Proof from the Quran?

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Proof from the Quran?

Postby Guest » Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:17 pm

Can any body in this forum care to give me the most significant profesies from the Quran about the coming of Bahaullah?
Thanx

Joan Jensen

Proofs from the Quran

Postby Joan Jensen » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:15 am

There is a web site that deals with this subject. Hope you find it useful!
Warmly
Joan Jensen
J-L-Jensen@comcast.net

http://www.bci.org/islam-bahai/

Hossein
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Postby Hossein » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:35 pm

Hi
This linked which Joan Jensen has informed us is so good that I do not know that you prefer to discuss with someone, or nor?

Hossein

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:04 pm

hey.

the most significant from my findings is in the Surah of Hud

specifically

11:120

120. All that We relate to thee of the stories of the apostles -- with it We make firm thy heart: in them there cometh to thee the Truth, as well as an exhortation and a message of remembrance to those who believe.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 11)



This line summerises the point of the Surah itself. and what other meaning could this POSSIBLY HAVE than that another messenger will come

keeping in mind that the entire Surah of Hud is story after story of Messenger whos people rejected them, and thus the people were lost

nameless
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ummm...

Postby nameless » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:40 pm

'120. All that We relate to thee of the stories of the apostles -- with it We make firm thy heart: in them there cometh to thee the Truth, as well as an exhortation and a message of remembrance to those who believe. '

#1. what tells u in that verse about another messenger. :-)

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:22 pm

if you read what i wrote after that you would see.

Have you read the Surah of Hud? it is story after story of Messengers, Saleh, Hud, Noah, that came unto the people, but the people rejected them. Consequently, the people suffered.

Again and again, Messenger after Messenger, rejected rejected rejected. the people were wrong.

now

120. All that We relate to thee of the stories of the apostles -- with it We make firm thy heart: in them there cometh to thee the Truth, as well as an exhortation and a message of remembrance to those who believe.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 11)


lets look at other translations


And all that we have related to thee of the histories of these Apostles,
is to confirm thy heart thereby. By these hath the truth reached thee, and a
monition and warning to those who believe.

(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 11 - Houd)

120 And all that We relate unto thee of the story of the messengers is in order that thereby We may make firm thy heart. And herein hath come unto thee the Truth and an exhortation and a reminder for believers.

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 11 - Hud)


exhortation to WHAT?

and rememberence? rememberence as seen through these translations is clearly to the impact of a warning, and rodwell even translates it as a warning

read the Surah of Hud for yourself, to show im not picking and choosing here

what else could this possibly refer to other than the coming another Messenger that the believers MUST accept

I have said this to many Muslims, and they always change the subject because they know they cant answer it. sometimes they will argue that it is speaking to the pagans of the time, warning and guiding them to accept Muhammad. but this is clearly untrue since it says

FOR THE BELIEVERS

120 And all that We relate unto thee of the story of the messengers is in order that thereby We may make firm thy heart. And herein hath come unto thee the Truth and an <b>exhortation</b> and a <b>reminder</b> for <b>believers</b>.

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 11 - Hud)

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:27 pm

also, and i say this as NOT as primary of a proof as the Surah of Hud proof as I have just shown,
in the Iqan Baha'u'llah explains that the Sun and the Moon are allegorical to Prophethood. this in mind, The Surah of the Sun (91, Al-Shams) is a revisit and reiteration what was shown in the Surah of Hud
Surah of the Sun is a very short Surah, only a page really, the first part talks about the Sun and the Moon following their course and coming, which we as Baha'i's can clearly link to the Resurrection of Manifestations and the renewal of Dispensations, and then the second part reminds us of the story of Saleh, and how He was rejected.

you know, without the Baha'i proof, this Surah would make no sense whatsoever, it would seem totally random, and it clearly had gone overlooked for a thousand years



Surah 91

Al Shams (The Sun)

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

1. By the Sun and his (glorious) splendor;
2. By the Moon as she follow him;
3. By the Day as it shows up (the Sun's) glory;
4. By the Night as it conceals it;
5. By the Firmament and its (wonderful) structure;
6. By the Earth and its (wide) expanse;
7. By the Soul, and the proportion and order Given to it;
8. And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right; --
9. Truly he succeeds that purifies it,
10. And he fails that corrupts it!
11. The Thamud (people) rejected (their prophet) through their inordinate wrongdoing.
12. Behold, the most wicked Man among them was deputed (for impiety).
13. But the messenger of Allah said to them: "It is a She-camel of Allah! and (bar her not from) having her drink!"
14. Then they rejected him (as a false prophet), and they hamstrung her. So their Lord, on account of their crime, obliterated their traces and made them equal (in destruction, High and low)!
15. And for Him is no fear of its consequences.

