Guru Nanak?

All research or scholarship questions
palatadvor
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Postby palatadvor » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:32 am

GURU NANAK
GURU means A Teacher, A massenger which gives u knowledge.
Knowledge of truth, Knowledge of destroying sins, Knowledge of god

His name was Nanak Dev jee But because of teachings he started calling GURU

.Guru NANAK DEV JEE.

He moves around world

India(kanyakumari, J&K, Bengal, Gujrat)
Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran upto mecca
China, Nepal, Tibet, and many other countries

He also rotate mecca you must know that..........
When he was said that who are you hindu or muslim
He said "na hindu na muslmaan"
That's why his chadar taken by hindu and muslims bothy.

He travelled a lot for spreading Knowledge of truth, Knowledge of destroying sins, Knowledge of god thats wy called GURU

Guru Gobind Singh ->
When peer Bhikan Shah (Muslim) Moves to kid Guru gobind singh in patna , some hindu preachers were also there they took geeta and quran and and keep before guru gobind singh to know wat is he Guru gobind singh do the same he put both hands on both holy books.......

When guru jee was born peer bhikan shah do his Namaz on east side that khuda kaa nake bande ne zanam liya hai

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Postby palatadvor » Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:00 am

The expression oneness of god, oneness of mankind


THese wordings are best to describe about all prophets, gurus, peers, paigambars etc..............thats whyy i told u above

Well if you know morw about guru nanak & other gurus

yahoo id - hpt_lucky
rediffmail - hpt_lucky@rediffmail.com

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Postby palatadvor » Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:49 am

I waana tell you read Jaap sahib - That is telling u truth about god, That is path which tells you all about god.

Salutation to the Immortal. Salutation to the compassionate.

Salutation to the Formless. Salutation to the Unrivalled. (2)

Salutation to the Unattired. Salutation to God who is beyond portraiture.

Salutation to the incorporeal. Salutation to the Unborn. (3)

Salutation to the Impregnable. Salutation to the Indestructible.

Salutation to God who is beyond name. Salutation to God who is beyond place. (4)

Salutation to God who is beyond deeds. Salutation to God who is beyond customary observances.

Salutation to God who is beyond name. Salutation to God who is beyond home. (5)

Salutation to the Impregnable. Salutation to the Fearless.

Salutation to the Immutable. Salutation to the Infallible. (6)

Salutation to God who is beyond colour and form. Salutation to God who is beyond beginning.

Salutation to the Impenertrable. Salutation to the Unfathomable. (7)

Salutation to the Impenertrable. Salutation to the Indestructible.

Salutation to the Liberator. Salutation to the Inestimable. (8)

Salutation to the Unique. Salutation to the Multifarious.

Salutation to God who is beyond element. Salutation to God who does not require any Immolation. (9)

Salutation to God who Salutation to God who is beyond ritual ceremonies. Salutation to the Indubitable.

does not belong to any country. Salutation to the Unattired. (10)

Salutation to God who is beyond name. Salutation to God who is beyond sensual desires.

Salutation to the Unsubstantial. Salutation to the Unbruised. (11)

Salutation to the Immovable. Salutation to the Unsubstantial.

This is just overview, I can tell u more

Zazaban
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Postby Zazaban » Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:19 pm

That's interesting, but we are not sikh, nor do we have any desire to become sikh. We do not believe that Sikhism is the "one path which tells you all about god". I'm not sure if you are trying to convert us or not, but if you are I ask you to leave. If not I hope you learn more about the Faith, understand it's not just a type of Islam, and some of the details, since you do not appear to know very much at all.

<hr>
Note from moderator: I need to clarify that Zazaban's statement here, "if you are I ask you to leave," is his personal expression and is not a request by or on my behalf, nor I believe by that of the other moderator Brett. (Zazaban has kindly agreed to assist us by deleting spam, but is not a site administrator.) Thanks, -Jonah, 10/2/06
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.
~ Bahá'u'lláh

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:46 pm

Zazaban,

By the way, I'm wondering: are you a Baha'i Zazaban (did you sign a card)?

