Next Manifestation of God

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Pouria_19
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Next Manifestation of God

Postby Pouria_19 » Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:50 am

These are other points to be noted when contemplating on the revelation of the next Manifestation of God.
The following is to be noted in complementary to the post of Omid Townsend.



As already established before in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas (¶37):
 "Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying imposter. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repend, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his errror, God will assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things..."
-The next Manifestation of God will not come for another 1000.
 Although the Most Holy Book was revealed in 1873 (therefore the next manifestation due to come down at least at 2873 AD), this is a reference to the Greater Covenant of God. Therefore, it can, also, be taken into consideration that Bahá'u'lláh had his hidden intimation in the Síyáh-Chál from October 16-28 1852, and so the next manifestation not being due until 2852. Bahá'u'lláh also declared, privately, in the garden of Ridván (Geographically the same place as the garden of Eden) in April 21, 1863. So another option is that another manifestation won't come at least until 2863. These datings are in significant for the daily overall study, but is good to be contemplated on.

Scattered in His Writings, Bahá'u'lláh, repeatedly, reveales the phrase:
 "He doeth, whatsoever He willeth, and ordaineth what he desireth."
(the latter of the passage has varying wording)
-It can be debated that, this passage alone, can 'over-rule' the passage in the Most Holy Book. Because it can establish that if God wills it, he can reveal his Manifestation at any time he willeth. But it does not coencide with the fact that God will punish him who is a false prophet. This fact is astounding.

In the Kitáb-i-Íqán, Bahá'u'lláh reveals:
 "Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified person of His chosen Ones... And whensoever the prtals of grade did open, and the clouds of divine bounty did rain upon mankind, the light of the Unseen did shine above the horizon of celestial might, they all denied Him, and turned away from His face-the face of God Himself. "(KI, p.4)
-This is passage can also be debated to be a prediction of the future. It can prophecise that the next manifestation can, too be rejected, but this is not to be mistaken to include the Universal House of Justice. In other places, in both the Íqán and other scriptures, (which I am still looking for) there are proofs that the next manifestation of God will be rejected by the outwardly learned. This argument can also be aided by the passage, "He doeth whatsoever He willeth" because it can be a test for the outwardly learned not to be so direct in the verses. But this can also be strongly argued against, for the Aqdas reveals, "Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning..."

Some other ideas to take into consideration:
-The next Manifestation of God may be female (because prior to the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, there was no equality)
-He/She may reveal Him/Herself at a much younger age
-The Universal House of Justice is divinely guided, therefore it will acknowledge when the next Manifestation of God has come
-There will be false prophets (I am still in the proccess of finding proofs from the Writings

These are just some things to think about. It should, under no circumstances be taken up as anyway authoritative, because all the thoughts composed are my own.

H.

Postby H. » Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:25 am

Please see "The next prophet" in the other topic
Thanks,
H.

shadbakht
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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby shadbakht » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:53 pm

I see that "the next prophet" thread is closed, so I'll post here.
I just wanted to ask a question. I've heard that there's a quote from Bahá'u'lláh mentioning He has already wept for the next Manifestation of God.
Does anyone recall or know the source?
Thank you

brettz9
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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby brettz9 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:05 am

Were you thinking of one of these:

"I am not apprehensive for My own self," Bahá'u'lláh still more explicitly declares, "My fears are for Him Who will be sent down unto you after Me--Him Who will be invested with great sovereignty and mighty dominion." And again He writes in the Súratu'l-Haykal: "By those words which I have revealed, Myself is not intended, but rather He Who will come after Me. To it is witness God, the All-Knowing." "Deal not with Him," He adds, "as ye have dealt with Me."

(Shoghi Effendi, World Order of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 117)


For more quotations on the Next Manifestation, see http://bahai9.com/wiki/Him_Who_will_be_ ... u_after_Me

shadbakht
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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby shadbakht » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:18 am

Thank you dear Brett,
I do know that one, which is very similar to the one I'm thinking of. That's not the one, though.

iranpour
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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby iranpour » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:14 am

Our friend Pouria_19 has written:
Scattered in His Writings, Bahá'u'lláh, repeatedly, reveales the phrase:
"He doeth, whatsoever He willeth, and ordaineth what he desireth."
(the latter of the passage has varying wording)
-It can be debated that, this passage alone, can 'over-rule' the passage in the Most Holy Book. Because it can establish that if God wills it, he can reveal his Manifestation at any time he willeth. But it does not coencide with the fact that God will punish him who is a false prophet. This fact is astounding.


