a *new* religion

All research or scholarship questions
majnun
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Dear Nameless

Postby majnun » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:08 am

What causes you so much pain ?

Majnun.

nameless
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well...

Postby nameless » Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:13 am

<<--What causes you so much pain ?-->>

#1. among many other things: ur persecution, or more broadly speaking: of bahais, and still more: of minorities, further (which may or may not be applicable): of innocents :-)

nameless
Posts: 80
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hmmm

Postby nameless » Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:35 am

<<--you are not alone, to have/get more knowledge and understanding, God send us a new manifastation, a new religion.-->>

#1. hi! it is not so much about new or old religion for me, but my own lack of understanding and knowledge that makes me unfit for speculation about a perfect world.

#2. like u cannot see stars against the light of the sun. so the problem is not that the stars are not out there, only our limited vision cannot behold. likewise. :-)

#3. have a nice time u too. :-)

majnun
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manuscript of the Tao

Postby majnun » Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:34 pm

Dear friend:

I was just wondering why these ideas are
expressed by your person, separately, like no 1, 2, 3, etc.
Could you explain this "persecution" you mentioned above,
what you feel about this? It seems obvious that you read
"the book of certitude" if i get the right picture from "stars against the sun".


The Tao is a very nice and profound text, like so many,
like some Gibran philosophy, or more profound still.
The mental images produced by the Tao, to my
mind, are very relaxing, and they open some avenues
wich normally were somewhat blocked for me.

[b]the bahai concepts[/b]
The concept of inner unification (tauhid, valley 4) is
redefined by the Bahai scriptures. However we, humans,
have this tendency to separate, to split concepts and
ideas into tiny separate parts.

What is garanteed by the Messenger is that most
of the mental maelström we may live in will be erased
by the therapeutic application of each valley. It is
possible after that, that mental enumeration or
intellectualisation (rhetoric thinking) may seems
unnecessary to enjoy one's life.

This separate way of thinking seems inherent to
most of us, as an exemple:

When Baha'u'llah wrote the valleys (and also Gems),
he did not split them into parts, except he indicated
7 and 4 parts, at the beginning of the text. The original text
is united like a single loaf of bread. Translators of
the 1900 era felt the need to put notes, and subtitles
to underline, identify, or differentiate many parts of the text.

It's like we need, at first, a sort of "chaptering" system,
like we did while translating the bibles. Some versions
of the Quran (like Dr Khalifa's) incorporate many subtitles
on inter-titlings, to make separate parts of the text easy to
identify. This small "technical" detail may indicate our human weakness,
compared to the source (the top Authority) who does not think
nor express with separate compartments, but in a united fashion, wich many of us did not acheive yet.

But this is not always the case, like the chapters names
"hidden words", each little paragraph is numbered by the Messenger,
and each little block is separated, to permit an inner reflection (or the term : meditation) on each topic. Maybe after a while, our mind will
unite all the single slices to form a single solid loaf ? I dunno.

Some things written by the Top Authority demands a few moments
of thinking sometimes, from whatever Scriptures it comes to us. Another factor for this is the accuracy of availuable translations.

I looked at a manuscript of the Tao (avail on the internet) and i wondered
how could we translate all these signs into our western syntaxic languages ? And doing it so that we do not includes our projections into the translations.

For the Gospels, it was another story. From Aramean to Greek, Latin, and finally in the western langages. The Quran and following scriptures are availuable in the original langage, maybe they are easyer to translate accurately than the signs of the Tao te ching.

However, before 1980, no accurate translation of the Quran was availuable for western people, until Dr Khalifa gave 19 years of his lifetime to translate it. Newer translations are produced again and again by many groups, and this is not made for propaganda, but to be as close as possible to the original text of the Quran.

Today, teams of specialists work on translations of the Bible with the oldest manuscripts they found. This need for accuracy is the same with
the Bahai Scriptures, and fortunately the original texts are availuable to
specialists translators.

Even with the most accurate translations availuable, reflexion, meditation and thinking is quite usefull to ingest concepts. Like the "hadid view", that says : now your vision is in iron. (as expressed in the Qur'an).