To Sikhism: While the Baha'is have respect for the Sikhs (as the quote by 'Abdu'l-Baha that Brett and I pointed to you to illustrates), our Faith does teach that there is one God, and further we believe to have the teachings that will guide us to Him. Before becoming a Baha'i, one has to investigate the claim of all the major world religons, which Baha'is have done. We have found Baha'u'llah to be the Messenger of God that everyone has been waiting for (at least every member of the major world religions).

What Sikhism does—tries to create unity between different religions—is very praiseworthy, but the Baha'i Faith accomplishes this to a greater extent. Also unity between races, etc.


Zazaban wrote:That's interesting, but we are not sikh, nor do we have any desire to become sikh. We do not believe that Sikhism is the "one path which tells you all about god". I'm not sure if you are trying to convert us or not, but if you are I ask you to leave. If not I hope you learn more about the Faith, understand it's not just a type of Islam, and some of the details, since you do not appear to know very much at all.

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Postby Zazaban » Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:30 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:Zazaban,

By the way, I'm wondering: are you a Baha'i Zazaban (did you sign a card)?

I am a pending Baha'i. I probably will become a Baha'i in the future, but it need some study and soul searching before I do it. I also need to get over somee nasty habits. :oops:
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh

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Postby brettz9 » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:13 pm

(Sorry this was a posting earlier in this thread that I accidentally deleted just now, due to it appearing for some reason in duplicate.)

Although it is obviously false when Majnun repeatedly and deliberately says Baha'i belief does not include a belief in God, please, people, let's not get drawn into Majnun's purposely inciting assertions here. If he continues in this line, purporting to be a Baha'i, I intend to delete his posts (with Jonah's blessing) given his sad history at this board of making such statements despite all that has been presented to him to the contrary.

I will address the question about the meaning of the term "Unity of God" which he has raised, however, as it is an important question and has a multiplicity of interesting answers in our Writings.

I'll start with my own bulleted summary of my understanding of the quotations following.

"One God" means, in part,...
A. .. that God is Unknowable (#1) and "Oneness" in "Oneness of God" does not refer to something we can understand (#1-4). God is even above oneness (#3), but we say He is One because oneness is presumed better than multiplicity. (#4)
B. ... that the Manifestation of God perfectly represents the will and attributes of the Unknowable to us (as far as we are capable), since we cannot know the Unknowable directly (#5). A tablet in the recent "Tabernacle of Unity" publication underscores this meaning as even more basic than bullet point D below.
C. ...that a believer in the Oneness of God does not distinguish between the Holy Manifestations (in Their stations) (#6)
D. ...all creation reflects the signs of God (but is not a "part" of God). (#7-9)

It is also interesting that our scriptures do not preclude the possibility of avowed followers of monotheistic religions (including even our own Faith) from practicing a disbelief in one God, through their actions or words (this is a whole other aspect we could go into, if there were interest).

1.
He is indeed a true believer in the unity of God who, in this Day, will regard Him as One immeasurably exalted above all the comparisons and likenesses with which men have compared Him.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, p. 336)


2.
"He is a true believer in Divine unity who, far from confusing duality with oneness, refuseth to allow any notion of multiplicity to becloud his conception of the singleness of God, who will regard the Divine Being as One Who, by His very nature, transcendeth the limitations of numbers."

(Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, sec. 84, pp. 166-167)


3.
"The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality"

('Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 113)


4.
"We affirm these names and attributes, not to prove the perfections of God, but to deny that He is capable of imperfections."

('Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 148)


5.
"The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same."
(Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, sec. 84, p. 167)


6.
"Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of his Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose."

(Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, p. 59)


7.
"He is really a believer in the Unity of God who recognizeth in each and every created thing the sign of the revelation of Him Who is the Eternal Truth, and not he who maintaineth that the creature is indistinguishable from the Creator."

(Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Baháu'lláh, p. 189)


8.
"All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, p. 166)


9.
"The organization of God is one; the evolution of existence is one; the divine system is one."

('Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 199)

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Postby palatadvor » Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:27 am

zazban i am not trying to convert you .............
I am angry with you after reading your views................here we are to talk about that true god not for conversions.............i waana tell abt god through way called sikhism. not to convert you

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Postby Jonah » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:12 am

Thank you for your participation, Sikhsm.

