

In the same way, I think we cannot say that God's hands are chained up in sending another prophet before 1000 years.


Farid

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri May 27, 2005 11:32 pm

Trivia question: Did either the Bab or Baha'u'llah violate the clear, explicit, un-interpretable prophecies of any other religion (whose authority they recognized)?

Jews for instance say that when the messiah comes, there will be peace and tranquility everywhere. Since this has not happened, he has not come.

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Postby farid » Sat May 28, 2005 12:37 am

Guest, who I do'nt know your name
when you say: "un-interpretable prophecies", what prophesies in the Bible or koran are you refering to? what type of prophesies do you consider un-interpretable ? how do you know they are un-interpretable?
you mentioned the one that says there will be peace and tranquility everywhere. How do you know eg that this prophesy is un-interpretable?

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Postby Hasan » Sat May 28, 2005 3:38 am

He, the divine Being, and unknowable Essence, hath, Himself, testified that this Book is, beyond all doubt and uncertainty, the guide of all mankind until the Day of Resurrection.

All have been enjoined to follow the precepts of that Book until "the year sixty"[1] -- the year of the advent of God's wondrous Manifestation. That Book is the Book which unfailingly leadeth the seeker unto the Ridvan of the divine Presence, and causeth him that hath forsaken his country and is treading the seeker's path to enter the Tabernacle of everlasting reunion. Its guidance can never err, its testimony no other testimony can excel.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan)


Consider how the prophecies correspond to one another. In the Apocalypse, the appearance of the Promised One is appointed after forty-two months, and Daniel expresses it as three times and a half, which is also forty-two months, which are twelve hundred and sixty days. In another passage of John's Revelation it is clearly spoken of as twelve hundred and sixty days, and in the Holy Book it is said that each day signifies one year. Nothing could be clearer than this agreement of the prophecies with one another. The Bab appeared in the year 1260 of the Hejira of Muhammad, which is the beginning of the universal era-reckoning of all Islam. There are no clearer proofs than this in the Holy Books for any Manifestation. For him who is just, the agreement of the times indicated by the tongues of the Great Ones is the most conclusive proof. There is no other possible explanation of these prophecies.

The hidden secrets of the future were revealed to the Prophets, and They thus became acquainted with the future events which They announced. This knowledge and these prophecies were not the cause of the occurrences. For example, tonight everyone knows that after seven hours the sun will rise, but this general foreknowledge does not cause the rising and appearance of the sun.

Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence.

In the same way, the record and the mention of a thing in the Book does not become the cause of its existence. The Prophets, through the divine inspiration, knew what would come to pass. For instance, through the divine inspiration <p139> They knew that Christ would be martyred, and They announced it. Now, was Their knowledge and information the cause of the martyrdom of Christ? No; this knowledge is a perfection of the Prophets and did not cause the martyrdom.
he third edict of
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions)

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sun May 29, 2005 4:21 pm

we also must look towards the bloodline of the Afnan and Aghsan
Abdul Baha said

In all the Divine Dispensations the eldest son hath
been given extraordinary distinctions. Even the station of
prophethood hath been his birthright.
(from an untranslated Persian tablet)

thus the Guardianship, had it not terminated, would have been the line to look at to find the next Prophet. in say 1000, 2000, or 20,000 years a Guradian had procliamed His prophethood, this would have been consistant with the writings.

i personally think we need to closely monitor the bloodline of the Aghsan and Afnan, be they currently loyal Bahais or not.
Also we shouldnt hold anythign against many Aghsan personally had they descended from covonant breakers, because in the end of the day they are still descendents of Baha'u'llah Himself, and are not necessarily themselves covonant breakers.

Also keep in mind how many Prophets both Bahaulllah and The Bab had descended from

Guest

Postby Guest » Sun May 29, 2005 5:09 pm

Keyvan wrote:we also must look towards the bloodline of the Afnan and Aghsan
Abdul Baha said

In all the Divine Dispensations the eldest son hath
been given extraordinary distinctions. Even the station of
prophethood hath been his birthright.
(from an untranslated Persian tablet)

thus the Guardianship, had it not terminated, would have been the line to look at to find the next Prophet. in say 1000, 2000, or 20,000 years a Guradian had procliamed His prophethood, this would have been consistant with the writings.

i personally think we need to closely monitor the bloodline of the Aghsan and Afnan, be they currently loyal Bahais or not.
Also we shouldnt hold anythign against many Aghsan personally had they descended from covonant breakers, because in the end of the day they are still descendents of Baha'u'llah Himself, and are not necessarily themselves covonant breakers.

Also keep in mind how many Prophets both Bahaulllah and The Bab had descended from


I agree, I also said that in one thousand years exactly 2823 AD (lunar years) or 2852 AD (solar) a descendent of Bahà'u'llàh would claim the guardianship.

