Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine True

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armchairscholar
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Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine True

Postby armchairscholar » Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:52 am

http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/docs/vol3/wmnuhj.htm

I have a few questions on this paper.

First, this paper seems to imply the now famous passage on women on the UHJ "O Handmaid" was in reply to the following question of Miss True and she received her answer in 1902 (look under the section "The Women's Struggle":

Many in our Assembly feel that the Governing Board in Chicago should be a mixed Board of both men & women. Woman in America stands so conspicuously for all that is highest & best in every department and for that reason it is contended the affairs should be in the hands of both sexes. . . .


However, this inquiry and response from the UHJ seem to indicate another passage was sent in reply to Miss True's question.

http://bahai-library.com/uhj_umumi

The H-Net paper says this reply was in 1909 while the UHJ letter lists it as an undated tablet translated by Ameen Fareed in 1909. A Baha'i Library archive gives its translation as being in 1909 also.

http://bahai-library.com/abdulbaha_letter_true_women

Which letter was sent to Corinne True at which time?

Personally, I feel the passage in the UHJ letter makes more sense than the "o handmaid" passage as it directly addresses Miss True's question.

Second, the H-net paper states that this passage of Abdu'l-Baha:

The House of Justice, however, according to the explicit text of the Law of God, is confined to men; this for a wisdom of the Lord God's, which will ere long be made manifest as clearly as the sun at high noon.
As to you, O ye other handmaids who are enamoured of the heavenly fragrances, arrange ye holy gatherings, and found ye Spiritual Assemblies, for these are the basis for spreading the sweet savours of God, exalting His Word, uplifting the lamp of His grace, promulgating His religion and promoting His Teachings, and what bounty is there greater than this?

As the paper claims, if this applies to what was then spiritual assemblies, why would Abdu'l-Baha say the forbiddance of women from LSA's is scriptural and then later change His mind? Is there funny business going on in this paper? ( I am aware the UHJ has written a response here http://bahai-library.com/uhj_women_uhj). Is this passage referring to an LSA or explicitly the UHJ? As the H-net paper has a different timeline, the context of this passage is changed from the Baha'i Library papers.


I am convinced without a doubt that "Baytu'l-`Adl-i-`Umumi" is referring specifically to the Universal House of Justice, so did early Baha'is misinterpret passages that were referring to the Universal House of Justice with LSA's?

armchairscholar
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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby armchairscholar » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:48 pm

So the mention of the establishment of the Shrine of the Bab and the Mashriqu'l-Akdar would have to make this letter in 1909.

http://bahai-library.com/abdulbaha_letter_true_women

I've also found two more papers with information on Corinne True.

http://bahai-library.com/maneck_women_bahai_faith

Look under "From East to West:

This paper leads me to believe that early male Baha'is did harbor some sexism and other Baha'is disagreed with Miss True.

Unlike Abdu'l-Bahá's previous correspondence, this letter seemed to exclude women's participation only on the, as yet, unformed international Bahá'í body not on the local or national houses of justices. At least this was the understanding of Corinne True, who again began to agitate for the election of women to the Chicago House of Spirituality. Not all Bahá'ís agreed with this interpretation, however, viewing it as a repetition of the Abdu'l-Bahá's ruling in his earlier letter. Thornton Chase, irritated by True's activities, wrote in 1910

So now my question revolves around this passage:

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/CW/cw-12.html

Corrine and other Baha'is understood this to forbid women from LSA's and this corroborate with Manacks,Stockman's,and Cole's paper. However, the notes in the Baha'i Reference Library text specify that this passage only applies to the UHJ. Why would Abdu'l-Baha state that scripture says LSA'S are confined to men when He would later allow women on all councils?

The UHJ and Shoghi Effendi understood this passage to be about the UHJ.

http://bahai-library.com/hornby_lights_ ... er=5#n2073

So what is this passage talking about? Does it apply to both?

brettz9
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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby brettz9 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:30 pm

Hello and welcome, Emma!

Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice are the only definitive sources after Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha on matters pertaining to the Faith, so yes, the passage is indeed only about the Universal House of Justice. :)

However, the document at http://bahai-library.com/uhj_women_uhj I think will clarify the reason for the ambiguity. To join together a few excerpts:

"In the following passage, 'Abdu'l Baha refered to membership on the "House of Justice" being restricted to men, without a specific designation of the level or levels of the institution to which this provision applied:

"The House of Justice, however, according to the explicit text of the Law of God, is confined to men; this for a wisdom of the Lord God's which will ere long be made manifest as clearly as the sun at high noon. (Selections from the writings of Abdu'l Baha (rev. ed) Haifa: Bahá'í World Center, 1982), p. 80)

"Later the Master clarified that it was only the Universal House of Justice whose membership was confined to men..."

"Hence, 'Abdu'l Baha and the Guardian progressively have revealed, in accordance with divine inspiration, the meaning and implications of Bahá'u'lláh's seminal teachings..."

"The progressive clarification of the details of the laws concerning membership of the Houses of Justice has been accompanied by a gradual implementation of their provisions...It is important to note that the timing of the introduction of the provisions called for by the interpretations of 'Abdu'l Baha and the Guardian in relation to the Local and National Spiritual Assemblies, rather than constituting a response to some external condition or pressure, was dictated by the principle of progressive implementation of the laws, as enjoined by Bahá'u'lláh Himself.


It appears therefore that 'Abdu'l-Baha deliberately left His initial statement ambiguous, as indeed there had been some resistance to the idea at the time. Remember that 'Abdu'l-Baha was advocating for women's suffrage (e.g., Star of the West, Volume 3, Issue 8, p. 18) before it became a universal reality in the U.S. (1920 with the 19th amendment to the U.S. Constitution) and women acquired this right to serve on Baha'i Assemblies before that time (a translation at least as far back as 1909 made this clear), so He had to contend with some resistance to the idea.

He Himself spoke of the graduated introduction of these measures in this Tablet:

I am endeavouring, with Bahá'u'lláh's confirmations and assistance, so to improve the world of the handmaidens that all will be astonished. This progress is intended to be in spirituality, in virtues, in human perfections and in divine knowledge. In America, the cradle of women's liberation, women are still debarred from political institutions because they squabble. They are yet to have a member in the House of Representatives. Also Bahá'u'lláh hath proclaimed: "O ye men of the House of Justice." Ye need to be calm and composed, so that the work will proceed with wisdom, otherwise there will be such chaos that ye will leave everything and run away. "This newly born babe is traversing in one night the path that needeth a hundred years to tread." In brief, ye should now engage in matters of pure spirituality and not contend with men. 'Abdu'l-Bahá will tactfully take appropriate steps. Be assured. In the end thou wilt thyself exclaim, "This was indeed supreme wisdom!" I appeal to you to obliterate this contention between men and women....

('Abdu'l-Baha, Tablet - translated from the Persian, Women compilation, at http://bahai-library.com/compilation_wo ... all#ch1_11 , emphasis added)


It may admittedly be a little confusing because the Kitab-i-Aqdas, whose translation of par. 52 which mentions "O ye Men of Justice"...

"We have decreed that a third part of all fines shall go to the Seat of Justice, and We admonish its men to observe pure justice, that they may expend what is thus accumulated for such purposes as have been enjoined upon them by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. O ye Men of Justice! Be ye, in the realm of God, shepherds unto His sheep and guard them from the ravening wolves that have appeared in disguise, even as ye would guard your own sons. Thus exhorteth you the Counsellor, the Faithful."


...before this mention seems to be speaking of the Local House of Justice (as elsewhere fines are assigned to it). However, since 'Abdu'l-Baha explicitly indicated that the phrasing regarding men of Justice refers to the Universal House of Justice, and only to it, and since Baha'u'llah appointed 'Abdu'l-Baha to be His interpreter, there can be no ambiguity about it.

armchairscholar
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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby armchairscholar » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:43 pm

So the "O Handmaid" passage had a temporary meaning as applying to the Chicago House of Justice and Abdu'l-Baha later clarified His statements to be referring overarchingly to the UHJ?

Thanks for explaining

brettz9
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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby brettz9 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:01 pm

Yes, though I think I'd put it such that His words always meant the Universal House of Justice only, but at that time He stated it in such a way that the believers might interpret it as a reference to the Local House of Justice.