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:34 pm

and proof of the aftermath of that is quite clear in the Islamic History post Heroic Age of the faith
the caliphate ended, their lands divided, imperialized, corrupted, seized, exploited, war torn, etc etc, and all this,
all of the suffering, even up till today in Iraq is a result of their persecution of The Bab and Baha'u'llah, and the Martyrdom of The Bab

nameless
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well..

Postby nameless » Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:36 am

<<--but this is clearly untrue since it says

FOR THE BELIEVERS -->>

#1. in that case: how would u define 'believers'(?) those who have rejected bahaullah would not be included, would they(?) also, if 'believers' be muslims: in that case it would be precluding christians, jews, hindus, buddhists and others.

#2. also, the entire message of quran is for 'believers'. quran says those who disbelieve will not benefit in any way from the message. since it is widely accpeted that most of the population already believed in other gods, they would have been, by default, disbelievers, and as such out of quran's field of effect. :-)

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:46 pm

believers is used all over the Quran as the people of the Quran

which lasts throughout the Dispensation to the point of Resurrection in 1260

they can be believers at one time, and then go astray.

11:120 is the instruction to the believers as they are first confronted with the dillema of 1260

from then on what they are is up in the air

if they accept, then the rest of that surah speaks to them

121. Say to those who do not believe: "Do whatever ye can: we shall do our part;

122. "And wait ye! we too shall wait."

123. To Allah do belong the unseen (secrets) of the heavens and the earth, and to Him goeth back every affair (for decision): then worship Him, and put thy trust in Him: and thy Lord is not unmindful of aught that ye do.

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:02 pm

and no, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, and Hindus are not "believers" according to the Quran


62. Those who believe (in the Qur'án) and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, and who believe in Allah and the last day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2)


thus you see the differenciation

nameless
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ummm..

Postby nameless » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:40 am

#1. i know i should have asked this first up, but i assumed that this verse as a proof was ur own discovery; i mean u said it was ur finding. so is this proof ur finding and not a general bahai belief(?) :-)

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:58 pm

i said my finding was that this is the most significant, strongest proof from the Quran.

i have read many proofs, and read many books.

this i did not read in any book. i was taught this directly from Dr. Moojan Momen himself

it is possible i came across this proof before then, in his book, but overlooked it.

he told me to remember that the Surah of Hud ends with a warning.
i read the Surah again and again and couldnt believe how clear cut it was. from there ive been able to extrapolate that and compare it with the Surah of the Sun, etc.

now you raise a good question, at what point do we consider things to be general Baha'i belief and when not.

well, the Bahai community, at least not here in the west is too concerned with Quranic proofs...yet.

in Iran its so so, but in general the spiritual magnitude of the Dispensation is enough for peoples hearts and minds to override the necessity of proving progressive revelation through scriptural analysis and comparison.
in the days of the heroic age, Quranic proofs were name of the game among the early Bab'i's and Baha'i's, but as time progressed that sort of dimmed down.


so for this, what we can consider standard Baha'i Proof, id say look to the scholors of the faith. Dr Moojan Momen is in my opinion the most eminant Baha'i scholor out there, the former apprentice and litterary successor to Hasan Balyuzi, and has much prestige and respect even beyond the Bahai world. His speciality in study just happens to be Shia Islam and the Baha'i Faith. so if anyone sets the standard of Quranic proofs, etc, for the future, id say its him.

nameless
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yeah...

Postby nameless » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:16 pm

<<--i said my finding was that this is the most significant, strongest proof from the Quran.

i have read many proofs, and read many books.

this i did not read in any book. i was taught this directly from Dr. Moojan Momen himself

it is possible i came across this proof before then, in his book, but overlooked it-->>

#1. yes, indeed! i was not so sure about my assumption that it was ur own finding, and i am glad that i asked u about it. :-)

#2. next, i would like to say that it really is impressive that bahais have found in quran proof for bahaullah's claims, which bahaullah himself did never advance. though bahaullah says that earlier scriptures all talk about him, i have not come across this verse as 1 of his proofs.

<<--now you raise a good question, at what point do we consider things to be general Baha'i belief and when not.-->>

#3. well, if anything is contained in the scriptures i woul take that as bahai faith. so anything that was said by bahaullah would surely be taken as belonging to bahaism. and i think since following abdulbaha and shoghi effendi have been made compulsory, i guess their views would also be taken as bahai view.