Logically, it has no sense, but if we take the image of solidity of the iron metal, we may conclude that our inner vision has been solidified by the scriptures, that our inner lenses have been cleaned, or polished, because we became conscious of things we did not know before.

On the other hand, If we say of someone, "he has eyes of steel", it may also mean that it is a person with coarse manners, even a criminal, or an internally very angry person. It is a question of interpretation, based on a personal reflexion (meditation).

It like when Abdul Baha and his father mention the expression: "the bird of your spirit". Gee ! I know there ain't no bird in my mind, but maybe my toughts are a bit "volatile", like changing winds ? Other topics do not use this kind of images, like when "talking behind the back of a person" will put you into trouble, this is clear enough not to require mental images because we know it is true and can be verified in our actual lifetime.

This tread is very friendly actually, quite nice. We are lucky to have
such a quick contact with the new scriptures, without having to wait for
many centuries to get a clear view of the Messages from above.

I hope this explanation is not to complex or too separate for most.

Majnun.

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Re: well...

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:13 pm

the only way they will have better lives is through the teaching of Baha'u'llah, and they level accusations against the Baha'is and accuse them of the exact things they are not :?

Baha'u'llah is the messenger for this day and age! THE person you have been waiting for!! why do you not hasten to Him? He is your only Friend, He likes you more than you like yourselves, but many people do not grasp this concept. many people wish for themselves abasement, whereas Baha'u'llah wishes for them glory in the next life, and also glory in this one too

i really wish when people heard about the baha'i faith, they would take a long time investigating it, for their own sakes (as their own religions instruct them too). this is not a play thing; it is real. you will die and will have to answer to God!! your limbs will quake in fear. is it not better to come prepared? in case Baha'u'llah is a Messenger of God, i would do much investigation



nameless wrote:<<--What causes you so much pain ?-->>

#1. among many other things: ur persecution, or more broadly speaking: of bahais, and still more: of minorities, further (which may or may not be applicable): of innocents :-)

majnun
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Postby majnun » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:32 pm

I think you make projections of your hopes and dreams.
Divinising a messenger is stepping out of the track.
To put his message (teachings) in application is more important
than focusing on his name.

The messenger did the job he had to do, against all odds.
These writings are very powerfull therapeutic tools, when
well translated. They transforms caged lives into something else.

Our duty is to retransmit them, or to promote them while
our behavior may entice a searching person to investigate
by himself. The tablet "Madina al-rida" (1860) focuses on this important
part that you must have put this in practice in your own life,
before opening your mouth about it. In other words, this
"Presence" must be lived by us, if we wish to talk about it.
There is no miracle in that. We dont have to live with fear.


Majnun.

nameless
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hmmm..

Postby nameless » Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:15 am

majnun <<--I was just wondering why these ideas are
expressed by your person, separately, like no 1, 2, 3, etc.-->>

<<--The concept of inner unification (tauhid, valley 4) is
redefined by the Bahai scriptures. However we, humans,
have this tendency to separate, to split concepts and
ideas into tiny separate parts.-->>

#1. i have intended not to get into the validity of beliefs. so i will let this pass. but if u may, then do tell me what u mean by 'splitting concepts and ideas' here. what u imply by a 'concept' or an 'idea', and what u imply by its 'splitting into parts'. that way v might drift away from religious belief to our own understanding and thence v may proceed to improve my understanding. :-)


<<--Could you explain this "persecution" you mentioned above,
what you feel about this?-->>

#2. pain. anger. among other things.

<<-- It seems obvious that you read "the book of certitude" if i get the right picture from "stars against the sun".-->>

#3. no.


<<--The Tao is a very nice and profound text, like so many,
like some Gibran philosophy, or more profound still.
The mental images produced by the Tao, to my
mind, are very relaxing, and they open some avenues
wich normally were somewhat blocked for me.-->>

<<--Another factor for this is the accuracy of availuable translations.

I looked at a manuscript of the Tao (avail on the internet) and i wondered
how could we translate all these signs into our western syntaxic languages ? And doing it so that we do not includes our projections into the translations.-->>

#4. it was the (different) interpretations, besides the profoundness, that caught my eye. it really could be the case of the elephant and the blind men.

