Baha'u'llah's diplomacy

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Baha'u'llah's diplomacy

Postby Guest » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:42 am

An earlier thread with the subject 'Rejection of Mohamed,' is nothing short of preposterous. Let us never forget that the parent religion of Baha'i faith and Babism is Islam, it forms the very backbone of this faith so let us refrain from uttering or imagining the outrageous.
In this context, we must note that Baha'u'llah was very diplomatic and did not wish to offend the Christian mentality in any way.
To substantiate, the holy Qur'an affirms and reiterates that Jesus was neither crucified nor killed,

“That they rejected faith: that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge. That they said (in boast) "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah"; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.”
Chapter 4, Verses 156-159

However, Baha'u'llah explains that what is meant by the blessed verse is that the Jews were not able to annihilate Christianity but were able to torture and crucify the sacred physical body of Christ.
However, please peruse the blessed verse and it is evident that God reiterates that our lord Jesus Christ (God's salutation be upon Him) was neither crucified nor killed since He ascended unto God's kingdom prior to being persecuted, crucified and killed by the Jews.
Baha'u'llah did not wish to cause any offence, schism or dissension; hence, His interpretation which is very much suited to the present times that are filled with detrimental religious intolerance.

I guess we will only know the real truth when we join all these Blessed Souls in the Abha kingdom.

Iman

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Postby brettz9 » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:07 am

Dear Iman,

Although you are certainly correct regarding the importance of Islam as the parent Faith of our Faith, I don't believe your interpretation of the verse from the Qur'án was accurate, in light ofthe additional guidance from Shoghi Effendi and elucidation from the Universal House of Justice:

The crucifixion as recounted in the New Testament is correct. The meaning of the Qur'anic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified. There is no conflict between the two."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 14, 1943)

"Regarding your question relative to Surih 4, 156 of the 'Qur'an' in which Muhammad says that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, the Christ, but one like Him; what is meant by this passage is that although the Jews succeeded in destroying the physical body of Jesus, yet they were impotent to destroy the divine reality in Him."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, March 19, 1938)


There is also a letter here on how the New Testament emphasizes, with physical overtones, the continuation of Christ's life, in order to demonstrate to the Jews, who did not (and many who still do not) believe that the after-life is a very real existence:

Concerning the Resurrection of Christ you quote the twenty-fourth chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke, where the account stresses the reality of the appearance of Jesus to His disciples who, the Gospel states, at first took Him to be a ghost. From a Bahá'í point of view the belief that the Resurrection was the return to life of a body of flesh and blood, which later rose from the earth into the sky is not reasonable, nor is it necessary to the essential truth of the disciples' experience, which is that Jesus did not cease to exist when He was crucified (as would have been the belief of many Jews of that period), but that His Spirit, released from the body, ascended to the presence of God and continued to inspire and guide His followers and preside over the destinies of His dispensation.


This is apparently what Muhammad was also trying to emphasize.

Fortunately for us and for mankind's unity, the day in which the Manifestation of God speaks in clear speech, and in which He has appointed institutions to interpret and elucidate His meaning has come.

best wishes,
Brett

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Postby brettz9 » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:13 am

Also, along the lines of the Manifestation of God speaking in clear speech in this age, I think we should be very careful when we make interpretations implying a kind of deceipt on the part of the Manifestation. The Manifestations of God never lie, even while they may on occasion push the limits of conventional discourse (e.g., when the Báb denied to be the representative of the "imam" (the gate) but did not also indicate at that time that He was the return of the spirit of the Imám Himself). Remember, some Bahá'ís have gone to the other extreme of claiming that Bahá'u'lláh only accepted Islám to make peace with Muslims. Neither of these views is correct, as 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice have thankfully made plain to us.

Brett

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the baha'i formation

Postby majnun » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:48 pm

Isn't it a popular misconception to think that
the "parent" (mom or dad ?) of both babism and
bahaism is Islam ? This implies that the baha'i
movement shares many principles with Islam, wich
is not the case, but rarely, since the base of religion
is one and the same.

Who is the "father" of a religion, Islam or Allah ?

The word "faith" has been added to the Baha'i religion
with time passing by. In the scripture it is described as
"amar", commandmant, or cause.

