Stocks and investing

All research or scholarship questions

Stocks and investing

Postby Guest » Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:00 pm

Stocks and investments. can we contribute earnings to the fund? YES.
Is it like gambling? yes and no. I am trying to explain some simply concepts of a market economy to my costa rican wife and she doesnt want to hear it. Please can someone give me some quotes or something because I know this is a non issue and I need to back it up but I am having trouble looking it up...



Postby onepence » Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:22 am

... everything is in a state of flux ... what we consider "currency" today may not be "currency" tomoorow ... I advocate investment money into solid physical event{s} not stock {and their so called certificates} ... silver ... do some research ... making a profit on silver and gold is permitted by Baha'u'llah ...

As to thy question concerning interest and profit on gold and silver: Some years ago the following passage was revealed from the heaven of the All-Merciful in honour of the one who beareth the name of God, entitled Zaynu'l-Muqarrabín [25] --upon him be the glory of the Most Glorious. He--exalted be His Word--saith: Many people stand in need of this. Because if there were no prospect for gaining interest, the affairs of men would suffer collapse or dislocation. One can seldom find a person who would manifest such consideration towards his fellow-man, his countryman or towards his own brother and would show such tender solicitude for him as to be well-disposed to grant him a loan on benevolent terms. [26] Therefore as a token of favour towards men We have prescribed that interest on money should be treated like other business transactions that are current amongst men. Thus, now that this lucid commandment hath descended from the heaven of the Will of God, it is lawful and proper to charge interest on money, that the people of the world may, in a spirit of amity and fellowship and with joy and gladness, devotedly engage themselves in magnifying the Name of Him Who is the Well-Beloved of all mankind. Verily He ordaineth according to His Own choosing. He hath now made interest on money lawful, even as He had made it unlawful in the past. Within His grasp He holdeth the kingdom of authority. He doeth and ordaineth. He is in truth the Ordainer, the All-Knowing.

83 Render thou thanks unto thy Lord, O Zaynu'l-Muqarrabín, for this manifest bounty.

Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:17 pm

Postby tipnum » Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:30 pm

Guest, can you be a little more specific about what you are trying to achieve?

From what you have written, it sounds like your wife may not understand investing in stocks. You don't mention what country you are in. In some countries, the stock markets are unstable and investing in them can be considered gambling. For the US, most of Europe and Asia, the stock markets (currently) are stable, but how one buys and sells stocks determines whether it is gambling or investing for the future. Short term trading on price alone is gambling. Buying dividend paying stock and holding for the long term is not so much a gamble.

I haven't run across any writtings about investing money.


Postby Guest » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:13 am

Regarding Mr. Bolton’s question as to whether the Guardian has given any instructions to the friends as to the best way to make their investments secure during the coming world crisis; I am instructed to inform you that no such directions have been given either to any individual believer or to any assembly. The only advice which the Guardian wishes to give is that whatever investment the friends make they should do it with the utmost caution, as economic and financial conditions are at present most unstable and even precarious. ... hlight#gr4


Postby onepence » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:14 am

h. Should the children of the deceased be minors their share should either be entrusted to a reliable person or to a company for purposes of investment, until they attain the age of maturity. A share of the interest accrued should be assigned to the trustee. ... ight#pg155


Postby onepence » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:17 am

Investing and Finance
by National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States

Dear Bahá'í Friends:

Thank you for your inquiry, via e-mail, dated May 10 and concerning several issues raised in a May 9 Internet posting by Mr. xxxx.

These are all very timely questions, as the growing maturity of the friends and their institutions, as well as the generally greater amounts required to attend to the needs of the Faith, lead us into financial and spiritual territory that has hitherto been largely unexplored. Moreover, our emergence from obscurity demands that the investment decisions we make, whether individually or collectively through our institutions, reflect the principles of the Faith and the highest standards of integrity, quality and concern for the well-being of the fellow members of our human family.

First, and with regard to your specific question, the basic principle was enunciated in a letter written on behalf of the beloved Guardian and published in Letters to Australia and New Zealand, p. 20: "The only advice the Guardian wishes to give is that whatever investment the friends make they should do it with the utmost caution, as economic and financial conditions are at present most unstable and even precarious." The Universal House of Justice further stated, in a set of guidelines for National Spiritual Assemblies that was shared with local bodies by our National Assembly on February 24, 1992, that "The National Spiritual Assembly itself must ensure that proper provision is made for preserving the value of financial reserves by wise and careful management."

The National Spiritual Assembly has, in its own practice to date, taken this guidance to mean that investment instruments must reflect the very best risk available in the market; return is a less important criterion. Further, with the rapid proliferation of investment vehicles, not all of whose effects are known or predictable even to highly accomplished financial professionals, an extra measure of caution is called for---the risks affect both the sacrificial offerings of the believers, a sacred trust, and the future development of the Cause.