<<--so for this, what we can consider standard Baha'i Proof...-->>

#3. now then, u have put me in a bind. if i try to challenge that proof, which far as i can see is not part of bahai faith (according to my understaning), i would still be challenging the understanding of a very eminent bahai scholar, and i know very well how believers look at a disbeliever who has the audacity to challenge their scholars.

#4. i think i will go ahead and take up this verse, but dont take this as a challenge to any bahai scholar, rather a feeble attempt to clear the doubts in my mind. :-)

#5. when u do quote 11:120, it might be well to quote a few other verses.

118. And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ.

Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled: Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.

And all we relate to you of the accounts of the messengers is to strengthen your heart therewith; and in this has come to you the truth and an admonition, and a reminder to the believers.

#6. so if u say that 'why does it say that it is a rememberance to believers?', then the answer would be: so that their hearts would be strengthened: by the fact that just as muhammad is being repudiated and they are being scoffed at, so too was the reaction towards earlier prophets and their followers.

#7. just like bahais were hopelessly outnumbered when bahaullah claimed to be amanifestation (and still are), likewise were the muslims hopelessly outnumbered when muhammad made his claim. during that time, allah reminded them through its book: lo! just as u are being ridiculed, so were those before u: look then at the end of the unjust, and be u of those who are firm in belief. :-)

<<--and no, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, and Hindus are not "believers" according to the Quran .-->>

#8. exactly. but bahaullah believed in all previous scriptures, and was a messenger to all humanity. but that verse is a reminder only to muslims, and would go against the very grain of bahaullah's message that all religions proclaim the truth. :-)

majnun
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Putting the message in the Active mode

Postby majnun » Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:23 pm

All this proofing is quite complex.
We should seek for things easyer to see.

An easy one is at the beginning of chapter 9,
where the bismillah is missing.

At this spot, 1235 verses have passed,
and on the first day of the 1236 year AH,
the Bab comes into this world. It is the birthdate of
the messenger, the Bab.

Further in the same chapter nine, on verse
1267, the text talks about the messenger that
was killed on that 1267th year (extinguish the light of Allah).

Also, find the 4 words Bab in the Quran (without prefix of suffix).
Then count the words Allah before and after that name.
You will get the precise dates of both revelations,
that is 1267 (1850 ad) and 1309 (1892 ad).

Simple as abc, for all the weak and stubborn minds who need proofs, before putting the message in ACTION.

Verse count of chapter 10 indicates the birthdate of
the messenger coming after Baha'u'llah. It is the birthdate
(AH) of prophet Raël (1946 ad) wich offers the same spiritual program,
the same spiritual steps as in the valleys, to begin with.

Majnun.

nameless
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well...

Postby nameless » Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:16 pm

<<--At this spot, 1235 verses have passed,
and on the first day of the 1236 year AH,
the Bab comes into this world. It is the birthdate of
the messenger, the Bab-->>

#1. between bab and bahaullah, there is an enormous amount of matter that needs addressing. just like there is after bahaullah's death. almost indentical schisms, with almost indentical results. so even if anything is proven about bab: it would say something only about 'he whom god shall manifest'. there still would be some resolving to do between 'glory of allah' and 'dawn of eternity', among other things regarding 'he whom god shall manifest'. :-)

#2. 1236 would make bab's birthdate fall in 1821. but 1819 is the year in which bab was born. also, bahaullah was born in 1817, and he is recorded as being 2 years elder to bab, which again brings u to 1819. so it is not 1236 but 1234 which seems to be the year of bab's birth (not according to me, but according to majority view: including bahais) :-)

#3. then i do not think the rest of numbers really come into play here. :-)

<<--Simple as abc, for all the weak and stubborn minds who need proofs, before putting the message in ACTION.-->>

#4. so ur strong, receptive mind without need of proofs might need to find some other proof for my weak, stubborn mind. :-(

<<--Verse count of chapter 10 indicates the birthdate of
the messenger coming after Baha'u'llah. It is the birthdate
(AH) of prophet Raël (1946 ad) wich offers the same spiritual program,
the same spiritual steps as in the valleys, to begin with.-->>

#5. i am not too sure either of bab or 'whom god shall manifest' will fancy prophet rael's message too much. ;)

#5. any way, i think very shortly i wont be around on this forum, so i would like to say that i have had a nice time talking to all of u here. :-)

majnun
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Postby majnun » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:32 am

well, technically the bismillah is missing
before the 1236th verse, but it is a way of
putting things, we say he was born in 1235, but
in the realitty it is the first day of 1236, since 1235
years have passed since this first new day.

