1844 or 1852?

All research or scholarship questions

2844 or 2852?

Poll ended at Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:45 am

anytime before 2844
0
No votes
2844
0
No votes
2852
2
50%
anytime after 2852
2
50%
 
Total votes: 4

Hasan
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1844 or 1852?

Postby Hasan » Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:45 am

This poll is for bahá'ís or students of Bahá'í Faith.

I made this poll just to see what are the opinions on this topic. Let’s vote!

Note: In the Bahá'í Faith there is an explicit prophecy which says a Prophet shall appear in 1000 or more years, the question is: since when? From what year we have to count?, I know what the Aqdas's notes says, but let we explain why.

From His Holiness, the Báb’s Revelation (1844) 2844 AD
From His Holiness, Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation (1852) 2852 AD

onepence

procedure

Postby onepence » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:21 pm

how can I vote ... or how do I vote ... must I be registered to vote ... how do i register ?????

dh

Hasan
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Re: procedure

Postby Hasan » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:35 pm

click here: http://bahai-library.com/forum2/index.php then click on "register" it is easy.

onepence
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Re: procedure

Postby onepence » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:01 pm

Hasan wrote:click here: http://bahai-library.com/forum2/index.php then click on "register" it is easy.


hey ...
wow ...
so cool

it was easy ... believe it or not sometimes I am a little slow, a little dense, and sometimes it even takes great patience on others parts that eventually helps to guide and lead me upon my personal path of truth ...

so thanks Hassan for your reply ... i think being registered will help me a lot ... can't believe I overlooked that button for so long ... lol ...

ok ... so back to your poll/post ... I voted for after (1852) 2852 AD ... yes I voted after ... and actually I would have voted for after 29 May 1892 if the option was given ... cuz ... just my thought ... that He coud have changed any aspect {including His Writing} up to the point of 29 May 1892.

After Baha'u'llah passed away there is no way no how that even a dot or a jot from His Text could be altered, however,before He passed away He could have written Text to further educate us upon the meanings of the KITAB-I-AQDAS, but He didn't , imho, {at least to the question/topic at hand being discussed here} so the Text stands completed after 29 May 1892.

a person of oneness,
Dean Hedges

onepence
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edit

Postby onepence » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:09 pm

hey ... so cool ... editted the above text ...

i am such a sloppy writer sometimes .... that it feels so good to be able to edit ... thanks again Hasan ... dh

Hasan
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Re: edit

Postby Hasan » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:02 pm

onepence wrote:hey ... so cool ... editted the above text ...

i am such a sloppy writer sometimes .... that it feels so good to be able to edit ... thanks again Hasan ... dh


Well, you're welcome.

Also, what you said about 1892 is interesting... I forget to put it as an option...

Actually, the Most Holy Book, note 62 http://bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/aqdas/notes.html explains that the Revelation of God to Bahá'u'lláh was in october 1852 (especially from 15 october and so on) 15 october was year 1269 Hegira (the Prophecy of the Bab, year Nine)

see calendar converter here:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/
Check the Báb's Year Nine prophecy in GPB, p.29 here:
http://bahai-library.com/writings/shoghieffendi/gpb/26-30.html

onepence
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Location: Longwood, FL, USA

Re: edit

Postby onepence » Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:21 am

Hasan wrote:
onepence wrote:hey ... so cool ... editted the above text ...

i am such a sloppy writer sometimes .... that it feels so good to be able to edit ... thanks again Hasan ... dh


Well, you're welcome.

Also, what you said about 1892 is interesting... I forget to put it as an option...

Actually, the Most Holy Book, note 62 http://bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/aqdas/notes.html explains that the Revelation of God to Bahá'u'lláh was in october 1852 (especially from 15 october and so on) 15 october was year 1269 Hegira (the Prophecy of the Bab, year Nine)

see calendar converter here:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/
Check the Báb's Year Nine prophecy in GPB, p.29 here:
http://bahai-library.com/writings/shoghieffendi/gpb/26-30.html


hi Hassan

I read the links you provided and really enjoy the study of the Sacred Text , "the treasury of both His fire and His light" , and found the following description of the Baha'i calendar as

"commemorating the 19 year period between the 1844 proclamation of the Báb in Shiraz and the revelation by Bahá'u'lláh in 1863"

to be very profound, inasmuch as Baha'u'llah Writings bridge all known realities to each other, although, imho, it appears there is strong emphasis between bridging Islamic thought with His Revelation as in the statement

He specifies that "each year" of this thousand year period consists of "twelve months according to the Qur'án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán".