Do you have any questions for the members of this forum? If not, then perhaps it's time to close this thread.

Thanks, -Jonah

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:23 am

Sikhsm,

I want to say your presence introduces diversity into this forum, and we (Baha'is) appreciate your presence.

'Abdu'l-Baha (please tell me if you are unfamiliar with any Baha'i terms used) in "The Promulgation of Universal Peace" states that religion is meant to be the cause of peace and unity. If it becomes the cause of enmity, then it is better to abandon it:

    "Among the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh is His declaration that religion must be the cause of love and fellowship, must be the source of unity in the hearts of men. If religion becomes a cause of enmity and hatred, it is evident that the abolition of religion is preferable to its promulgation; for religion is a remedy for human ills. If a remedy should be productive of disease, it is certainly advisable to abandon it." (Source: http://bahai-library.com/writings/abdulbaha/pup/23/sec-6.html)


Further, we believe members of all religions should have friendly relations with each other. So this forum more than welcomes members from the Sikh community, as members of other faith-based communities.

'Abdu'l-Baha instructs that Baha'is "must have infinite love for each other, each preferring the other before himself." (Source: http://bahai-library.com/writings/abdulbaha/pup/13/sec-3.html) He isn't saying Baha'is should just love other Baha'is more than themselves, He is saying a Baha'i should prefer anyone—despite creed—above himself.

Just some thoughts...

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Postby Zazaban » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:21 pm

sikhsm wrote:zazban i am not trying to convert you .............
I am angry with you after reading your views................here we are to talk about that true god not for conversions.............i waana tell abt god through way called sikhism. not to convert you
I wasn't accusing you of anything. I was just saying I was not sure of your motives. Your posts are a bit vauge sometimes you see. (just a bit).
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh

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seal of prophets

Postby Owercrert » Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:30 am

I believe the Baha'i writings do speak of (minor) prophets appearing after Muhammad. I'm quite sure that Shoghi Effendi said the Imam Husayn was a prophet, though i can't pinpoint the exact reference.
Does this throw doubt on the Baha'i interpretation of Muhammad's designation 'seal of the prophets?

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Postby brettz9 » Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:44 am

Hello Richard,

By the way, welcome to the forum, as I don't think we had welcomed you earlier...

I think it would really be necessary to see any evidence about Imám Husayn being seen as a Prophet. I also cited a quotation earlier about there being at least no Manifestations of God since the time of Muhammad and the Báb (and lesser prophets have, to my knowledge, always promulgated the law of a specific Manifestation of God as they don't possess their own Book). Although one might interpret the following as only referring to excluding him as a Manifestation of God, it would seem to me that Shoghi Effendi would have clarified here if he were in fact a lesser prophet:

1673. Imam Husayn

"The names of those cited in Bahá'u'lláh's prayer in the Dispensation are quite correct as you have them.

"The Prophets 'regarded as One and the same person' include the Lesser Prophets as well, and not merely Those Who bring a 'Book'. The station is different, but they are Prophets and Their nature thus different from that of ours.

"In the prayer mentioned above Bahá'u'lláh identifies Himself with Imam Husayn. This does not make him a Prophet, but his position was very unique, and we know Bahá'u'lláh claims to be the 'return' of the Imam Husayn. He, in other words, identifies His Spirit with these Holy Souls gone before; that does not, of course, make Him in any way their reincarnation. Nor does it mean all of them were Prophets.

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, February 8, 1949)


As far as the Bahá'í interpretation of "Seal of the Prophets", the Bahá'í Writings might be seen as making both kinds of arguments, that the Prophet Muhammad may be seen:

1) ... as the last of the nabi (though admittedly the quotation as follows could conceivably be used instead to argue that the term "Seal of the Prophets" refers to a hyperbolic emphasis of the last of the Manifestations before the new cycle):
It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained and may, in a sense, be characterized as God's appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation `Seal of the Prophets' fully reveals and demonstrates its high station."