I have to say that the following words of Baha’u’llah in the Kitab-i-Iqan has not mentioned in this discussion, Who appointed the date about a thousand year:

“Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and re-adorned. …. That city is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation”. (Kitab-i-Iqan p. 219)

The word “about” which has revealed from the Pen of Glory as certified by the Persian text of the Iqan and defined by dictionary as “approximately, at a time near to,close to”, must be before or after, but very close to a thousand year.

I suggest that the next Manifestation would appear 983 years after the inauguration of the Baha'i Era (B.E). And as Baha’u’llah received the first intimation of His world Mission on 1852 and His Formal or Public Declaration was on 1863, there would be two options:

A: 1863-1844=19 983+19=1002 years after the Open Declaration, on 2865 A.D.

B: 1852-1844=8 983+8=991 years after the intimate Declaration, on 2835 A.D.

If you ask where did I found the number 983, it is the numeral number of one of the Baha'i texts by the Abjad Notation.

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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby brettz9 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:35 am

Hello,

According to the notes of the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the reckoning will be from 1852:

"The intimation of His Revelation to Bahá'u'lláh in the Síyáh-Chál of Tihrán, in October 1852, marks the birth of His Prophetic Mission and hence the commencement of the one thousand years or more that must elapse before the appearance of the next Manifestation of God."

(Notes to the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, note 62)


The same note also mentions:

"The Dispensation of Bahá'u'lláh will last until the coming of the next Manifestation of God, Whose advent will not take place before at least "a full thousand years" will have elapsed. Bahá'u'lláh cautions against ascribing to "this verse" anything other than its "obvious meaning", and in one of His Tablets, He specifies that "each year" of this thousand year period consists of "twelve months according to the Qur'án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán".
'Abdu'l-Baha underscores the obviousness of the "years" again with "years known and clearly established by common usage and requiring no interpretation".

Note also from the above and from the text of the Aqdas, that it must at least be a "full" thousand years (with Shoghi Effendi restating it as "at least one thousand years", and Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice further underscoring it as "no less than a thousand years").

The only "wiggle room" is the puzzling statement, "twelve months according to the Qur'án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán" which would suggest to me that it could either be based on a lunar calendar or solar, so I think it could end up to your supposition of 983.

Anyways, it will not be in our lifetime...

MichaelTChase
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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby MichaelTChase » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:53 pm

Thanks brettz9 for sharing that quote from the Kitab-i-Aqdas. I was going to if no one else did. A few years ago I did the math from the Siyah-Chal period (late summer-early autumn of 1852) and it came to 2269 A.H. in the Muslim calendar for 1000 lunar years, which is 2823 A.D. So we are only three years away from the 800 year mark.

Hasan
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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby Hasan » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:26 am

Chad wrote:Thanks brettz9 for sharing that quote from the Kitab-i-Aqdas. I was going to if no one else did. A few years ago I did the math from the Siyah-Chal period (late summer-early autumn of 1852) and it came to 2269 A.H. in the Muslim calendar for 1000 lunar years, which is 2823 A.D. So we are only three years away from the 800 year mark.


Hi Chad, here are three important dates, see the lunar months Dhul Qada and Muharram, dates of Birth, Revelation, Declaration and Ascension are relevant :
1000 solar years from 15 October 1852 A.D., 2 Muharram 1269 A.H., 1 Ilm 9 B.E.
1000 lunar years from 29 May 1892 A.D., 2 Dhul Qada 1309 A.H., 13 Azamat 49 B.E.
1000 solar years from 21 April 1863 A.D., 2 Dhul Qada 1279 A.H., 13 Jalal 20 B.E.

Adding those 1000 years:
to 15 October 2852 A.D., 10 Ramadan 2299 A.H., 1 Ilm 1009 B.E.
to 18 August 2862 A.D., 2 Dhul Qada 2309 A.H., 19 Kamal 1019 B.E.
to 21 April 2863 A.D., 11 Rajab 2310 A.H., 13 Jalal 1020 B.E.

