Picture of Bahá´u´lláh online. What does UHJ say about this?

All research or scholarship questions
Guilherme
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:12 am

Picture of Bahá´u´lláh online. What does UHJ say about this?

Postby Guilherme » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:43 pm

hello All!!

I´ve heard about that its not allowed to 'spread' the picture of Bahá´u´lláh, and the unique photo that exists, is in Haifa - Mount Carmel. But, this picture of Him is being passed through Internet, in important Sites that have many visits every day.

So, is this right? If not ... What says the UHJ about it? Thanks!

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:50 pm

http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_website_photo_bahaullah


Photograph of Baha'u'llah on Website

by Universal House of Justice

1999

Dear Mr. Anthony David,

Your email message of 4 September 1999 to the Universal House of Justice concerning the contents of the Web site ... has been referred to our Office for response.

In one of His epistles, Abdu'l-Bahá, the son of Bahá'u'lláh, wrote that two photographs of Bahá'u'lláh were taken, both in Adrianople, Turkey, each in a different pose. There are copies of both pictures at the Bahá'í World Centre and one of these is displayed in the International Archives where it is viewed by Bahá'í pilgrims. The image reproduced on the Web site in question seems to be a poor reproduction of one of these photographs.

For Bahá'ís, the photograph of Bahá'u'lláh is very precious and it should not only be viewed but also handled with due reverence and respect, which is not the case here. Thus, it is indeed disturbing to Bahá'ís to have the image of Bahá'u'lláh treated in such a disrespectful way. However, as the creator of the site is not a Bahá'í, there is little, if anything, that can be done to address this matter. We hope these comments have been of assistance.

Sincerely,

Office of Public Information

antoinette

Picture of Baha'u'llah

Postby antoinette » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:25 pm



From what I understand is that the picrure of Baha'u'llah shouldn't be shown . As a Baha'i I know and understand that we are NOT to worship Baha'u'llah. It is the word of God that is important. Baha'u'llah is the messenger.

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Re: Picture of Baha'u'llah

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:45 pm

antoinette wrote:From what I understand is that the picrure of Baha'u'llah shouldn't be shown . As a Baha'i I know and understand that we are NOT to worship Baha'u'llah. It is the word of God that is important. Baha'u'llah is the messenger.

http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_photographs_bahaullah_miller

UHJ:

"It is apparent in letters written on behalf of the Guardian that he did not approve the publication of any photograph of Bahá'u'lláh, and regarded such publication to be offensive to religious feeling. Nor did he approve that the photograph be exposed openly to the public, even in Bahá'í homes. Only on special occasions did he permit the photograph to be displayed, and then he urged that it be done with the utmost reverence."


Also:


"The portraits of the Bab and Bahá'u'lláh should be shown infrequently and on very special occasions, such as a special observance connected with an event intimately associated with the Forerunner or Founder of our Faith.

(From a letter dated 12 July 1973 written by the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Panama)


And:


"It would be good to advise the young Persian believer who has this picture that, while we do not wish to suggest that he should remove the photograph from his book, it would be inappropriate for him to show it to others in a casual manner. As you know, the photograph of Bahá'u'lláh is very precious and it should be handled with due reverence and respect."
(From a letter dated 7 February 1972 written by the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer)

Guilherme
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:12 am

Postby Guilherme » Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:16 pm

I understood when was said that nothing almost nothing can be done since the autor of the site isnt a bahai. A sites i´ve seen i think was from a bahai, probably he dont know about it...the site contains not bad about the bahai faith...but I think we must obey the desire of Bab and Baha´u´llah what has been said about. Not even the bahai official site have this pictures..so must have a reason...Thanks!

majnun
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:56 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

a picture in a picture

Postby majnun » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:34 am

A picture is only a picture.
Relations with mental pictures is explained
in Valley no 2, for those able to understand
it's depht.

The reserve toward looking at the Messenger's
only availuable photograph may be linked with
the bahai philosophic concept of not to become simply
an idolater of a photo, but to put His message in action.

This photography of Baha'u'llah was taken when he
was about 51 years old. The same day, a photograph
of Abdul Baha was also taken, in the same chair, beside
the same table on his right hand side.

I have this photograph at home, of a good image quality.
I look at it sometimes. What crime is there to look at the
person who, with his extraordinary message, made so good
things for you ? I don't see any dilemma in that.

A older bahai told me once we should not show Baha'u'llah's
picture to anybody, because many tourists bring their money's
to Haifa, just for that reason, to see Baha'u'llah's picture.
Ain't that funny ?

It is also a simple fact that most people who simply look
at the photo of young Abdul Baha in articles or books that
gives a breif description of the Bahai formation, will not go
further than that in their personal exploration. It is a fact of
life.

a comparison
You may know many people who hang a portrait of Jesus or
a photo of the pope somewhere. Does this decoration on a wall
makes them people who practice what they aim, better humans, or do they just use a portrait to pretend something ? Oh, i dunno.

