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a *new* religion

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:27 am
by nameless
#1. i am really ANGRY at the fact that those in minority are deemed weak and corrupt and hence always persecuted by others, very very often in the name of god.

#2. anyway. i have a read a bit about bahaism and from what i read from their own sources (read websites), i get that they believe it to be a natural progression from islam or what was revealed to muhammad. muslims however, on the other hand are too keen to label them as having nothing to do with islam. notwithstanding these points, i want to ask a few things direct to the bahais.

#3. 1 of the reasons as to 'why bahaism?' is that god updates the rules and regulation with time. as such, the rules brought by muhammad have met their expiry date and the rules of bahaullah have to be adopted for an up-to-date living.

#4. but considering the fact that bahaullah lived around 150 years back, and the most notable changes in human progress has taken place in probably the last 50 or so years, how do u as a bahai reconcile the fact that the dire need for a messenger is now rather than say 150 years back?

#5. also, which laws of quran need updating, that the laws of bahaullah had to be revealed. i mean most of the quranic laws are universal and also not at all restricted by time. eg: lower ur gaze, maintain ur chastity, feed and help the needy, be moderate and sparing etc etc.

#6. since i do not believe in god, including allah, i have no sides to take based on prejudice except that which is innate to me.

discipline of self-definition

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:37 am
by onepence
THE CONCEPT OF SPIRITUALITY1

`WILLIAM S. HATCHER



Introduction


HUMAN history has witnessed the birth, proliferation, and death of countless religions, belief systems, and philosophies. Though the generating impulse for each of these systems is undoubtedly related to numerous particular cultural and psychological factors, there runs through virtually all of them the common idea that man is not, in his naturally given human state, whole or complete. The concomitant to this belief is the idea that man must undergo some process of completion, some discipline of self-definition. Such a process is usually regarded by its exponents as the basic purpose of man's existence, for through it man is seen to acquire or develop what is essential and universal, and not merely accidental and local, within the range of human potentiality. By this process, he defines what he truly is by becoming what he most truly can be. The process is often described as one of `salvation', of being lifted above the condition of unregeneration (or spiritual death) to the plane of a superior reality.

The revealed religions have been major sources of such salvation concepts, spiritual philosophies, and spiritual disciplines. Historically, the revealed religions would seem to be united in affirming, each in its own particular way, that there is an objectively real spiritual dimension to the universe, and that this spiritual dimension of existence is for man the most fundamental and the most important aspect of reality. However, the revealed religions also appear, at least at first glance, to exhibit a disturbing degree of difference in their respective views of the exact nature of this spiritual reality and of how man should relate properly to it. Moreover, most of the traditional systems of religious belief appear now to have crystallized into rigid social patterns and dogmatic attitudes of thought and belief with which the modern ethos of rapid social and intellectual change seems incompatible.

The changes in modern-day society are being wrought primarily by a highly efficient, powerful, and established science which owes little or nothing to established religion. Whereas the religions, for the most part, continue to press harder and harder their mutually contradictory claims each to possess an absolute and unchanging truth which admits no compromise, science is based squarely on the idea that truth is relative and progressive, that what is useful and productive in the realm of ideas and techniques today may be obsolete and unproductive tomorrow. Thus, traditional religion has come to abhor and fear change while science thrives upon it.

Yet, science and technology have not given man the sense of wholeness he has so long been seeking, even though they have given him a vastly increased power to control and manipulate his physical environment. The sense of incompleteness and the conscious need for transcendence, for contact with some deep spiritual reality, are widespread in our society. Indeed, hardly at any other time of history or in any other culture has the sense of spiritual inadequacy been so acute as is currently the case in industrialized, high-technology, Western culture. But if contemporary man turns to religion for enlightenment, he too often finds dogmatism, which his mind cannot accept, or mindless emotionalism, which is not worthy of acceptance.

From the modern perspective, ...

http://bahai-library.com/?file=hatcher_ ... irituality

uh oh

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:05 am
by nameless
#1. hmmmm, why is that i always run into people having denominations of the likes of one pence and 2 penny. :p

ummm...

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:57 am
by nameless
#1. no offence meant there. just quite an interesting coincidence that for a long time i had been interacting with a group self-proclaimed as '2 penny' and each of the members also being a '2 penny'.

#2. and now to come across 'onecent'. hope u dont take it the wrong way, it was just a bit interesting.

#3. and i am still waiting to hear which laws of quran need to be updated. might come in handy the next time somebody tells me ' u dont believe in allah!!!!'. as if its the end of the world.

Re: ummm...

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:47 am
by Guest
nameless wrote:#1. no offence meant there. just quite an interesting coincidence that for a long time i had been interacting with a group self-proclaimed as '2 penny' and each of the members also being a '2 penny'.

#2. and now to come across 'onecent'. hope u dont take it the wrong way, it was just a bit interesting.

#3. and i am still waiting to hear which laws of quran need to be updated. might come in handy the next time somebody tells me ' u dont believe in allah!!!!'. as if its the end of the world.


money ... how is it defined in Islam ... Baha'u'llah allows for interest on silver & gold ... no offense to taken as to onepence/twopence ... if you could point me in the direction of the twopence group it would be appreciated .... a person of oneness,dh

Re: a *new* religion

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:21 am
by Guest
nameless wrote:#4. but considering the fact that bahaullah lived around 150 years back, and the most notable changes in human progress has taken place in probably the last 50 or so years, how do u as a bahai reconcile the fact that the dire need for a messenger is now rather than say 150 years back?
The fact that the Baha'i faith came 150 years ago, at the cusp of the changes in the world, should support that idea. He needn't come after. Besides, being picky about that is sort of picky, don't you think? Where do you draw the line between OLD civilization, and NEW civilization, if you were to draw a line somewhere in the last 200 years.

#6. since i do not believe in god, including allah, i have no sides to take based on prejudice except that which is innate to me.
Just to clarify that we're on the same page, Allah = God. Whenever you hear a muslim say "Allah", they are referring to "God".

hmmm

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:25 am
by nameless
<<--money ... how is it defined in Islam ... Baha'u'llah allows for interest on silver & gold ... no offense to taken as to onepence/twopence ... if you could point me in the direction of the twopence group it would be appreciated .... a person of oneness,dh-->>

#1. money doesnt impress me and islam doesnt interest me.

#2. about bahaism i know little and am here basically to know, and to ask about that (which) i know.

#3. excuse my curiosity, but what is implied by 'person of oneness'?

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:33 am
by nameless
<<--The fact that the Baha'i faith came 150 years ago, at the cusp of the changes in the world, should support that idea. He needn't come after. Besides, being picky about that is sort of picky, don't you think? Where do you draw the line between OLD civilization, and NEW civilization, if you were to draw a line somewhere in the last 200 years. -->>

1. That 150 years ago was a reforming period over the last 1400 years is something u will have to demonstrate. why limit drawing the line to the last 200 years? what drives ur understanding that 150 years ago the message of muhammad came into need of being updated.

<<--Just to clarify that we're on the same page, Allah = God. Whenever you hear a muslim say "Allah", they are referring to "God".-->>

2. u are a muslim. for u allah = god. i get that much.

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:26 am
by Hossein
dear nameless hi
first of all I am sorry for my bad english.
But I will try to shortly explain some of my understanding of the bahai faith regarding to your question(s).

By Bahaullahs revelation many laws (here Islams) has been changed, I will mention 2 of them e.g.:

- The rights of women in bahai faith (rights of woman in Islam is not acceptable for todays women).
- The rights of non bahais (you know which rights have a non moslem in a moslem state/country)

Islams laws are not just based on The Holy Quran, it is also based on Hadith, and then there is Fegh, shariyyah and so on, + each mullah has his own definition/explanation of Quran, hadith and so on.

Each law can belongs to one of these five categories:

1- Permitted (Mubah)

2- Recommended (Mustahab)

3- Disapproved but not unlawful (Makruh)

4- Forbidden (Muharam)

5- Obligatory (Wajib)

I think, know we can start to talk about "progressive revelations":

RELIGION IS PROGRESSIVE

Religion is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive. If it be without motion and non-progressive it is without the divine life; it is dead. The divine institutes are continuously active and evolutionary; therefore the revelation of them must be progressive and continuous. All things are subject to re-formation. This is a century of life and renewal. Sciences and arts, industry and invention have been reformed. Law and ethics have been reconstituted, reorganized. The world of thought has been regenerated. Sciences of former ages and philosophies of the past are useless today. Present exigencies demand new methods of solution; world problems are without precedent. Old ideas and modes of thought are fast becoming  225  obsolete. Ancient laws and archaic ethical systems will not meet the requirements of modern conditions, for this is clearly the century of a new life, the century of the revelation of the reality and therefore the greatest of all centuries. Consider how the scientific developments of fifty years have surpassed and eclipsed the knowledge and achievements of all the former ages combined. Would the announcements and theories of ancient astronomers explain our present knowledge of the sun-worlds and planetary systems?...

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 224)


Have a nice time
hossein

hmmm

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:35 pm
by nameless
<<--dear nameless hi
first of all I am sorry for my bad english.-->>

#1. hi! dear and sorry dont go together, so make up ur mind which 1 u want to use.

<<--The rights of women in bahai faith (rights of woman in Islam is not acceptable for todays women).-->>

#2. could u elaborate how the rules were updated so that they benefit today's women. again, what is it that a woman has today which her kind did not have 150 or 1400 years back. in other words, what makes a woman today's woman or yesterday's woman.

<<--- The rights of non bahais (you know which rights have a non moslem in a moslem state/country)

Islams laws are not just based on The Holy Quran, it is also based on Hadith, and then there is Fegh, shariyyah and so on, + each mullah has his own definition/explanation of Quran, hadith and so on. -->

#3. if laws derived from hadith and fegh and sharriyah and mullah go against the principles of quran, then its the understanding of the masses and not quran that needs to be updated.


#4. what i am asking is which topics did bahaullah address which were not addressed by quran, or which were better addressed by bahaullah, and how bahaullah's tablets provide a better solution then muhammad's message.

#5. u too have a nice time.

Re: hmmm

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:10 pm
by Guest
nameless wrote:<<--dear nameless hi
first of all I am sorry for my bad english.-->>

#1. hi! dear and sorry dont go together, so make up ur mind which 1 u want to use.

<<--The rights of women in bahai faith (rights of woman in Islam is not acceptable for todays women).-->>

#2. could u elaborate how the rules were updated so that they benefit today's women. again, what is it that a woman has today which her kind did not have 150 or 1400 years back. in other words, what makes a woman today's woman or yesterday's woman.

<<--- The rights of non bahais (you know which rights have a non moslem in a moslem state/country)

Islams laws are not just based on The Holy Quran, it is also based on Hadith, and then there is Fegh, shariyyah and so on, + each mullah has his own definition/explanation of Quran, hadith and so on. -->

#3. if laws derived from hadith and fegh and sharriyah and mullah go against the principles of quran, then its the understanding of the masses and not quran that needs to be updated.


#4. what i am asking is which topics did bahaullah address which were not addressed by quran, or which were better addressed by bahaullah, and how bahaullah's tablets provide a better solution then muhammad's message.

#5. u too have a nice time.


lol .... I appreciate your attempts at seeking knowledge, however I have come to the conclussion that one more enlightened and helpful than this writer is needed so I will now graciously bow out ... thank you for sharing your thoughts with me, i still would be interestened in learning about twopence, so perhaps some other time, you can always google "onepence" and perhaps we might find something else of interest ... a person of oneness, Dean Hedges

ahan

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:34 pm
by nameless
<<--lol .... I appreciate your attempts at seeking knowledge, however I have come to the conclussion that one more enlightened and helpful than this writer is needed so I will now graciously bow out ... -->>

#1. everything is a lesson until death. to know that there is something to learn, and to endeavour to seek it is the quest till death. so u definitely are more enlightened than u probably give urself credit for.