Adding those 1000 years using the original lunar months of Muharram or Dhul Qada but inside the Bahá'í year:
to 2 February 2853 A.D., 2 Muharram 2300 A.H., 13 Sultan 1009 B.E.
to 18 August 2862 A.D., 2 Dhul Qada 2309 A.H., 19 Kamal 1019 B.E.
to 8 August 2863 A.D., 2 Dhul Qada 2310 A.H., 8 Kamal 1020 B.E.

The extremes dates of this calculation are 1009 E.B. to 1020 E.B. or 2299 A.H. to 2310 A.H. or 2852 to 2863.

From those dates it is clear for me these:
Her birth will be possibly in 2299 or 2300 D.H. from October 2852 to February 2853 in the year nine 1009 B.E. look at the new moon.
The most clear date is 2 Dhul Qada 2309 A.H. which is 19 Kamal 1019 B.E. or 18 August 2862 A.D., this could be the date of Her revelation from God or Her declaration, we are talking about a girl of 9 years of age in 1019 B.E. and 10 years of age in 1020 B.E. She will probably wait 5 more years to declare Her Mission to reach the formal age of maturity so it will be less shocking to people.

MichaelTChase
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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby MichaelTChase » Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:34 pm

Hasan, you used two dates which do not apply to the 1000 years, namely 1892 and 1863. It clearly states in the KitabiAqdas that the date used is in the SihyaShal in early Autumn of 1852. Thus, the 1000 lunar or 1000 solar only applies to Autumn 1852. Wherein checking http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/ it would be 2852AD/2299AH or 2269AH/2823AD.

It is good that Baha'is are having this discussion now to clarify this important date

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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby Hasan » Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:07 pm

Chad wrote:Hasan, you used two dates which do not apply to the 1000 years, namely 1892 and 1863. It clearly states in the KitabiAqdas that the date used is in the SihyaShal in early Autumn of 1852. Thus, the 1000 lunar or 1000 solar only applies to Autumn 1852. Wherein checking http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/ it would be 2852AD/2299AH or 2269AH/2823AD.

It is good that Baha'is are having this discussion now to clarify this important date


Chad, the only way to harmonize the 1000 years according to solar years and lunar years is counting 1000 solar years from 1852 and counting 1000 lunar years from 1892.

According to my knowledge and intuition, all the prophetic dates should be counted according to the lunar day. So, although, you add 1000 solar years from 1852, you take into account the lunar day which in this case is always the second day of Muharram. And if you take into account 1892 and add 1000 lunar years, then the day is the second day of Dhul Qa'da. This is because you need to count the lunar months also.

It is important to count lunar months because the Bahá'í Calendar is made of cycles of 19 solar years which is a Metonic cycle in which there are exactly 235 lunar months.

Look at these two quotes from the Guardian in God Passes By:
Unique and stupendous as was this Proclamation, it proved to be but a prelude to a still mightier revelation of the creative power of its Author, and to what may well rank as the most signal act of His ministry—the promulgation of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas. Alluded to in the Kitáb-Íqán; the principal repository of that Law which the Prophet Isaiah had anticipated, and which the writer of the Apocalypse had described as the “new heaven” and the “new earth,” as “the Tabernacle of God,” as the “Holy City,” as the “Bride,” the “New Jerusalem coming down from God,” this “Most Holy Book,” whose provisions must remain inviolate for no less than a thousand years, and whose system will embrace the entire planet, may well be regarded as the brightest emanation of the mind of Bahá’u’lláh, as the Mother Book of His Dispensation, and the Charter of His New World Order.
And:
The Sun of Truth, the world’s greatest Luminary, had risen in the Síyáh-Chál of Ṭihrán, had broken through the clouds which enveloped it in Bagháad, had suffered a momentary eclipse whilst mounting to its zenith in Adrianople and had set finally in ‘Akká, never to reappear ere the lapse of a full millenium.

So, from 16 October 1852 (lunar Birthday number 36 of Bahá'u'lláh and the moment He received His Revelation in the Black Pit of Tehran), you add 1000 solar years but take into account the lunar day, this was the 2nd of Muharram.