Also note that 1235 is a multiple of 19.
Also, in chapter 16 you will find one of the
4 words "bayan", in the Quran.

The expresion in this verse is:

kitab ta-bayan-a (the book of explanations)

kitab is the 1260th word of the chapter.
bayan is the 1261th word of the chapter.

How is that for a cute precision on the Bayan book ?

Note that this nice chapter 16 contains 1844 words.
Does your "buzzy buzzy" mind see the 1260 / 1844 relation,
or is it that you are just fooling around, like so many ?

Enjoy life, while ya can buddy.

Majnun.

nameless
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well...

Postby nameless » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:01 pm

<<--well, technically the bismillah is missing
before the 1236th verse, but it is a way of
putting things, we say he was born in 1235, but
in the realitty it is the first day of 1236, since 1235
years have passed since this first new day.-->>

#1. speak as a techie, or a geek, or a plain bozo: u will never be able to fool a discerning mind into believing (note that u have urself been fooled into believing) ur valuable thoughts on 1236.

#2. like i mentioned earlier, bab was born in 1819 and not 1821. again, bahaullah has been recorded as being born in 1817, and being 2 years elder to bab, which again backs up bab's birthdate falling in 1819. now no matter how hard u pour ur head over it, or more appropriately whoever 'discovered' this 'proof': 1819 ad does not convert to 1236 ah, it converts to 1234 ah. so unless u are explaining what does not exist to urself, u may not find too many takers. :-)

<<--Also note that 1235 is a multiple of 19.
Also, in chapter 16 you will find one of the
4 words "bayan", in the Quran.

The expresion in this verse is:

kitab ta-bayan-a (the book of explanations)-->>

#3. like many other religions and their sects, some bahais have also started fooling themselves with hidden scriptural clues, or so it seems. atleast make sure u have correct information. does it feel nice to be corrected every time u post something(?) :-) the closest word to the 1 which u have claimed in that chapter is the word 'tibyanan', not 'bayan'. there is plentiful usage of other derivatives like 'tibyanan' in that chapter itself. :-)

<<--kitab is the 1260th word of the chapter.
bayan is the 1261th word of the chapter.

How is that for a cute precision on the Bayan book ?-->>

#4. there v go again, the only verse which comes closest to ur spurious claim has the words 'alkitaba tibyanan'. how would that serve as a cute piece of information for a confused mind. :-)

<<--Note that this nice chapter 16 contains 1844 words.
Does your "buzzy buzzy" mind see the 1260 / 1844 relation,
or is it that you are just fooling around, like so many ?-->>

#5. 1844 words. 1844 ad. so now u are trying to say that at times quran contains clues in hijri calendar years, and at other (times) in gregorian calendar years. maybe if u try hard enough, u will find more 'proofs' in years according to other calendar systems as well. ;)

#6. fooling around is not a desirable virtue, but to be fooled is not any more desirable either. ;)

<<--Enjoy life, while ya can buddy.-->>

#7. do enjoy ur life while u can. :-)

Daniel

To Keyvan...and others too

Postby Daniel » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:43 pm

"and no, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, and Hindus are not "believers" according to the Quran "

When God was giving these verses via Muhammad, there were no Book called Quran. The Book came after all Surahs were manifestated. So when word:"Quran" is mentioned in Quran, it should be neither profetical or it should be readed as the meaning of it: "recite".

Very interesting is verse 55:1-4
The Beneficent God, Taught the Quran. He created man, Taught him the mode of expression.

And in arabic:
Alrrahmanu / AAallama alqur-ana / Khalaqa al-insana / AAallamahu albayana

To bahá'ís it should be clear what is Bayán...

majnun
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Oh, Let's Twist Again

Postby majnun » Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:12 am

.
Smart reasoning Daniel.
But can we say the same thing about
the word bayan when it is mentionned in
the book labelled bayan by the Bab ?

If we read the text of the Bayan, it is
easy to figure out the Bab talks about the
book he actually writes, when he talks about it.

Those four quranic verses have been used as
a proof in many books that talks about bahais.
Even Abdul Baha take those 4 verses as an example, to introduce
his book originally titled Civilisation (1875 ad).

On the other hand, why is it so important to rely on
the bed of the proof, unless we are heavely tied to older
scriptures ?

In the Bayan, it is written that the[i] Sirat[/i] (road) is very
narrowed for the ones who resist, but it becomes very
wide, for the ones who accept.