<<--thank you for sharing your thoughts with me,-->>

#2. thank u for allowing me to

<<-- i still would be interestened in learning about twopence, so perhaps some other time,-->>

#3. maybe someday i will talk about that. but knowing my great history with 'god', rest assured that 'someday' will never dawn.

<<-- you can always google "onepence" and perhaps we might find something else of interest ... a person of oneness, Dean Hedges-->>

#4. like i always say, 'google and u shall find.' the only 'onepence' i know right now is u and i sure as hell hope to 'god' u aint got nothing to do with ann y '2 penny' group. :-S

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:32 am
by Hossein
<<-- #1. hi! dear and sorry dont go together, so make up ur mind which 1 u want to use. -->>
I will use Hi

<<-- #2. could u elaborate how the rules were updated so that they benefit today's women. again, what is it that a woman has today which her kind did not have 150 or 1400 years back. in other words, what makes a woman today's woman or yesterday's woman.

#3. if laws derived from hadith and fegh and sharriyah and mullah go against the principles of quran, then its the understanding of the masses and not quran that needs to be updated.

#4. what i am asking is which topics did bahaullah address which were not addressed by quran, or which were better addressed by bahaullah, and how bahaullah's tablets provide a better solution then muhammad's message.
-- >>

Here is one from The holy Quran and the other one is from Bukhari (Hadith):


But those whose perverseness ye fear, admonish them and remove them into bedchambers and beat them; but if they submit to you, then do not seek a way against them; verily, God is high and great.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 4 - Women)

Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer.Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion
than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our
intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

Bahá'u'lláh has change these law(s).

<<-- #5. u too have a nice time. -->>

Thank you, have a nice time

Hossein

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:02 am
by Hossein
I will also add some lines about the non moslem rights in the moslem country.

"Human Rights in Muslim Understanding
By Dr. Christine Schirrmacher

When Christians are persecuted for their faith in Muslim countries, or when Muslims convert to Christianity and are threatened with the death penalty, the Western press accuses the Islamic state of human rights violations. At the same time, most Islamic states have ratified declarations such as the United Nations l948 General Declaration of Human Rights. How can they justify this contradiction?

In the last decades, various Islamic organisations have themselves formulated declarations of human rights. They have one basic difference to those of Western statements, however. Because that they give priority to the Koran and to the Shari'a (Islamic law), human rights can only be guaranteed in these countries under the conditions imposed by these two authorities and their regulations. Article 24 of the l990 Cairo Declaration of Human Rights, for example, states that "All rights and freedoms mentioned in this statement are subject to the Islamic Shari'a," and Article 25 adds, "The Islamic Shari'a is the only source for the interpretation or explanation of each individual article of this statement." This emphasizes the "historic role of the Islamic Umma, which was created by God as the best nation, which has brought humanity a universal and well-balanced civilisation, in which harmony between life here on earth and the hereafter exists, and in which knowledge accompanies faith".

What does the priority of the Koran and the Shari'a mean for human rights iscussions? These two authorities insure that in Islamic states, human rights only exist within the limitation set by the religious values of Islamic revelation and are guaranteed only within the framework determined by the Koran and Islamic law..."


One of the Baha'i principles is: The Oneness of Mankind
Baha'u'llah siad:
"Ye are all leaves of one tree and the fruits of one branch."

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:29 am
by Guest
Hossein wrote:...

What does the priority of the Koran and the Shari'a mean for human rights iscussions? These two authorities insure that in Islamic states, human rights only exist within the limitation set by the religious values of Islamic revelation and are guaranteed only within the framework determined by the Koran and Islamic law..."


One of the Baha'i principles is: The Oneness of Mankind
Baha'u'llah siad:
"Ye are all leaves of one tree and the fruits of one branch."


yes ... "the religious values of Islamic revelation and are guaranteed only within the framework determined by the Koran and Islamic law" ...

scares the heck out of me ... the new Iraq got religous "freedom" but only as defined by Shari'a law ... couple this with personal thoughts about the "lesser peace" and well ... uh ... very very scary ... but what is so way cool about Baha'i Faith is the teaching about not to prefer your own will over another ... way way cool ...

... easy to see how it would take thousands of years of various apostles of Baha'u'llah to gentle guide the masses to The Oneness of Mankind ...
.... .... thousands & thousands of years perhaps because of the thousands & thousands and dare I say billions of enitities that are a part of The Oneness of Mankind ... a very deep and vast challenge to be a steadfast follower of Baha'u'llah ... every day a new challenge, every hour a new calamity, every minute an oppurtunity to be triumphant, every second a chance to be engaged within His Rememberance,

oneness
dh

hmmm

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:41 pm
by nameless
<<--I will use Hi-->>

#1. hmmm

<<--But those whose perverseness ye fear, admonish them and remove them into bedchambers and beat them; but if they submit to you, then do not seek a way against them; verily, God is high and great.-->>

#2. that verse is under scrutiny of late. if u want us to talk about that a bit more u may ask me to, but i think as of now i will get down to something else.

#3. i believe bahais believe quran itself is also the word of god. in that case, if u go by the current translations and understanding of that verese, then 1400 years ago god itself allowed wife-beating. then do tell me, how the 'infinitely loving and merciful god' waited for some 1200 odd years before it decided that women should now be spared the beating.

#4. i wont go into hadith thing because i believe whatever does not conform to the primary text, in this case, quran, should be rejected, rather than trying to twist the quran to justify the hadith.

#5. the quran is not discriminatory and against the non-muslims. it is the hadith and shariah of those with vested interests that brings about discord. so like i said earlier, rather than the quran, it is its understanding that needs correction.

<<--.... thousands & thousands of years perhaps because of the thousands & thousands and dare I say billions of enitities that are a part of The Oneness of Mankind-->>

#6. bahaullah has ruled out any new manifestation for the next 1000 years atleast. but thousands and thousands, well lets see.

#7. again, bahais believe in earlier scriptures (in their existing forms), including the quran. also, they believe that through bahaullah god then decreed unity for all mankind and reverence to all scriptures. but it was this very god who set the quran against the earlier revelations saying they were corrupted. and 1200 years later he tells humans to unite them all. a fine 'god' there be.

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:23 am
by Hossein
Hi
#2. that verse is under scrutiny of late. if u want us to talk about...

You asked which rules has been changed and I wrote for you 2 of these rules. There is no need for me to talk about this vers (surah Women) and that hadith is also parallel with The Holy Quran.

#3. i believe bahais believe quran itself is also the...

Thats why I wrote for you about "RELIGION IS PROGRESSIVE". when you are 7 years old, you start to go to school and you start in first grade, after some month you learn alphabet and starting to make sentences and so on, Nobody teach you how to solve a complex mathematic equation.
Or another example can be how you feed a baby, you can not give baby Kebab to eat. Baby can not digest this kind of food, you should wait until baby grow up.
By these I mean my teacher in first grade was a good teacher but now I grow up, learn a lot and my needs is/are different, also the baby is grow up and so on.
Humanity has also different needs in different time, and time is changed and thats why Abdu'l-Baha said: "... without motion and non-progressive it is without the divine life; it is dead..."

#4. i wont go into hadith thing because i believe whatever does...

That is your idea/believe, but muslim believe in them and live with them in many years.

#5. the quran is not discriminatory and against the non-muslims...

One of the vers in The Holy Quran is:

But when the sacred months are passed away, kill the idolaters wherever ye may find them; and take them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in every place of observation; but if they repent, and are steadfast in prayer, and give alms, then let them go their way; verily, God is forgiving and merciful.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 9 - Repentance or Immunity)

#6...

?

#7... but it was this very god who set the quran against the earlier revelations saying ...

I could not understand what do you mean?

when we talke about the rules, it is a must to define what do we mean by rules? some rules which are Spritually, they never have been changed as gambling, stilling, prayer and so on, none of the massanger of God had said gambling or stilling, yes, sure, do that.
But some rules as Womens right, non believers right, slavery, usury and so on is changed each time.

We as a Baha'i belive in that Muhammad, jesus, moses... all have been massangers of God and their rules and books are Holy. And by Bahá'u'lláhs words we can better understand Quran, Bible... and By his holy words, we can/must make a new era.

Have a nice time
Hossein

in that case...

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:37 pm
by nameless
<<--You asked which rules has been changed and I wrote for you 2 of these rules. There is no need for me to talk about this vers (surah Women) and that hadith is also parallel with The Holy Quran.-->>

#1. yes, but ur understanding of the verse is that it allows for wife-beating, but maybe thats not what the verse does imply. in any case, fair enough on ur part.

<<--Thats why I wrote for you about "RELIGION IS PROGRESSIVE". when you are 7 years old, you start to go to school and you start in first grade, after some month you learn alphabet and starting to make sentences and so on, Nobody teach you how to solve a complex mathematic equation.
Or another example can be how you feed a baby, you can not give baby Kebab to eat. Baby can not digest this kind of food, you should wait until baby grow up.
By these I mean my teacher in first grade was a good teacher but now I grow up, learn a lot and my needs is/are different, also the baby is grow up and so on.
Humanity has also different needs in different time, and time is changed and thats why Abdu'l-Baha said: "... without motion and non-progressive it is without the divine life; it is dead..."-->>

#2. so perchance u be implying that till 150 years ago god deemed women had not progressed enough and were fit for being beaten. or that till 150 years ago god deemed that time's need is wife-beating, but thence forth brought forth a new decree.

<<--That is your idea/believe, but muslim believe in them and live with them in many years.-->>

#3. even if u go into hadith u will have plenty of 'different' hadith of different sects. moreso, the hadith of bukhari is not recognised by shia islam, from which bahaism progressed.

<<--One of the vers in The Holy Quran is:

But when the sacred months are passed away, kill the idolaters wherever ye may find them; and take them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in every place of observation; but if they repent, and are steadfast in prayer, and give alms, then let them go their way; verily, God is forgiving and merciful.
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 9 - Repentance or Immunity)-->>

#4. i have talked to many muslims, both shias and sunnis about this, and the popular view is that that verse held true for a particular set of people who had been most vehement in persecution of muhammad and his followers, and who had always been hostile towards and at war with the muslim minority. puya/ali's commentary maybe referred to get a shia view of this verse.

<<--?-->>

#5. never mind.

<<--I could not understand what do you mean?-->>

#6. the very god who told bahaullah that humanity should set aside religious differences and unite, itself said in quran that the christians and jews and others are in error and that they have corrupted the earlier scriptures of god. so if u believe quran was sent by god u have to believe god set different religions against 1 another in its (god's) name.

<<--when we talke about the rules, it is a must to define what do we mean by rules? some rules which are Spritually, they never have been changed as gambling, stilling, prayer and so on, none of the massanger of God had said gambling or stilling, yes, sure, do that.
But some rules as Womens right, non believers right, slavery, usury and so on is changed each time. -->>

#7. so is it that whether or not to beat women and so changes with time.

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:03 pm
by Baha'i Warrior
Let's get one thing straight. During Muhammad's time, everyone was wild. There were no prisons, police, etc. The men were wild, uneducated, as were the women. The men were more of a threat, so that is why the one's that attacked the Muslims needed to be killed.

Everyone was uneducated and there were many slaves that were in fact men that had no rights, and the women themselves could harm the male slaves and get away with it. No one really had "rights." Sure, the women were beaten, but the men were killed. I'd rather be beaten than killed.

So it's obvious the equality of men and women is a concept that would not have been understood at the time, and there was no reason to bring it up. Everyone was in poverty, uneducated, unequal and in a bad state! We understand it very well today, times have changed since 1,000 years ago, but don't think that back then people would have had an easy time with it. Many of the early Baha'i men even had a problem with it for a while (those still growing spiritually), so then how much more back then? At least at this time an such an adjustment is possible.

