long obligatory prayer question

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shm
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:40 pm

long obligatory prayer question

Postby shm » Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:49 pm

In the long obligatory prayer one of the gesture instruction are
Let him then stand and raise his hands twice in supplication, and say:
Ive heard that ur not even suppose to raise ur hands when u say the paragraph that follows this gesture instruction, so why does it say to raise hands twice?
Is there anywhere in the Bahai writings where it gives the details as to how to say the prayers cuz its kind of confusing for instance the raise hand twice is misleading or hard to understand if indeed ur not even suppose to raise ur hands.

shm
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:40 pm

Postby shm » Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:42 am

regarding the raising hand twice gesture
I have heard from my mom that she was taught when she was young in sunday school to just say the paragraph that followed that gesture without raising the hands. but she learned it in arabic. I asked her to check the arabic version of the long obligatory prayer, and she says for that gesture it does not say to raise hands at all. So Im confused as to why it says to raise hands twice in the english long obligatory prayer, has there been a translation error??

Also for the raising the hands, I personally don't think ur suppose to raise ur hands like ur reading a book. You are suppose to be reaching out to God and u are conversing with God, so holding out ur arms like ur reading a book is like holding God in front of ur face, and its like as if God is within ur hands which are infront of ur face, this seem wrong to me.
Reaching out with arms extended makes more sense and seems better to me a makes more sense, since God is higher than u so ur reaching out to him as much as u can, also when I try to picture how AbdulBaha would reach out his arms I would picture that they would be fully extended instead of having his hands right in his face.

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:46 am

Maybe you would be interested in the following:

1) Although it is not official, you may appreciate this pictorial display of the actions associated with the long obligatory prayer: http://home.wanadoo.nl/arjen.nandita/st ... Prayer.htm

2) Definitely check out sections 3 and 4 of http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_ques ... _prayer#s3

best wishes,
Brett

shm
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:40 pm

Postby shm » Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:48 pm

In this webpage http://home.wanadoo.nl/arjen.nandita/st ... Prayer.htm for the gestures where u have to stand straight up, it shows the stick person with his hands out infront of him, when I believe they are suppose to be to his sides, with his arms straight down
Also on that webpage it shows the same action/pictorial display for the raising hands twice instruction as it does when u are suppose to stand erect, so according to this website for the raising hands twice instruction ur not suppose to raise the hands

The UHJ gives two option, either to raise-->drop-->raise-->and say paragraph-->then drop after paragraph is done resuming to normal position, or to raise-->say paragraph-->drop-->raise-->drop resuming to normal position.

Apparently the actions/pictorial display of the the first website contradicts what the House says.
Also I dont know if the House looked at the original version of the obligatory prayer whether it was in Arabic or Persian before stating what they did cuz I believe according to my mom that for that gesture it does not even say to raise hands in the original version.
Who translated the long obligatory prayer? and have the gestures for the raising hands twice in the english version been translating differently than the original(Arabic/persian) purposely for some reason that we dont know (maybe to suit western believers or something). Cuz it doesnt make sense to me, if in the original(Arabic/persian) it doesnt even instruct to raise hands then why does it say it in the english.

and if it is true that depending on language in which the obligatory prayer is said that the gesture will be different,
then is what the UHJ said about the raise hand twice applicable to people who say it in english and not to the people to say it in the original persian/arabic.

Im confused

onepence
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Postby onepence » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:10 pm

deleted

shm
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:40 pm

Postby shm » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:44 pm

Ive checked over the instruction for raise hands twice in arabic with my mom and indeed it does say something like raise twice in arabic as well

Im sorry but I just have one further question if nobody minds. Its regarding this instruction

Let him then raise his hands thrice, and say:

The wording for this is almost the same as it is for the raise hands twice instruction but it just uses the word thrice. Now are we suppose to raise hands say "Greater is God than every great one" drop them, then raise them say it again then drop them, then raise agian and say again for a total of three times
OR
Are we to follow the pattern of the raise hands twice instruction for the raise hands thrice, so that we only say the following paragraph once, and if we are, are we suppose to raise drop raise drop for a total of three times and on the third raise say "Greater is God than every great one" so that we only say "Greater is God than every great one" one time

Ill appreciate any help

childintime
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Postby childintime » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:56 am

May I suggest a small book entitled "The Path Towards Spirituality: Sacred Duties and Practices of the Baha'i Life". It has very clear explanations of the required actions.

childintime
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Location: Canada

Postby childintime » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:58 am

I forgot to mention in my previous post that the book is available through Palabra Publications.

childintime
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Location: Canada

Postby childintime » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:29 am

While looking up the passages in that book, I noticed that they are all taken from Lights of Guidance, pp. 467-8. Here they are:

"... one of the believers asked the Guardian a question about the correct position for sitting. From the context it seems clear that this question is related to the medium Prayer, but this is not explicitly stated. The Guardian's reply states that sitting on a chair is permissible, but to sit on the floor is preferable and more fitting."

"In following the direction stating: 'Let him then stand and raise his hands twice in supplication, and say': ... the believer does not have to read twice the paragraph which follows. Whether the believer raises his hands twice before the reciting of the paragraph, or commences the reciting after having raised his hands once, and raises them a second time soon thereafter, is left to his choice.

"As to the direction which states: 'Let him then raise his hands thrice, and say: ... . ', and individual believer asked the beloved Guardian the following question: "... the direction to raise the hands thrice and say 'greater is God than every great one.' Does this mean after every raising of the hands, or only to be said once, after the three raisings?'

"Shoghi Effendi's secretary answered on his behalf as follows:

"The hands should be raised three times and each time the sentence be repeated in conjunction with the act."

"However, the Universal House of Justice has stated to National Spiritual Assemblies in the West that no issue should be made of this matter at the present time and since it has not been clarified and applied in detail to the western believers, they are under no obligation to go beyond the given by the beloved Guardian in 'Prayers and Meditations' in which ablutions are prescribed only in connection with the medium Obligatory Prayer.

"The instruction to raise one's hands occurs once in the medium Obligatory Prayer and five times in the long Obligatory Prayer. The term used in the original Arabic for the first, second and fourth occasions in the long prayers the same as that used in the medium Prayer. Therefore it would be entirely correct for the worshipper, when raising his hands on these occasions during the recitation of the long Obligatory Prayer to follow the more specific instructions given in English by the Guardian in his translation of the medium one. On the third and fifth occasions the instruction is given in the long Prayer, the words 'in supplication' are omitted. The House of Justice does not wish at this time to give any specific guidance in this connection; it leaves the matter to the discretion of the friends."


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