<<--What is garanteed by the Messenger is that most
of the mental maelström we may live in will be erased
by the therapeutic application of each valley. It is
possible after that, that mental enumeration or
intellectualisation (rhetoric thinking) may seems
unnecessary to enjoy one's life.-->>

#5. that v have a concept of valleys, stages, or stations: does that imply 'splitting' of some sort(?)

baha'i warrior <<--i really wish when people heard about the baha'i faith, they would take a long time investigating it, for their own sakes (as their own religions instruct them too). this is not a play thing; it is real. you will die and will have to answer to God!! your limbs will quake in fear. is it not better to come prepared? in case Baha'u'llah is a Messenger of God, i would do much investigation -->>

#6. agreed. :-)

majnun
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Postby majnun » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:23 pm

The explanations of the valleys describes many brain zones (valleys, cities, etc)
and how they work individually. Unification is a simple procedure that shows us how to connect them all together. I cannot explain much further but if you ever
read the valleys, the messenger show the 3 main separated zones and how to
unite them, before exploring other brain zones (imagination and the dream zone) until
you are ready to face what is inscribed onto what we used to label : the subconcious mind.

The fact is that when we become concious of what was subconcious, it is not subconcious anymore, it becomes a part of our conscience. This transfer of images from our past into our conscience is just a small step of the experience. If we stay at this level for a while, we will wish naturally to get out of our personal cage. In mystic term, to move behond the barrier of our subconcious mind. There is no magic in this procedure.

The Tao
It is true there are so many versions. There is a site that collects most of them
in 3 langages. I like the Arthur Waley version, it has a very long introduction,
but many other versions, not always from England, are also quite enjoyable.

A valley, a stage, a station, it means an inner brain zone of you that you explore (travel into).
The word “maqam” means a level, a station, but may also mean : context.

nameless
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yeah...

Postby nameless » Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:25 am

<<--The fact is that when we become concious of what was subconcious, it is not subconcious anymore, it becomes a part of our conscience. This transfer of images from our past into our conscience is just a small step of the experience. If we stay at this level for a while, we will wish naturally to get out of our personal cage. In mystic term, to move behond the barrier of our subconcious mind. There is no magic in this procedure.-->>

#1. and to do that, may it be that v need neither a messenger nor a revelation(?)

Guest

Postby Guest » Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:12 pm

It is not very complicated
If you go trough the valleys
you will know what i mean.

nameless
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:25 am

huh

Postby nameless » Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:50 pm

<<--It is not very complicated-->>

#1. when did *i* say anything is complicated. and what is this 'it' which is not very complicated.

<<--If you go trough the valleys-->>

#2. are u talking about the text of the book of valleys(?) or actually wading through those valleys

<<--you will know what i mean.-->>

#3. i am very dumb: so why dont u tell me what u mean :-)

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:30 pm

nameless, I'm just wondering what it is (if anything) that keeps you from accepting the Baha'i Faith i.e. some laws, principles, etc.?

you know, being a Baha'i, as I read the Koran I see many similarities between it and the Writings. I don't know if for someone coming from a Muslim background (I didn't) the Writings seem radically different from Muhammad's Writings, but if you read the Bab's Writings, especially, you will probably get a very strong Koranic feeling.

nameless
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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:25 am

well...

Postby nameless » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:41 am

<<--nameless, I'm just wondering what it is (if anything) that keeps you from accepting the Baha'i Faith i.e. some laws, principles, etc.?-->>

#1. yes, there are things. if u would like i can say a few things, but i do not want u to think i am attacking bahaism. i have already said before i have no problems with theists and atheists alike, as long as they believe in 'live and let live'. ofcourse, interpretating that is another thing altogether.

<<--you know, being a Baha'i, as I read the Koran I see many similarities between it and the Writings. I don't know if for someone coming from a Muslim background (I didn't) the Writings seem radically different from Muhammad's Writings, but if you read the Bab's Writings, especially, you will probably get a very strong Koranic feeling.-->>

#2. well, i want to go through bayan, but it seems its text is scarcely available online. as for bahaullah's work: i have read a bit of his works and a bit of muhammad's writings, and it seems to me the styles are different, and ofcourse: many other things. :-)

majnun
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just a tought

Postby majnun » Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:27 pm

Dear nameless friend;

why do you think so much ?