These criteria perforce narrow the range of acceptable investment options for Bahá'í institutions. Most government securities, certificates of deposit from commercial banks with the highest ratings (at least AA-/Standard and Poore rating and Aa3/Moody's Investors' Service rating), and so-called "A1/P1" commercial paper from leading corporations whose businesses conform to our standards as Bahá'ís would likely be on that short list. Maturity limits, i.e. the time periods (tenors) for which funds can be invested, can be somewhat flexible; the intent would be to match cash flow patterns and to avoid speculation on market trends, a practice which could subject an institution's investments to additional risk.

In practice, the paucity of cash available to the National Spiritual Assembly, owing to the relatively modest contribution income of the last several years, further limits the Assembly's options, whether in terms of investment tenor or of the vehicles used. The National Spiritual Assembly does have an investment policy which guides its staff in the discharge of this responsibility, and local Spiritual Assemblies would be well-advised to create their own policies that fit their particular circumstances.

Naturally, individuals have greater latitude in choosing their investments. Mr. xxxx makes some cogent points about mutual funds; these obstacles are not, however, insurmountable in our view. Diligent research can disclose the various holdings of the mutual fund, at least by industry sector, and where that information is not available, the believer always has alternative options to a prospective investment.

Regarding a "Bahá'í money manager," there are already a number of Bahá'í professionals in the field of finance, of course, but we are not aware of any believer who is himself or herself the manager of a fund, or of a fund specifically directed to the use of Bahá'í investors. The National Spiritual Assembly has given some consideration over the last several years to the creation of different kinds of investment options for the friends, but staff has so far been too overextended with existing priorities to give this subject the study and community dialogue it requires.

Finally, the creation of a national foundation is an ambitious notion which certainly has merit. We question whether the institutional and administrative capacity is yet present to manage such an entity, and in any event we fall back to the previous point: there are not, as yet, the human resources identified or available to perform the rigorous analysis prudence would demand in this connection.

One important aspect that would have to be meticulously considered for these purposes is the guidance, given by the Universal House of Justice as recently as 1989, that the creation of a financial institution associated with the administration was not deemed timely. The Supreme Body did leave open the option that individual believers could establish some kind of private bank, but stated "it should be conceived entirely as a private, commercial undertaking, and entered into on sound business lines." (On behalf of the Universal House of Justice, 13 August 1989)

The National Spiritual Assembly is committed, however, to establishing a viable planned, or deferred, giving program during the Four Year Plan. This can begin with every believer, who must, in accordance with the provisions of the Kit?b-i-Aqdas, make a will in order to testify to her or his belief in God and to dispose of personal belongings. This act of obedience attracts blessings in and of itself, while the "execution of the provisions of the will causes the spirit of the deceased to rejoice in the Abh? Kingdom (on behalf of Shoghi Effendi)." More complex vehicles can and should be explored by the friends, and this Office is presently developing a capacity to assist the believers in this process. Additional details will be communicated as they become available, including the interesting possibility of a national conference for professionals in this area.

Finally, we must admit that we take some exception to the comment that there is a "great deal of spiritual ambivalence about money in the US Bahá'í community." There is always room for a deeper understanding of every aspect of the Faith, the role of material means included. The community, however, was set a demanding test in the year just past, a test of obedience and firmness in the Covenant whose outward manifestation was financial: would we give our share for the Arc? Tens of thousands of believers, young and old, men and women, rich and poor alike, stepped forward, doing whatever they could out of love for the Cause, for Bahá'í'll?h, and for His Universal House of Justice. The result: more than $23 million was offered to the Arc and an additional $13 million offered to the national and international funds. There may be some friends who do feel ambivalence; they would appear to be a dwindling minority, while another, more vital group is pressing forward to seize victories for the Cause.

The more important questions seem to us to be whether our offerings will be accepted by the Blessed Beauty, and whether the community will maintain the commitment to the Faith's future that we have so strikingly demonstrated in the last 12 months.

We hope this information is useful to your consultation, just as the questions have been helpful for us to consider here. Please convey loving greetings to the members of your esteemed Spiritual Assembly and your community.

In His service,
Finance Coordinator

Guest ?


Postby Guest ? » Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:24 pm

Has anyone checked out this "onepence" with NSA ?