... .... ... ... The bridging, the linking, and refrencing at least two other Authorities besides Himself i find truely fascinating and perhaps will be useful to me on a personal level at a later date ...

... thanks for the links ...

btw ... a while back ago, at this site, i was writing some poetry that I had entitled "kEEPER OF THE FLAME", which is now gone, deleted for who nows what reason, and since i didn't want to explain my poetry, i let it go, without a word or a wimper, but truth be known ...

O KEEPER OF THE FLAME

was my silly attempt to leave a personal , message of love and devotion to "the next Manifestation of God", ... but alas etc. etc. etc. .... .... well i guess i really shouldn't trivilize tragedy, because for me the removal of the post{s} were tragic; however, i also realize there is a lot worse tragic around me, and plenty, and i do mean plenty, of tragedies that i am trying to avert ... ... ... ... ... like what happens if communication between The Universal House of Justice and the faithful followers of Baha'u'llah is suddenly silenced for a time ? ... ... ... scary thought ... ... ... power vacums ensue and a rush to fill the void would be very likely ... and what would be Americas role in such an event {especially considering the level of covenant breaking within her borders} ... ... ... so you see ... a lot of things are on my mind ... ... .. a lot of possible tragidy that perhaps can me minimized and mitigated ... ... ... like the single world currency issue ... ... ... ... .... ... .... just on and on my poor soul seems to want to rush in and help and heal and fix .... .... .... ... ... but alas so much is just only in my imagination ...

like trying to leave a note

to the next Manifestation of God

oneness
dh

paul123csp

Postby paul123csp » Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:16 pm

This issue is clearly explained by the Guardian. Votes have no bearing on the explicit contents of our holy texts and their interpretaions by the Master and the Guardian. The start of the 1000 years is Baha'u'llah's declaration in the Black Pit. Further, no manifestation can occur prior to the expiration of the 1000 years but it could be any time afte that.

onepence
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Location: Longwood, FL, USA

Postby onepence » Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:58 am

paul123csp wrote:This issue is clearly explained by the Guardian. Votes have no bearing on the explicit contents of our holy texts and their interpretaions by the Master and the Guardian. The start of the 1000 years is Baha'u'llah's declaration in the Black Pit. Further, no manifestation can occur prior to the expiration of the 1000 years but it could be any time afte that.


ok ... I can see your point ... never studied the issue that much ...

care to cite specific Text that indicates to you "The start of the 1000 years is Baha'u'llah's declaration in the Black Pit."

.... it sounds good to me ... just curious at to Text refrence ...

tia
dh

paul123csp

Postby paul123csp » Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:49 pm

Gladly. I am out of town. Please give me a few days and I will post the exact reference.

Warmest Regards

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:04 am

Hasan already referred to it, so I am puzzled why he still posted the question. These notes were prepared under the Universal House of Justice.

The intimation of His Revelation to Bahá'u'lláh in the Síyáh-Chál of Tihrán, in October 1852, marks the birth of His Prophetic Mission and hence the commencement of the one thousand years or more that must elapse before the appearance of the next Manifestation of God.

(Notes to the Kitab-i-Aqdas, no. 62)


best wishes,
Brett

onepence
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Brett

Postby onepence » Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:31 pm

Thanks Brett,

It is a good quote and thanks for updating this thread.

It is always a pleasure to know an exact quote from our Guardian.

peace be with you.

oneness
dh

Hasan
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Postby Hasan » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:11 am

brettz9 wrote:Hasan already referred to it, so I am puzzled why he still posted the question. These notes were prepared under the Universal House of Justice.


Brett, Islamic and Badi calendars differ on number of days.

Also, where is the quote of the Master or the Guardian which says we have to counter from 1852? It could be 1844, 1852, 1853, 1863, 1892 or even hypothetically anytime, because the badaa issue.

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:56 am

Hasan wrote:Brett, Islamic and Badi calendars differ on number of days.