MJ.

nameless
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hmmm...

Postby nameless » Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:16 pm

<<--why do you think so much ?-->>

#1. so that when somebody tells me 'nameless, THINK', i dont come out blank :p

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:40 pm

nameless, i agree with 'live and let live.' but if one is hit by a car and his life is ended early, is he really dead? or will he be more alive than ever, especially because he (in this hypothetical situation) was a firm believer in God and His Manifestation, and lived a holy and chaste life? which is better, a few stakes and wine in this life, or everlasting life and pleasure in the worlds to come? (the pleasures in this life are a hint to what is waiting in the next...)

nameless
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:25 am

hmmm...

Postby nameless » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:19 am

<<--nameless, i agree with 'live and let live.' but if one is hit by a car and his life is ended early, is he really dead? or will he be more alive than ever, especially because he (in this hypothetical situation) was a firm believer in God and His Manifestation, and lived a holy and chaste life?-->>

#1. indeed, if somebody earns the nearness of god, secure from its wrath, dwelling in eternal bliss: that surely would be the supreme achievement. but like i have said before: i do not see how rituals and empty faith can have precedence over kindness and deeds. :-)

<<--which is better, a few stakes and wine in this life, or everlasting life and pleasure in the worlds to come? (the pleasures in this life are a hint to what is waiting in the next...)-->>

#2. i do not indulge in wine in this world, and i do not think pleasures of the next world will include big breasted virgins waiting for me. :oops: yes, i am intrigued by what might be the nature of the life in hereafter: i do not think there will be relations in the hereafter: but i am not god, so to find out i will have to wait till u get into paradise and yell out to me (below in hell): 'hey nameless, its like so and so here....' :-)

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:08 pm

nameless, let me assure you: think about being fed grapes by a room full of nice, young virgins (etc.) awaits us. however, this symbol of virgins is just imagery that is used in this world to let us know about how good it's going to be in the next. There is a story of Baha'u'llah, where a gardener wanted to see the next world. Baha'u'llah showed the gardener a glimpse of the next world between His fingers, and the gardener immediately after cut his own throat. if we say what awaited in the next world, probably all of us would kill ourselves. It is that good. we would leave the virgin, the material virgin, that is.

things like "hell-fire" are just used to signify in human terms how bad the wrath of God will be in the next world, and virgins, celestial wine, etc., are used to show how good and pleasurable the next world will be.

Of course, how much we experience "hell-fire" and pleasure in the next world depends on how bad/good we do in this life. If you play by God's rules and submit to His Will, He will give you a very good station in the next. He says: This is the way for salvation. It’s up to you. You have free will and can choose (a decision that will last you not only a lifetime, but for eternity).

And, again, you said:

i do not see how rituals and empty faith can have precedence over kindness and deeds.


I agree with you. And so would other Baha'is. Why did 'Abdu'l-Baha give away His robes, cloaks, fancy carpets, and even pants, to the poor, that the believers gave Him? Why did He insist on tending to the poor and sick, even when they were bitter enemies of the Faith? Where is the "empty faith" there? Does not Faith involve showing kindness to God's creatures? Prayers that you say, for instance, are for your own spiritual development. The minimum is two prayers a day, for the Baha’i. So if you don't like "ritual," you can say two short prayers (including your Obligatory prayer...the short one if you like) and be kind all day. It is really for your own benefit. "Blind faith" to me is blindly having Faith in either a religion or my own animal desires (i.e. desires for power, "independence," etc.) The Baha'i Faith is different, and it is not only about personal Faith, but also transforming society. How can society function fully without the belief in God? Baha'u'llah even warns us in "Gleanings" not to trust anyone who does not believe in God. Humanity will have to go through a lot of suffering, denial, and "people kill in the name of religion"'s, and life’s a bitch and then you die’s. But eventually (as we see now) they will begin to realize that their system doesn't work and they will turn to the Faith, a system based on principles indispensable for world unity and a fully functioning civilization.

i hope i'm leading you in the right direction :)

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Re: hmmm...