Omid Townsend
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:48 am
Location: Florida


Postby Omid Townsend » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:12 pm

I have done some research and I have start a high intrest savings account, a 401k, a ROTH ira, a bokerage account and I buy the occassional savings bond. I dont think there would be anything against Bahais investing in the markets. Based on the writings, there are certain aspects of the future that are well established as part of the Bahai world. WHy not invest in those ideas not only spiritually but finacially. I have a portfolio filled with China realted companies... "China is the country of the future" -Abdul'Baha


Re: reply

Postby onepence » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:16 pm

Guest ? wrote:Has anyone checked out this "onepence" with NSA ?

Dean Hedges
USA Baha'i ID # 0136629

any other questions please feel free to ask

a person of oneness,
Dean Hedges
435 E Church Ave
Longwood FL 32750
USA Baha'i ID # 0136629

Omid Townsend
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:48 am
Location: Florida


Postby Omid Townsend » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:25 pm

Hi Dean,

sometimes the boards can be a wierd place. I appreciate you help in locating that email from the NSA. Very insightful. I imagine one day that rich Bahais will start a bank and branch out across the globe and become reputible in their business. Does any one know of a Bahai stock broker?



Postby Guest? » Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:59 pm

checking on it right now. thanks.


Re: reply

Postby onepence » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:27 pm

Guest? wrote:checking on it right now. thanks.

I am still here .... just haven't had much to say ...
... silver been doing nice lately ... at about $8.05 as I write ...
... think about silver ... and the dowry ... every man women & child ...
... think about how many people have never seen real silver ... let alone held a piece of real silver in their own hands ...

... also gotta love that copper ... it's the most liquid foundation of our House of Finance ... seldom is value found on the edges ... get physical


`It is not his to boast who loveth his country , but it is his
who loveth the world.'

Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh revealed after the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, pp. 87-88:


Postby Guest » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:33 pm

Originally Posted by FoundingFathers
If true - this could set off a chain reaction of ugly events. Physical looks better and better every day.

Maybe Bush went to China to deliver a pile of pre-1982 pennies

Nov. 18 (Bloomberg) -- China may default on money-losing copper trades because the country doesn't have enough of the metal to make good on delivery commitments next month, said Mark Topfer, the former No. 2 lawyer at the London Metal Exchange.

China's obligations for copper deliveries into exchange- approved warehouses are ``infinitely higher than the stock that exists,'' said Topfer, a senior associate director at law firm Norton Rose in London. He was the exchange's deputy general counsel until last year and advises LME brokers and customers.

As much as 200,000 metric tons of copper must be delivered because of positions amassed by Liu Qibing, a trader for an affiliate of the National Development and Reform Commission, the top planning agency, the state-run China Daily said Nov. 17, citing an unidentified official. There are only about 140,000 tons of copper in global warehouses, Topfer said.

Liu hasn't been at work since last month, two people at companies that traded with him told Bloomberg Nov. 15, declining to be identified. He didn't answer e-mails or calls to his mobile and landline phones that day. A foreign media report that Liu is working for the State Reserve Bureau is fabricated, the China Daily said, citing the official.

``They are denying that this person exists,'' said Topfer, who works in Norton Rose's financial markets division. ``That seems to send the message that they're not delivering'' on their commitments, he said in a telephone interview yesterday.

Eight Brokers

The LME, the world's biggest metals exchange, may employ its special committee to settle a dispute between China and as many as eight brokers who have done business with Liu if the State Reserve Bureau, or SRB, reneges on the positions, Topfer said.

Adam Robinson, an LME spokesman based in London, declined to comment yesterday. Calls to the SRB spokesman in Beijing were not answered today.

The positions are based on so-called short trades, in which a speculator enters a contract pledging to deliver a commodity by a specific date at a preset price. The bet is that prices will fall so that delivery can be made with supplies that are cheaper than when the contract was sold.

Liu isn't authorized to trade with the LME, according to David Cliffe, a spokesman for the U.K.'s Financial Services Authority in London, which regulates the exchange.

China may incur losses of as much as $300 million, Wang Zheng, a trader at Shanghai Dalu Futures Co., said in a telephone interview from Shanghai yesterday.


Copper has more than doubled in value since ...



Gold is trading like a currency

Postby onepence » Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:55 pm

Survey Shows

``Gold is trading like a currency,'' said Fulinda Malone- Rouse, business-development manager in New York for EBS Dealing Resources, a London-based spot market that handles $120 billion in daily gold, silver and foreign currency transactions. Trading is up 30 percent this year, and ``we're seeing banks start to refocus on metals,'' Malone-Rouse said. ``We're also seeing foreign-exchange traders trade gold.''