And from 29 May 1892 (Ascension of Bahá'u'lláh) you add 1000 lunar years. The 2nd of Dhul Qa'da was the day of Bahá'u'lláh's intimate proclamation in Baghdad and also the day of His Ascension exactly 30 lunar years after.

So, adding 1000 solar years to 1852 leads to 15 October 2852 A.D., 10 Ramadan 2299 A.H., 1 Ilm 1009 B.E., but remember the important lunar day here is 2nd Muharram which is to 2 February 2853 A.D., 2 Muharram 2300 A.H., 13 Sultan 1009 B.E.

Now, adding 1000 solar years to 1863 leads to 21 April 2863 A.D., 11 Rajab 2310 A.H., 13 Jalal 1020 B.E. but taking into account the lunar day leads to the previous lunar year which is 18 August 2862 A.D., 2 Dhul Qa'da 2309 A.H., this is exactly 1000 lunar years after Bahá'u'lláh's Ascension. The first time Bahá'u'lláh announced the 1000 years prophecy was here in Baghdad in the Garden of Rezvan, so this date is important.

Now, adding 1000 lunar years to 1892 leads to 18 August 2862 A.D., 2 Dhul Qa'da 2309 A.H., 19 Kamal 1019 B.E. the same date as before.

All these dates are interesting, the Bahá'í years 1009 and 1019 stand out greatly. That is why I believe that the next Prophet or Manifestation of God will be very young when She will receive revelation from God, perhaps 9 or 10 years old, and probably She will announce Her mission 4 or 5 years later reaching the socially acceptable age of maturity.

Hasan
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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby Hasan » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:18 pm

Hi, I made an Excel about this, the image is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bgnttsf3bsj8w ... t.png?dl=0

Naw-Ruz B.E. A.D. min A.D. max A.H. min A.H. max
9 21/03/1852 20/03/1853 29/05/1268 09/06/1269
20 21/03/1863 20/03/1864 30/09/1279 11/10/1280
49 21/03/1892 20/03/1893 21/08/1309 02/09/1310

Naw-Ruz B.E. A.D. min A.D. max A.H. min A.H. max
1009 21/03/2852 20/03/2853 08/02/2299 18/02/2300
1020 21/03/2863 20/03/2864 09/06/2310 20/06/2311
1019 21/03/2862 20/03/2863 29/05/2309 08/06/2310

2nd Muharram 2nd Dhu al Q`ada A.D. Muharram A.D. Dhu al-Qada Inside Year B.E.
02/01/1269 02/11/1269 16/10/1852 07/08/1853 9
02/01/1279 02/11/1279 30/06/1862 21/04/1863 20
02/01/1309 02/11/1309 08/08/1891 29/05/1892 49

2nd Muharram 2nd Dhu al Q`ada A.D. Muharram A.D. Dhu al-Qada Inside Year B.E.
02/01/2300 02/11/2300 02/02/2853 24/11/2853 1009
02/01/2310 02/11/2310 17/10/2862 08/08/2863 1020
02/01/2309 02/11/2309 27/10/2861 18/08/2862 1019

The difference is 1000 solar years or 1031 lunar years from 02/01/1269 A.H. to 02/01/2300 A.H.
The difference is 1000 solar years or 1031 lunar years from 02/11/1279 A.H. to 02/11/2310 A.H.
The difference is 970 solar years or 1000 lunar years from 02/11/1309 A.H. to 02/11/2309 A.H.

The Bahá'í years 1009 B.E., 1019 B.E. and 1020 B.E. are highly relevant.

MichaelTChase
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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby MichaelTChase » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:44 am

Where do you get Baha'u'llah's ascension marking the 1000 year period, this is innovation and not in the Writings. Both the lunar and solar years are to be counted from the period of the Siyah-Chal.
On another note, I dreamed that I was talking about the end times in a dream and gave the year 3319 AD. I did some calculating of the Buddhist calendar and 2823 AD +543 or +544 years gives 3366 or 3367 in the Buddhist calendar for the next Millennium.

MichaelTChase
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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby MichaelTChase » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:24 am

62. Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years ¶37

The Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh will last until the coming of the next Manifestation of God, Whose advent will not take place before at least “a full thousand years” will have elapsed. Bahá’u’lláh cautions against ascribing to “this verse” anything other than its “obvious meaning,” and in one of His Tablets, He specifies that “each year” of this thousand year period consists of “twelve months according to the Qur’án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán.”

