September 11th Predicted by Shoghi Effendi???

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Keyvan

September 11th Predicted by Shoghi Effendi???

Postby Keyvan » Mon May 30, 2005 2:09 pm

I heard that a few years ago after 9/11 there was this email going around in Bahai communities. A quote by Shoghi Effendi refering how we must stay away from major cities because these tall skyscrapers will fall to the ground...
something like that.
and then a UHJ member said that even though it sounds similar the reference was to another even that is yet to come

does anyone know of this quote, i cant seem to find it

Jonah
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Postby Jonah » Mon May 30, 2005 2:28 pm

I compiled this list on September 12 and posted it to http://bahai-library.com/wwwboard/messages01/530.html , but removed it by request. And I didn't excerpt it below, but see also the UHJ's letter <a href=http://bahai-library.com/?file=calamity>Pilgrims Notes and the "Calamity"</a>. -Jonah

1) From http://bahai-library.org/pilgrims/m.sears.html :<blockquote> All the nations of the world have suffered, why not America: It is corrupt and it is flabby. Russia can do anything to America. America escaped before but this time it will not escape. The streets of New York will run with blood. Politics and individuals are corrupt. America is an atomic base - a target for Russia. England has become the aircraft carrier for atom bombs. The worst danger is that which faces New York. Skyscrapers will fall - there will be burning of the cities as prophesied in the bible.</blockquote> 2) From http://bahai-library.org/pilgrims/edge.html :<blockquote> Those who do not respond will lose everything. Those who do respond will gain everything. The large cities are centers of materialism and the believers there will be caught in a trap. Cities like LONDON, PARIS, CHICAGO, NEW YORK, SAN FRANCISCO, will suffer horribly - Abdul-Baha warned the people about the danger of the racial problem in America, but they did nothing and had two wars. The situation is very grave and wish the friends to realize it. They calculate too much, there is not enough self- sacrifice, not enough trust in God.

While they are calculating, the BLOW WILL BE STRUCK. They, themselves, WILL EVAPORATE (go up in smoke), YES THEY WILL!!! The American continent is going to suffer, particularly THE NORTH AMERICAN CONTINENT. This is a very grave challenge and if they don't face it, they will be very sorry.</blockquote> 3) From http://bahai-library.org/pilgrims/william.allison.html :<blockquote> Two ills afflict the American society, the Guardian asserted -- materialism and racialism. Reviewing the history of materialism, the Guardian showed where Western Europe had developed materialism and now America was carrying it to the extreme. With a glint of sarcasm in his voice he denounced the so-called American security of giant skyscrapers and colossal edifices. With a swift movement of his hand, he demonstrated how quickly these institutions could be swept away in seconds. How foolish of the Americans, he stated, for them to regard their security in these "towers of Babel". Indeed, he carried this symbology one step further and called New York, Chicago, and San Francisco "Triple Babylons".</blockquote> 4) From http://bahai-library.org/pilgrims/dudley.html <blockquote> One evening the Guardian began speaking about the coming calamities. He was very emphatic and after he left, Ruhiyyih Khanum and the members of the International Council stated they had never heard him speak with so much force or so decisively. He said the coming calamity would be worse than war. Cities would evaporate; especially in the cities where it is hardest to teach the Faith such as New York, Chicago, and San Francisco. People would lose all their possessions and homes overnight - would simply evaporate. Americans would become refugees to other continents. The U.S. would suffer the most because it was the most materialistic. Europe was the cradle of materialism but the U.S. was the stronghold of materialism. Russia would also suffer greatly. He said there was no difference between Russia and the U.S. in their systems because both were materialistic - capitalism which is purely materialistic and communism which controls the proletariat. The coming calamity would be retributive.

Abdul-Baha went to the U.S. to specifically waken the nation to its dangers. His mission was a failure - both from the standpoint of the Baha'is and the Americans. That can be discerned by reading between the lines of his addresses in America.

...Speaking again about the calamity, the Guardian said it was retributive and referred to the passage in the Hidden Words: "All of a sudden the unforeseen calamity..." and to the quotation about the "limbs of mankind will quake." It especially applies to the U.S. because of the importance of the U.S. It is now America's turn to suffer. Referring to the coming cataclysm, the Guardian stated that the world needs a blood-letting because of over population of such countries as China, India, Japan. Refers to it as high blood-pressure and also to the unhealthy condition of many of the people, bad blood. Sally Sanor asked if in the future, when there would be no more wars, would there be a problem of overpopulation and the Guardian replied that science by that time would have solved the food problem.

The Guardian stated that the U.S. was chosen as the Cradle of the World Order (the Administrative Order) not because of its spiritual qualities but because of its corruption. After the coming calamity, the U.S. will fulfill the prophecy of Abdul-Baha that the U.S. would lead the nations because of its suffering.