So now that we have human rights, now that we are living with each other, the principle of equality of all people (sexes, races) is of the utmost importance if world unity is to be achieved. At Muhammad's time, black and white, or chinese, etc., were not living together.

This is what Baha'is mean of progressive revelation. We need newer, updated social teachings for this age. If a religion does not have such teachings, and even more if there is no designated supreme body that they can look up to to interpret those teachings, if needed, then all they can do is "interpret" what their religion has to say about certain issues like equality of women, so that is where we start getting problems.

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:26 am
by Guest
Hi

I wrote some verses of Quran and some Hadith (Bukhari) which are facts and moslem (both shi'a and Sunni) had lived/lives with them and believe in them.
Bukhari's books studies also by shi'a and most of them has shown their accept. Ofcourse they can not be agree about the all which bukhari wrote about, thats why we have 72 sect (as a persian poet said?!) in islam.
Here is a discussion between one Iranian Atheist and ayat'u'llah Montazery (shi'a). Most of the facts that the Atheist uses is from Bukhari and you can not find that montazery complained about that. You can find it on the net (it is in farsi, may be somebody can translate it for you. i could noy find anything in english).

We should also remember that in the time of Muhammad some arabs tribes killed their daughters and after they accept Islam, they treat their daughter by Islams laws, so women got more rights.

yes, this is about the time. I will give you an example: If you are allowed to drive in the town 60 km/h, the police can stop you, if you drive faster than that, Now the parlemant vote for 50 km/h from today, so police can not stop you because yesterday you drive 60. God make the rules and decide the time of changes, not a second more or less.

Have a nice time
Hossein

well

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:56 am
by nameless
<<--Let's get one thing straight. During Muhammad's time, everyone was wild. There were no prisons, police, etc. The men were wild, uneducated, as were the women. The men were more of a threat, so that is why the one's that attacked the Muslims needed to be killed.-->>

#1. i think u are talking about the arabian region here. as far as judiciary concept goes, they outdate muhammad and his quran.-->>

<<--Everyone was uneducated and there were many slaves that were in fact men that had no rights, and the women themselves could harm the male slaves and get away with it. No one really had "rights." Sure, the women were beaten, but the men were killed. I'd rather be beaten than killed.-->>

#2. the women-beating v are talking about here is wife-beating.

<<--So it's obvious the equality of men and women is a concept that would not have been understood at the time, and there was no reason to bring it up.-->>

#3. what better reason to bring up the concept of equality then its absence. again, what is equality of women and men as stated by bahaullah. i could not find much information about this. even quran talks about women having rights similar to men.

<<--Everyone was in poverty, uneducated, unequal and in a bad state!-->>

#4. how can everybody be in poverty and unequal, unless u are talking about racial discrimination or maybe tribal.

<<--We understand it very well today, times have changed since 1,000 years ago, but don't think that back then people would have had an easy time with it. Many of the early Baha'i men even had a problem with it for a while (those still growing spiritually), so then how much more back then? At least at this time an such an adjustment is possible.-->>

#5. even back then, v have quran stating and reminding humans they have all been created from the same substance. there is i guess, a tradition of muhammad that says all humans are equal irrespective of their cast, color and creed, save for piety. then shias have traditions that show that ali used to wear clothes which were rough and used to give his helper finer clothing.

<<--So now that we have human rights, now that we are living with each other, the principle of equality of all people (sexes, races) is of the utmost importance if world unity is to be achieved. At Muhammad's time, black and white, or chinese, etc., were not living together.-->>

#6. v can endlessly go about this, but whilst v are rooted to our own beliefs, v will be making little head way. christ is a manifestation of humanity at its zenith. what about america, which is a laregely christian country. and yet bahaism's literature singles out america for lavishing praise. was it that the manifestation of god was unaware of how the native americans were being brutally exterminated by the christian ancestors of the 'modern' america. 'modern' america's founding history is stained with the blood of the native dwellers. it is not anybody's fancy but truth recorded in the anals of history. anybody wishing to may try finding about it. yet bahaism literature is supremely impressed with america. refer to abdul baha's 'foundation of unity'.


<<--This is what Baha'is mean of progressive revelation. We need newer, updated social teachings for this age. If a religion does not have such teachings, and even more if there is no designated supreme body that they can look up to to interpret those teachings, if needed, then all they can do is "interpret" what their religion has to say about certain issues like equality of women, so that is where we start getting problems.-->>

#7/ all religions teach about equality. even quran says that there be no compulsion in religion and stuff like do not fight unless u be fought with and even then do not be indiscriminate in retaliation and that god loveth not the transgressors. the problem is implementation. same is the case with bahaism. there is an advice but not a proper elaboration. christ said when u are slapped on 1 cheek offer the other. its not as if peace and equality are new concepts.

#7. other muslims like sunnis do have their designated supreme bodies which uses means like traditions and consensus to resolve issues previously untouched. as for shias, they have their supreme religious authorities like ayatullahs who are invested with the authority to take decisions. i dont think bahaism has any mechanism for resolving newer issues which is better equipped then what shiaism has.

hmmm

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:29 am
by nameless
<<--Hi-->>

#1. hi

<<--I wrote some verses of Quran and some Hadith (Bukhari) which are facts and moslem (both shi'a and Sunni) had lived/lives with them and believe in them.
Bukhari's books studies also by shi'a and most of them has shown their accept. Ofcourse they can not be agree about the all which bukhari wrote about, thats why we have 72 sect (as a persian poet said?!) in islam.
Here is a discussion between one Iranian Atheist and ayat'u'llah Montazery (shi'a). Most of the facts that the Atheist uses is from Bukhari and you can not find that montazery complained about that. You can find it on the net (it is in farsi, may be somebody can translate it for you. i could noy find anything in english).-->>

#2. that is the most surprising. i would like to hear some shias' views on bukhari. as far as i know unless a hadith of bukhari is also found in their own literature, shias do not entertain bukhari. else entire shiaism will go for a toss.

<<--We should also remember that in the time of Muhammad some arabs tribes killed their daughters and after they accept Islam, they treat their daughter by Islams laws, so women got more rights.-->>

#3. yes, that was the case with some. however i doubt that god's earlier revelations had anything to do with any such custom. so they were killing their daughters not in keeping with god's earlier laws, but their own evils.

<<--yes, this is about the time. I will give you an example: If you are allowed to drive in the town 60 km/h, the police can stop you, if you drive faster than that, Now the parlemant vote for 50 km/h from today, so police can not stop you because yesterday you drive 60. God make the rules and decide the time of changes, not a second more or less.-->

#4. parliament is not omniscient, it tries to draft laws as and when it gets a better understanding of things. if it does draft new bills for the sake of being whimsical its a flaw and not virtue. god on the other hand would not like to be thought of as whimsical, and is supposed to be all-knowing. so it is highly unimaginable that god initially thought wife-beating would be fine, and later felt it had stains of unequality.

#5. so unless u say that till 150 years ago god created women who were immune to beatings (phsyical, mental, emotional et all) in marriage, and that only recently it started creating women who are delicate and sensitive about it, u are holding god as being unjust to women till 150 years ago.

<<--Have a nice time-->>

#6. have a nice time u too.

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:37 am
by Guest
Hi
I think, it is better to read when some moslem talking about "Beating":
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=588

#4 and #5

Understanding of religious laws is more than that. Now if we talked about how moslem judge a thief in islamic law compare with Baha'i laws, suddenly God make justice or what do you mean?

have a nice time
Hossein

yups

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:35 pm
by nameless
<<--Hi
I think, it is better to read when some moslem talking about "Beating":
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=588-->>

#1. hi! whoso claims to be a muslim does not necessarily become a muslim and whoso readeth the quran does not necessarily understand it. since i am not muslim, u might feel i am talking out of my hat, but the fact is muslims do not necessarily follow quran. there are muslims who say no matter what u do u will go to paradise as long as u say their article of faith. so effectively if i proclaim 'there is not god but allah' then i can indulge in any sin, any sin, and i will still go to heaven. muslims can over-simplify their faith, but that wont change the truth which is embodied in quran.

<<--Understanding of religious laws is more than that. Now if we talked about how moslem judge a thief in islamic law compare with Baha'i laws, suddenly God make justice or what do you mean?-->>

#2. i think u are referring to quranic verse about cutting off the hands off the thieves. do u think god ordained cutting off hands. in that case do u still think god is of infinite mercy, because later it thought the punishment was too harsh.

#3. the bahai punishment is exile, then prison and then marking on the forehead. what after that, if the thief steals a fourth time. what do in that case.

<<--have a nice time-->>

#4. have a nice time u too.
Hossein

Re: a *new* religion

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:47 pm
by Kaiser Wilhelm VIII
nameless wrote:#1. i am really ANGRY at the fact that those in minority are deemed weak and corrupt and hence always persecuted by others, very very often in the name of god.


In the Baha'i Faith minorities are to be protected and their interests upheld.


nameless wrote:#2. anyway. i have a read a bit about bahaism and from what i read from their own sources (read websites), i get that they believe it to be a natural progression from islam or what was revealed to muhammad. muslims however, on the other hand are too keen to label them as having nothing to do with islam. notwithstanding these points, i want to ask a few things direct to the bahais.

#3. 1 of the reasons as to 'why bahaism?' is that god updates the rules and regulation with time. as such, the rules brought by muhammad have met their expiry date and the rules of bahaullah have to be adopted for an up-to-date living.

#4. but considering the fact that bahaullah lived around 150 years back, and the most notable changes in human progress has taken place in probably the last 50 or so years, how do u as a bahai reconcile the fact that the dire need for a messenger is now rather than say 150 years back?


Yes and no. You can argue that the 'knee' of the advancement curve in human hisotry was around the time of the Bab/Baha'u'llah. About 160 years ago. For example, the first telegraph was sent on...wait for it...May 24 1844. This is a significant day - for other reasons- for Baha'is btw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_F._B._Morse
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/today/may24.html

Baha'is would argue - as a matter of Faith - that this was in fact due to the power of the revelation of Baha'u'llah. He said that all the atoms in existence where renewed and changed with His coming. As for the need for his appearance, you have to understand what Iran was like back then. The decadence and corruption of the Persian government, etc was without peer. The people had clearly lost their way and even the clergy only played lip service to the teachings of the Quran.


nameless wrote:#5. also, which laws of quran need updating, that the laws of bahaullah had to be revealed. i mean most of the quranic laws are universal and also not at all restricted by time. eg: lower ur gaze, maintain ur chastity, feed and help the needy, be moderate and sparing etc etc.


There are two kinds of Holy laws. Those that are universal: love your neighbour, don't steal, don't lie, etc. And then there are those that are for the regulation of everyday life and they do change along with the exigencies of the times. For example, Baha'u'llah removed the law for changing interest and he removed the law which says that women are lower than men (Baha'is believe in the equality of the sexes). There are many more. Probably the most important is the abolition of ecclesiastical rank. In contrast to Islam, every person is free to have a personal relationship with God with no other person acting as an intermediary.

nameless wrote:#6. since i do not believe in god, including allah, i have no sides to take based on prejudice except that which is innate to me.


You are free to believe what you wish. Baha'u'llah instructed that each person is endowed with intelligence and the responsability to seek out the truth. Baha'is call it 'independant investigation of truth'. We do not attempt to foist our beliefs on others and we acknowledge that each person must follow their own journey and come to their own independant conclusion. What Baha'is are AGAINST is the mindless obedience to authority and tradition - iow being a Baha'i *just* because you were born into a Baha'i family.

well

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:11 pm
by nameless
<<--In the Baha'i Faith minorities are to be protected and their interests upheld.-->>

#1. i dont think any faith ordains that the minorities are to be persecuted. its just 'human' tendency.