Gold for ...



silver & gold 600 yrs

Postby onepence » Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:13 pm

This is a 600 year graph of silver prices and silver/gold ratio from 1344 to 1998 as shown in 1998 dollars.

a person of oneness,
Dean Hedges


Postby Guest » Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:29 pm

DGCX: Dubai has a new option for the region's future

19 November 2005 ... iness&col=

DUBAI— Dubai has done it again! In just 12 months the city has built itself one of the worlds most technologically advanced multi-commodities derivatives exchanges and the trading system is ready to go live in just two days.

When the original plan for setting up ...


Not shy of physicals

DGCX will offer fully dematerialised trading system. Although the trading will be margin based and settlements are done using Dubai Gold Receipts (the equivalent of cash in DGCX), the exchange also offers the option for traders to take delivery in physicals.

"World over, physical delivery constitutes less than 2 per cent of the total trade. However it is important to give the physical delivery option, as physicals are necessary to keep the stability in the spot market. In the absence of physical deliveries, speculators could drive the prices on the market," said Pochara.

While the exchange has appointed HSBC and National Bank of Dubai as clearing banks, to keep up with the physical delivery requirements, it has empanelled Brinks, MAF Securicor and Transguard as approved vaults for gold and silver deliveries. The approved brands in gold bars include Rand Refineries, South Africa, Valcambi, Metalor Technologies, Switzerland, GR Mathey, Australia, PAMP Switzerland, Johnason Mathey, Hong Kong and Argor Heraeus, Switzerland.

The exchange has plans to provide physical deliveries in other commodities contracts too. "While the spot market stability is an important motive in offering physical deliveries, we are also abiding by Islamic principles of commodities trading where an underlying real asset is a must for a valid contract," Khan added.

DGCX opened its membership last June and received an overwhelming response of ...




a strange collection

Postby onepence » Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:06 pm

Our Money Madness
by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.
[Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005] [To receive the Daily Article in your inbox, go to email services, and tell others too!]

We flatter ourselves, in this technological age driven by financial innovation and mind-boggling efficiencies, that we know more than any previous generation. But there is lost knowledge, among which is the knowledge of what sound money feels and looks like, what it does, who makes it and why, and how it holds its value.

So let us revisit Robert Louis Stevenson's classic story, Treasure Island, and the climactic scene where the pirates and their companions have finally found their treasure and prepare to haul it away. The narrator reports as follows:

It was a strange collection, like Billy Bones's hoard for the diversity of coinage, but so much larger and so much more varied that I think I never had more pleasure than in sorting them. English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Georges, and Louises, doubloons and double guineas and moidores and sequins, the pictures of all the kings of Europe for the last hundred years, strange Oriental pieces stamped with what looked like wisps of string or bits of spider's web, round pieces and square pieces, and pieces bored through the middle, as if to wear them round your neck -- nearly every variety of money in the world must, I think, have found a place in that collection; and for number, I am sure they were like autumn leaves, so that my back ached with stooping and my fingers with sorting them out.

There is more to learn about real money from this paragraph than in most money and banking texts. Here we discover that money is international. It matters not what nation-state or private party mints it. Money can come in all shapes and sizes. It has enduring value for hundreds of years. It can be put in a vault and found by anyone in the future and retains its value. Its merit as money is not dependent on the existence or persistence of any single government.

The regimes that minted the coins may be long forgotten but the money they made stays as a permanent part of the economic landscape until it is melted. What this suggests is independence for the people who have, hold, and use the money. They are not roped into any regime as such. They go about their economic affairs as independent people. Their money, which cannot be destroyed by the actions of a central government or a central bank, testifies to their status as free people.

And what is it made of? Gold, silver, or any precious metal, something or anything that will cause a back to ache and the fingers to hurt from sorting them out. Money is heavy, robust, durable, divisible, enduring. It is treasure. It worth hiding when one is in trouble and worth hunting for if one stumbles upon a map to guide you there. As to when it was minted and by whom, it doesn't matter. Money lasts. Money is true. It transcends the generations. It transcends the nation. It transcends the state.

As for any money minted or printed in the last fifty years, some of it may have value as a collectible but its value would vanish to near zero if it were melted. As for the paper, it would be truly worthless. One can imagine the scene in Treasure Island had they opened the trunk to discover wads of paper currency from ...



Postby Guest » Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:22 pm

"Energy, not money, is the original currency, the source of all wealth."



on gold holdings

Postby onepence » Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:24 am

Bankers perplex on gold holdings

David McKay

Posted: Tue, 22 Nov 2005

[] -- IT’S at times such as the London Bullion Market Association conference, which was held in Johannesburg last week, that the world’s central bankers put in a rare collective appearance.

But emerging blinking into the harsh glare of South Africa’s sun, they did little to settle the nerves of the gold market, which finds itself pondering central bank attitudes to bullion now that the gold price is 44% better than in 1999.