Another similar case or progressive unfolding of the laws within the dispensation (and between it and previous dispensations) related to polygamy.

jenniferatemple
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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby jenniferatemple » Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:19 pm

These passages certainly give women a great deal to contemplate as per what is really meant in writings about the institutions!

"http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/docs/vol3/wmnuhj.htm

Today the Baha'i women (lit., the leaves of the Holy Tree) must guide the handmaidens of the earth to the Lofty Horizon with the utmost purity and sanctity. Today the handmaidens of God are regarded as gentlemen (rijal). Blessed are they! Blessed are they!
(Quoted in Ahmad Yazdani, Mabadiy-i Ruhani, Tehran: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 104 Badi', p 109.)

Today whoever among the handmaidens attains the knowledge of the Desire of the World [i.e., Baha'u'llah] is considered a gentleman (rajul) in the Divine Book (Ibid)

...many a man (rajul) hath waited expectant for God's Revelation, and yet when the Light shone forth from the horizon of the world, all but a few turned their faces away from it. Whosoever from amongst the handmaidens hath recognized the Lord of all Names is recorded in the Book as one of those men (rijal) by the Pen of the Most High. (Women: Extracts from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice, comp. by The Research Department of the Universal House of Justice, Thornhill, Ont.: Baha'i Canada Publications, 1986, #7, p 3.)


Likewise, 'Abdu'l-Baha in one of his Tablets has made the same point:
Verily, according to Baha'u'llah, women are judged as gentlemen (rijal). (Quoted in Ahmad Yazdani, Maqam va Huquq-i Zan dar Diyanat-i Baha'i, vol. 1, Tehran: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 107 Badi'.)"

These quotes greatly change our status and I now do seriously wonder if we will not have a similar struggle where the UHJ is concerned!? Is it only temporary for the UHJ, which sites the same tablet as Chicago used before it was then was instructed to hold elections open to both sexes.

MontanaDon
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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby MontanaDon » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:32 pm

There's another possibility that nobody wants to talk about.
What if women are never to serve on any House of Justice?
They are currently allowed to serve on Spiritual Assemblies, but what if that changes when they attain the status of House of Justice?
I have never seen any authoritative citations that argue against this idea. IMO, this is a far simpler explanation than some of the convoluted arguments I've seen.

Don C
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Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.

brettz9
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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby brettz9 » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:43 am

I really think it is important for the friends interested in this issue to consider the Universal House of Justice letter which responded to its contents: http://bahai-library.com/uhj_women_uhj

jenniferatemple wrote:These passages certainly give women a great deal to contemplate as per what is really meant in writings about the institutions!


If they were true, they would also give men something to contemplate! However, the argument was rejected by the Universal House of Justice (see the letter mentioned above, in particular some passages cited below).

And without unduly contributing to the controversy, I might also add a personal impression that the site in question is hardly complying with the spirit or letter of the Faith's administrative procedures (which call for full obedience to even local and national institutions, pending any changes made by appeal) according to its "Editor's note" which mentions suppression by the Baha'i authorities and such. This fact does not automatically negate the original arguments of the posted paper (though again, the quotations cited by the Universal House of Justice do), but sites such as these which express hostility to the administration ought to give Baha'i friends some pause about the likelihood that they are presenting an impartial picture of the issue or that they understand the Covenant as do those who have accepted and attempted to take to heart the all-important words of Baha'u'llah's Book of the Covenant, the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha, or the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah by Shoghi Effendi which leave no room for ambiguity to Baha'is on the authoritativeness of Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice.

jenniferatemple wrote:Is it only temporary for the UHJ, which sites the same tablet as Chicago used before it was then was instructed to hold elections open to both sexes.


This is a valid question, but answered (in the negative) in the previously cited letter:

In the following passage, 'Abdu'l Baha refered to membership on the "House of Justice" being restricted to men, without a specific designation of the level or levels of the institution to which this provision applied:

"The House of Justice, however, according to the explicit text of the Law of God, is confined to men; this for a wisdom of the Lord God's which will ere long be made manifest as clearly as the sun at high noon. (Selections from the writings of Abdu'l Baha (rev. ed) Haifa: Bahá'í World Center, 1982), p. 80)

Later the Master clarified that it was only the Universal House of Justice whose membership was confined to men. Abdu'l Baha wrote:

"According to the ordinances of the Faith of God, women are the equals of men in all rights save only that of membership on the Universal House of Justice, for, as hath been stated in the text of the Book, both the Head and the members of the House of Justice are men. However, in all other bodies, such as the Temple Construction Committee, the Teaching Committee, the Spiritual Assembly, and in charitable and scientific associations, women share equally in all rights with men. (from a newly translated tablet).