Personally, I would not expose a photograph of Abdul Baha
or of his famous father in my living-room, like so many of
my bahai friends do. Some people live for the show, and
some are explorers. Theese ones look at the light of the sun only,
and do not pay attention to the colored globes.

Majnun.
.

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Re: a picture in a picture

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:18 pm

majnun wrote:A picture is only a picture.


according to the UHJ that is wrong, and if you are a Baha'i the UHJ says that the picture of Baha'u'llah is not only a picture, it is something very sacred and should therefore be treated w/the utmost respect. please dont form opinions that contradict that of the House, majnun. we are entitled to our own opinions as long as they dont contradict the position of our faith

majnun
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:56 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Postby majnun » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:13 pm

Oh, please dont feel spiked dear friend.
To me it is only a picture, i dont even show
it to nobody, it stays in my drawer. I wont expose
it in my living room either.

My optic view is the same as the UHJ.
We dont use this picture as a promotional tool,
and we focus more on the message than on the Messenger.

For most of my bahai friends, it is a sort of taboo subject.
I mean they are reluctant to look at the picture of the Messenger.
Could you explain me why ? Where is the crime ?

And why should we keep it as a sacred secrets ?
The valuable secrets are semi-hidden in our scriptures,
and quite visible to those who search seriously.

The Bahai writings are the first ones that help
men to get out of their personal cages and to
liberate them of any blurred visions.

And what do you mean by the term "sacred" ?

I remember a line by Dylan :
today nothing much is really sacred.

Majnun.

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:12 am

majnun wrote:For most of my bahai friends, it is a sort of taboo subject. I mean they are reluctant to look at the picture of the Messenger. Could you explain me why ? Where is the crime ?


first you obey the House, then you ask questions

"taboo" isn't the right word. we have to approach that picture with the utmost reverence. why? because it is the picture of the Man that the world has been waiting for many thousands of years, that's why! is that not enough, to show respect to the picture of a Man that is the closest thing this world has seen to God Himself?

majnun wrote:I remember a line by Dylan :
today nothing much is really sacred.


and here is a quote from me: today some things are sacred. see? i'm a much better philosopher than him :lol:

Guest

Postby Guest » Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:09 pm

Sorry, i obey to my conscience first.
The rest, maybe another day.

But to do this, you must first have a conscience.

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:34 pm

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, i obey to my conscience first.
The rest, maybe another day.

But to do this, you must first have a conscience.


Majnun...your conscience comes before guidance from the House? No one is saying it is illegal for you to keep the picture of Baha'u'llah. As a Baha'i, Majnun, if you believe in 'Abdu'l-Baha, and that the UHJ is infallible in their decisions, then I don't see any reason why your "conscience" should conflict with that of the House, that is, if you are a true Baha'i.

tipnum
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:17 pm

Postby tipnum » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:24 pm

A older bahai told me once we should not show Baha'u'llah's
picture to anybody, because many tourists bring their money's
to Haifa, just for that reason, to see Baha'u'llah's picture.
Ain't that funny ?


Tourists aren't allowed to see the picture, only Baha'is on pilgrimage get to see it. And there is a lot more to pilgrimage than looking at the picture.

Hasan
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:03 am
Location: Lima - Perú
Contact:

Postby Hasan » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:42 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote: and that the UHJ is infallible in their decisions, then I don't see any reason why your "conscience" should conflict with that of the House, that is, if you are a true Baha'i.


it is not about infallibility, it is about respect, obedience is not about infallibility but also about respect.

majnun
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:56 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Who is Baha'u'llah ?

Postby majnun » Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:07 pm

Dear warrior friend:

Does not the scripture say: think by yourself ?
See with your own eyes instead of the eyes of others?

The writings are an educative course made to develop
our conscience, to guide this developpement.
Why should we emprison our "selves" with so many
rules ? If our conscience is cleaned and in developpement,
it shoud give us answers quickly.

Should i do a test, to put the famous photo on the net
and see if the UHJ eject my good person for heresy or
blashemy ? The quality of the photo of Baha'u'llah is
the same as the one of Abdul Baha, taken on the same
day, in the same "studio", near the same table. If a photograph
is kept as a secret simply to bring moneys to Haifa, then
it is idolatry. Abdul Baha did not wish to be photographed
when he came in England at first, but he aggreed to be,
because this is how the world functions imrûz (to-day).


Majnun.

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:29 pm

Majnun,

Synopsis and Codification of the Laws and Ordinances of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas

3. Miscellaneous Exhortations:

    xi. To be absolutely submissive to the Will of God

    xii. Not to stir up mischief



Being an independent thinker is good when it is in line with Baha'i values, while "independent" thinking with utter disregard for what the Writings say about a topic and blatantly forming an opinion that contradicts it is wrong. This is a concept we have to learn. "We" have to be exponents of God's word, not of our decadent culture which glorifies things like rebellion against central figures in the name of independence and being good citizens. We should learn to submit ourselves to His Will. What good is it being an independent thinker if it leads you to the "scourge and wrath of God" in the next life? Will God say, "I applaud you for being an independent thinker even in situations where you disagreed with the UHJ"?