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sun May 29, 2005 5:14 pm

i dont think we should say claim "guardianship" prophethood. but we really dont know how it will work out. maybe an Afnan will serve as the forerunner and an Aghsan as the follow up Grand manifestation.... sounds cute huh? lol

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Postby Hasan » Mon May 30, 2005 12:28 am

i dont think we should say claim "guardianship" prophethood. but we really dont know how it will work out. maybe an Afnan will serve as the forerunner and an Aghsan as the follow up Grand manifestation.... sounds cute huh? lol


Yeah Keyvan, all of this is speculation, so I personally think bahá'í community will need a Guardian in that time (after 1,000 years).

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Mon May 30, 2005 2:05 pm

why would you say Guardian though? i have an issue wiht that at a few different levels.

a NEW DISPENSATION,a PROPHET can come at that time. doesnt say anything about a Guardian. as for Guardianship it is a componant of the previous system.

when the new dispensation comes, thus the previous system becomes obsolete.

so by the intimation of He whom God shall make manifest, our current administration will be done.

note that a new manifestation is far GREATER than a restoration of a previous componant.

i dont see a restored guardianship in the cards in any way you look at it, nor how could they or why would they pick up where Shoghi Effendi left off, nor do i see the need when we will be blessed with something far greater!!!

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Postby Hasan » Mon May 30, 2005 11:50 pm

Keyvan, Guardian and Manifestation are possible after one thousand years. It is possible that the Manifestation will come exactly in 1,000 years, but is also possible more than 1,000 years (+1,000 or 2,000, who knows?).
We don't know the future, the only we know is that Bahá'u'lláh says in 1,000 years a Revelation through a Manifestation is possible, also the station of Guardianship is possible (see Selections of 'Abdu'l-Bahá # 33) (and I think necessary). All apart what is said in the Writings are interpretations and speculations; in this light the both of us, or any of us could be right.

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Tue May 31, 2005 10:21 am

I didnt see anything in that passage to indicate a Guardian and not a Manifestation. the loss of the Guardian wasnt explicitly seen in the writings anwyway.

If a software company releases something version 4.0 and they say the next version will come out in 1 year. in 1 year im waiting for a new version, 5.0....not a patch for 4.0

after 1000 years why would we be given a Guardian when we can be given so much Greater.

Maybe youve done more studies of this to pinpoint something else. I dont see your logic though, can you please explain

Keyvan

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Tue May 31, 2005 10:28 am

i mean i see why we need another, since we dont have a Guardian.
I agree that since we have no more Guardian, we have no more interperetations or pertaining guidelines to go by....and it will get harder and harder to legislate as the years go on

But with that, i think thats the indication that it WILL be at 1000 years, and not 2000 or 20000 or 30000. With that we recieve another Blessed Beauty in 1000 years, so the loss of the Guardianship in a sense is a blessing in itself, for it expedited the process.

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Postby Hasan » Tue May 31, 2005 6:35 pm

Keyvan wrote:i mean i see why we need another, since we dont have a Guardian.
I agree that since we have no more Guardian, we have no more interperetations or pertaining guidelines to go by....and it will get harder and harder to legislate as the years go on

But with that, i think thats the indication that it WILL be at 1000 years, and not 2000 or 20000 or 30000. With that we recieve another Blessed Beauty in 1000 years, so the loss of the Guardianship in a sense is a blessing in itself, for it expedited the process.


Well, Keyvan, I am not refering to legislation of the House, but to the need of a living interpreter, there could be people who want to make divisions, also there is no statement of how the House should act after 1,000 years (in respecto to next manifestation), could the next Manifestation be not recognized?

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Tue May 31, 2005 7:10 pm

it is quite clear that when the next manifestation comes the administrative order of the previous will become obsolete and lose infallibility. thus we will have much more than interperetor. it will be more difficult for someone to come and say they are an interpereator and have his goal to get the UHJ to recognise him, than it is for someone to say they are a new manifestation and they have a new administration is in order, and to get the world to recognise Him.

think what youre saying. Muhammadeans denounce The Bab saying that Imam Mahdi was to come and restore the system of the old, not bring something new.

any kind of Guardian will be a Guardian MAHDI. perhaps a forerunner who will interperet the signs of Bahaullahs writings to reveal what is pertanant tot he next manifestation. Although it seems unlikely that in this case a forerunner would be necessary as in the case of the aftermath of Muhammadean religion where the Qaim was needed to explain the allegory of the Day of Ressurrection

although there could be, we dont know. in the end we are all ignorant. and our speculation is nonsence.
Though we should always keep looking for signs.
God is All-Knowing.

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Postby Dawud » Tue May 31, 2005 7:23 pm

Do you foresee this person as being embraced or rejected by the Baha'i institutions of 1000-or-so years hence?