Shogi Effendi, in a letter written on his behalf to an individual believer, provided the following authoritative elaboration on this theme:

"As regards your question concerning the membership of the Universal House of Justice; there is a Tablet from 'Abdu'l Baha in which he definitely states that the membership of the Universal House of Justice is confined to men, and that the wisdom of it will be fully revealed and appreciated in the future. In the local, as well as the National Houses of Justice, however, women have the full right of membership. It is, therefore, only to the International House of Justice that they cannot be elected. . ." (28 July 1936)

'Abdu'l Baha Himself, it should be noted, had, as attested by the above-cited extracts from His Tablets, affirmed that the ineligibility of women for election to the Universal House of Justice had been set out "in the text of the Book" and "in the explicit text of the Law of God". In other words, this provision was established by none other than Bahá'u'lláh Himself.

Further, in response to a number of questions about eligibility for membership and procedures for election of the Universal House of Justice, the Guardian's secretary writing on his behalf distinguished between those questions which could be answered by reference to the "explicitly revealed" Text and those which could not be. Membership to the Universal House of Justice fits into the former category. The letter stated:

"The membership of the Universal House of Justice is confined to men. Fixing the number of the members, the procedures for election and the term of membership will be known later, as these are not explicitly revealed in the Holy Text." (27 May 1940)

...

As mentioned earlier, the law regarding the membership of the Universal House of Justice is embedded in the Text and has been merely restated by the divinely appointed interpreters. It is therefore neither amenable to change nor subject to speculation about some possible future condition.

(Universal House of Justice, at http://bahai-library.com/uhj_women_uhj , emphasis added)


Note that the quotations above also address Don's line of inquiry regarding whether women might be excluded in the future when Spiritual Assemblies become Houses of Justice, in stating, "In the local, as well as the National Houses of Justice, however, women have the full right of membership." and "women are the equals of men in all rights save only that of membership on the Universal House of Justice".

I think the rest of the letter is also important as it makes such points as "the ineligibility of women for membership on the Universal House of Justice does not constitute evidence of the superiority of men over women", that women are to be found in all other levels of the Faith, that the progressive changes made by the figures of the Faith were not brought about by external pressure (pointing perhaps, to the notion some friends might have in believing that they can agitate for changes to be made by the Universal House of Justice as in Western democracies), and to have faith that the reason will become clear in time.

Warm regards,
Brett

armchairscholar
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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby armchairscholar » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:32 pm

No, I was not ever trying to imply that the paper was correct.

It's very explicitly wrong. They make no attempt to understand the interpretation of Shoghi Effendi. Instead they circumvent his authority for their own interpretation. Note that it was also clarified later by Abdu'l-Baha women could indeed not serve on the Universal house of Justice in his 1909 letter to Corinne True. What I wanted to know was the date of that letter and the earlier "O Handmaid" passage.

A 1997 UHJ letter clarified the meaning of Umumi in the 1909 letter.

http://bahai-library.com/uhj_umumi

Note how Corrine True understood the letter to be referring to the UHJ. The men of Chicago, who turned out to be mistaken, interpreted it to refer to the Chicago House of Justice. This seems to be an issue overlooked in the paper. Also overlooked is the meaning of "Baytu'l-`Adl-i-`Umumi".

Consult two papers on the Baha'i Library for further details.

http://bahai-library.com/stockman_true

http://bahai-library.com/maneck_women_bahai_faith

jenniferatemple
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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby jenniferatemple » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:58 pm

So the references cited are yet covenant breaking B Crap?!