We must realize that true independence is in utter submission to God and renouncing our own animal natures. It is surely difficult for us who are born in a society that holds nothing sacred, but we should be, according to the beloved Guardian, "immovable in our point of view."

I would hope that you maybe think this over Majnun, for your own good that is. I tell you this as a brother.


—Warrior

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:34 pm

Hasan wrote:
Baha'i Warrior wrote: and that the UHJ is infallible in their decisions, then I don't see any reason why your "conscience" should conflict with that of the House, that is, if you are a true Baha'i.


it is not about infallibility, it is about respect, obedience is not about infallibility but also about respect.


We should have respect for them because they are infallible (i.e. they make infallible decisions and whatever they say is pretty much whatever God says).

We can have "respect" for a professor, say, but these types of respect are different, although you can have a combination of both in regard to the UHJ. This is my understanding.


—Warrior

majnun
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:56 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Postby majnun » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:17 am

...

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:17 pm

majnun wrote:Finally, there is no "God" at all.



...i hope you are joking :?:

Hasan
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:03 am
Location: Lima - Perú
Contact:

Postby Hasan » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:32 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:We should have respect for them because they are infallible (i.e. they make infallible decisions and whatever they say is pretty much whatever God says)


Dear warrior, Is it strong to base your obedience on infallibility (in all they say) rather the authority Bahá'u'lláh gave to them? This could collapse if, somebody demonstrate they are not. Remember that even the Guardian said he is not infallible everything.

So, I believe in infallibility, but a restrictive one. Have you read infallible institutions?

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:02 pm

Hasan-

Remember that even the Guardian said he is not infallible everything.


of course, i didnt think we were talking about physics. we are talking about matters in regard to the Faith

of course, Shoghi Effendi never said anything that was wrong, even if it didnt have to do with the Faith. He wouldnt speak of anything he didnt know about. He is protected by God, as is the UHJ. do you really think God would let the beloved Guardian or the UHJ to say something wrong, even if it was something outside the faith? you dont need to answer, though, because this is a whole different topic. (And yes, of course i knew Shoghi Effendi said that he was not infallible in everything, but again, that's beside the point. My whole point was that you must obey the UHJ and that they will not say something wrong because in the first place they wouldnt even speak of things that didnt have to do with the Faith at all.)

:arrow: so how about we stay on topic

majnun
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:56 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

...

Postby majnun » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:48 pm

...

Hasan
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:03 am
Location: Lima - Perú
Contact:

Postby Hasan » Sat Dec 10, 2005 2:44 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote: My whole point was that you must obey the UHJ and that they will not say something wrong because in the first place they wouldnt even speak of things that didnt have to do with the Faith at all.)


I see your point (obedience) - who is mine also, but the reason and the point we use are different. I think obedience in the Administrative Order is not based on infallibility. For me, “everything” the House speaks is NOT infallible; it is clear in the writings. The House will develop in three main powers (judicial, executive and legislative), I think only the legislative function is covered by infallibility, I understand we disagree on this, but it is another topic anyway.

I need to made it clear before close the issue.

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:06 am

i never disagreed with you on anything

i'm just saying, if the Lesser Covenant protects the House from being wrong in one thing, it might also protect them from saying stuff they dont know about or saying something wrong even if it is outside their legislative function.

im not basing this on the Writings, im just using some logic though. i think they are infallible enough to say the right thing always, and thus never be wrong in whatever they say. do you think God (or Baha'u'llah) would let the UHJ say something wrong?

anyway, i dont have a quote to back that up so you dont need to state the obvious again, im just giving my opinion, which i think is reasonable. (has the UHJ ever said something that was wrong as of yet?)

but as a baha'i i respect the UHJ b/c 1. they have been appointed 2. they are infallible, etc. it is really an honor to have a UHJ, this is unlike any religion in the past

Hasan
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:03 am
Location: Lima - Perú
Contact:

Postby Hasan » Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:06 pm

dear warrior, the discussion on infallibility continues in this topic:
http://bahai-library.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?p=2890#2890

shm
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:40 pm

Postby shm » Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:11 pm

Im just wondering

Is a Bahai allowed to look at Bahaullah's picture outside of the archives in Haifa???
The picture of Bahaullah can be found on the internet, is a Bahai allowed to look at it??

I dont mean to answer my question, but Im guessing that we are allowed to look at it cuz apparently its allowed to place Bahaullah's picture as well as the the Bab's picture on special occasions, so Im guessing its not forbidden to look at Bahaullah's picture.

Also one more question, if we are allowed to display Bahaullah picture on special occasions, how come they are never displayed???

Jonah
Site Admin
Posts: 407
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:25 pm
Location: St Catharines, Ontario (near Niagara Falls)
Contact:

Postby Jonah » Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:55 pm

We're allowed to look at it, yes, but not distribute it or share it. At one point I was sharing it privately and was told by a liaison to the NSA that, if I continued to do so, my "administrative rights" would be in jeopardy.

-Jonah


Return to “Discussion”