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Tue May 31, 2005 8:27 pm

I foresee many people rising up claiming Prophethood, as is usually the case. Most definately 1 will rise far over them all making everyone else forgotten...as is always the case. Initially many will reject as their love for Baha'u'llah will be too great for detatchment, but many will accept. The institutions will become irrelevent. Regardless of everything the will of God will easily triumph.

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Postby Hasan » Tue May 31, 2005 9:07 pm

Keyvan wrote:I foresee many people rising up claiming Prophethood, as is usually the case. Most definately 1 will rise far over them all making everyone else forgotten...as is always the case. Initially many will reject as their love for Baha'u'llah will be too great for detatchment, but many will accept. The institutions will become irrelevent. Regardless of everything the will of God will easily triumph.


Yeah, many people hungry of power will claim prophethood in +1,000 years, but I think the true Manifestation would interview with the House, no matter what happen 'Abdu'l-Bahá said we should obey the House, the permanent schism is impossible in the Faith. But if we use the logic, we see that the next Manifestation will irreparably suffer, so, I think it's probably the House will have problems to recognize Him, that's why I think the Guardianship is needed.
All our quotations are speculations since there is no authoritative statement on this subject. Of course, the House’s infallibility will lose when the next Manifestation comes, not necessarily in 1,000 years, but when the next Manifestation proclaim His mission to them and to all people, it is clearly that this is possible AFTER 1,000 years, but it could be 2,000 years, who knows?

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Postby Hasan » Tue May 31, 2005 9:22 pm

Keyvan says:
think what youre saying. Muhammadeans denounce The Bab saying that Imam Mahdi was to come and restore the system of the old, not bring something new.


Dear Keyvan, I’m NOT saying the same as Shiahs’, please specify, and tell where I am saying that???

The House’s infallibility will lose not NECESSARILY in 1,000 years, but rather WHEN the next Manifestation receives His mission, so it could be in 1,000 years or MORE.

By the way, this quote of the Guardian says the next Prophet's task is to improve “the machinery of the world”.

“After Bahá'u'lláh many Prophets will, no doubt, appear, but they will be all under His shadow. Although they may abrogate the laws of the Dispensation, in accordance with the needs and requirements of the age in which they appear, they nevertheless draw their spiritual force from this mighty Revelation. The Faith of Bahá'u'lláh constitutes, indeed, the stage of maturity in the development of mankind. His appearance has released such spiritual forces which will continue to animate, for many long years to come, the world in its development. Whatever progress may be achieved in the later ages-after the unification of the whole human race is achieved -- will be but improvements in the machinery of the world. For the machinery itself has already been created by Bahá'u'lláh. The task of continually improving and perfecting this machinery is one which later Prophets will be called upon to achieve. They will move and work within the orbit of Bahá'í cycle.”

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Tue May 31, 2005 11:34 pm

yeah but "Guardian" is such a limited term. that confines Him to tasks of the Guardian which are miniscule compared to that of a Manifestation. A Guardian cannot bring a new book, etc.
The system of the faith is good but it loses infallibility when He comes. thus it must be re-established after His death under His guidence, conscent, and any additional things needed should they be needed, and out of His seed will come another caliph-guardianship

do you see what im saying? UHJ as we know it will end once the next Manifestation comes regardless of anything.

and yes i agree He will show His respect to the UHJ of course. He will attempt to work with them. But if He is rejected then that is quite unfortunate and very possible, just as the leaders of religion of the past rejected Baha'u'llah.

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Postby Hasan » Tue May 31, 2005 11:43 pm

Keyvan wrote:and yes i agree He will show His respect to the UHJ of course. He will attempt to work with them. But if He is rejected then that is quite unfortunate and very possible, just as the leaders of religion of the past rejected Baha'u'llah.


Yes, is possible because of the infallibility issue. I think we agree in this, but I think first there is a little time of messianic concealment and then open proclamation. We know that never is easy (and will never be) for people to recognize next Prophets, every resurrection have tests, it is according to the lament of Bahá'u'lláh about the trials of next Prophet.

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Tue May 31, 2005 11:52 pm

also i heard, but it could just be pure rumor, that the UHJ has unrevealed writings. almost like time capsules to be read at some points later in the cycle and not before. perhaps there are writings for which they hold that are not to be revealed to us concerning specifics on the next anifestation

does anyone know of any truth to the idea of that which is 'unrevealed"

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Postby Hasan » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:03 am

Keyvan wrote:also i heard, but it could just be pure rumor

that the UHJ has unrevealed writings. almost like time capsules to be read at some points later in the cycle and not before. perhaps there are writings for which they hold that are not to be revealed to us concerning specifics on the next Manifestation

does anyone know of any truth to the idea of that which is 'unrevealed"


Yeah, it’s probably several texts are not in BWC, but if something is found, I think the House will not hide it. The House wrote this (related to the succession):

"We assure you that nothing whatsoever is being withheld from the friends for whatever reason".