Unfortunately, many people in this forum, and many of them are
are very intelligent, are still walking in the Quran's thick syrup.
They talk and refer to the too often, as a base for their argumentation.
They cannot detach themselfves
from the informations they ingested.
They have some difficulties to change their old mentalities.

This is contrary to Baha'u'llah's message, wich invites people
to forget what they saw, heard, and acquired, and then move
forward with this new Revelation.

Turning in circles inside the little pond of the Qur'an again and again,
this is not what Baha'u'llah intended for us. He invites us to bathe
our conscience into an Ocean, the ocean of verses He wrote just for us.


MJ.

Daniel
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My point was...

Postby Daniel » Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:56 am

because word Qu'ran has its meaning, when you read Qu'ran you have to think does Muhammad mean the Book or just the meaning of the word itself. I haven't read Bayán, simply because It has not been translated to my language.

I don't want to "walk in Qu'ran's thick syrup", my backround is christian, and I don't also want walk in thick syrup of Bible anymore.
But for some people, who are not yet bahá'ís, these things are important. If we want to teach the Faith, we have to know what to say when they ask about proofs. For muslims there is a big problem with the term "Seal of Prophets", but it it's very clearly, and I mean VERY clearly, stated in Qu'ran, that it doesn't mean there would not be any Prophet after Muhammad.

So my point is you always have to think what you are reading, and you have to forget your prejudice's and your selfish thoughts.
This should not be a problem for bahá'í when reading old Books like Qu'ran or Bible. And as a bahá'í I don't need proofs from Qu'ran or Bible for myself, the Ocean of Bahá'u'lláh is enough.

Baha'i Warrior
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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:12 pm

i agree Daniel, the proofs really aren't for us (since we have already been converted), they are just something to keep handy in case you ever need them when approached by a Muslim or Christian.

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:08 am

Muhammad referred to the Quran as the Quran.


and Majnun will you knock it off with that nonsense.

“Shoghi Effendi wishes me also to express his deep-felt appreciation of your intention to study the Qur'án. The knowledge of this revealed holy Book is, indeed, indispensable to every Bahá'í who wishes to adequately understand the writings of Bahá'u'lláh. And in view of that the Guardian has been invariably encouraging the friends to make as thorough a study of this Book as possible, particularly in their Summer Schools. Sale's translation is the most scholarly we have, but Rodwell's version is more literary, and hence easier for reading.”

     (On behalf of Shoghi Effendi, The Importance of Deepening, p. 221)


“The Sacred Books are full of allusions to this new dispensation. In the Book of Íqán, Bahá’u’lláh gives the key-note and explains some of the outstanding passages hoping that the friends will continue to study the Sacred Books by themselves and unfold the mysteries found therein.
“The people, failing to comprehend the meaning of the symbols and the truth of the Sacred Verses, thought them to be myths and unrealizable dreams. It is the duty of the friends who have been endowed by Bahá’u’lláh with the power of discernment to study these Sacred Books, ponder upon their passages and teach the disheartened people of the earth the treasures of knowledge they enclose.”

(On behalf of Shoghi Effendi, Pearls of Wisdom, 65-66)


"It is certainly most difficult to thoroughly grasp all the Surihs of the Qur'án, as it requires a detailed knowledge of the social, religious and historical background of Arabia at the time of the appearance of the Prophet. The believers can not possibly hope, therefore, to understand the Surihs after the first or even second or third reading. They have to study them again and again, ponder over their meaning, with the help of certain commentaries and explanatory notes as found, for instance, in the admirable translation made by SALE, endeavor to acquire as clear and correct understanding of their meaning and import as possible. This is naturally a slow process, but future generations of believers will certainly come to grasp it. For the present, the Guardian agrees, that it would be easier and more helpful to study the Book according to subjects, and not verse by verse and also in the light of the Báb, Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá's interpretation which throw such floods of light on the whole of the Qur'án."

(On behalf of Shoghi Effendi, Directives of the Guardian, p. 64)


The following statement, referred to by Mr. ... and published in "Principles of Baha'i Administration" without a date, was added by Shoghi Effendi to a letter written on his behalf to an individual on 7 December 1930. He wrote:


I wish to add and say that whatever letters are sent in my behalf from Haifa are all read and approved by me before mailing.1 There is no exception whatever to this rule.


"Instructions sent on behalf of the Guardian are binding, as are the words of the Guardian; although of course, they are not the Guardian's words."
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 314)

British_Bahai
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Postby British_Bahai » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:28 pm

Baha'u'llah
The Great Announcement of the Qur'an

by Muhammad Mustafa

book available online:
http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?file ... nguage=All


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