The Guardian said he had given up warning the friends because they paid no heed to him. Furthermore, that this calamity had been destined. The Guardian stated Abdul-Baha warned the friends but they were heedless. It is too late to save the world. The message of Baha'u'llah has been in the world for over 100 years and has been rejected. The calamity will be sudden. He spoke of our statesmen from the President down; all were helpless and impotent. Also stated that we were not an altruistic nation, we were only helping other countries to save ourselves. Said the submarines built by Russia will paralyze the United Kingdom, Western Europe, the Mediterranean, the Pacific and Atlantic Seaboards. He stated that the U.S. did not wish to coalesce with other nations - only to protect itself.</blockquote> 5) From http://bahai-library.org/pilgrims/woolson.html :<blockquote> The A R K (he spelled this out) will be built around the Arc. We are building the seat of the Ark of Safety. The only Ark of Safety is the Administrative Order. Noah's Ark was built and the deluge came. This Ark is being built and the deluge will come. A Persian pilgrim, pioneering in Arabia, told me this afternoon (the Guardian was relating to us) that he had found a Muhammaden tradition which says that two-thirds of the world's population will be destroyed. How exactly this coincides with the prophecy of the New Testament regarding the destruction of two-thirds of the people. I wouldn't be surprised if this literally happens. There are too many people in the world anyway, and many of them are corrupt. But there will be enough left to build the world Order of Baha'u'llah. Latin America is relatively safe because it is far away from the danger zone. The U.S. is in danger, Tehran is in great danger, also North Africa.

The Towers of Babel today of today are the sky-scrapers. These will be destroyed. the people of the tower of Babel were haughty, proud, filled with vain-glory; they had turned away from God and were arrogant and God punished them. This will happen again for the same reason. The world is in the same condition today. The protection for the Baha'is is in dispersing. This is good for the Cause and for themselves.</blockquote>

6) Finally, though, also see Dr. Khan's cautionary note about not speculating, from http://bahai-library.org/talks/nature.of.tests.html :<blockquote>Freedom from negative criticism

We look toward a constructive, developmental Baha'i community which doesn't pretend it is immune from any means of further development and refinement of its practices and conduct but which is free from what the Guardian refers to as criticism of a negative nature which has the effect of undermining the authority of the Assembly.

One of the favorite and most wasteful and destructive practices in Baha'i community life in certain quarters is that of speculation about calamity. I am sure you've all had experiences at certain times of spectacular remarks about the evaporation of skyscrapers and submarines off the coast and so on.

There is a passage--there are many passages in the Baha'i Writings--where Shoghi Effendi says we don't know in what form the calamity will occur. Calamity is occurring now and so on and so forth. There is one passage and I am going to read it you where the Guardian says this is calamity. Finally, we found it.

The letter, written on behalf of the Guardian, December 18, 1949, was published in the Baha'i News in July 1950--and what does he say? He defines a calamity. He says: <ol>"Vicious criticism is indeed a calamity. But its root is lack of faith in the system of Baha'u'llah (i.e. the administrative order) and lack of obedience to Him--for He has forbidden it. If the Baha'is would follow the Baha'i laws in voting, in electing, in serving, and in abiding by assembly decisions, all this waste of strength through criticizing others could be diverted into cooperation."</ol>

Dawud
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Postby Dawud » Mon May 30, 2005 7:49 pm

I always thought of him as just a bureaucrat, but from this it seems obvious that Shoghi Effendi was nuts. No wonder the UHJ doesn't like Pilgrim's Notes...

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Mon May 30, 2005 7:59 pm

dawud you need to chill out. its not that impractical. The Quran though is filled with things that if taken litterally are utterly impossible, if not taken allegorically as The Bab has revealed for us.

In Persian tablets Abdul Baha refers to this too I believe. think of how many Bahai prophecies have already come true.

Briefly, all that was recorded in the Tablets to the Kings is being fulfilled: if from the year A.D. 1870 we compare the events that have occurred, we will find everything that has happened has appeared as predicted; only a few remain which will afterward become manifested.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 33)
note the 1st edition of some answered questions was published 1908!

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Mon May 30, 2005 8:03 pm

Bahá'u'lláh later gave an equally solemn warning to the
conquerors of Napoleon, which also fell on deaf ears and received
a terrible fulfillment. In the Book of Aqdas, which was
begun in Adrianople, and finished in the early years of
Bahá'u'lláh's imprisonment in 'Akká, He addressed the Emperor
of Germany as follows: --

O King of Berlin! ... Do thou remember the one
whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III)
and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he?
Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning,
and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who
cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made
known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused
Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all
sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think
deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them
who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over
men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their
palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect.
...

O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with
gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn
against you; and you shall have another turn. And We
hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in
conspicuous glory. -- Kitáb-i-Aqdas.

During the period of German successes in the Great War of
1914-1918, and especially during the last great German offensive
in the spring of 1918, this well-known prophecy was
extensively quoted by the opponents of the Bahá'í Faith in
Persia, in order to discredit Bahá'u'lláh; but when the forward
sweep of the victorious Germans was suddenly transformed
into crushing, overwhelming disaster, the efforts of these enemies
of the Bahá'í Cause recoiled on themselves, and the notoriety
which they had given to the prophecy became a powerful
means of enhancing the reputation of Bahá'u'lláh.