<<Yes and no. You can argue that the 'knee' of the advancement curve in human hisotry was around the time of the Bab/Baha'u'llah. About 160 years ago. For example, the first telegraph was sent on...wait for it...May 24 1844. This is a significant day - for other reasons- for Baha'is btw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_F._B._Morse
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/today/may24.html

Baha'is would argue - as a matter of Faith - that this was in fact due to the power of the revelation of Baha'u'llah. He said that all the atoms in existence where renewed and changed with His coming.-->>

#2. like u said, the first telegraph was sent in 1844 (and i am taking ur word for it). bahaullah staked his claim as manifestation of god in 1863(?) so i was wondering which revelation of bahaullah are u talking about here. again, he was born in 1917. so its 27 years after his birth and some 19 before his claim that the first telegraph was sent. i dont think it would be too illogical to not rule this out as a mere coincidence.

<<-- As for the need for his appearance, you have to understand what Iran was like back then. The decadence and corruption of the Persian government, etc was without peer. The people had clearly lost their way and even the clergy only played lip service to the teachings of the Quran.-->>

#3. well, i would be most surely interested in reading about the state persian government was then. as for non-adherence to the teachings of quran, it can be found from the very times when muhammad went around preaching it.

<<--There are two kinds of Holy laws. Those that are universal: love your neighbour, don't steal, don't lie, etc. And then there are those that are for the regulation of everyday life and they do change along with the exigencies of the times. For example, Baha'u'llah removed the law for changing interest and he removed the law which says that women are lower than men (Baha'is believe in the equality of the sexes). There are many more. Probably the most important is the abolition of ecclesiastical rank. In contrast to Islam, every person is free to have a personal relationship with God with no other person acting as an intermediary. -->>

#4. i would like some more information about the law of changing interest which bahaullah removed. again, i would most certainly be interested in reading the law which says women are lower than men.

#5. again, i dont think the concept of intermediation is anywhere encouraged in quran, even though muslims are nigh upon claiming it is. a particular verse of quran says that god is indeed close to its slave and when a suppliant crieth unto its lord, it answers. notwithstanding veracity of god's claim, v can see that god talks about a direct relationship with its slaves.

<<--You are free to believe what you wish. Baha'u'llah instructed that each person is endowed with intelligence and the responsability to seek out the truth. Baha'is call it 'independant investigation of truth'. We do not attempt to foist our beliefs on others and we acknowledge that each person must follow their own journey and come to their own independant conclusion. What Baha'is are AGAINST is the mindless obedience to authority and tradition - iow being a Baha'i *just* because you were born into a Baha'i family.-->>

#6. can i take that as ur faith being based on ur own investigation and not birth or blind obedience to traditions. bahaullah says that the pain that has been inflicted upon him is such that has not been upon any other. i would like a bit more elaboration on the pain that bahaullah went through, the likeness of which has not been borne by any other soul.

#7. bahaullah says that even though his body and bones were battered, his soul was gladness. yet v read elsewhere about bahaullah saying how he has sighed at the unbearable pain inflicted on him by his oppressors, and yet the rulers of lands have not come to his aid.

#8. i do not remember moses or christ or muhammad lamenting to rulers of different lands about the persecution they were facing, and promising them kingdom of god in return of helping their cause against their oppressors.

#9. have non-jains here read about the tirthankara known as the mahavira. for those who claim that peace and equality could not be understood till the time of bahaullah, his teachings are surely way ahead of his time.

Re: well

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:18 pm
by Baha'i Warrior
nameless wrote:#7/ all religions teach about equality. even quran says that there be no compulsion in religion and stuff like do not fight unless u be fought with and even then do not be indiscriminate in retaliation and that god loveth not the transgressors. the problem is implementation. same is the case with bahaism. there is an advice but not a proper elaboration. christ said when u are slapped on 1 cheek offer the other. its not as if peace and equality are new concepts.


Exactly. But how many are promoting equality? If the Bible speaks of equality, then why did slavery happen? Why were all the slave masters Christian? If the Koran teaches of equality, why do so many of them beat their women? Why does even a "neutral" country like Turkey still have many "honor killings," and many people who support it? Why don't we see people like the Grand Mufti issues fatwas saying "men and women are equal, so treat your daughters with respect" instead of issuing fatwas saying pious muslims must have their daughters circumcised?

All religions speak of equality because they all come from one same Source. But the Baha'i Faith is the only independent world religion that promotes equality. In fact, Baha'is say that this is an obstacle to world peace, and so places equality at the top of its list. No other religions do this, not to the extent that the Baha'i Faith does.

Go to any Muslim web site. What does it mean to be a Muslim? According to Muhammad.net,

1. Belief in One God
2. belief in all of God's messengers
3. belief in all the books sent down to prophets of God. These books include Torah and Gospel. Only the Holy Quran exists in its original form, however.
4. belief in the existence of angels
5. belief in the Day of Judgement, Life after Death, Heaven and Hell.
6. belief in the Divine Decree or Predestination, its good and its bad.

(seems like something's missing....)



now compare this to some major Baha'i principles (according to bahai.us):

• Oneness of humanity
• Oneness of religion
• Religion must be the
cause of unity
• Religion must be
harmonious with science
and reason
• Independent investigation
of truth
• Equality between men and
women
• The abolition of all forms
of prejudice
• Universal peace
• Universal education
• A universal auxiliary
language
• Spiritual solutions for
economic problems
• An international tribunal


some principles like harmony of science you don't even see taught in past dispensations.


so among the values the Baha'is place at the top of their agenda is equality of the races and sexes.

hmmm

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:43 pm
by nameless
#1. from bahai.org

'How do I become a Bahá’í?
A person becomes a Bahá’í by recognizing Bahá’u’lláh as the Messenger of God for this age and accepting to follow His laws and teachings and the administrative institutions He established for the unification of humankind. People enroll in a Bahá’í community by signifying such belief and commitment, orally or in writing, to the responsible Bahá'í institution.'

#2. even muslims and christians can say they are unifying the humankind under the message of their founders provided they are attested to (by entire humankind).

#3. the very fact that u have to recognise bahaullah is divisive because there will be some/many who will hold similar views but not willing to attest to his being a manifestation of god. refer to the teachings of the mahavira in this regard.

Re: hmmm

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:53 pm
by Baha'i Warrior
nameless wrote:#1. from bahai.org

'How do I become a Bahá’í?
A person becomes a Bahá’í by recognizing Bahá’u’lláh as the Messenger of God for this age and accepting to follow His laws and teachings and the administrative institutions He established for the unification of humankind. People enroll in a Bahá’í community by signifying such belief and commitment, orally or in writing, to the responsible Bahá'í institution.'


nameless wrote:#2. even muslims and christians can say they are unifying the humankind under the message of their founders provided they are attested to (by entire humankind).



As some do, but they dont practice it. There is no designated authoritative body to which they can look up to. They have broken up into many sects, and so all Muslims certainly will not believe the exact same thing. This is a problem the Faith has resolved, and we don't have that risk of breaking up into sects and forming our own beliefs.


nameless wrote:#3. the very fact that u have to recognise bahaullah is divisive because there will be some/many who will hold similar views but not willing to attest to his being a manifestation of god. refer to the teachings of the mahavira in this regard.


That is their problem. They have free will.

Re: well

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:44 pm
by Kaiser Wilhelm VIII
nameless wrote:<<--In the Baha'i Faith minorities are to be protected and their interests upheld.-->>

#1. i dont think any faith ordains that the minorities are to be persecuted. its just 'human' tendency.


Yes, but an explicit injunction to protect minorities goes much further.

nameless wrote:#2. like u said, the first telegraph was sent in 1844 (and i am taking ur word for it). bahaullah staked his claim as manifestation of god in 1863(?) so i was wondering which revelation of bahaullah are u talking about here. again, he was born in 1917. so its 27 years after his birth and some 19 before his claim that the first telegraph was sent. i dont think it would be too illogical to not rule this out as a mere coincidence.


ok, wait a minute I think you're confusing some things here. First of all the Bab declared His mission on May 23rd 1844. This date is EXTREMELY important to Baha'is. The whole Baha'i calendar is based upon it. The Bab was the forerunner of the Baha'i Faith and everything He said and did was to prepare people for the appearance of Baha'u'llah. For example, He made it binding on Babis to answer correspondence as soon as possible because He didn't want possibly the One whom God will make manifest, to wait !! Think about it. To me that's simply astonishing. So when I say *everything* the Bab said and did, I mean everything!

Baha'u'llah was among the first believers in the Bab and He was a Babi. That is before He declared Himself as the Person who the Bab had foretold about. The Baha'i dispensation or revelation therefore is said to begin (technically) in the early hours of May 23rd 1844 in Shiraz, Iran. On the internet you can even find pictures of the very spot in the very room in which the event took place.

Don't take my word that the first telegraph was sent on May 24th 1844. Do your own research! You can easily verify it. And if you wish to rule it out as mere coincidence...that's fine with me. Really. As a Baha'i I see it differently but you are most welcome to your own opinion and understanding. I just brought up the event of the first telegraph as an example - nothing more - of the technological leaps that propelled mankind forward.


nameless wrote:#4. i would like some more information about the law of changing interest which bahaullah removed. again, i would most certainly be interested in reading the law which says women are lower than men.


There are many references in the Quran but the one that jumps to my mind right now is where the testimony of a woman to a judge is deemed to be 1/3 of a man's.

nameless wrote:#5. again, i dont think the concept of intermediation is anywhere encouraged in quran, even though muslims are nigh upon claiming it is. a particular verse of quran says that god is indeed close to its slave and when a suppliant crieth unto its lord, it answers. notwithstanding veracity of god's claim, v can see that god talks about a direct relationship with its slaves.


You are right. But stating that there's a direct relationship between man and God (ala Quran) is one thing, abolishing the institution of the clergy (as per Baha'u'llah) is quite another


nameless wrote:#6. can i take that as ur faith being based on ur own investigation and not birth or blind obedience to traditions. bahaullah says that the pain that has been inflicted upon him is such that has not been upon any other. i would like a bit more elaboration on the pain that bahaullah went through, the likeness of which has not been borne by any other soul.


I would suggest reading about his life. How he went from the lap of luxury - gardens, mansions, conversations with ministers, etc. to the worst dungeon and beatings and poisoning, etc.

nameless wrote:#7. bahaullah says that even though his body and bones were battered, his soul was gladness. yet v read elsewhere about bahaullah saying how he has sighed at the unbearable pain inflicted on him by his oppressors, and yet the rulers of lands have not come to his aid.


I wanted to mention this above when we spoke of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah but here is a good place too. My take on it is that there are two natures to every Prophet. He is obviously a man - a human, flesh and bone frame. And He is also a divine soul - a special spiritual rank, if you will. There are times when Baha'u'llah speaks about Himself and He is talking as a man and other times when He speaks and He is talking as a Manifestation and other times when He speaks as God Himself. It can be confusing at first. Especially to someone reading Baha'u'llah when He is speaking or channelling God and they think...wait a minute! Baha'u'llah isn't God! Well, no and yes. He's the instrument of God. And so like a ray of light being reflected on a pure mirror, can you say the sunshine isn't 'real' but is a 'reflection'? Both would be correct. Its the sun and its not.

So when we talk about the moment of declaration what is that? Its just a moment when the Prophet tells others about His station. And if you really think about it, it isn't *that* special. Why? Because what really matters is what/who He is. Not that others know or recognize Him. I mean, think about it, if no one recognized a Prophet, would that change anything about them? would they be any less? So its a bit of splitting hairs when we try to come up with a specific date to draw on the cronological history line. Which date matters? when they were born? when they matured into an adult? when they declared? when they wrote their mother book? when they were persecuted and/or killed? etc....

nameless wrote:#8. i do not remember moses or christ or muhammad lamenting to rulers of different lands about the persecution they were facing, and promising them kingdom of god in return of helping their cause against their oppressors.