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:16 am

I recall that letter. I think that was related directly to the issue of immediate Guardianship, much like a hadith of Muhammad saying there is no prophet after him relevent to the caliph system after His passing as opposed to the Jewish continuing Prophethood. There could be more information, if something isnt being revealed by the UHJ for the protection of the faith I agree completely. There are crazy people out there who will run wild with delicate things such as this. If there are signs they are too look for, someone can decorate themselves with that. But imsure there are things that even they dont know of. things that havent been revealed or looked at by anyone. Prerhaps there are writings not to be looked at until 2021.
again this is all speculation

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Postby Hasan » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:47 pm

Keyvan wrote: There could be more information, if something isnt being revealed by the UHJ for the protection of the faith I agree completely. ...If there are signs they are too look for, someone can decorate themselves with that. But imsure there are things that even they dont know of. things that havent been revealed or looked at by anyone. Prerhaps there are writings not to be looked at until 2021.
again this is all speculation


Well, Keyvan, I respect your opinion but I don't share it.

The action to hide information was a business of past corrupt institutions, there is no monopolization of relevant information our dogmatization of the Revealed Word as past religious systems, this is not a quality of Bahá'í system, and besides, there is no example of this in the House’s history in any relevant fact (including the succession issue).

I don't see the necessity to "unlock" this supposedly “hidden information” in 2021 or anytime.

How can people "decorate" theirselves with "signs"? What’s that?

If there is any relevant information about next Prophet, then: how could the House hide it permitting to cause more confusion? It puts another question in the conscience of the believers, for instance: “The House is hiding things, but is ok they could lie to Bahá’í community for ‘protection’”, what protection you refer?, this is unacceptable to me, what do you think is the result of this thinking related to the House’s infallibility?

The House's office or labor is not to obscuring things, but it’s to elucidate the obscure things.

If anybody writes the House about this (if there is any information they are hiding), I think they will respond the same thing:

"We assure you that nothing whatsoever is being withheld from the friends for whatever reason".

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:56 pm

You suggest the possibility that, for the good of the Cause, certain information concerning the succession to Shoghi Effendi is being withheld from the believers. We assure you that nothing whatsoever is being withheld from the friends for whatever reason

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 352)


There may be other things not concerning the succession that are being withheld. What i mean by this is, suppose there were specifics on the next Manifestation. Perhaps a name, a birthday, a distinguishing physical characteristic. And perhaps the UHJ should be the only one to know that in order to correctly identify Him so there is no split. But lets say everyone knew those characteristics, then a million people who match that will rise up and claim Prophethood and the world will be fragmented again. This is what i mean by "decorate themselves with signs" in such a case perhaps only those responsible should know

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Postby Hasan » Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:25 pm

Dear Keyvan, your conclusion is not convincing, you will need to answer these questions: Why Siyyid Kazim did not hide relevant information about the Qaim? Why he did the very contrary? These questions should puzzle you.

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Postby Hasan » Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:00 am

Dear Keyvan, do you think the House is hiding relevant information when they say they are not? Before thinking that way, write the House.

One person is this forum thinks is possible a Manifestation comes before 1,000 years (a “badaa” subject) in spite of the clear statement of Bahá’u’lláh and infallible interpretations of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. This person says one thing; the authoritative writings say the opposite.

Other person in other topic “the next Prophet” asks: “Is this ‘God’ a 19th century Iranian Muslim too, that his revelation should fit this background so well?

All this ideas are contrary to authoritative statements.

1) The House doesn’t hide relevant information.
2) The next Prophet will come in 1,000 years or more, not before.
3) Bahá'u'lláh is not “God” and He’s not merely an "Iranian Muslim".

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:10 am

youre bringing cynicism into this matter where it is not warrented
"hiding" is not a proper term for what im refering to
that would imply conspiracy or something antagonising
this is of course not relevent to matters of the Blessed House of Justice

I am saying there are perhaps forms of guidence different than what we know of. Seyyid Kazim was not administrative. A teacher though, someone of His own teaching

Lets say...1000 years from now a Bahai Scholor compiles much information and within a movement of his own puts forth knowledge of tracking the coming Manifestation. A deciple goes forth and finds Him.
May happen

but in an alternative situation, what if Bahaullah had intented for the UHJ to recognise Him before anyone else.

again its all speculation.

if anything is strictly for the eyes of the Blessed Body than it is logistical and administrative.

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Postby Hasan » Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:30 pm

Dear Keyvan,

Even "for the good of the Cause" the House is not hiding, or occulting or "not telling" something; they "assure" us that "nothing whatsoever is being withheld from the friends" for "whatever reason".

This quote is decisive, see the words "nothing whatsoever" and "whatever reason". It is also good to remember that the basis of the virtues is "truthfulness" or "veracity", if someone asks the House about, for example, something related to next Prophet, and if they have that information, I think they won't lie or hide anything on the subject. I think the reality is the very contrary.