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:14 pm

nameless wrote:but i am not god, so to find out i will have to wait till u get into paradise and yell out to me (below in hell): 'hey nameless, its like so and so here....' :-)


yes, and maybe on occasion i will set out on a journey to see you. but first i'll have to get a good night's sleep and pack a couple extra t-shirts and shorts :) . well actually i would hope that you be above me, so at least before you make an important decision (either way), i would suggest you thoroughly read the Writings... remember, virgins in this world, or virgins in the next. you decide...

nameless
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ummm...

Postby nameless » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:04 pm

<<--nameless, let me assure you: think about being fed grapes by a room full of nice, young virgins (etc.) awaits us. however, this symbol of virgins is just imagery that is used in this world to let us know about how good it's going to be in the next.-->>

<<--things like "hell-fire" are just used to signify in human terms how bad the wrath of God will be in the next world, and virgins, celestial wine, etc., are used to show how good and pleasurable the next world will be.-->>

#1. the only thing that such a setup would symolise would be sexuality. ofcourse, unless the virgins are there only for the sake of feeding grapes. :oops:

<<--There is a story of Baha'u'llah, where a gardener wanted to see the next world. Baha'u'llah showed the gardener a glimpse of the next world between His fingers, and the gardener immediately after cut his own throat.-->>

#2. i wonder whether bahaullah showed the gardener just the next world or actually showed the gardener himself present in the next world. it would be a mighty hasty thing to do if that was not the case. :-S

<<--I agree with you. And so would other Baha'is....
...But eventually (as we see now) they will begin to realize that their system doesn't work and they will turn to the Faith, a system based on principles indispensable for world unity and a fully functioning civilization. -->>

#3. u are missing my point. if there are 2 persons: a believer and a non-believer. then even if the non-believer has led a more noble life than the believer, the non-believer will be led to hell and the believer to heaven. ofcourse, there will be some variations according to faith, but ultimately the believer is to attain paradise, and the non-believer is forever doomed. :-((

<<--i hope i'm leading you in the right direction-->>

#4. i hope too. :-) but i do believe each of us will have to bear our own cross, so ultimately it is where v leads ourselves too. :-)

<<--yes, on occasion i will set out on a journey to see you. but first i'll have to get a good night's sleep and pack a couple extra t-shirts and shorts Smile . well actually i would hope that you be above me,-->>

#5. awww! thats really touching. but i do believe 'god' is wise enough to know what each of us deserves. and much as we may hope good for 1 another, it really would be what v have earned. but hey, if u remember me do yell out what heaven is like. :p

<<--so at least before you make an important decision (either way), i would suggest you thoroughly read the Writings... remember, virgins in this world, or virgins in the next. you decide...-->>

#6. hmmm. well, i will read the writings to get better understanding. :-)

#7. i am not really interested in material world. there be no end to desires, so it is better not to desire. but yes, there are some negative emotions which i cannot master, and they in turn give rise to others, so it really is not so easy for me personally.

#8. even then, i do not wish for paradise for a reason other than i wish to avoid hell. much the sinner and ungodly person i am, i do fear god and i do fear its hell. but most of all, if i do deeds, it is without any motives, and if i uphold a ritual it is because god is truly worthy of worship, and god is not in need of it.

#9. i know thats contradicting my earlier assertion that i hold god unworthy of worship, but i cannot uphold the above (positive) sentiments about god most of the times. :-S

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:16 pm

#3. u are missing my point. if there are 2 persons: a believer and a non-believer. then even if the non-believer has led a more noble life than the believer, the non-believer will be led to hell and the believer to heaven. ofcourse, there will be some variations according to faith, but ultimately the believer is to attain paradise, and the non-believer is forever doomed.


i thought we already covered this. no, that is wrong. if i call myself a "baha'i" and on one fine day i go on a killing spree in a mall, go into hiding, go to another town and do the same.... am i going to be in heaven and mother teresa in hell just because i called myself a "baha'i"?