Baha'u'llah didn't want riches or material possessions. If He wanted that, He could have just remained a Persian noble and not become a Babi nor claimed to be a Prophet. What He meant was that He wanted a champion to arise in His name.

nameless wrote:#9. have non-jains here read about the tirthankara known as the mahavira. for those who claim that peace and equality could not be understood till the time of bahaullah, his teachings are surely way ahead of his time.


no I haven't. I'll look into it. Sounds interesting.

Re: hmmm

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:47 pm
by Kaiser Wilhelm VIII
nameless wrote:#3. the very fact that u have to recognise bahaullah is divisive because there will be some/many who will hold similar views but not willing to attest to his being a manifestation of god. refer to the teachings of the mahavira in this regard.


It is only divisive if you don't really follow the teachings of the Baha'i Faith. If you do, then it means you love your fellow human being, you work to help him/her and you see yourself as the servant of the world. They may draw a circle to shut you out but you as a Baha'i draw a circle that draws them in.

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:12 am
by Hossein
Hi
nameless wrote:
#2. even muslims and christians can say they are unifying the humankind under the message of their founders provided they are attested to (by entire humankind).


They can never say that, It is too late after all that misrable they have done.
First of all Which kind of moslem can do that? They could not even unifying themselves, shi'a, sunni, vahabbi, ahmadiyeh and so on. Do you know how many people had been killed just because of the war between shi'a and sunni?
Do you know for example how many people are in the jail because of their believes in moslems country? (I do not mention how many people had been killed). Unfortunetly these are reality

I hope that one day they stand up and say it, but believe me it is not more than 14 days ago that one moslem president said something about Isreal, you know that.

Have a nice time
Hossein

umm

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:46 am
by nameless
<<--As some do, but they dont practice it. There is no designated authoritative body to which they can look up to. They have broken up into many sects, and so all Muslims certainly will not believe the exact same thing. This is a problem the Faith has resolved, and we don't have that risk of breaking up into sects and forming our own beliefs.-->>

#1. shias do have their marjahs/ayatullahs/imams whom they do follow. ofcourse its another thing that shias themselves have sects like ithna ashri and ismaili. but then before announcing himself as a manifestation of god, bahaullah himself was a shia who had deflected to babism.

<<--Yes, but an explicit injunction to protect minorities goes much further.-->>

#2. quran is replete with examples of how previous generations had deemed minority weak and oppressed them, how they boasted of their numbers, and how for them was an ungodly end. i think that serves as an injunction not to be of them.

<<--ok, wait a minute I think you're confusing some things here. First of all the Bab declared His mission on May 23rd 1844. This date is EXTREMELY important to Baha'is. The whole Baha'i calendar is based upon it. ....
......The Baha'i dispensation or revelation therefore is said to begin (technically) in the early hours of May 23rd 1844 in Shiraz, Iran. On the internet you can even find pictures of the very spot in the very room in which the event took place. -->>

#3. i think u talked about bahaullah's revelation and not bab's proclamation. as such it seems bab has a better right towards any credit for the first telegraph, rather than bahaullah.

<<--Don't take my word that the first telegraph was sent on May 24th 1844. Do your own research! You can easily verify it.-->>

#4. yeah, which is why i dont think there is much chance of getting any misinformation in this regard.

<<--There are many references in the Quran but the one that jumps to my mind right now is where the testimony of a woman to a judge is deemed to be 1/3 of a man's. -->>

#.5 that's of the things which i am planning to go over, hopefully.

#6. till then, since u believe quran is from god then how do u explain god's ruling on this matter.

#7. if bahaism is of equality between women and men, then why does it exempt women from some religious duties, an example: pilgrimage to mecca. since it exempts women and not men it quite follows that bahaism does recognise some inequality between women and men.

#8. bahaism proclaims loud that women should be included in matters of decision-making and that its women who will lead to world peace. oddly enough, the universal house of justice may not include women and all the nine members be males. comment.

<<--You are right. But stating that there's a direct relationship between man and God (ala Quran) is one thing, abolishing the institution of the clergy (as per Baha'u'llah) is quite another -->>

#9. on the contrary, bahaism has a universal house of justice the injunctions of which has to be obeyed under all circusstances. so ecclesiasticism alive and kicking in bahaism. comment.

<<--I would suggest reading about his life. How he went from the lap of luxury - gardens, mansions, conversations with ministers, etc. to the worst dungeon and beatings and poisoning, etc. -->>

#10. there are many who have done similar thing. vardhaman was the son of a king. so was siddhartha. i am asking about the elaborate sufferings of bahaullah, because i have read him say that his sufferings are unparalleled.

<< I wanted to mention this above when we spoke of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah but here is a good place too. My take on it is that there are two natures to every Prophet. He is obviously a man - a human, flesh and bone frame. ....
....when they were born? when they matured into an adult? when they declared? when they wrote their mother book? when they were persecuted and/or killed? etc.... >>

#11. i meant how can a soul be at bliss and yet be in agony.

<,Baha'u'llah didn't want riches or material possessions. If He wanted that, He could have just remained a Persian noble and not become a Babi nor claimed to be a Prophet. What He meant was that He wanted a champion to arise in His name.-->>

#12. surely. but it does seem he wasnt to happy with his sufferings in the prison and was eager that some ruler get him out of there.

<<--That is their problem. They have free will.-->>

<<--It is only divisive if you don't really follow the teachings of the Baha'i Faith. If you do, then it means you love your fellow human being, you work to help him/her and you see yourself as the servant of the world. They may draw a circle to shut you out but you as a Baha'i draw a circle that draws them in.-->>

#13. how about my following teachings of bahaism (or something similar) but not attesting to bahaullah. will god discriminate against me in this case.

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:24 am
by Hossein
nameless wrote:

#12. surely. but it does seem he wasnt to happy with his sufferings...


It is nice to remember how people treat muhammad (s) in the beggining of islam history. Muhammad and his few followers did not only suffer from persecution for thirteen years but the unbelievers even tried to kill Muhammad several times. On one occasion they attempted to kill him by dropping a large boulder, which could barely be lifted, on his head. Another time they tried to kill him by poisoning his food.

The number of his adherents increased gradually, but with the denunciation of paganism, the opposition also grew intenser on the part of those who were firmly attached to their ancestral beliefs. This opposition degenerated in the course of time into physical torture of the Prophet and of those who had embraced his religion. These were stretched on burning sands, cauterized with red hot iron and imprisoned with chains on their feet. Some of them died of the effects of torture, but none would renounce his religion. In despair, the Prophet Muhammad advised his companions to quit their native town and take refuge abroad, in Abyssinia, "where governs a just ruler, in whose realm nobody is oppressed" (Ibn Hisham). Dozens of Muslims profited by his advice, though not all. These secret flights led to further persecution of those who remained behind.

hi

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:37 am
by nameless
<<--They can never say that, It is too late after all that misrable they have done.
First of all Which kind of moslem can do that? They could not even unifying themselves, shi'a, sunni, vahabbi, ahmadiyeh and so on. Do you know how many people had been killed just because of the war between shi'a and sunni?-->>

#1. hi! just like whoso claims to be a bahai without following the teachings of bahaullah is not a bahai, likewise whoso claims to be a christian/muslim without following the message of bible/quran is only a pseudo-chrsitian/muslim.

<<--Do you know for example how many people are in the jail because of their believes in moslems country? (I do not mention how many people had been killed). Unfortunetly these are reality-->>

#2. yes, but quran says there be no compulsion in religion. so who does try to force a religion on others and insists it is god's way is rejecting quran and thus disqualified from being termed a muslim.

#3. have a nice time u too.

hmmm

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:46 am
by nameless
<<--It is nice to remember how people treat muhammad (s) in the beggining of islam history. Muhammad and his few followers did not only suffer from persecution for thirteen years but the unbelievers even tried to kill Muhammad several times. On one occasion they attempted to kill him by dropping a large boulder, which could barely be lifted, on his head. Another time they tried to kill him by poisoning his food.

The number of his adherents increased gradually, but with the denunciation of paganism, the opposition also grew intenser on the part of those who were firmly attached to their ancestral beliefs. This opposition degenerated in the course of time into physical torture of the Prophet and of those who had embraced his religion. These were stretched on burning sands, cauterized with red hot iron and imprisoned with chains on their feet. Some of them died of the effects of torture, but none would renounce his religion. In despair, the Prophet Muhammad advised his companions to quit their native town and take refuge abroad, in Abyssinia, "where governs a just ruler, in whose realm nobody is oppressed" (Ibn Hisham). Dozens of Muslims profited by his advice, though not all. These secret flights led to further persecution of those who remained behind.-->>

#1. exactly, and still muslims tried only to seek shelter where they could, rather than muhammad asking the romans or persians help against the people who persecuted him and his followers. he had faith in his god that someday they will be able to overcome their oppressors without taking aid of any ruler. unlike (him), bahaullah kept asking various nations to help him against his oppressors and promised them if they help him god will help them.

#2. now compare what u posted with what bahaullah suffered, taken from bahai-library, emphasis is my own.

'One of the Bab's imprisoned disciples was a man named Mirza Husayn Ali, the son of one of the most distinguished families in Persia. Because of his family Mirza was not executed with the Bab but was

[page 429]

imprisoned in Tehran.
In 1852, another of the Bab's followers attempted to assassinate the Shah of Iran, and this brought further persecution upon the group. Mirza Ali was exiled to Baghdad, and there he spent the next ten years of his life. During his imprisonment and exile it was revealed to Mirza that he was the one whom the Bab had foretold. In 1863, Mirza and the remaining Babis were exiled from Baghdad to Constantinople, and on the eve of their departure he revealed to the Babis that he was the one promised by the Bab. This revelation was made in Ridvan, near Baghdad, and today is commemorated annually by Bahá'ís, with a feast. Mirza assumed the name Bahaullah ("the glory of God"), and those Babis who accepted him and followed his teachings became known as Bahá'ís.

In the following years Bahaullah and the Bahá'ís were forced from one capital city in the Middle East to another. From Constantinople they went to Adrianople. Finally, they were banished to the Turkish prison city of Acca, in Palestine. At first Bahaullah and about eighty of his followers were incarcerated for two years in an army barracks, where they suffered from hunger and disease. After this period the group was transferred to other quarters, which were somewhat more comfortable. Eventually, more freedom was given to Bahaullah, but he spent the remainder of his life as a prisoner of the Turkish government in Acca. Although he was imprisoned during his years in Acca, Bahaullah was able to send out missionaries and receive guests and thus spread his teachings of unity and world peace. During this period he wrote many letters and books. One series of letters was sent to the pope and to the world heads of state, announcing his mission and calling for their help in furthering world peace. He wrote books such as the Kitab-i-Aqdas ("The Most Holy Book"), the Kitab-i-Iqan ("The Book of Certitudes"), and The Hidden Words. He died in Acca in 1892, at the age of 75.

so then

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:53 am
by nameless
#1. unless the above writing is unfaithful, and this is from abahai-library and not my own, it follows that all bahaullah suffered was exile, imprisonment, hunger and perhaps disease. he was even allowed to carry out his religious preaching from the jail. like the article mentions, even as bab was executed, bahaullah was spared. as such i dont see who bahaullah deemed that as more pain than any soul could have suffered.

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:13 am
by Hossein
Hi

nameless wrote:
#1...

You can not say that, Islam had build a great civilization, that cicilization was the result of following islamic laws and principles until because of some reason e. g. fundamentalist/fundamentalism began to grow, and in the end lost his so called power or what you will name it.
All and all because God had tell os by his massanger, coming of a new revelation as mentioned in The Holy Quran. And we need always a new revelation because our needs will change and we are good to forget thats why somebody should come to tell os again what we should/must do and what we should not/must not do.

#2...

Same answer.