Philip Klapwijk, executive chairman of UK consultancy GFMS, said that the official sector has been a net seller of gold from about 1987. But now the gold market is in a bull run. Could that be the platform for a change in attitude? Might central banks not just seek to hold gold but to increase their reserves?

Some do. “Calculations by the Central Bank of Russia showed that about 10% of gold in reserves would be appropriate. Today the proportion of gold in our reserves in about 5% in market valuation,” said Maria Guegina, from the Central Bank of the Russian Federation.

The implication is that the Russians will seek more gold, just as Argentina’s bank did last year, when it bought 42 tons of the metal. And it’s now seeking to derive as much value from its reserves as possible by lending it, according to Juan Basco, head of market operations at the Banco Central de la Republica Argentina. “It’s all about yield.”

That reflects another growing view on gold, which holds that it shouldn’t idle in a vault but be made to work – providing a yield, as any currency reserve would. However, here’s the rub: in the context of low interest rates, and with gold at a multi-year high, perhaps it makes better sense to sell gold?

“Our bank is to sell gold over the coming years – but it won’t be irrespective of price,” said Isabelle Strauss-Kahn, director of the market operations department at Banque de France. France holds 50g of gold per capita compared with 10g/capita in Britain, so it has exposure to gold. But “. . .proceeds from the gold sales will be invested in high yielding currencies”.

“We are sellers of small quantities of gold,” said Peter Zoellner, executive director at the Austrian Central Bank. “But we want to optimise rather than maximise our returns.” In bank speak, that means the Austrians are to sell small amounts of gold even though it remains a believer.

Given the lack of ...



India eyes

Postby onepence » Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:30 am

India eyes hedging at Dubai's gold futures

Wednesday 23 November 2005 ... ueID=28248

NEW DELHI: Bullion traders in India, the world's largest importer, said yesterday the launch of the Dubai gold futures exchange has opened the doors for them to hedge in the international market. The Dubai Gold and Commodities Exchange (DGCX) <0#DDG:>, a joint venture between the Government of Dubai and India's Multi Commodity Exchange, opened for business at 0600 GMT with the key February contract at $495.00 an ounce.

"I can hedge in New York but for that I have to stay awake all night," said Girish Chokshi, a leading bullion trader in the western city of Ahmedabad. "Dubai is just one and half hours behind us and it will run almost parallel to our time zone."

Dubai is renowned as a centre for the physical gold industry in the Middle East and India. Its strategic location between Asia and Europe also make it an ideal trading hub.

India, home to more than 1 billion people, imports about two-thirds of its annual gold needs of up to 700 to 800 tonnes.

Gold consumption in India is expected to surge nearly 33 per cent in 2005 to 850 tonnes because of higher incomes and good farm output, according to the World Gold Council.

Dealers said ...



Gold in decline

Postby onepence » Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:36 am

Gold in decline

23 November 2005 ... BD4A117040

IT’s a bit sad really. Just as the gold price heads for $500/oz, a level last seen in 1987, SA’s mining industry reports a further steep fall in gold production. The price may be great, and with a weaker exchange rate the rand gold price is looking good too — it’s up nearly a third for the year to date. But the domestic gold industry is still in cost- and kilogram-cutting mode.

Latest Chamber of Mines figures show third-quarter gold output has fallen to 72,4 tons, more than 15% below the year-ago quarter.

That reflects the continued cutbacks producers have embarked on, particularly in the past couple of years, in a bid to hold on to profitability in the face of a stronger rand and sliding rand revenues. The margin to be earned on each ounce, not the quantity of ounces, is all that counts and unprofitable ounces have been ruthlessly stripped out in recent years. It’s a capital-intensive industry that turns only very slowly and next year’s output numbers are expected to look a little better, due to new projects that are due to come on stream. But the rand’s fortunes tend to trend with the gold price, and even though gold’s dollar price has been rising in recent weeks, so has the rand. It’s possible we could get the happy combination of a strong dollar gold price and weaker rand. But no one in the gold industry is banking on it.

Gold’s role in SA’s economy has been shrinking for a long time now. And that trend is likely to continue. Gold exports have contracted from 51% of SA’s visible exports in 1980 to 9,4% last year. Employment has fallen from 476000 to 175000 over that period. And over the past decade, gold mining’s contribution to gross domestic product has more than halved, from 3,2% to 1,5%.

These figures were cited recently by ...



tea leaves

Postby onepence » Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:08 am

Dubia is sounding oddly familiar
ie Christian storehouse/ Baha'i House of Finance
secular Islam/lesser peace
what dost thou read from the tea leaves?


Dubai's new tea trading centre plans to expand
October 20, 2005

Dubai - Dubai's fledgling tea trading centre has bold ambitions and could trade other soft commodities like coffee and spices in the longer term, according to Sanjay Sethi, the head of the Dubai Tea Trading Centre (DTTC).