But, even if you don't agree with this, is Ok, multiple opinions are tolerable in the Bahá'í community, however, the "search of the truth" attitude applies not only to non-bahá'í, but also to bahá'ís, that's why bahá'ís scholars study and try to comprehend better the writings and also for apologetics reasons in a world, where the currents of society and opinions are degraded about, religion, homosexuality, women, justice, laws, ethics, moral, spirituality, etc.

Hasan

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:57 am

yes i agree "nothing whatsoever" but the end of that sentance is "concerning the successorship" and that was [of the guardianship]

but im not playing textual tag.
im not being accusitory. if there is something logistical or whatnot being withheld i respect that full

perhaps this could make an interesting question in writing to the House

Tawna

Postby Tawna » Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:12 pm

I spotted this thread while web surfing. Wow, it seems so silly witnessing people debating whether the next manifestation of God happening past 1000 years, maybe 2000 or 10,000... The Book of Revelations in the Bible clearly explains of a dispensation will last exactly 1000 years. It gives mention of a as a rider on a white horse that would rule with an iron scepter.

Revelation 19:11 - 19:16
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.


I recall that Baha'u'llah riding a horse (before or after) delivering his Ridvan message. I also know that he gave instructions to various rulers and religious leaders. Misfortune befell those who disobeyed him. That sounds like a pretty powerful sword that struck down nations. In addition, Baha'u'llah's Covenant assures that his dispensation is secure, as if he really is ruling with an iron scepter.

Revelation 20:4-20:6
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


I paraphrase Jesus here to mean the manifestaion of God of the age, which in this case is Baha'u'llah. I believe the beast is the individual that falsely claimed to be the successor of the Bab. The bible mentions something about an individual that persuaded someone to claim to be Christ. I forget where I read that, but it reminds me of Baha'u'llah's half-brother.

Anyways, this verse is pretty clear that the believers of the rider on the white horse would reign for a thousand years, no more, no less. I'm convinced that this refers to followers of Baha'u'llah. They would be priests of God, and Baha'is have the same role that priests had in the past: study sacred writings, pray daily, and teach the Faith to others. The Bible mentions that once the 1000 years finish, Satan would deceive the nations, once again. People will be tested. After that, God's heaven will take form on Earth. I suppose that would be the Most Great Peace.

Of course, that is merely my own interpretation of the Bible. Read it for yourself to see if it strikes true for you. I don't intend on being a regular here, so hasta la vista.

Mike

Open minded

Postby Mike » Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:50 am

Just like to say that I have thought about this matter in the past in the light of my understanding of the Divine Scriptures and come to the essentially the same conclusion as Farid. Ultimately it's a question of accepting the fact that God doeth whatsoever He pleaseth.

The reaction in this forum by fundementalist clingers-to-the-letter is also fairly instructive and may offer some insight into why the next manifestation is destined to suffer so much.

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Re: Open minded

Postby Hasan » Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:32 pm

Mike wrote:Just like to say that I have thought about this matter in the past in the light of my understanding of the Divine Scriptures and come to the essentially the same conclusion as Farid. Ultimately it's a question of accepting the fact that God doeth whatsoever He pleaseth.

The reaction in this forum by fundementalist clingers-to-the-letter is also fairly instructive and may offer some insight into why the next manifestation is destined to suffer so much.


It is in our writings that a Manifestation will come, but only after one thousand years since the Revelation of God to Bahá'u'lláh (year Nine) in October 1852 or 1269 AH.

Mike

Keeping us on our toes

Postby Mike » Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:34 am

Hasan:

I know that's what it says in the Writings. I just do not think God's Will is restricted in any way, shape or form - including by what He Himself has said.

You seem - whether consciously or subconsciously - to be preparing yourself to judge His actions according to the standards which He has layed down for us.

It's not not for us to judge or test Him for His integrity, sincerity or trustworthiness or on account of whether or not He was "true to His word". lol. He is the Law Maker, the Judge, the Uncontrained and He doeth whatsoever He pleaseth!

While blindly following the Divine Text and the Universal House of Justice for 1000 years does sound rather attractive I'm afraid it's not necessarily quite as simple as that. I think He likes to keep us on our toes. lol.

Best,
Mike

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:17 am

Hasan, thank you. Good to see some Baha'is are true to their faith.

The true Baha'i only needs the Writings and no other outside "opinions." May we be protected against mischief of all sorts.

—Warrior 8)

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Postby Hasan » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:50 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:Hasan, thank you. Good to see some Baha'is are true to their faith.

The true Baha'i only needs the Writings and no other outside "opinions." May we be protected against mischief of all sorts.

—Warrior 8)


Warrior, I am glad to hear this, and know that there are firm bahá’ís around the world. Yeah, in this era of uncertainty, positivism, “fallibilism”, and their theories which dominate the current thinking in most part of the civilized world, people forget they have a soul and are intoxicated with these false gods.