Have a nice time
Hossein

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:23 am
by Hossein
nameless wrote:
imprisoned in Tehran...


In the years that followed, however, Ali played a vital role in the Muslim community. He was counted among the closest companions, a valiant warrior, and a wise and brave leader. In the murder plot, young clansmen intended to strike while Muhammad slept. When they learned of the plot, Muhammad escaped to Madinah while Ali slept in his empty bed.


Have a nice time
Hossein

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:34 am
by Hossein
nameless wrote:
#1. exactly, and still muslims tried...


That is your understanding. Baha'u'llah wants to show you and tell us there is no justice, it is not because he needs help. If he needs help, why He accepted to suffer so much when he was a son of one high respected minister of Iran.
he showed os in this way, none of those ruler are Just. And this was one the reason that each of these ruler one by one lost their throne and power.

The suffering of God massanger is one the reason of "True massanger".

Hossein

ahem

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:58 am
by nameless
#1. hi! first of all i would like to clarify that i have nothing against anybody's beliefs. the only reason i am blabbering so much and asking so many questions is to highlight those points which do not seem to make sense to my logic and investigation, something which bahaullah and other messengers of god have advised to carry out. also, i no less and i try to find more by reading, so my views today are not rigid and open to change if i find something hitherto unkown to me.

#2. i think i wont be participating any further in any dialogues, atleast for some time. for the same reason i wont be answering any pending replies because it would only lead to another post.

#3. finally lets hope v will have more people who believe in kindness and justice, rather than hypocrites, perverts, who abuse the concept of god to meet their selfish ends.

#4. have a nice time u too.

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:16 am
by Guest
Hi
I wish you all the best.
I am so happy that I could converse with you.

have a nice time
Hossein

and

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:34 pm
by nameless
<<--Hi
I wish you all the best.
I am so happy that I could converse with you.

have a nice time -->>

#1. hi! thank u for ur wishes and i wish the same for u. and yes, thank u for giving me much of ur precious time. i too am happy at being able to get a chance to talk with u and others here. :-) do have a nice time.

#2. a prayer for patience: oh god, grant me patience, AND GRANT IT TO ME NOWWW!!!'

Re: umm

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:13 pm
by Kaiser Wilhelm VIII
nameless wrote:#3. i think u talked about bahaullah's revelation and not bab's proclamation. as such it seems bab has a better right towards any credit for the first telegraph, rather than bahaullah.


The Baha'i dispensation begins on May 23rd 1844. The Baha'i calendar also. Everything revolves around this pivot. To Baha'is there is no difference because the Bab's sole mission was to prepare the way for Baha'u'llah. Every single thing He said, wrote and did was intended for this end. Baha'is don't really care about the telegraph thing and maybe you're right, it was just a coincidence. But it is a fact that for Baha'is everything begins with the Bab's declaration, not with the declaration of Baha'u'llah. He is called the Primal Point, He sets things in motion.


nameless wrote:#6. till then, since u believe quran is from god then how do u explain god's ruling on this matter.


God's revelation is contingent on its time and place. What was revealed by Muhammad (pbuH) was intended for that time. Just as the revelations of Moses, Jesus, etc. were for their time. If you like, compare it to school. In grade school physics you learn about Newtonian physics but by the time you're doing your PhD you are learning about string theory.


nameless wrote:#7. if bahaism is of equality between women and men, then why does it exempt women from some religious duties, an example: pilgrimage to mecca. since it exempts women and not men it quite follows that bahaism does recognise some inequality between women and men.


Exempting women, for example from pilgrimage (Baha'is don't go to Mecca) doesn't mean they are forbidden. It means they are exempt - they don't have to go if they choose not to go. And reciprocally, they can go if they choose to go. It was a mentioned as a token of grace that they were given the exemption. Many women have gone to Baha'i pilgrimage - my mother and sisters being some of them. In fact most women do go. Unfortunately Baha'is can't really perform pilgrimage so its a moot point.

nameless wrote:#8. bahaism proclaims loud that women should be included in matters of decision-making and that its women who will lead to world peace. oddly enough, the universal house of justice may not include women and all the nine members be males. comment.


This is a rather sensitive area for Baha'is as many hold the opinion that women can indeed be elected to the UHJ. The topic and the reasons why some hold this view can be rather complicated so I'm reluctant to get into them right now and throw the discussion on a tangent. If you are interested you can google: service of women bahai.


nameless wrote:#9. on the contrary, bahaism has a universal house of justice the injunctions of which has to be obeyed under all circusstances. so ecclesiasticism alive and kicking in bahaism. comment.


You misunderstand the role and sphere of authority of the UHJ. It is an administrative institution which is endowed with the authority to create and modify (not abolish) Baha'i laws. They can not interpret scripture or infringe on spiritual matters. As well, they are not an intermediary between a Baha'i and God - they do not hear confessions nor judge anyone's spiritual worth. The main work of the UHJ is the administrative organization of the Baha'i world wide community. You can find their constitution by googling for it.


nameless wrote:#11. i meant how can a soul be at bliss and yet be in agony.


The dual nature would explain it. On one hand He was a human being and on the other He was a manifestation of God.


nameless wrote:#12. surely. but it does seem he wasnt to happy with his sufferings in the prison and was eager that some ruler get him out of there.


I don't think He was eager for a king to rescue Him, as I mentioned He wanted a champion for His Faith. Maybe it would help if you show me which text gives you that impression. I can't think of it right now by memory.


nameless wrote:#13. how about my following teachings of bahaism (or something similar) but not attesting to bahaullah. will god discriminate against me in this case.


You'll have to ask Him. I can't presume to speak on His behalf ;o)

I do know that in the Kitab-i-Aqdas (The Most Holy Book) the mother book of the Baha'i Faith, it says that there are two duties to each person, to recognize the manifestation of God and to follow His teachings. The two are inseparable and linked. One without the other is meaningless.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KA/ka-4.html

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:00 pm
by Baha'i Warrior
Ah, yes, the old "women on the UHJ" debate again. I think some very good points have been made in previous threads.

But the fact remains that the Koran does not state that men and women are equals. You can take a verse from the Koran and try to make it sound like it says that, but you need only look at the majority of Muslims in the world, and that might give you some insight as to how clear the Koran was on that issue. Enough said.

Conclusion: The Baha'i Faith is the only world religion that explicitly states men and women are equal, black and white are equal. Previous dispensations did not do this. Therefore, the Baha'i Faith clearly has the social teachings that are indispensable for this day and age, and the only means by which world unity may be achieved.

hmmm

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:15 am
by nameless
<<--The Baha'i dispensation begins on May 23rd 1844. The Baha'i calendar also. Everything revolves around this pivot....
...The two are inseparable and linked. One without the other is meaningless.-->>

#1. agreed. v cannot speak on behalf of god based on our presumptions.

<<--Ah, yes, the old "women on the UHJ" debate again. I think some very good points have been made in previous threads....
...Therefore, the Baha'i Faith clearly has the social teachings that are indispensable for this day and age, and the only means by which world unity may be achieved.-->>

#2. conclusions are often based on presumptions. so as far as conclusions go, all are free to draw their own conclusions (based on their presumptions).

#3. in any case, it is would be wonderful to have a world where kindness and justice are the norms, and equality is the foundation.

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:41 am
by Guest
Hi
nameless it is nice that you already began to write.

From Station of Baha'u'llah, Announcement to the Kings

The letters of Bahá’u’lláh address themselves to this mental world:

O Kings of the earth! He Who is the sovereign Lord of all is come. The Kingdom is God’s, the omnipotent Protector, the Self-Subsisting…. This is a Revelation to which whatever ye possess can never be compared, could ye but know it.
Take heed lest pride deter you from recognizing the Source of Revelation, lest the things of this world shut you out as by a veil from Him Who is the Creator of heaven…. By the righteousness of God! It is not Our wish to lay hands on your kingdoms. Our mission is to seize and possess the hearts of men…. 5
Know ye that the poor are the trust of God in your midst. Watch that ye betray not His trust, that ye deal not unjustly with them and that ye walk not in the ways of the treacherous. Ye will most certainly be called upon to answer for His trust on the day when the Balance of Justice shall be set, the day when unto every one shall be rendered his due, when the doings of all men, be they rich or poor, shall be weighed.

20
Examine Our Cause, inquire into the things that have befallen Us, and decide justly between Us and Our enemies, and be ye of them that act equitably towards their neighbor. If ye stay not the hand of the oppressor, if ye fail to safeguard the rights of the downtrodden, what right have ye then to vaunt yourselves among men? 6
If ye pay no heed unto the counsels which … We have revealed in this Tablet, Divine chastisement shall assail you from every direction, and the sentence of His justice shall be pronounced against you. On that day ye shall have no power to resist Him, and shall recognize your own impotence…. 7

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/bic/SB/sb-10.html

have a nice time
Hossein

ummm

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:54 am
by nameless
<<--Hi
nameless it is nice that you already began to write. -->>

#1. hi! i intended not to engage myself in discussing the validity or lack of it of any particular belief. and i intend to.

#2. have a nice time u to.

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:22 pm
by Hossein
I am sure you are not intend to.

I found this subject interesting which you have pointed:

#2. yes, but quran says there be no compulsion in religion...


This is correct, It is vers 256 in The Holy Quran is:

Code: Select all

Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error; whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah   2)


But in the other surah (Ali 'Imran (The Family of Imran)) verses 90 and 91 we read:

Code: Select all

90. But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith, never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.

91. As to those who reject faith, and die rejecting, never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers.
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah   3)


So if somebody accept islam/faith and then reject it, he/she has a penalty. In shi'a if this man/woman is born from moslem parents and lived as moslem, his/hers repent is not acceptable and the penalty is death. and if he is not born by the moslem parent, his repent can be accepted, and his penalty is not so hard as the first case (according woman the penalty is not so hard).

Have a nice time
Hossein

hmmm

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:46 pm
by nameless
<<--I am sure you are not intend to.-->>

#1. is that ur gut-feeling. or was it some analysis (of my earlier posts). or perhaps experience (of having dealt with lot many like me before). or did come to u some knowledge (in this regard). or are u omniscient.

#2. have a nice time u too.

a new religion

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:47 pm
by invitado
Well, friends, Nameless is really picky.
Dearest Nameless
Consider you are suddenly the president of a country in which there are many different religious groups that if not fighting openly, at least not warm towards each other. (That creates a headake to you there is no harmony) Add to that, some of those groups are so attached to traditions that they don't consider vaccinations proper. Some of their kids are dying of different disseasses. (The cost of medical care goes up, not to mention the disruption of society). Some groups are very liberal and free, sexual relationships are very easy and not much consideration as with whom or when you get involved. General corruption is prevalent since religion has lost its luster; people take it for granted and go to church mainly to be recgonized as belonging to a certain group, not because any real inner transformation.
If you are socially concious, if you really want to help the country you are the leader of, you better get a movement that can inspire large number of people, capture their hearts and minds, quick, and will bring harmony, intellectual development, and moral values to your people.
While looking for such a movement, I would recommend to you to consider the Baha'i Faith for such an enterprise.

okay

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:26 pm
by nameless
<<--Consider you are suddenly the president of a country in which there are many different religious groups that if not fighting openly, at least not warm towards each other....
...While looking for such a movement, I would recommend to you to consider the Baha'i Faith for such an enterprise.-->>

#1. cool. i will consider ur recommendation. :-)

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:10 pm
by Baha'i Warrior
Nicely said, invitado.

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:29 pm
by Guest
I was just going through this discussion thread and I thought I should share a few thoughts:

1. There have been claims that only the Bahai Faith provides the stucture to prevent division into sects. This makes the Bahai faith unique to every other religion. I disagree with that since you only have to google it to find that there have, in fact, been divisions in the faith.