With about 250 tons consumed annually, the Middle East is the second-largest consumer of tea, accounting for 24 percent of global tea imports.

Created in December 2004, the trading centre started receiving teas in March and has already transacted 1 000 tons of leaf from nine countries.

The DTTC is part of the Dubai Metals and Commodities Centre, a state-run free zone that aims to make the Gulf emirate a major commodities centre.

David Rutledge, the chief executive of the commodities centre, said the target was to increase the flow of tea through Dubai by between 10 percent and 15 percent in the next three years to 70 million kilograms.

The DTCC offers members 60 days' free storage, preferential clearing at Dubai ports, financing, blending facilities and a 50-year tax holiday. They are incentives that Kenyan rival Mombasa is struggling to match.

Kenya is one of the three largest producers of black tea. Its auction, the second-largest black tea market, offered 305 000 tons of African teas last year.

The DTTC is not an auction but a platform for buyers and sellers. It does not set prices nor take part in negotiations.

Sethi said consumption of Kenyan tea was still fairly nominal in the Middle East. Instead of viewing the DTTC as a threat, Kenya's tea traders should look at it as an opportunity to build demand in the region for their teas.

Sethi said the DTTC would look at other commodities, such as coffee and spices, once the tea trade was firmly established.

Jensen's Alpha

Postby Jensen's Alpha » Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:34 pm

Stocks and investments. can we contribute earnings to the fund? YES.
Is it like gambling? yes and no. I am trying to explain some simply concepts of a market economy to my costa rican wife and she doesnt want to hear it. Please can someone give me some quotes or something because I know this is a non issue and I need to back it up but I am having trouble looking it up...


I'm not really sure what you're trying to say in the first sentence.

Is what like gambling? If you mean investments, then no. It can certainly be treated like gambling. That is, you can just randomly buy or sell things but that's not what people do.

If you wish to explain simple concepts of a market economy to someone, start out with demand, supply and the invisible hand. Talk about why a transparent market is the best method of price discovery and why this is important for allocating assets.

The Baha'i writings refer to the right of the individual to work, carry on a business, etc. and as such they are favorable towards a capital market economy. The principles of the Faith oppose communism, Marxism and fascism. The Faith recognizes the freedom of the individual (to move, work, create) as well as the fact that not all individuals are endowed with the same capacities.

Baha'u'llah also gives permission for Baha'is to use golden utensils and cups (a bit extravagant but you get the point).

Now go forth, invest, work, trade and grow rich. Your God commands you:

<a href=""> O MY SERVANT!

The best of men are they that earn a livelihood by their calling and spend upon themselves and upon their kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds. </a>

ps as to the merits of gold/silver and other commodities, they deserve a place in a proper portfolio at the right time but I would advise against rushing to fill your account with them now. And Dubai or other places will never be able to dislodge the deep pools of liquidity you find in Chicago. They're welcome to try (many have) and waste their petrodollars but Chicago pits rule the financial world.


Postby Guest » Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:57 pm

Jensen's Alpha wrote: ...

ps as to the merits of gold/silver and other commodities, they deserve a place in a proper portfolio at the right time but I would advise against rushing to fill your account with them now. And Dubai or other places will never be able to dislodge the deep pools of liquidity you find in Chicago. They're welcome to try (many have) and waste their petrodollars but Chicago pits rule the financial world.

chasing paper
'tis a foolish thing

lol ... let me think o let me think

what to do with all those trillions of usd

lol ... burn em/hoard em/wipe my sons nose with em ...

lol ...

Silver: A Rare Opportunity
David Zurbuchen

As little as one hundred years ago, a silver dime paid a worker for a full days worth of work. At today's fire-sale prices, you can buy those same 90% silver dimes for about 60 cents each. In fact, for under $6000 dollars one can purchase a 55lb bag filled with 10,000 silver dimes, the equivalent of 37 years of hard labor for over 2,000 years of history. In fact, in 1980 one of these bags was able to buy a comfortable home (Silver Ounces/Cost of Home)

Obviously silver is no longer used monetarily or these dimes wouldn't be for sale at such a ridiculous price, but does this necessarily mean that the price of silver should stagnate, only to revert back to its historic norms in the event of a worldwide return to the use of silver and gold as money? Not at all. Silver, as well as gold, should appreciate in price dramatically, regardless of monetary interest, which is, nevertheless, being seriously considered by Mexico.