Baha'i is a religion, not a faith. More over it is a formation,
a psychological formation, a course. Anybody a bit smart
can see the parallel between the valleys and modern psychology.
And I can proove (dalil) it.

Majnun.
.

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Postby brettz9 » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:22 pm

Dear Majnun,

1) As far as parent religion, there is the following from Shoghi Effnedi in Promised Day Is Come:

Islám, at once the progenitor and persecutor of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh, is, if we read aright the signs of the times, only beginning to sustain the impact of this invincible and triumphant Faith.

(par. 249, p. 99, bolding added)


You are right, though, that each Manifestation of God, particularly the Inaugurator of such a vast cycle, "doeth whatsoever He willeth" as far as the independence of Their laws and own connection to God.

Maybe a comparison with the relationship of Bahá'u'lláh to future Manifestations of God would also be insightful here:

In connection with the Manifestations destined to follow the Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, `Abdu'l-Bahá makes this definite and weighty declaration: "Concerning the Manifestations that will come down in the future `in the shadows of the clouds,' know verily that in so far as their relation to the source of their inspiration is concerned they are under the shadow of the Ancient Beauty. In their relation, however, to the age in which they appear, each and every one of them `doeth whatsoever He willeth.'"

(Shoghi Effendi, World Order of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 111)


So, by parent, it might be seen in being the fullest Revelation from God prior to the present Faith (which our Writings affirm) (and immediate spiritual impetus) or perhaps by the social context it provided:

As there were no followers of the Báb or Bahá'u'lláh derived from the religions of the Far East in Their days, this may be the reason that They did not address any Tablets directly to these people. Also we must remember that every religion springs from some root, and just as Christianity sprang from Judaism, our own religion sprang from Islám, and that is why so many of the teachings deduce their proofs from Islám.

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi - 5 March 1957, in no. 25 of Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Related Subjects)


Also, as with physical parents, just because one is a parent and the other a child does not mean both are not directly influenced and influenceable by God.

2) As far as the use of the word Faith, the word is often interchangeable with religion. It often even has a greater connotation than "religion" which may be associated by some with excessive dogma and ritual. The term as applied to the "Bahá'í Faith" has been in use for quite some time. We need to have "faith" in situations like these to realize that our institutions would not accept or apply this terminology lightly (e.g., "The Bahá'í Faith upholds the unity of God..." (Shoghi Effendi, Faith of Bahá'u'lláh (original language is English)).

There is also this from the Universal House of Justice:

"In reply to your letter of January 26th, we realize that there are occasions on which the use of the term 'Baha'i World Faith' may be justified and useful. However, it is our hope that the friends will gradually lose the habit of using this term as widely as they do now. The designation 'The Baha'i Faith' is more dignified and preferable. Any adjective added to this name tends to a diminution of its stature and might be taken to mean that there are other 'Baha'i Faiths'."

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of the British Isles, February 5, 1967: Copies to various National Spiritual Assemblies; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 374)

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maybe cousins ?

Postby majnun » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:08 am

Yes, maybe we can see the term "parent" as "cousin",
since every beleiver, from the jews to us, listen and apply
what he received from above (scriptures).

The fact is christians do not see what is in the gospel,
intended for the Bab, concerning the 1260 prophecies.

The muslims still do not know that the missing bismillah
on sura 9, is intended to annouce the arrival of the next
messenger, the Bab, very clearly.

This is very simple. 1235 years ah have passed before
the Bab was born. So he come on the FIRST day (first verse)
of chapter 9, the 1236th verse from the beginning of the Coran
is verse 0ne of chapter 9. More over, verse 1267 (9:32) describes
how and when they (the muslims) killled the Bab (quench the light of Allah) on that same year, the 1267th year (28-8-1266).

Baha'u'llah commented on verses 9:32 and 9:33 in the Iqan.

More over, the name of the messenger, the word Bab alone with
no prefix of suffix indicate that same date 1267 ah.

The first word Bab is located at chapter 12, verse 67.
The text indicates what is a-comin (two jugement from above
meaning the Bab and Baha'u'llah). And if you do not beleive me,
simply count the number of word Allah from the end of the quran to
that verse, it is the year Baha'u'llah terminates his mission : 1309 / 1310th year ah. How is that for a nice coincidence ?