Also, about discrimination and equality of men and women being promoted only by the Bahai faith, a look at the following verses from the Christian Bible speak for themselves:

Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Colosians 3:11 - a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all



1Co 7:4
The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.



Eph 5:31
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.


Personally, I think it is really hard to try to validate a faith by exclusively appealing to these social rules, albeit, they ultimately may be spiritually-inspired. In my point of view it is more important to discuss how a religion claims to deal with sin (disobedience to God). That is the root of all social vices and that has been the main problem with mankind over the ages.
Therefore, how does God deal with sin?
In Judaism, there were sacrifices (i think anually) offered to God as an atonement.
Christians claim that Jesus was the Perfect sacrifice for all ages. In that sense, sin (the root of all human vices) has been permanently dealt with in Jesus.

I am not sure what Islam and the bahai faith have to offer in this sense. I don't mean to be offensive. I'm just indicating that I'm not aware of such provisions. I'm only aware of the fact that good deeds are measured against bad deeds: these are measured against the standard of Laws.

Any thoughts?

nameless way tao whatver ciao

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:17 pm
by nameless
'There are ways but the Way is uncharted;
There are names but not nature in words:
Nameless indeed is the source of creation
But things have a mother and she has a name.

The secret waits for the insight
Of eyes unclouded by longing;
Those who are bound by desire
See only the outward container.

These two come paired but distinct
By there names.
Of all things profound,
Say that their pairing is deepest,
The gate to the root of the world. '


*~*~*~*

'The Way that can be experienced is not true;
The world that can be constructed is not real.
The Way manifests all that happens and may happen;
The world represents all that exists and may exist.

To experience without abstraction is to sense the world;
To experience with abstraction is to know the world.
These two experiences are indistinguishable;
Their construction differs but their effect is the same.

Beyond the gate of experience flows the Way,
Which is ever greater and more subtle than the world.'

~*~*~*

'Even the finest teaching is not the Tao itself.
Even the finest name is insufficient to define it.
Without words, the Tao can be experienced,
and without a name, it can be known.

To conduct one's life according to the Tao,
is to conduct one's life without regrets;
to realize that potential within oneself
which is of benefit to all.

Though words or names are not required
to live one's life this way,
to describe it, words and names are used,
that we might better clarify
the way of which we speak,
without confusing it with other ways
in which an individual might choose to live.

Through knowledge, intellectual thought and words,
the manifestations of the Tao are known,
but without such intellectual intent
we might experience the Tao itself.

Both knowledge and experience are real,
but reality has many forms,
which seem to cause complexity.

By using the means appropriate,
we extend ourselves beyond
the barriers of such complexity,
and so experience the Tao.'

~*~*~*

'1. The Tao-Path is not the All-Tao. The Name is not the Thing named.

2. Unmanifested, it is the Secret Father ofmanifested, it is their Mother.

3. To understand this Mystery, one must be fulfilling one's will, and if one is not thus free, one will but gain a smattering of it.

4. The Tao is one, and the Teh but a phase thereof. The abyss of this Mystery is the Portal of Serpent-Wonder.'

~*~*~*

'The Way that can be followed is not the eternal Way.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless is the origin of heaven and earth

While naming is the origin of the myriad things.

Therefore, always desireless, you see the mystery

Ever desiring, you see the manifestations.

These two are the same—

When they appear they are named differently.



This sameness is the mystery,

Mystery within mystery;



The door to all marvels.'

~*~*~*

'The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and
unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and
unchanging name.

(Conceived of as) having no name, it is the Originator of heaven
and earth; (conceived of as) having a name, it is the Mother of all
things.

Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see.

Under these two aspects, it is really the same; but as development
takes place, it receives the different names. Together we call them
the Mystery. Where the Mystery is the deepest is the gate of all that
is subtle and wonderful.'

#1. hmmm. ciao.

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:33 pm
by Baha'i Warrior
if you sin, especially if you break a law, you will be distanced from God (spiritually). in this life you do good things and bad things. good things bring your spirit go closer to God, bad things have the opposite effect. "heaven" is closeness to God, "hell" is nearness from Him. how do you make your spirit advance toward God? prayer, and abiding by His laws and exhortations. working (if done in a selflessly) is worship of God and so even if you are not praying a prayer at a certain instant, you can still be in a prayerful mood, and that is the ultimate goal of the Baha'i.

we don't literally believe in a heaven and hell, even though Baha'is refer to the Abha kingdom (where the faithful enter in the next world). we keep progressing infinitely in the next worlds because obviously no one can ever reach the station of God.

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:11 am
by Guest
I understand the Bahai concept of heaven and hell being on a broad progressive spectrum with heaven or hell being opposite extremes.
Correct me if you think otherwise, but I don't think that definition of heaven or hell changes the nature of our discussion. I say that because, irrespective of any definition, one would like to be in heaven (or close to God) and avoid hell (very distant from God).

So the question is what changes have manifestations brought so that it is easier to attain heaven. The whole premise for the need of new manifestations is that mankind gets corrupted overtime and so needs manifestations from time to time who bring in some sense newer and more up-to-date revelations.
You stated that:

if you sin, especially if you break a law, you will be distanced from God (spiritually). in this life you do good things and bad things. .... how do you make your spirit advance toward God? prayer, and abiding by His laws and exhortations. working (if done in a selflessly) is worship of God ... and that is the ultimate goal of the Baha'i.


Yes it is important to do all the above to help you get closer to God. However, prayer, abiding by the law, and all the other things you mention have been promoted by some "manifestations", at the least.
So then, why do we really need a new revelation?
Why do you present second grade material when a person has not mastered the first grade material?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:51 pm
by Baha'i Warrior
Anonymous wrote:Yes it is important to do all the above to help you get closer to God. However, prayer, abiding by the law, and all the other things you mention have been promoted by some "manifestations", at the least.
So then, why do we really need a new revelation?
Why do you present second grade material when a person has not mastered the first grade material?



Show me the holy book of any past dispensation, and point to me where it says, Work, done in a selfless spirit, is worship of God. You won't find it. This is a totally new phenomenon.

Salvation is attained through your personal worship of God, but also through your selfless contribution to society. The Baha'i Faith is as much an individual as social religion. The goal of Christianity is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior so that you may get into Heaven. If you look at the New Testament, you will notice that Jesus didn't even reveal any new laws.

The Baha'i Faith is unique in that it will build a world order based on its unique social teachings. If you are a Christian and you do not believe in the equality of the races, then you are not going against the Christian teachings. That's how slavery happened. If you can make the argument that Noah placed a curse on Ham and his son Canaan turned black because of that curse, then you could make the argument that blacks are inferior to whites, as the slave masters did.

Likewise, the Koran doesn't explicitly state that black and white are equal, men and women are equal. It does not address this issue directly. And this is still why there is hate in the world, because there is a lack of guidance. This is what the Baha'i Faith provides. It very explicitly states that all are equal under God and that world unity will not be achieved until we as a whole realize this.

So the Baha’i Faith places a much greater emphasis on social teachings than do past religions. For Buddhism, for example, life’s problem is suffering, and the goal is to end that suffering. For Christianity, the emphasis is on having a “personal relationship with Jesus,” and for Islam, doing good deeds and reciting the Koran (“Koran” is related to the world “recite.”)

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:20 pm
by Hossein
Hi
Guest, Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:29 pm , Wrote:

1. ... I disagree with that since you only have to google it...


What do you mean by "Division", you mean sect, if yes, please explain how do you difine that?

To know more about The Holy Bible, it is better to study some other verses too.

11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)


11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)


2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
(King James Bible, 1 Timothy)


9:2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.
(King James Bible, Ezra)



about sin, as long as I know, A christian born with the sin (even you have done nothing), because of that we have babtise. such a understanding we can not find in the Baha'i faith.

But it is also not clear for me what do you mean by sin? If somebody kill somebody? or somebody backbiting?

Baha'i Warroir had explain very well, how Baha'i understand "sin" (which means, if I say it correct, breaking the divine law).

The question about "why we need a new religion or revelation", we have discuss about that in this topic, please read "Some answer and Questions" by Abdu'l-Baha, there is a chapter about this subject and The master explained why we need and will need.

As an example, imagin when you were 7 years old and your mother purchased a nice shirt for you, but now you are 20 years old, and you can not wear it, even you like it and it is nice.

It is not a question of passing a grade, some people have passed, but the problem is that Human forget after some times, because of that somebody should notice us that God is still there and know your need.

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:26 pm
by Guest
BW,

Lets take the work as worship for example. I hope that we can be open-minded about this. I don't think that selfless work is a new thing. Now, what has worship been associated with in the past? The obvious one is reverence or adoration or extreme expression of love as to a deity. Also, in hebrew text, worship has been associated with work. So, if you work, (with God being the motivator and object of your service), then you could call that worship. This is a more technical way to look at it.

But just consider all the good people in the past. Have they not sought to work selflessly? Even for people who do not believe in God, do some of them not make it an aim to work selflessly? Thus, selfless work in and of itself may not necessarily be worship. Otherwise the selfless working atheist is actually worshipping! I think worshipping is always a conscious action otherwise some of us would be reduced to mindless robotic worshippers. This is just my humble opinion. You may be right that it might not be categorically stated anywhere that work is worship that I know of. However, looking at the scriptures in context, it is not hard to deduce that work is worship...provided your work is in reverence to God!

About equality of races again I post these quotes from the Bible:

Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Colosians 3:11 - a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all



I think it is unfortunate for you to imply that christianity condones slavery.
"Love your neighbor as yourself" pretty much summarizes the christian sentiment on slavery. I am sure that in spite of all the really great ideals and values the Bahai faith promotes, there are some Bahais, including perhaps yourself, that breaks these ideals over and over again. Should I then conclude that Bahais don't support those ideals? Thus to use slavery to prove that christianity supports slavery is unfair.

I'm not very learned in these religious matters and so I appologize if I come off as naive. You say that the Bahai faith focuses on social issues more than other dispensations. We being spiritual beings, I would expect that the new changes from manifestations would be more spiritual: spiritual change would then engender social/physical changes.

I disagree that Christ did not bring new stuff. Until Christ's time, atonement for sins (in Judaism) was only done once a year on behalf of people by the high priest. There really was no direct interaction or personal relationship with God. People needed the high priest in order to interact with God. He the high priest would go into the holy of holies, in the temple, only once a year, to the presence of God.

Jesus ushered a in a new age of spiritual interaction with God whereby ordinary men and women could directly go before the presence of God. Also, no more yearly sacrifices of atonement were needed. Now those are not social changes.

So when I ask for new things that Bahai faith offers, I mean things which one cannot find in other dispensations by looking at context and implications of scripture from those dispensation. I hope i'm making sense.

Thanks B.W. I look forward to your response.
Best wishes.

ummm

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:55 am
by nameless
baha'i warrior <<--if you sin, especially if you break a law...-->>

#1. i cant quite get that. is sinning not breaking a law(?) what's the significance of the word 'especially'(?)

hossein <<--Baha'i Warroir had explain very well, how Baha'i understand "sin" (which means, if I say it correct, breaking the divine law).-->>

#2. is there a concept of 'unintentional' sin(?)

#3. is there any scope for finding disfavor with god without 'sinning'(?)

#4. again, are there 'grades' of sins(?) if so, has bahaism graded sins(?)

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:48 am
by Hossein
Hi
nameless wrote:

#1. i cant quite get that. is sinning not...


Sin is breaking the divine law e.g. Backbiting. If you backbiting someone the police does not arrest you because of that, it is no crime. The social (or the country which I live in) law has no paragraph about that. So there is a diference between sin and crime.