Prior to the 20th century, silver's demand was almost entirely monetary. It was only until the industrial revolution and the advent of the modern electronic age that silver became an industrial metal. Though today absolutely no monetary demand exists, there has nevertheless been a documented 15 year supply-side deficit (CPM 2005 Silver Survey 2005). This demand has largely been met by government dis-hoarding, which has served to flood the market, partially explaining the long bear market in silver up until recently--with the exception of the dramatic price action of the late 1970's and early 80's.

Speaking of 1980, (the year silver peaked at $150/oz in inflated terms) in that year all the governments of the world could claim a collective silver stockpile of about 2 billion ounces. Today, the total world government supply has shrunk to an estimated 200 million ounces (Silver Survey 2004 pg. 32), an amazing 98% decrease in a period of just 25 years. It appears that the U.S wins the boobie prize in silver liquidation, as it has managed to sell the largest stockpile in the history of the world (6 billion ounces in 1930) in just 72 years. That's correct, the US stockpile ran dry in 2002, after systematically selling its silver into the market for over seven decades. In fact, the US government now has to purchase about 10 million ounces of silver every year in order mint its popular 1 ounce Silver Eagles.

Now don't imagine that the 6 billion ounces that were sold into into the market somehow found their way into another warehouse, with the potential to be sold back into the market again. Instead, it must be understood that the majority of that silver has long since been used up by industry, having been consumed in minute amounts that are not capable of being recovered. The silver truly is gone forever.

In the 20th century alone, an estimated 36 billion ounces out of the 40 billion ounces of silver ever mined in the history of the world have been consumed . This means that only about 4 billion ounces of silver remain above ground, and most of it in the form of silverware and jewelry, forms of silver that will not come to market until silver reaches a minimum of $40-$50/oz. Since the total amount of silver bullion in in the world amounts to 671 M ounces (Silver Survey 2004 pg. 32), and the average supply/demand deficit runs around 100 million ounces per year, not much of cushion exists any longer and the potential for industrial stockpiling is probable.

This leads to the most shocking conclusion of all, that Silver is indeed as rare or even more rare than gold. About 95% of the 4-5 billion ounces of gold ever mined (World Gold Council) is still in circulation, since about 95% of gold mined every year is used in jewelry, bullion, or bullion equivalent. Thus, the total gold inventory grows every year, where as silver is now consumed faster than it can be mined, because it is such an essential industrial component. Silver is then either as rare (4 billion ounces vs. 4 billion ounces) or more rare than gold. And remember, most silver is not accessible to the market at these prices. Yet somehow, Gold still trades at a premium of 60:1 to silver, even while historically, gold only traded at a premium of 15:1, and that was when silver was 10-15 times less rare that gold!

The Silver Story, of which this article has only related in part, is representative of perhaps the single greatest investment opportunity in history, in terms of risk/reward ratios. Historically, silver was 20-200 times more valuable than today's quoted price of $8/oz., and that despite the fact that today it is 10 times more rare. Silver is used in more applications than any other commodity besides petroleum, and the USGS estimates that there are only about 30 more years of mine life left for the metal (World Reserves ), the least of any other. At this point, there is little to suggest that the price of silver will ever trade below $7/oz again, and certainly not below $5/oz, while the potential gains to be made are incredible. Considering that both the DJI and SP 500 have offered little more than a 2% yearly return since 2000, not even able to keep up with the government's own inflation figures (DJI, SP 500), silver and gold are once again becoming worthy editions to investment portfolios.

Armed with this information, you ought to know what to do. Open that phone book of yours and plan a trip to your local coin store. Purchase as much silver as you reasonably can and then sit back, relax, and watch the price rise ever higher. Now, if you happen to be like me, and enjoy the added volatility and leverage that silver mining stocks have to offer, I invite you to subscribe to my Free Silver Stock Newsletter found here:

Oh, and did I fail to mention that silver in not traceable, therefore, not technically taxable. So don't delay, free yourself by disposing those worthless fiat notes today, exchanging them for intrinsic value, a true store of wealth, the most lustrous of metals, humble silver.

November 21, 2005


Jensen's Alpha

Postby Jensen's Alpha » Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:01 pm

What can I say? You convinced me! Your constant c/p of other people's ideas (apparently you don't have any yourself) has lead me to conclude that we should all move to Dubai or India and to buy as much gold and silver as possible.