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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby jenniferatemple » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:19 pm

"Presented in 1988 at the New Zealand Baha'i Studies Association Conference, Christchurch". So, was this presentation a "true" Baha'i teaching event? Who authorized it? The quotes are bogus, correct?

armchairscholar
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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby armchairscholar » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:57 pm

No, the sources and quotes are real but often misinterpreted. It's just wrong but not necessarily covenant-breaking. The UHJ wrote that response about why it is incorrect in response to the paper.

It's not a fabrication, but just because something uses real quotes and sources does not mean it is automatically accurate because the paper pushes a specific agenda. The authors did not seek to understand what Shoghi Effendi said and overlooked his interpretation.

I strongly recommend reading the two responses of the UHJ to clarify any issues you have..

Have you done so?

http://bahai-library.com/uhj_umumi

http://bahai-library.com/uhj_women_uhj

We have been informed of a paper, presented at a recent New Zealand Bahá'í Studies conference [online here], which raises the possibility that the ineligibility of women for membership on the Universal House of Justice may be a temporary provision subject to change through a process of progressive unfoldment of the divine purpose. We present the following points as a means of increasing the friends' understanding of this established provision of the Order of Bahá'u'lláh that membership of the Universal House of Justice is confined to men.

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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby jenniferatemple » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:41 pm

emma: I have read them now. I am rapidly coming to a point where I am afraid to read anything online with the exception of official institution websites. At the very least, if I read it in a Baha'i publishing trust book, I know it is officially accepted doctrine. I keep running into these kinds of confusions and do confess it to be wearying. Learning all we should is challenging enough with out malicious misleads and the constant need for redirection!

armchairscholar
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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby armchairscholar » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:55 pm

The article is misleading, but not malicious really. More like misunderstanding.

Or wishful thinking.

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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby jenniferatemple » Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:32 pm

I have been searching in every way and format I can think of both for the publications referenced and the specific quotes and up to this point can find not a single one of them. If they were, in fact, real quotes, one would expect to be able to find the documents that contained them. Where did these people find this stuff?

jenniferatemple wrote:
"http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/docs/vol3/wmnuhj.htm

Today the Baha'i women (lit., the leaves of the Holy Tree) must guide the handmaidens of the earth to the Lofty Horizon with the utmost purity and sanctity. Today the handmaidens of God are regarded as gentlemen (rijal). Blessed are they! Blessed are they!
(Quoted in Ahmad Yazdani, Mabadiy-i Ruhani, Tehran: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 104 Badi', p 109.)

Today whoever among the handmaidens attains the knowledge of the Desire of the World [i.e., Baha'u'llah] is considered a gentleman (rajul) in the Divine Book (Ibid)

...many a man (rajul) hath waited expectant for God's Revelation, and yet when the Light shone forth from the horizon of the world, all but a few turned their faces away from it. Whosoever from amongst the handmaidens hath recognized the Lord of all Names is recorded in the Book as one of those men (rijal) by the Pen of the Most High. (Women: Extracts from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice, comp. by The Research Department of the Universal House of Justice, Thornhill, Ont.: Baha'i Canada Publications, 1986, #7, p 3.)


Likewise, 'Abdu'l-Baha in one of his Tablets has made the same point:
Verily, according to Baha'u'llah, women are judged as gentlemen (rijal). (Quoted in Ahmad Yazdani, Maqam va Huquq-i Zan dar Diyanat-i Baha'i, vol. 1, Tehran: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 107 Badi'.)"

MontanaDon
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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby MontanaDon » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:41 pm

Has anybody ever seen a bogus letter from the House of Justice posted on a web site?

Don C
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Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.

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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby MontanaDon » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:19 am

Jennifer -
With the exception of the quotation from Compilation on Women, these are provisional translations of Persian pilgrims' notes published by the Persian Publishing Trust in Iran.

The Compilation on Women can be found at http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/CW/

Don C
----------
Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.

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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby jenniferatemple » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:06 am

Just an interesting note on Iranian culture from an Iranian believer:
" I just say it is cultural saying,..."
Apparently, her father was inclined to call her as man "because she could do anything a man could do"

jenniferatemple
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Re: Women on the UHJ and Abdu'l-Baha's letters to Corrine Tr

Postby jenniferatemple » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:02 pm

MontanaDon: I would think it would be taken down pretty fast by the UHJ if that happened and one can always check the UHJ's website to confirm the validity of the letters posted.


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