Should anyone be afflicted by a sin, it behoveth him to repent thereof and return unto his Lord. He, verily, granteth forgiveness unto whomsoever He willeth, and none may question that which it pleaseth Him to ordain. He is, in truth, the Ever-Forgiving, the Almighty, the All-Praised.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 37)


The social law judge you after whaich crime have you done, if you still something they put you in a jail, if you backbiting nothing happen.
But if you are a believer as a Baha'i, so should we know what baha'u'allah had revealed in e.g. Kitab-i-Aqdas and we see a sin is a sin, we have not big sin or little sin (no grade):

Ye have been forbidden to commit murder or
adultery, or to engage in backbiting or calumny; shun
ye, then, what hath been prohibited in the holy Books
and Tablets.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 25)


There is a word in arabic/persian "خشیة الله" which I could not find it in english, After my knowledge this word is give us a better understanding of judgment in the Baha'i faith. There is sentence inthe "Tablets of Baha'u'llah, revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas" which I will find and put it here for you.

To make order in a society you need "judgement", we can talk about that later.

have a nice time
Hossein

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:38 am
by Hossein
Ok I find it. خشیة الله in english means: Fear of God

The word of God which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of the Most Exalted Paradise is this: Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed and do not possess it.
(Bahá'u'llah, Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p.63)

hmmm

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:43 pm
by nameless
<<--Sin is breaking the divine law e.g. Backbiting. If you backbiting someone the police does not arrest you because of that, it is no crime. The social (or the country which I live in) law has no paragraph about that. So there is a diference between sin and crime.-->>

<<--Ye have been forbidden to commit murder or
adultery, or to engage in backbiting or calumny; shun
ye, then, what hath been prohibited in the holy Books
and Tablets.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 25)-->>

#1. so backbiting is a religious sin but not a social crime(?) i get that, but is there any sin which can be committed without breaking divine laws(?)


<<--But if you are a believer as a Baha'i, so should we know what baha'u'allah had revealed in e.g. Kitab-i-Aqdas and we see a sin is a sin, we have not big sin or little sin (no grade): -->>

#2. but i dont think backbiting and murder have the same punishment. murder is punishable by death while backbiting isnt, or am i wrong(?)

#3. again, if sins cause me to be isolated from god, then whether i backbite or murder or do something worse, i will still suffer the same degree of isolation(?)

<<--To make order in a society you need "judgement", we can talk about that later. -->>

#4. do talk about that.

#5. have a nice time u too. :-)

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:26 pm
by Baha'i Warrior
[quote="Anonymous"]Even for people who do not believe in God, do some of them not make it an aim to work selflessly? Thus, selfless work in and of itself may not necessarily be worship. Otherwise the selfless working atheist is actually worshipping![/quote]

That's an interesting point. But 'Abdu'l-Baha makes it clear that work in itself, if done thoughtfully, is worship, even if the work in itself is not something spiritual (like making a piece of notepaper):

[list][i]"In the Bahá'í Cause arts, sciences and all crafts are counted as worship. The man who makes a piece of notepaper to the best of his ability, conscientiously, concentrating all his forces on perfecting it, is giving praise to God. Briefly, all effort and exertion put forth by man from the fullness of his heart is worship, if it is prompted by the highest motives and the will to do service to humanity. This is worship: to serve mankind and to minister to the needs of the people. Service is prayer. A physician ministering to the sick, gently, tenderly, free from prejudice and believing in the solidarity of the human race, is giving praise."[/i]

`Abdu'l-Bahá, quoted in J. E. Esslemont, Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era, 5th rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1987), 79.[/list]

Also, Baha'u'llah says that work has now been promoted to being worship of God, indicating that in the past selfless work did not have the same magnitude of effect:

[list][i]"O people of Bahá! It is incumbent upon each one of you to engage in some occupation--such as a craft, a trade or the like. We have exalted your engagement in such work to the rank of worship of the one true God. Reflect, O people, on the grace and blessings of your Lord, and yield Him thanks at eventide and dawn. Waste not your hours in idleness and sloth, but occupy yourselves with what will profit you and others."[/i]

Kitáb-i-Aqdas (Haifa: Bahá'í World Centre, 1992), 30.[/list]

Again, that point you made about the atheist working selflessly is interesting, but I think if his work is indeed done selflessly, he will be rewarded accordingly in the next life. Baha'u'llah states: [i]"For every act performed there shall be a recompense according to the estimate of God, and unto this the very ordinances and prohibitions prescribed by the Almighty amply bear witness."[/i] I would think Baha'u'llah is speaking about theists and atheists alike. But there is something special about Baha'u'llah's Faith that is very distinct from past dispensations. In [i]The Advent of Divine Justice[/i] by Shoghi Effendi, he quotes 'Abdu'l-Baha saying:

[list][i]"The Báb hath said: `Should a tiny ant desire, in this day, to be possessed of such power as to be able to unravel the abstrusest and most bewildering passages of the Qur'án, its wish will no doubt be fulfilled, inasmuch as the mystery of eternal might vibrates within the innermost being of all created things.' If so helpless a creature can be endowed with so subtle a capacity, how much more efficacious must be the power released through the liberal effusions of the grace of Bahá'u'lláh!"[/i]

p. 46[/list]

So by this quote, it seems that surely a Baha'i (and by extension someone who believes in God) working would have a greater recompense than that of an atheist, because the person who believes in God is fulfilling his purpose (serving humanity because of the love for God). That's what I get out of it, but I could be wrong.


[quote="Anonymous"]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.[/quote]

Yes, that's true, but I guess my point was that this quote is certainly not stressed by Christians. They do not put this at the forefront of their agenda. Because in practice, the religion is largely dominated by men. And my point about slavery was that, had belief in the oneness of the races been around at that time and stressed (as it is in the Baha'i Faith), then obviously Christians wouldn't have bought slaves and treated them with cruelty. Other religions, like Islam, have somewhere in their holy book that all are equal in the sight of God, but the problem is that it was never stressed. That is why you can go to any country dominated by Muslims and find women in a bad state, and this is also why in Iran a women's testimony is only equal to half of a man's.

So sure, the Baha'i Faith might not have extremely new or revolutionary ideas, but it takes certain principles (that may be found in some other world religions) and puts them together in a way that makes them work.

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:32 pm
by Hossein
Hi

nameless wrote:
...but is there any sin which can be committed without...

No, as far as I know.

...#2. but i dont think backbiting and murder have the same punishment...

You have right about punishment, but it is still sin, but now when we talk about punishment and how hard we will punish, is because to make order in the society, therefore a murder will be punish harder. In Baha'i writing we read:
42. Punishments for arson, adultery, murder and theft are specified
in the Aqdas, but they are intended for a future condition of
society, when they will be supplemented and applied by the
Universal House of Justice. (p. 47)
(Baha'u'llah, Synopsis and Codification of the Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 64)


In this Book He, moreover, prescribes the obligatory
prayers; designates the time and period of fasting; prohibits
congregational prayer except for the dead; fixes the Qiblih;
institutes the Huququ'lláh (Right of God); formulates the
law of inheritance; ordains the institution of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar;
establishes the Nineteen Day Feast, the Bahá'í
festivals and the Intercalary Days; abolishes the institution
of priesthood; prohibits slavery, asceticism, mendicancy,
monasticism, penance, the use of pulpits and the kissing of
hands; prescribes monogamy; condemns cruelty to animals,
idleness and sloth, backbiting and calumny; censures
divorce; interdicts gambling, the use of opium, wine and
other intoxicating drinks; specifies the punishments for
murder, arson, adultery and theft; stresses the importance of
marriage and lays down its essential conditions; imposes the
obligation of engaging in some trade or profession, exalting
such occupation to the rank of worship; emphasizes the
necessity of providing the means for the education of
children; and lays upon every person the duty of writing a
testament and of strict obedience to one's government.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 14, A DESCRIPTION OF THE KITAB-I-AQDAS BY SHOGHI EFFENDI)


35. Ye have been forbidden to commit murder # 19
The prohibition against taking another's life is repeated by
Bahá'u'lláh in paragraph 73 of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas. Penalties
are prescribed for premeditated murder (see note 86). In the
case of manslaughter, it is necessary to pay a specified
indemnity to the family of the deceased (see Kitáb-i-Aqdas,
# 188).

Penalties are prescribed for premeditated murder (see note 86).
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 181)

The law of Bahá'u'lláh prescribes the death penalty for
murder and arson, with the alternative of life imprisonment
(see note 87).
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 203)

In the Aqdas Bahá'u'lláh has given death as the penalty
for murder. However, He has permitted life imprisonment
as an alternative. Both practices would be in
accordance with His Laws. Some of us may not be able to
grasp the wisdom of this when it disagrees with our own
limited vision; but we must accept it, knowing His
Wisdom, His Mercy and His Justice are perfect and for
the salvation of the entire world. If a man were falsely
condemned to die, can we not believe Almighty God
would compensate him a thousandfold, in the next
world, for this human injustice? You cannot give up a
salutary law just because on rare occasions the innocent
may be punished.

The details of the Bahá'í law of punishment for murder
and arson, a law designed for a future state of society, were
not specified by Bahá'u'lláh. The various details of the law,
such as degrees of offence, whether extenuating circumstances
are to be taken into account, and which of the two
prescribed punishments is to be the norm are left to the
Universal House of Justice to decide in light of prevailing
conditions when the law is to be in operation. The manner
in which the punishment is to be carried out is also left to
the Universal House of Justice to decide.
In relation to arson, this depends on what "house" is
burned. There is obviously a tremendous difference in the
degree of offence between the person who burns down an
empty warehouse and one who sets fire to a school full of
children.

87. Should ye condemn the arsonist and the murderer
to life imprisonment, it would be permissible according
to the provisions of the Book. # 62

Shoghi Effendi, in response to a question about this verse of
the Aqdas, affirmed that while capital punishment is  205 
permitted, an alternative, "life imprisonment", has been
provided "whereby the rigours of such a condemnation can
be seriously mitigated". He states that "Bahá'u'lláh has
given us a choice and has, therefore, left us free to use our
own discretion within certain limitations imposed by His
law". In the absence of specific guidance concerning the
application of this aspect of Bahá'í law, it remains for the
Universal House of Justice to legislate on the matter in the
future.


But all and all The Baha'i Faith working to educate and teach people/socitey, and give them a better life, we should/could not compare "The Baha'i world" with the world in this time (do you follow me here?).

...#3. again,...

My understanding is yes, it is the same, after what I understand from Kitab-i-Aqdas verses. But may be we can find a better explaination.

have a nice time
Hossein

yeah...

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:54 am
by nameless
<<--But all and all The Baha'i Faith working to educate and teach people/socitey, and give them a better life, we should/could not compare "The Baha'i world" with the world in this time (do you follow me here?).-->>

#1. hi! i *think* u are talking about utopia. somehow, somewhere in the near future bahaism will be the universal religion and then the 'bahai world' will be truly manifest.

#2. have a nice time u too. :-)

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:39 am
by Hossein
Hi
#1. hi! i *think* u are talking about utopia...


So, now you know what is my and other peoples utopia (if you want to name it like that), I will be happy to know what is your utopia?

Baha'u'llahs new worlds order is a must.

have a nice time
Hossein

well..

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:03 am
by nameless
<<So, now you know what is my and other peoples utopia-->>

#1. u talked about bahai world and this world. and that bahais aim is to spread the teachings of bahaullah. so i *presumed* u are saying when that when the teachings of bahaullah have spread the expanse of the earth, then this world will become a bahai world, in other words an imperfect world will become a perfect world, which some call as utopia.

<<--(if you want to name it like that),-->>

#2. personally, i think a thorn by any other name would prick just as much.

<<--I will be happy to know what is your utopia?-->>

#3. hmmm. with my limited knowledge and understanding, i dont think i can really talk about a perfect world.

#4. have a nice time u too. :-)

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:25 am
by Hossein
Hi

[quote]#3. hmmm. with my limited knowledge and understanding.../quote]

you are not alone, to have/get more knowledge and understanding, God send us a new manifastation, a new religion.

have a nice time
Hossein