Bahá'í Faith teaches respect for the opinions of others, and I think we should tolerate different theological views; of course there are fundamental verities which some people need time to understand, in this process (of understanding) these people should not weight verities with ordinary standards. A friend of mine wrote this:

Above all, one should not close the eyes to the fact that man “has been created weak” (Qur’án), that he is “prone to evil” and “a sinner” (Bahá’u’lláh), and that the earth is not the Kingdom of God (malakút). As an individual, man is always endangered by his frailties. All organizations,—the Bahá’í organization included—must, as they are run by humans, be on their guard not to be affected by human frailties. The promise of the assistance of the holy Spirit is a mighty buckler against this endangerment.


Some Bahá’í teachings, especially those related to doctrine are matter of faith, but the quote of the Aqdas about the coming of the next Manifestation (which Bahá’u’lláh re-emphasized this period should not be less than 1000 years from His Revelation and expressly forbids tawil) is extraordinary explicit.

In this world the most great miracle and the supreme proof is the Manifestation of God, as ‘Abdu’l-Bahá said: “…If you had come to this blessed place in the days of the manifestation of the evident Light, if you had attained to the court of His presence, and had witnessed His luminous beauty, you would have understood that His teachings and perfection were not in need of further evidence”.

Cheers,

Mike

For the "true Baha'is"

Postby Mike » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:39 am

Hasan and "Warrior":

Have you two read the Kitab-i-Iqan?

Here's a little more of the quote from the Kitab-i-Iqan that Farid kindly shared with us. I would be most interested to know if, having read it, you are going to persist in your assertion that there is not the slightest possible chance that what Farid and I have been arguing about may, and I repeat, just may, come to pass.

Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him! Thus it hath been revealed: "And as often as a company of His people passed by Him, they derided Him. To them He said: `Though ye scoff at us now, we will scoff at you hereafter even as ye scoff at us. In the end ye shall know.'" (1) Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. Finally, as stated in books and traditions, there remained with Him only forty or seventy-two of His followers. At last from the depth of His being He cried aloud: "Lord! Leave not upon the land a single dweller from among the unbelievers."

And now, consider and reflect a moment upon the waywardness of this people. What could have been the reason for such denial and avoidance on their part? What could have induced them to refuse to put off the garment of denial, and to adorn themselves with the robe of acceptance? Moreover, what could have caused the nonfulfilment of the divine promise which led the seekers to reject that which they had accepted? Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: "Do men think when they say `We believe' they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?"


By the way, just for the record, cheap shots like claiming that you are "true Baha'is" and, thus, by implication, that we are not, do not and will not wash. lol.

Best,
Mike

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Postby Hasan » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:20 am

Mike wrote:
By the way, just for the record, cheap shots like claiming that you are "true Baha'is" and, thus, by implication, that we are not, do not and will not wash. lol.


This quote was posted by Farid before.... in the end the same Noah SAID people to enter the Ark, but nobody except a few believed Him. In the case of the coming of the next Manifestation, the Author and the chosen Successors of our Faith don’t say the opposite; on the contrary they affirm that the next Manifestation should appear in more than 1000 years. This is part of the Great Covenant God has with Humankind, God assures us the continuity of His Revelation.

Should we doubt what Bahá’u’lláh clearly said? So, is possible Jamshid Ma`ání and others madmen are right? The answer is clear, we should believe in what BAHÁ’U’LLÁH said, and I don’t understand why doubt about it. lol

Hasan

janine

A prophet may come before the end of a thousand years

Postby janine » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:50 pm

Dear Farid,

These are my thoughts after reading your post. You were expecting apparently people to ask questions.... and that expectancy induced me to reply to you as to the possible reasons why not that many people here ask you questions.

These are my reasons:

1. I am still too busy trying to follow Baha'u'llah in everything He teaches. 1000 years is far away for me. I have a practical streak and the here and now matters more to me.

2. The light will be visible no matter when it comes to shine again after 500 years or 1000 years. The Bahai teachings teach that every 1000 years a new Manifestation of God arises. From history we know that these 1000 years should be taken a bit leniently. Christ appeared roughly 500 years after Buddha, and Muhammad appeared roughly 600 years after Christ.

3. to me it is clear that God can change His plan. Baha'u'llahs statement on the 1000 years seems to be very fixed, though why He suddenly used solar years while He was speaking to a population whose culture was to use the lunar calendar is a bit of a mystery to me. However, I think it was the Guardian who said something as well about it being 1000 solar years, and as he has the right to clarify and elucidate on the meaning of the texts, that is double proof. But I am not too troubled by it. To expect another Manifestation of God however before at least the vision as explained by the Guardian in for example the World Order of Baha'u'llah has enfolded seems to me to be not in accordance with the promise Baha'u'llah made, that this cause would be free from schism and that His infallible guidance would lead this cause through the Administrative Order He had given us the blueprint of in His writings.