The same note states:

...in one of His Tablets, He [Bahá'u'lláh] specifies that "each year" of this thousand year period consists of "twelve months according to the Qur'án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán".


Hasan wrote:Also, where is the quote of the Master or the Guardian which says we have to counter from 1852?


Why do we need one? There probably is one, I would think, but the unerring House of Justice is enough for me.

Hasan wrote:It could be 1844, 1852, 1853, 1863, 1892 or even hypothetically anytime, because the badaa issue.


Yes, and God could could change His mind and make the Incredible Hulk the next Manifestation of God. Just because we have to concede that anything is technically possible (e.g., that we are in fact in a dream dreamed up by a fairy pumpkin) doesn't mean that we have to take it seriously. Otherwise, people can say that any law or teaching may have changed and God gave them the authority to interpret the Writings for themselves.

If the words of the Manifestations of God mean anything, it is pretty hard to ignore this:

Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor...Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things.


Not much grey area there...

Granted as the Íqán was saying in the context of the reference to Badaa in the time of Noah, God may create tests for humanity, but the one you are referencing would be like the sun in midday splendor appearing at midnight--a bit much for us to handle (and inconsistent with progressive revelation)...

best wishes,
Brett

Hasan
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Postby Hasan » Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:48 pm

brettz9 wrote:The same note states:
in one of His Tablets, He [Bahá'u'lláh] specifies that "each year" of this thousand year period consists of "twelve months according to the Qur'án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán".


Do maths.

brettz9 wrote: Why do we need one? There probably is one, I would think, but the unerring House of Justice is enough for me.


I agree to count from 15 october 1852, the begin of Muslim year 1269. But, I don't think the House is unerring in matters of history.


Hasan wrote:It could be 1844, 1852, 1853, 1863, 1892 or even hypothetically anytime, because the badaa issue.

brettz9 wrote:
Yes, and God could could change His mind and make the Incredible Hulk the next Manifestation of God. Just because we have to concede that anything is technically possible (e.g., that we are in fact in a dream dreamed up by a fairy pumpkin) doesn't mean that we have to take it seriously. Otherwise, people can say that any law or teaching may have changed and God gave them the authority to interpret the Writings for themselves.
If the words of the Manifestations of God mean anything, it is pretty hard to ignore this:
Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor...Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things.

Not much grey area there...
Granted as the Íqán was saying in the context of the reference to Badaa in the time of Noah, God may create tests for humanity, but the one you are referencing would be like the sun in midday splendor appearing at midnight--a bit much for us to handle (and inconsistent with progressive revelation)...


Brett, I know that if happen before that explicit statement of Bahá'u'lláh would be like to change the gravity law, something illogical, I wrote before that for many "reasons" this could be not possible, HOWEVER, we should understand the doctrine of badaa says God is powered to change His Will anytime as He is the All-Powerful. A plausible answer (erudite said), is that we can’t be responsible to accused Him as a laying impostor if He appear before one thousand years.

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:01 pm

Hasan wrote:
brettz9 wrote: wrote:
The same note states:
in one of His Tablets, He [Bahá'u'lláh] specifies that "each year" of this thousand year period consists of "twelve months according to the Qur'án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán".


Do maths.


Please help me to understand what you are saying by this...

Hasan wrote:
brettz9 wrote: wrote:
Why do we need one? There probably is one, I would think, but the unerring House of Justice is enough for me.


I agree to count from 15 october 1852, the begin of Muslim year 1269. But, I don't think the House is unerring in matters of history.


I don't think anyone is disputing the dates of the inception of Bahá'u'lláh's mission, are they? We are talking about a doctrinal matter--one upon which the safeguarding of the Faith obviously could depend (though granted without fear of any permanent schism).

So you also agree it is 1000 years (lunar or solar--which is only about 15 years difference) from that date? So case is closed for here for now?

best wishes,
Brett

Hasan
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Postby Hasan » Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:15 pm

Two main issues here:

One: The prophecy of 1000 years, is from what date? 1844,1852,1853,1863,1892

Two: The counting depends on Calendars, Islamic lunar calendar (354 days) differs Badi solar calendar (365 days).

Anyone of us can answer these, the discussion is stoped.


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