islam and bahai

All research or scholarship questions
chris(tnt)rhol
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islam and bahai

Postby chris(tnt)rhol » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:39 am

Hello to all. First time in this forum and i'am new to bahai.

I would love to know more about this belief system and please excuse me if I may seem ignorant.

I do have a question I would love to ask first if I could be so bold and to get my discussion on.

What are the similarities between islam and bahai faith, as I take it, bahai is a fulfilment of islam?

Thank you for reading.

Jonah
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Re: islam and bahai

Postby Jonah » Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:14 pm

Great question. Perhaps you haven't gotten an answer in 3 days because there's just so much to say. I spent 2 years in grad school studying it, and barely scratched the surface.

To start, check out this short overview, with many links in the notes for more reading: http://bahai-library.com/bahai_faith_islam

For a more detailed, well-written overview, there's Momen's classic book, http://bahai-library.com/momen_introduc ... ii_summary

For lots more, try http://bahai-library.com/title/baha%27i+islam

chris(tnt)rhol
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Re: islam and bahai

Postby chris(tnt)rhol » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:22 pm

Hello and thank you for your response.

I have been on this site and I am aware things can take time to learn, especially if there is a lot of content.

However if you truly understand your faith you should be able to give a brief summary which leaves nothing out.

I would appreciate directed effectively by somebody who sufficient knowledge.

Thank you and I look forward to a conversation with you.

Jonah
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Re: islam and bahai

Postby Jonah » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:47 pm

However if you truly understand your faith you should be able to give a brief summary which leaves nothing out.
I appreciate that challenge, Christian Troll! (I like your nick name.) :-) A brief summary, leaving nothing out, would indeed prove one's understanding.

I'm personally at a loss how to start, it seems like too big a topic. I googled it for a while, and found a great chart at http://www.religionfacts.com/bahai/comparison_chart.htm . Scroll to the bottom, "Comparison of Religious Beliefs."

I'm guessing most of the answers you're seeking would be theological, not cultural or otherwise.

That's important because we often confuse a believer's culture with his/her religious beliefs, e.g. conflating old Arabic practices like veiling with Islam and incorrectly thinking Islam requires the veil. Or another example is, in my few short years of studying Shi'i vs Sunni Islam, it seemed to me that, doctrinal differences aside, most of the differences stemmed from Persian vs. Arabic culture, practice, and national personalities, which predated or were unrelated to Islam.

Best, -J

chris(tnt)rhol
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Re: islam and bahai

Postby chris(tnt)rhol » Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:31 am

Jonah wrote:
However if you truly understand your faith you should be able to give a brief summary which leaves nothing out.
I appreciate that challenge, Christian Troll! (I like your nick name.) :-) A brief summary, leaving nothing out, would indeed prove one's understanding.

I'm personally at a loss how to start, it seems like too big a topic. I googled it for a while, and found a great chart at http://www.religionfacts.com/bahai/comparison_chart.htm . Scroll to the bottom, "Comparison of Religious Beliefs."

I'm guessing most of the answers you're seeking would be theological, not cultural or otherwise.

That's important because we often confuse a believer's culture with his/her religious beliefs, e.g. conflating old Arabic practices like veiling with Islam and incorrectly thinking Islam requires the veil. Or another example is, in my few short years of studying Shi'i vs Sunni Islam, it seemed to me that, doctrinal differences aside, most of the differences stemmed from Persian vs. Arabic culture, practice, and national personalities, which predated or were unrelated to Islam.

Best, -J



I agree that it may be a large subject however if you have studied it you should be able to give a clear summary on the subject. Yes the answers that jam looking for are theological and not related to local customs or culture in general. I agree with you also the point of avoiding culture with a basis for religious beliefs.

In regards to your other example shite v sunni, I will have to take your word for it as I am not too concerned about that subject matter. Thank you for the info

Having established these points I would now like to ask you some questions, if you would like to consider your answers.

Jesus gave information about his return to his disciples. First he said that everybody would see him come. He also said, he would be visible in the sky. Another point of his return, is he is coming as a judge, not as a prophet or a saviour (that was accomplished in the first coming.)

Just to clarify my position further. Jesus when he returns will not be born as a baby. It is impossible for Christ to come as a baby a second time around. The BIRTH, the life, the death and resurrection was needed only once ie the complete sacrifice.

The second coming of Christ as revealed in the book of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 16-17

"For The Lord (Jesus) himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of god and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up with them in the clouds to meet The Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with The Lord."

How do you understand that verse if the dead have not risen and we are still here?

"

iranpour
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Re: islam and bahai

Postby iranpour » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:03 am

Our dear friend chris(tnt)rhol has written:
Just to clarify my position further. Jesus when he returns will not be born as a baby. It is impossible for Christ to come as a baby a second time around. The BIRTH, the life, the death and resurrection was needed only once ie the complete sacrifice.

First we have to consider the meaning of Return that return does not mean the same personality would come from heaven. And that’s why you think that Christ “would not be born as a baby!” To clarify this subject, you know well that the Jews’ expectation for coming of Christ was conditioned to first the Return of their prophet, Elias, before Jesus (two different personalities). In the following verses He refers to the return of Elias as the appearance of John the Baptist:

“And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. (Matthew, 17: 10-13)

And secondly, He supposed to come from “Heaven” as His first coming, not from the “sky”

“And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven”. (Mark, 14:62)
“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”. (Matthew, 24:30)
21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory”. (Luke, 21;27)
There is no “heaven” in the Luke, 21:27.

Heaven means the heaven of the will of God and not the sky. He came from heaven in His first coming too, though He was apparently born of Holy Mary:

“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me”. (John, 6:38 )
“The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves”. (John, 6:41-42)
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven”. (John, 3:13 )

Later I hope to search for the meaning of “cloud”.

How do you understand that verse if the dead have not risen and we are still here?

You have to rise as Baha’is did! Just it needs to follow the following words of Luke:

“And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you”. (Luke, 11:9)

For real meaning of “rising the dead” I ask you to refer to the following words of Jesus responding to one of His disciples:

8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

So the rising of Dead in the holy writings does not mean the death of the body but means the spiritual death.

Jonah
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Re: islam and bahai

Postby Jonah » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:58 pm

> How do you understand that verse if the dead have not risen and we are still here?

Personally — and this is just my position, not necessarily a "Baha'i" one — I think a lot of such teachings and texts are meant to be parables or metaphors, not necessarily literal. For example (and again, this is only my interpretation), I would think of "raising the dead" as meaning something like bringing spiritual awakening, opening our eyes to the truths of the divine, shaking us out of existential slumber.

An essay which touches on this is Resurrection: A Bahá'í Perspective. And Christianity from a Baha'i Perspective discusses interpretations of this verse by Abdu'l-Baha:

The outward miracles have no importance to the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die. . . . If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life—that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: "Let the dead bury their dead;" for "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (Some Answered Questions, 100-101.)

iranpour
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Re: islam and bahai

Postby iranpour » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:59 am

The following writings of ‘Abdu’l-Baha conforms the subject of our discussion:
“So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: "Let the dead bury their dead" for "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the real existence. Wherever in the Holy Books they speak of raising the dead, the meaning is that the dead were blessed by eternal life; where it is said that the blind received sight, the signification is that he obtained the true perception; where it is said a deaf man received hearing, the meaning is that he acquired spiritual and heavenly hearing. This is ascertained from the text of the Gospel where Christ said: "These are like those of whom Isaiah said, They have eyes and see not, they have ears and hear not; and I healed them”.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 101)


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