if a christian goes throughout life giving to the poor and living a selfless life, is he gonna be south of me in the next world, just because i called myself a baha'i?

is that all that there is to it? calling oneself a baha'i?

ask yourself those questions, and answer them honestly. (hint: you may get a good idea by reading some of the Writings on this topic)


#2. i wonder whether bahaullah showed the gardener just the next world or actually showed the gardener himself present in the next world. it would be a mighty hasty thing to do if that was not the case. :-S


the gardener saw himself in the next world. even though he could do good deeds in this life, it looked so good that he probably didnt want to take the risk and said "hey--this is a hell of a lot better than what i got in this moral life, so ill go kill myself." probably something like that

#8. even then, i do not wish for paradise for a reason other than i wish to avoid hell. much the sinner and ungodly person i am, i do fear god and i do fear its hell. but most of all, if i do deeds, it is without any motives, and if i uphold a ritual it is because god is truly worthy of worship, and god is not in need of it.


i dont think you should call yourself that. only God can judge that. he is the better judge than you (and that can be a good thing sometimes).

if you were such a bad person for one thing you wouldnt be studying religion

#7. i am not really interested in material world. there be no end to desires, so it is better not to desire. but yes, there are some negative emotions which i cannot master, and they in turn give rise to others, so it really is not so easy for me personally.


we all have our shortcomings but the important thing is to try to work on them, and to bring ourselves to account at the end of every day

janine

new religion

Postby janine » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:13 pm

Some thoughts:

Baha'u'llah speaks about His suffering not because He wants to complain, but He wants us to understand something, namely the station of a Manifestation of God.

Baha'u'llah did suffer more than most people. First of all, He is a very special being, created for a special purpose. Whether you accept that or not, does not matter. But to make it more understandable for you, let me try to get that to a more human level, a level we might understand.

Suppose that you had the absolute cure for all the sicknesses that strike humanity. It has been proven to you that this cure you have is the absolute cure. You write to the pharmaceutical leaders, ministers of health etc. And nobody, nobody listens, or even looks a bit further, at least wants to examine it. Yes, there is a doctor somewhere in a hospital who like you is convinced it works. But even he cannot sway those in power to accept your cure and manufacture it.

However, more people in your surroundings accept your cure and start to use it and say it works. Those people are not people in enough power to threaten the pharmaceutical companies, or pursuade the health boards and ministers of health. But these start to feel the pressure of public opinions. In short, you are in danger of getting too influential on the public opinion. These people feel their authority and positions of power threatened, and so influence the judicial powers and so you are first thrown in jail, but because your family knows too many people of influence, you cannot be killed because your death would become known and would cause a huge outcry.

So you are beaten in jail, a dark jail chained to many others, by chains which are so heavy that they cause a lot of wounds and you have to sit in your own dirt and that of others and you hardly get anything to eat let alone drink. All that time you do not know whether tomorrow you will be alive or not.

then they take you out but ban you with your family, to a neighbouring country. They have taken away all your possessions, you are ordered to leave and leave on foot. You and your family, with two young children, have to go on foot through the mountains, without sufficient time to pack, so even food gets scarce and you have to feed your children by giving them a handful of meal.

You arrive in the other country and gradually you built up a new life, live in relative ease. But you keep reminding people of this cure and trying to find people who are willing to implement it on a bigger scale than you just doling it out. The people in power get afraid again because you gain again the public opinion. So they ban you again. Finally you end up in a prison, locked away from your family, in solitary confinement, nobody, not even your family, is allowed to see you. You receive the abuse and beatings of the guards. Your son will have rheumatism all his life because he had to sleep for a long time on a marble table in an unused mortuary, as there was no other place he could afford to stay.

On top of that, you receive the abuse and being poisoned by a half brother, someone much younger than you, whom you took care of when he was very young and helped him financially and in all kinds of other ways. This person tries to take the credit for your cure, to the extend that he tries to poison you at some point. He is telling all kinds of lies about you, and one point it got all so bad, and created so much quarrels in the people around you that you decided to go away so as that people would stop at least quarreling. So of you go to the mountains, live like a hermit, have hardly anything to eat and sleep in caves.