Postby Guest » Thu Nov 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Jensen's Alpha wrote:What can I say? You convinced me! Your constant c/p of other people's ideas (apparently you don't have any yourself) has lead me to conclude that we should all move to Dubai or India and to buy as much gold and silver as possible.

sweet man ... always awesome to hear of one's desire to sacrifice all and learn how to pioneer for our Cause ... even though I know you are sorta teasing me I still think it is awesome that you not only chose to read my c/p{s} but also to respond ... not many people do you know ... I would say on avg I write{c/p} at least three notes a day with a reading audiance of 100/1000+ and out of that group maybe 75 people have actually wrote/corresponded with me ... so ... whenever anybody does ... I get this little personal rapture ... like ... wow ... maybe I am making a difference ... ...... .... then again maybe I'm not ... what is it that Baha'u'llah says ... 'nobody knows what his own end shall be' ...... but yea talking about Dubia and the UAE I was reading a while back ago that the UAE allowed a Baha'i cementary to be constructed ... oh and about the silver/gold thing ... some of those realities are too beautiful for words ...

what do you think the silver/gold price/realities will look like 3 yrs hecnce?

I like the following part of a message from Ridvan 152 - Ridvan 1995

Let no excessive self-criticism or any feelings of inadequacy, inability or inexperience hinder you or cause you to be afraid. Bury your fears in the assurances of Baha'u'llah. Has He not asserted that upon anyone who mentions His name will descend the "hosts of divine inspiration" and that on such a one will also descend the "Concourse on high, each bearing aloft a chalice of pure light:? Step forth, then into the arena where all His loved ones are equally summoned, equally challenged and abundantly belessed. for to teach, Baha'u'llah Himself affirms, is to do the "most meritorious of all deeds". And at this extraordinary moment in the history of the planet, nothing whatever is of more critical importnce than inviting people of every sort and every gift to the banquet table of the Lord of Hosts.

As we send you this message, clearly before us is a vision of untold victories waiting to be seized. We are certain you can realise a myriad of these in the remaining time of the Three Year Plan. Just such an accomplishment must earnestly be striven for, so as to set the stage for the next global enterprise to be launched at Ridvan 1996. There shall be mobilised then a world-embracing campaign to ensure a befitting crescendo to the achievements of a century regarded by no less than Abdu'l-Baha Himself as a period that will have "left traces which shall last forever".

With loving baha'i greetings,

The Universal House of Justice


"Step forth, then into the arena where all His loved ones are equally summoned" ... commerce/trade/work/wage ... copper/silver/gold/common Faith ...



Postby Guest » Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:05 am

"First of all, the heir to the throne took a silver ball on which had been drawn circles and lines [showing] the form of the heavens, corresponding to the heavenly bodies of Ptolemy, and which the astronomers and astrologers call a globe. Nasir al-Din Mirza held it in his hand, then rolled it in the direction of his holiness, asking a question concerning ... " ... n&ie=UTF-8


Dear Readers of This Thread,

It appears a note has been erassed or maybe I just have a bad case of alzhermers ... but for whatever reason thou shalt like to have {lay claim/seize upon} I find it for at least a time to find some fragment within the Baha'i Library Online that deals with value/worth that, God willing, will make more direct ties to the Teachings within our glorious Faith and the copy/paste items that I like to present here ...

I am sure that most readers don't really need the kid gloves treatment but still it is fun sometimes to read/write about value/worth ... ...

... odd how the above sample from the library all sorts of veiled refrences to value/worth ... and how our own individual soul is often tried/put on trial/judged ... in fact even writing styles are often judged ... for instance from the above citied work ...

{The `ulama criticized the verses of his holiness on the grounds of [illegible], and said: 'They do not comply with the rules of grammar and syntax, and are replete with errors.' }

therefore I humbly beseech the readers/moderator{s} of this little discussion group to please allow a little leeway ... if need be I can and will relate every news item I wish to post to some aspect of our glorious Teachings and trace all things {history/money/past/present/future} directly to & from the Beloved ...

for instance ... the following article deals with certain aspects of silver as an investment ... granted this current form of silver can never compare to the exact globe mentioned in the above article, but still it is a mighty fine article ... ... =6&id=3144

As a supposedly precious metal, silver is very much a poor cousin. Not only does gold steal the spotlight, particularly in acting ...




Postby onepence » Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:25 am

somebody a while back ago on this thred mentioned China ...
I let it go without bringing up my true thoughts/feelings because I didn't want to offend ... but ... I now find it prudent&wise to point out a few very very obvious things ... first the current political leaders of today are communist enough said ... second when the term country is used my first instinct is to think of cow/goat/sheep pasture ... third I shall never forget Tibet ... fourth do you guys even know what is/has happen{ed} to/in Nepal? .... fifth ... oh let us just be gracious and say copper what copper I don't need any of china's sticken copper ... 6th ... t=Business



german marks

Postby onepence » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:46 pm

Originally Posted by stillprepping
this is where we're heading .. and i doubt theres anything that will (can?) be done to stop it.

fwiw .. the gold/silver ratio was fairly constant at about 14-16:1, compared to 58:1 today. ... 1133923161


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