The intimation of His Revelation to Bahá’u’lláh in the Síyáh-Chál of Ṭihrán, in October 1852, marks the birth of His Prophetic Mission and hence the commencement of the one thousand years or more that must elapse before the appearance of the next Manifestation of God.

~KitabiAqdas

Hasan, I believe right now you are deviating from the obvious meaning of the 1000 lunar or solar years starting in October of 1852 by saying the 1000 lunar years begin at the Ascension of Baha'u'llah.

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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby Hasan » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:22 am

The 1st of Muharram 1269 A.H. is the starting date to count the 1000 years, that is clear, but those 1000 years are solar years, not lunar years.

I believe the revelation from God (first intimation) or the proclamation of the next Manifestation of God (or both) will take place in a range of years from the 1st of Muharram 2300 A.H. to the 2nd Dhu al Qadah 2319 A.H.

I believe the next Manifestation of God will be a woman, and She will receive the revelation from God as a child. This will shock people and will cause the rejection of Her station and mission but after a little season or short time (for me, that is a Metonic cycle, 19 solar years (vahid) or 235 synodic months) predicted by John of Patmos in his book Revelation or Apocalypse 20:3, people will accept Her as the new Manifestation of God.

Also, it is clear to me that "Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years" is not about 2000 years, 5000 years, 10000 years or more, not even 1100 years.

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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby MichaelTChase » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:30 am

Hasan, it is easy for a Bahai to see how a Messenger may come in the future and add new and interesting things as well as bring up things that have happened before.

I too believe that the 1000 years will come around like clockwork, and not in say 1100 years. Moreover, it could be a woman, and the Messenger could get get a glimpse of their Station as a child. In fact, it is most likely that they will display their breadth of intelligence as a child.

However, Baha'u'llah stated that all of the Gospel's prophecies have already been fulfilled. You can find this is God Passes By, and below:
To Queen Victoria He, during that same period, addressed an Epistle in which He calls upon her to incline her ear to the voice of her Lord, the Lord of all mankind; bids her “cast away all that is on earth,” and set her heart towards her Lord, the Ancient of Days; asserts that “all that hath been mentioned in the Gospel hath been fulfilled”

Therefore, any reference to the Gospel when approaching the Next Manifestation should be treated as signs that could happen due to the reinvention of a cycle, but are not proclaimed must happen.

Hasan, you are directly defying the Bahai Revelation by asserting that the 1000 years, both lunar and solar, do not begin around October of 1852 AD. Whether this is exactly the 1st Muharram 1269 AH, we do not, and cannot know. However, I do think you are correct because Shia Hadith states that the Mahdi will return in an even and not an odd year, which would give light to the succession of Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and the Next Manifestation. In other words, it wouldn't confuse the Next Manifestation with the Bab.

MichaelTChase
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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby MichaelTChase » Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:56 pm

Hasan,
However, I think you are right where you are headed with your Biblical interpretation. Because the next Manifestation could renew older books and leave newer ones (like the Bab and Baha'u'llah's) to the dust, so to speak. For each Manifestation, through direct inspiration with a new Covenant, can affirm or deny any truth from any age. This is upheld by the Bab at least, as far as I remember. Also, I think that the next Manifestation will once again send humanity back to all of Scripture, and not just the one upheld by Allah'u'Abha. They will be One with all previous and future Manifestations. However, to uphold your own interpretation despite Baha'u'llah's creative word for this age, would be to deny Baha'u'llah, for this age. Thus, the truth of the next Messenger (like the Maiden), is hidden in Allah'u'Abha's texts until the time is ripe for such truths to be told. Just because many wish to know the future truths, doesn't mean my neighbor with a rebel flag will be able to handle them yet.

I've legally changed my name to Michael Chase, and will open up a new account in that name. Cheers!

MichaelTChase
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Re: Next Manifestation of God

Postby MichaelTChase » Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:46 pm

What is interesting is that "maiden" or "virgin" in Arabic is spelled ayn-dahl-ra-alif-hamza. This, in common Ahdjad, is the number 2824 (70,700,200,1,1; added to 1852), just one year off from the 2823 AD/2269 AH date!!!


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