More and more people start to believe you. They also are frequently tormented, put in jail and are killed. You write to all the leaders in the world, you get no hearing. Yet your cure does work. It can heal all illnesses. And instead of what you deserve, you get abuse, which you do not mind so much, but what does get at you, what grieves you most, is seeing the continued suffering in the world and knowing taht it is not necessary.

And this is but a tip of the iceberg.... Baha'u'llah did not mind the suffering at all. He felt it, on a human level, like your body can feel pain and hunger. But if the pain and hunger is a result because you want to achieve something (hunger for example because you have a medical examination i the morning which requires you not to eat for 8 hours before the examination) you can ignore the hunger and pain. You feel it but you do not mind it that much.
Baha'u'llah wants to make clear to the world that the world should not treat a Manifestation of God thus. This may make no sense to you now, with the understanding you have fo the world.

However, suppose that your understanding is like my understanding of why I had to brush my teeth regularly was about 20 years ago. I did not understand it. I believed that my teeth were not susceptible to the process of decay. Ten years later I discovered that despite my belief, they were not..... we can make errors in judgement. We do not know everything, though at a certain point we may be sure of one thing.

You may not see the need of why we have to understand more o fthe station of a Manifestation of God. But it may be that in a couple of years or after you have died, you may find out why it is important that we understand more of the station of a Manifestation of God. Baha'u'llah tells us of how He suffered, not to complain, but to make clear that human beings are doing something in their arrogance of which they do not know the consequences. The consequences of not welcoming Him, not acknowledging His authority, made the world more of a mess as it already is. You say we need a Manifestation of God now. No. What we see are the results of so many eras of people not listening to a Manifestation of God, and are the results of the denial of the authority of the latest Manifestation of God. We ask God for help in our plight. God obliges, sends us a being with a message that can heal and help us, but what do we do? We are sceptical, then get furious and try to silence that being.

And then we complain more and tell one another that God has forgotten us or does not exist, because the world is in a greater mess than ever before.
A wise person likes prevention. I think God is very wise. I think He sent what was necessary to prevent the mess we see today. It did not stop us, we did not listen, so what would a wise person do, who understands how the human mind works? Warning does not help, experience may. We burnt our behinds, and now we have to sit on the blisters. I did not look after my teeth well because they were healthy and I thought they were alwasy going to be that way, despite what science and specialists told me. As a result, I have now bad teeth and had to fork out a lot of money to rescue whatever is left of them.
there is still a way back for the world.

As to others who have divined systems and philosophies for peace: the fact that these did not take off majorly means that most of humanity was not ripe for that wisdom. People of insight always were able to see further than most people with regard to what is based in reality and what is not.

In the grand scheme of things, our time on earth means nothing. The material world, the world of matter I should say, disappears and dissolves all the time. The body will cease to function and we say a person has died. Those with a bigger vision realise that this is not the end of life or of that person. This is but a stage in the development of the soul. We think it is a very important part, and in some ways it is, in others it isn't. We are like babies in the womb, we have no clue why we are developing all these things like eyes and ears and arms and legs. We think the womb is the only world and we will stay in it forever, suppose that we could have analytical thought like that in the womb. The womb contracts to force the baby out. Why is that if the baby would be able to decide himself to go out or stay in? The baby needs to be forced out otherwise it would not do it by itself, as the life in the womb is the only one it knows and does not realise there is a world outside the womb.

There are many stages in the evolvement of the soul, life on earth is but one of them. we do not cease to exist after death, individually, though I cannot scientifically prove that. Spiritual life is more important than physical life, though we may think that physical life is more important. We only cling to life, physical life that is, because we need that clinging to get through life here, to fulfill the first stage in the development of the soul. If the body did not have such a fear of dying, i don;t think any human being would be here nowadays ;o)

Hope this answers some of your questions. The best thing to do is to read the Bahai books yourself though, especially the writings of Baha'u'llah as I can only give you what I have understood. When you read the writings yourself, all the layers of your understanding are addressed and you will gain far more information than I am able to give you.

much love,

janine


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