The second word "Bab" come in chapter 13 where the initials
(abjad) from the start totalise 1267 exactly. The name "bab" (door, singular) is on verse 23. I think it is verse 1728 , or 12 x 12 x 12.
Many other facts are connected with that verse. The fact is that in
that chapter, initials are A.L.M.R.
If the letter M stands for "Mahdi", there are 260 letters "M" in this
short chapter.
The last verse of chapter 13 is the 1748 of the book.
1748 = 19 x 92. This means that the informations contained
in chapter 13 end the Muhamad cycle, since M+H+M+D =92.


Because the Gospel said the door is 12 x 12 (= 144) the cube
must be 1728. 144 is the 144th day of the year , the 23 of May.

The third word Bab is on verse 15:44.
With the removal of twe false verse by Dr Khalifa in the 80's,
it is verse 1844 from the start.

The fourth and last word Bab of the quran is located at
57:13. I saw no connection except that the verse has 129 letters,
and talks about a barrier, some before it some behing it.

The original chapter nine of the Qur'an (= baha), had 129 verses.
Baha'u'llah left the Earth on the 129th day of the year.

There are many simple facts writen down for the coming of the
Bab and Baha'u'llah. I guess some courageous baha'is could put
the clear facts in the faces of muslims ans christians.

Just think how wonderfully place is the word "Bayan" in chapter 16.
The expression Kitab t-bayan-ha is the 1260/ 1261th word from the
start of this chapter. How many words in chapter 16 : 1844 (= 1260 ah).

May the lights of Allah enlighten the world !




Majnun.
.

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:21 pm

has anyone heard if the ban on teaching muslims or middle eastern muslims in the west has been lifted?

Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:44 pm

Majnun you said:
Baha'i is a religion, not a faith. More over it is a formation,
a psychological formation, a course. Anybody a bit smart
can see the parallel between the valleys and modern psychology.


Maybe I am wrong, but what I understand from this is that you are equating Bahai faith to psyhology. But there is a big differece, in Bahai faith or any other religion, the focus is God, but in psychology, God doesn't have any place. Psychology is for everyone, be it believer or nonbeliever in God, but believers of Bahai faith believe that if we have to be obedient to and respect Bahaulah's words completely, it's because they are from God.

Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:40 pm

Majnun, You talked about valleys. If the object of valley of love is not
God, then what is it?

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valley of love

Postby majnun » Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:28 am

Dear guests:

It seems that there is 2 guests here, so
I will answer both questions, accordingly
With what I learned from the Baha’I teachings.

The initial topic of this tread was about the
“parenthood” of the Baha’I religion, or formation, or movement, or faith,
but it drifted a little bit.

To guest 1: The valleys are about personal psychology, not the Baha’i movement.
nor the entire written revelation speaks about that.. The beginning of the written revelation aims at re-aligning the inner brains zones (region, or towns, or valleys) in such a perfect manner, that afterwards,
we are prepared to understand “higher grounds”, an improved spirituality.
The Hidden Words are a bit like a behaviour, or character polishing device.
After this necessary “labour” is done, then, the Gems (javahir) and the Certitude (Iqan) will
Lead us to understand how humanities reacted to the arrival of each new
religion, from Noah to Baha’u’llah. You probably know the rest of this
wonderful spiritual path. I think it is a perfectly understandable way of
doing things, that the messenger had to make people’s brains to work properly and correctly,
before inducing highly spiritual topics. In order to achieve this, Baha’u’llah used a sophisticated diplomacy trough specially chosen words that convey their symbolic into you,
when you recite them (valleys and H-words). The positive effects of these first tablets of the
revelations may be felt one or two years later. Ahhh, its like a therapy for the brain !
If this is not clear, dear friend, I could demonstrate, step by step.

The next part of you affirmation concern the focus on God, well what do you mean by that line ? Smart people know there is no god. Limited people are only shocked by this simple
affirmation, or they would say majnun is a representative of Satan.

Question no 2
If the object of valley of love is not
God, then what is it?

If the first valley (zone) has not been corrected properly, like the messenger
instructs, the door to the second valley will stay closed, because to feel the
emotional (love) zone (valley), you must first find and feel your real identity, by the
clear instructions of valley no 1. The term “imitations” concerns ma and pa and
our previous educators, and grand parents too.
We must erase in us what we have:
seen,
heard,
and understood,
from them. (This is the imitated material, customs and habits).