So, to consider a person a Manifestation of God and speaking with the same authority as Those before Him/Her, this person should know of Baha'u'llah, make reference to His writings, treat Him with the utmost respect and love, as well as showing forth such a majesty and insight and radiant light and submissiveness to God that it will be evident for anybody with spiritual eyes, even half closed spiritual eyes, to see. If this person does not make mention of Baha'u'llahs writings, that would for me be a sign that this person was under a false illusion.

I did some investigation just after I became a Bahai, into several people who claimed to be, well special. Said Baba for example, and Baghwan because Baghwan was at that time quite big in Holland, but also some other ones like Krishnamurti (who actually was put more on a pedestal) and Yogananda. And Gandhi as well. None of these has the fullness I find in Baha'u'llahs writings. I have met maybe more than average people of deep spiritual insight which was combined with high intellect and absolute rectitude of character, and they all are lights and a joy to be with. I also have sort of 'seen' Christ and Baha'u'llah in day dreams and sleep dreams. These experiences have given me an impression which is totally my own knowledge, something I cannot impart to another person, but which I do believe is based in truth and not in illusion. I know that if I keep on doing what I have done always when troubled or confused, turn to God in prayer and ask Him for guidance, willing to sacrifice all in the search for truth, He will assist me.

If I had children, this is what I would teach them: to read the writings of the Manifestations of God, especially Baha'u'llah, meditate on them and turn always to God in prayer imploring Him fervently to help them to find truth. I would try to instill a love for truth in them to the extend that truth becomes more important to them than life itself.

For me the search of truth is most important and therefore I am not too worried about the possibility that the Manifestation of God will appear before 1000 years have passed. I trust and hope that God will guide me to truth, will help me remove veils I might have in recognising His Manifestation, and so far He has fuelled that trust and hope ;o)

The Light is always, always more important than the Lamp.

much love,

janine

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Re: A prophet may come before the end of a thousand years

Postby Hasan » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:51 am

janine wrote: For me the search of truth is most important and therefore I am not too worried about the possibility that the Manifestation of God will appear before 1000 years have passed. I trust and hope that God will guide me to truth, will help me remove veils I might have in recognising His Manifestation, and so far He has fuelled that trust and hope ;o)
The Light is always, always more important than the Lamp.


It is surprising to see people doubting about this clear statement, in spite of the fact that Bahá'u'lláh Himself re-emphasized it. I am tired to post about this issue; it is evident that some people are blind and deaf; and do not perceive the truth which is in front of them.

Shoghi Effendi wrote this on The Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh (stressed by me).

That `Abdu'l-Bahá is not a Manifestation of God, that, though the successor of His Father, He does not occupy a cognate station, that no one else except the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh can ever lay claim to such a station before the expiration of a full thousand years-- are verities which lie embedded in the specific utterances of both the Founder of our Faith and the Interpreter of His teachings. "Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God," is the express warning uttered in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, "ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying imposter. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will no doubt forgive him. If, however, he persists in his error, God will assuredly send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible indeed is God in punishing!" "Whosoever," He adds as a further emphasis, "interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things." "Should a man appear," is yet another conclusive statement, "ere the lapse of a full thousand years--each year consisting of twelve months according to the Qur'án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán--and if such a man reveal to your eyes all the signs of God, unhesitatingly reject him!"

Daniel

1000 years

Postby Daniel » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:17 am

I didn't read the whole conversation, but I would like to remind that when Messenger comes, He will explain the meaning of 1000 years. Also when He comes, Universal House of Justice will not be infallible anymore, so if They say this is or this is not a Manifestation, it doesn't matter in that day.

1000 years was mentioned in Quran, and it occured, Báb wrote about nine years , and it occured, Bahá'u'lláh wrote "Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things."

When Messenger comes, He will show clear evidences (according to Quran) like Báb and Bahá'u'lláh did.

Next Messenger is "easy" to recognize, He can explain everything about writings of Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, He will be hated and wounded and denied by most of people. And He will come with Law, not just simple texts about how good and beatyfull God is, or some basic wisdoms how to live.

I believe there are more prophecies about next Messenger in Sacred texts than this 1000 years. They are just opening to people later, one by one. I personally think the Seven Valleys could contain more than we now understand. Of course there are many more Tablets and Books, and when I meet someone who says: " I have been reading them all...", I doupt...

Kitab-i-Aqdas is not a Book for people to argue about. And disputing about the Book is surely not good for anyone.

Love and harmony,

Daniel

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:25 pm

This is the most pointless thing to argue about. It amazes me how many people come to this message board just to argue. Baha'u'llah knew this would happen (some Baha'is trying to say this statement isn't literal), so He clearly states:

"Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things."

Let's perhaps spend our time a bit more constructively and not argue about whether or not it takes the earth 365 days to orbit the sun.

Mike

Postby Mike » Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:28 am

As far as I understand discussing questions like this far from being a "waste of time", is in fact one of this forums raison d'être.