Guest

Postby Guest » Tue May 31, 2005 4:24 am

So all of those quotes about Skyscrapers and the like are fabrications or something?

Jonah
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Postby Jonah » Tue May 31, 2005 5:13 am

I think the only issue with pilgrims' notes is that they can't be considered as reliable for transmitting instruction and Revelation, or "Teachings," as written records. But for other types of historical information, e.g. what these personnages were like as people, pilgrims' notes are vital. Further, the quality of these notes can be quite varied. On the one hand we have notes by the Sears family, or even <a href=http://bahai-library.com/?file=maxwell_haifa_notes>May and Mary Maxwell</a> (later Ruhiyyih Rabbani), which are regarded as quite reliable. On the other hand, we have notes which have over-emphasized fantastical and calamitous predictions, like Ruth Moffett's.

I've heard no reason to suspect that the predictions made in the notes I excerpted above were incorrectly recorded or falsified. I.e., the above notes are, I think, as accurate as any other semi-formally transcribed dialogue.

Below I've pasted most of an <a href=http://www.bahai-library.com/pilgrims/notes.html>overview of the status of Pilgrims' Notes (click for link)</a>:
<blockquote> "Pilgrims' Notes" are records of individuals' meetings with the Central Figures of the Baha'i Faith and usually the recorded speech of the Central Figures. These Pilgrims' Notes are unofficial records of what visitors to the Holy Land recall was said and done by 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, but cannot be considered as their authentic words: the authors might have misheard or miswritten a statement; they might not have been knowledgeable about the Baha'i Faith and might have introduced their own misunderstandings into the notes; and these online notes are taken from widely circulated second-, third-, and sometimes fourth-generation hand-typed copies. These need to be checked against originals where they may exist and when they are found, for every copyist can and usually does introduce new errors.

As recently <a href=http://bahai-library.com/uhj/pilgrims.notes.html> explained by the Universal House of Justice,</a> no policy other than the exercise of wisdom currently governs the appearance of such notes on the internet. A brief <a href=http://bahai-library.com/compilations/pilgrims.notes.html> Compilation on Pilgrims' Notes</a> can also be consulted. Other pilgrims' notes can also be found in some of the older <a href=../talks/>Notable Talks.</a>

As these records can rarely be authenticated, they are considered to be much less reliable than the writings of the Central Figures, and are to be used with caution. They consist largely of impressions of oral conversation, which may in places have been transcribed by individuals not sufficiently knowledgeable of Baha'i teachings, and may contain inaccurate information. (An example of how manuscripts can differ can be seen in the <a href=dudley.parallel.html>parallel edition</a> of Alice Dudey's notes, below.) Only the Sacred Writings of the Baha'i Faith thus far published in English, <a href=../writings/>most of which are online,</a> represent the authentic teachings of the Faith. At the same time, these notes do contain much interesting information which, when properly weighed against authentic teachings, can be quite useful. The motive for presenting these notes online is perhaps best summarized in the following quotation from a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi: <blockquote>"While these notes taken down by the pilgrims do not constitute as official pronouncements made by the Guardian, and therefore should not be imposed on the friends, those who wish to share them with the members of the Community should, under no circumstances, be prevented from doing so. Though not strictly official, and in some instances inaccurate and misleading, these notes, as experience has shown, can be of tremendous help, guidance and inspiration to many individual believers, and their value as such should therefore be readily admitted" <font size=2>(from a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, April 28, 1939)</font>. See also <a href=http://bahai-library.com/compilations/pilgrims.notes.html>the full online compilation</a>.</blockquote> </blockquote> -Jonah

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Tue May 31, 2005 2:25 pm

hmm so its kind of like hadiths. varying in reliability. interesting

Dawud
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Postby Dawud » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:22 am

In this case there seem to be multiple, reasonably reliable sources reporting more or less the same sort of statement on S.E.'s part. Moreover, the things which he is reported as saying, are of a piece with other apocalyptic fantasies of the time (whether Christian, spiritualist, or cold-war).

All that's missing is a reference to the Knights Templar! (Umberto Eco joke)

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:14 pm

even as is, theres nothing unbelievable about it and no reason to find a way to discount them

though some of what has been posted just now doesnt seem to pan out since The Guardian had clearly officially stated that we really dont know in what form the catastrophe would come

in many official writings there are writings of a catastrophe and what not.
many seem pretty figurative with respect to similarities to the allegory in the Quran that The Bab revealed.

hey could even take these as signs to the next Resurrection

from other things i have read, i personally am leaning to that more than anything else, but you never know. but really personally, i would say, just imgine this is 1000 years from now and a new Manifestation comes, and people go around saying "no no, there hasnt been a catastrophe yet, where is the bloodshed and geographical events, cant be cant be" such will be the course of denial.
but thats just my personal opinion from minimal research


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