It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out.
This is how you may find back your real identity.
(This is the first basic step in modern psychology)

The object of the “valley of love” is to make the wayfarer (you and me) realise
how we tie (unconsciously) affective links to the image of a person. (falling in love).
The messenger warns: the steed (the tool) of this step is pain.
Then, the messenger show how painful it is to break these inner links we made.
Fortunately he give a special technique to melt and undo this link that keeps
us prisoners of a recorded image in our heads (the beloved man or woman).

Finally, the messenger tells us how poisonous this kind of attachment really
is. Ounce you have learned how to de-link what is linked inside you (annihilate the pains of separation from the recorded image), you
will never put this sort of chain around your neck again. You will love again, but differently,
not in that old way.
Remember, this valley is about pains, so get you Kleenex boxes ready, cause
it does hurts, when the first inner moves (waves) starts to come out.

To resume: the object of this valley is to liberate us from past affective links that
still hurts you secretly, to heal this emotional region (zone) of your brain,
to prepare you (open another inner door) toward
the next step: the objectivity of our conscience. A conscience driven by
an non stabilised affectivity, will never enjoy any objectivity.

These little steps are liberative, but the messenger incist
later by saying this “break” in you was a necessary pain.
Khidr broke the boat, but there was many a-good thing behind that action.

This means the work, the effort you will do to understand and
apply the path of these valleys (explorative mind you)
will pay off, whatever harsh and reluctant this path may
look like at first.

Morover, in valleys near the end, the messenger says it clealy:
There is no divinity (anthropomorphism) involved in this process.

(The translators chose that modern term anthropomorphism, but it is not in the persian
text, but the following lines do clear the intention that no entity whatsoever
enter nor comes out of you, while this process is running into you).

If you personally really catch what is in these valleys, it will be
an ongoin process in your life, an auto cleaning device into you that cannot be
stopped (unless you start drinking), for your own good.

In these valleys I breifly described,
there is no search for focus on a god, it is a medecine simple to
understand, destined to heal us internally, before growing up toward
more subtil things.

May this light from Allah be lit from within.
May this little text of mine be a balm and not a spike to you friends.

Majnun.

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Postby farid » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:17 am

thanks majnun for your answer. It was me (Farid) on two previous posts. I didn't notice that I apeard as quest. I don't know why it's doing this to me now. Anyway,I took a quick look at what you wrote but I stillhave to read it again tomorrow, as I won't have the time today. Meanwhile, where do you think God comes into play? One of the teachings of Bahai faith is that this world needs grace of God(I don't need the exact wording in English).
Farid

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okay

Postby majnun » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:22 pm

Our creators constantly monitoring our progress.
they feed us with these special writings, for those
Who believe in them writings, received it and apply it.

The fact that 3 major new religions offer the same
basic program (as the valleys) to reorganise our inner
life, should tell us how serious this is, to start with.

You wrote:
One of the teachings of Bahai faith is
that this world needs grace of God
Where did you read that line ?

I propose something:
we could, you and me, if you wish it, go valley by valley,
and compare our perceptions (irdaka) of it.
What do say ?

The precision of the persian text is a wonder,
Where Baha’u’llah gave himself the trouble to
really make every sentence to mean a precise thing.
In the Valleys, you will find persian words you wont find anywhere
in the whole written revelation. To me, the valleys are far from being
a mystic writing, nor is it poetry. It is a practical tool.

See you around,
Majnun.

curt

Baha'u'llah's Diplomacy

Postby curt » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:47 pm

Majnun - thanks for your insights. I enjoy them here and elsewhere. I would benefit hearing more about the Seven Valleys as that work has always left me confused. I do read it regularly, though, and never set it aside just because I don't understand the imagery.

Baha'u'llah is a very great Being! I try to honor Him by reading His Words and absorbing them. And I find that the more I read the more I want to absorb.

Thanks again.