No one is negating the legitimacy or misinterpreting the statement of Baha'u'llah from the Kitab'i'Aqdas in reference to the coming of the next Divine Manifestation. Nor is anyone saying that the next Manifestation will necessarily appear within the next 1000 years. It's simply a matter of balance. Of taking such statements in the context of the Teachings as a whole. Of seeing that while far from definite, or even probable, such things are possible.

By the way, using a larger font won't strengthen your argument. Reason will!

Best,
Mike

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Postby Hasan » Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:52 pm

Mike wrote: By the way, using a larger font won't strengthen your argument. Reason will!


Mike, this way of thinking (the possibility of a new revelation before 1000 years) prepares the terrain for the uncertainty...

You ask the infallible interpreters, he will respond (in fact they did many times: it is clear, no less than 1000 years

Not too emphatic for you? …sad

Mike

Certainty

Postby Mike » Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:29 am

Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled...what could have caused the nonfulfilment of the divine promise which led the seekers to reject that which they had accepted? Meditate profoundly,...that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants...(Baha'u'llah, Kitab'i'Iqan)


I understand that you may be afraid of uncertainty. Follow Baha'u'llahs advice and "meditate profoundly". By doing so you may achieve certainty in the knowledge that on this issue we cannot be 100% certain.

Best,
Mike

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Postby farid » Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:34 am

I visited this forum accidentally today and was surprised to see this topic back at the top again. It made me happy to see Mike has come to the same conclusion as mine. It's important to note why Muslims and Christians and Jews all think they are the last religions. All of them do this based on what they consider clear words in their sacred books: that laws of Moses won't be changed forever, and whoever does that is false, that Christ is the one who will come back again physically , that Mohammad was the last prophet. I think this must at least make Bahais suspect that a similar thing might happen in our faith. Now what do we have that could keep us from recognizing the next prophet? answer: Bahaullah's words that he won't come before 1000 years.
Here's a scenario:
The next prophet is in essense Bahaullah himself, though physically not him, but since his physics does not matter, let's assume he is even physically Bahaullah; that in looks and all the physical signs he is exactly Bahaullah:
He apears and says that I am Bahaullah and I have come back again to add a couple of things to my faith and change some of it. Some Bahais come forward and say: ok, we believed in you the first time you came to us, but you said that there won't be any prophet before 1000 years, so why have you come back to us? we cannot accept you. Go back. We don't need you.
He answers :
1) I made this law at the first place, now I am changing it, how can you tell me that I can't change what I said myself? or he says:
2) what I said has interpretaions, and this is its interpretation: ...

people say: no , you can't interpret this, since you said no one can interpret thisl
Bahaullah answers: I meant you who are not prophets of God should not interpret his words, since you don't know deep meanings of it, but I who am his prophet and who have said those words at the first place, can interpret them . Then he continues:
You see that I have all the signs I had before so how can you reject me? How did you believe in me the first time then? I have all those signs now , just look at me and read my writings. But people tell him: go back, we don't need you. We will be safe for a 1000 years without you and don't need your new teachings. Just come back after 1000 years.

Now , how bizarre is this?
Of course, Hasan or Worrier can say that this won't occur.
But let me remind you of a true story from dawn breakers;I can't remember the details , so you can look up for yourself , but this is the gist of it:
one of the students of Ahmad Ahsai ( or kazem Rashti , I am not sure), keeps on asking questions about ghaem (12th imam) ( I think he was asking about his signs or claiming that he would be a steadfast follower of him). In order to show his weakness in faith, Ahmad Ahsai ( or kazem Rashti), asks him: what would you do if when ghaem comes, he says that Ali (the first shie Imam and 4th suni Imam) is not your Vali ( has Vehayat over Muslims) anymore. In response the guy says: God forbid, he will never do that, this will never happen.
Nabil in his book gives this story as an example of how the lack of faith of this guy was made known , since he was testing the truth of the ghaem by what he expected of him, not by his own signs. Now this is so interesting. I like worrier and Hassan to think about it and decide for themselves. I think understanding this issue needs a humble heart and that God can do what he desires and also that God always tests people.
Did Noah lie to his people several times, since what he promised was not fulfilled? No, not at all. He told the absolute truth.

Farid

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:49 pm

My friends,

Just to let you know you can think whatever you want. But let me tell you, just because you call yourself a "Baha'i" do not think that what you are saying has any truth to it. Baha'u'llah has made a very clear statement, and it is there for us. If you want to turn away from Baha'u'llah and give what He said different meaning, maybe you can discuss it among yourselves via e-mail. But this is a Baha'i forum and we should censor what we say and not say stuff that so blatantly goes against the Teachings. At least do not pollute the minds of those sincere Baha'is.

I would suggest that the Baha'is on this forum for whom the words of Baha'u'llah are good enough for them not to encourage this discussion by replying, because it is a very pointless one and goes against the Texts.

—Warrior


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