Curt

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Postby farid » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:46 pm

Manjun, I couldn't understand why you used creator in the plural form. Monotheistic religions believe that there is one God and He is the creator. As of the humans need of grace of God, you can find it in differnt writings, here's one:

Baha'u'llah has announced that no matter how far the world of humanity may advance in material civilization, it is nevertheless in need of spiritual virtues and the bounties of God. The spirit of man is not illumined and quickened through material sources. It is not resuscitated by investigating phenomena of the world of matter. The spirit of man is in need of the protection of the Holy Spirit. Just as he advances by progressive stages from the mere physical world of being into the intellectual realm, so must he develop upward in moral attributes and spiritual graces. In the process of this attainment he is ever in need of the bestowals of the Holy Spirit.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Page: 288)

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Postby farid » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:57 pm

About your suggestion on reading the valleys, I think it's a good idea. Since you have studied it more in depth, probably the best way is that you start a new topic and as you quote from the valleys, write about your understandings, and me and others will read them and and write our own ideas and we can go ahead this way.

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to Curt and Farid, let's go !

Postby majnun » Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:24 am

I will do as you say Farid.
it should start with the Arabic prolog, then valley 1, 2, etc.

Dear Curt, what you described is almost exactly what
ive been going trough. Although i was fascinated by the valleys,
but i did not understood much of it, then i switched to the other
tablets (gems, iquan, al muluk, tablets to kings, the haykayl
the kitab al akdas, and the following tablets, then Abdul Baha's
voyages, and mister Effendi's writings. BUT,

something in the back of my mind said to me: you have to understand
those valleys fully before inserting all those new values inside.
(a clean up of my old ways of thinking). I was attracted by the depht of the
valley text.

The first thing that hit me was the difference in numbers of word
God in the english version and the number of word Allah in the
original text. The valleys are among few tablets that have not been corrected and revised by the Guardian. Its undersandable, he had
so much to do, and so little time to acheive it. Ive got nothing
against that word (God), but the difference in its apparition in
the text seemed stange.

So the 7 valleys of the Gail-Khan english version contains 45 word God,
while the arabic-persian text contains only 19. Morover, french version
by Dreyfuss contains 51 word "Dieu".

So i began to get deeper in the arabic persian text.
Meanwhile, i compared with the Meher Baba program,
and he used the same 7 basic steps to prepare the
wayfarer (called "aspirant" in the Baba terminology).

Also, the Raelian program suggest the same approach as
the Valleys to prepare the mind to move on higher grounds.

So we could start soon to compare our different perceptions
of this special preparation path. I have to bring my mom to
the hospital tomorrow, but as soon as time is availuable,
the first topic should be the arabic prologue, containing
the desdription of the program, as salute to prophet Muhammad,
and a personal invitation from Baha'u'llah to his friend who makes
anagrams with the name of birds, as an art-form for Allah.

I think this collective study should be very interesting.
The exchange of ideas between baha'is, whatever their
religious background, is always interestingly stimulative
and positive.

I should point out that each valleys are a transitory voyage,
each one is an inner exploration of separate "zones" that will
unite (unification, tauhid) to make the conscience stronger.

Ounce each of those "steps" are fully realised in you, you wont need
to read it over and over. Like Abdul Baha said somewhere:
ounce you are reborn again, you cannot go back to the in-the-wound
state you were in before.

Let's hope we will find the treasures together !

Majnun.
.

curt

Baha'u'llah's Diplomacy

Postby curt » Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:08 pm

Majnun (& Farid)

Yes, this sounds like fun. A new thread is perhaps a good idea. Meanwhile I'll dust off my tome and sharpen my pencil. I'll check in regularly.

Curt

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X-ferring post from Hasan at old site to here

Postby brettz9 » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:49 am

Hasan wrote the following at the old site (I have transferred it here... B.Z.)

brettz9 wrote:Also, along the lines of the Manifestation of God speaking in clear speech in this age, I think we should be very careful when we make interpretations implying a kind of deceipt on the part of the Manifestation. The Manifestations of God never lie, even while they may on occasion push the limits of conventional discourse (e.g., when the Báb denied to be the representative of the "imam" (the gate) but did not also indicate at that time that He was the return of the spirit of the Imám Himself). Remember, some Bahá'ís have gone to the other extreme of claiming that Bahá'u'lláh only accepted Islám to make peace with Muslims. Neither of these views is correct, as 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice have thankfully made plain to us.

Brett


Brett,

I like to read your post, yes, it is true that They never lie, it is true also that there is a "Messianic Concealment" before open proclamation.


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