(Shoghi Effendi, World Order of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 107)

2) ...as identical in Spirit with the last Manifestation of God (which is only metaphorical, since we don't believe that there will ever be an end to the Manifestations of God--let me know if you need a source on this):
...yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term "Seal of the Prophets" to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muhammad, Himself, declared: "I am all the Prophets?" Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: "I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?" Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: "I am the first Adam" be incapable of saying also: "I am the last Adam"? For even as He regarded Himself to be the "First of the Prophets" — that is Adam — in like manner, the "Seal of the Prophets" is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the "First of the Prophets," He likewise is their "Seal."

(Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, par. 172)


But in essence, I do believe that Bahá'ís may overemphasize the point about the seal of the "nabi" at the expense of the arguments which are in fact in our Writings...

best wishes,
Brett

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:43 pm

brettz9 wrote:As far as the Bahá'í interpretation of "Seal of the Prophets", the Bahá'í Writings might be seen as making both kinds of arguments, that the Prophet Muhammad may be seen:

1) ... as the last of the nabi (though admittedly the quotation as follows could conceivably be used instead to argue that the term "Seal of the Prophets" refers to a hyperbolic emphasis of the last of the Manifestations before the new cycle)...

2) ...as identical in Spirit with the last Manifestation of God (which is only metaphorical, since we don't believe that there will ever be an end to the Manifestations of God--let me know if you need a source on this):
...yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term "Seal of the Prophets" to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muhammad, Himself, declared: "I am all the Prophets?" Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: "I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?" Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: "I am the first Adam" be incapable of saying also: "I am the last Adam"? For even as He regarded Himself to be the "First of the Prophets" — that is Adam — in like manner, the "Seal of the Prophets" is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the "First of the Prophets," He likewise is their "Seal."

But in essence, I do believe that Bahá'ís may overemphasize the point about the seal of the "nabi" at the expense of the arguments which are in fact in our Writings...


***Before I begin, I want to note that I am afraid I have confused some Muslim readers with some of my arguments. We Baha'is do believe that Muhammad is the seal of the prophets AND Messengers. From now on I will stick more to Baha'i terminology***

Baha'u'llah's station is clear. He calls Himself the “Sender of the Messengers” (mursil al-rusul). He is a Manifestation of God, as was the Bab and even Muhammad. However, we can see that Baha'u'llah's station is distinguished from the others as He has sent every Messenger since Adam.

Specifically, a prophet (nabi) is a Warner. Whereas the Messenger (rusul) is a Warner and a law giver. So Muhammad was not only a Prophet, but also a Messenger since He gave new laws.

Now, even though technically we can say that Muhammad was a Manifestation of God, more importantly He is known for being the last of the Warners (prophets). In fact, apparently in Muhammad's last sermon, "delivered on the Ninth Day of Dhul Hijjah 10 A.H in the Uranah Valley of mount Arafat," Muhammad says "No Prophet or Apostle will come after me." That is, He is the seal of the Prophets and of the Messengers. This is in accord with one of Baha'u'llah's Tablets:

    Tablet to Hasan-i-Sháhábadí

    O Hasan! Hearken unto the Call of Husayn Who hath been incarcerated
    in the Prison Fortress of ’Akká by reason of that which the hands of
    the heedless have wrought. If one were to question them, “by what
    reason have ye imprisoned Him?”, they would reply: “Verily, He hath
    come with a new Shariah and this new Shariah doth not accord with the
    Law under which we have been. To this matter testifieth our Book
    which is called the Qur’án, a Book that is from God, the Lord of all
    mankind. See that which the All-Merciful hath revealed therein:
    ‘Verily He is the Messenger of God, and the Seal of the Prophets.’”

    To this We reply: “Indeed thou speaketh the truth. We do testify that
    through Him, Messengership and Prophethood have both been sealed and
    any one claiming after Him this most exalted station is in manifest
    error
    . Nevertheless, O Questioner! Hearken unto My voice which sayeth:

    “Open thine eyes that thou mayest behold the Most Great Beauty,
    through Whom speaketh the Lord of divine decree. By God! Through Him
    the ‘Hour’ hath appeared, and the ‘Resurrection’ hath come to pass,
    and the ‘Moon’ hath been cleft asunder and thou wouldst behold all in
    a ‘continuing Regeneration’ if thou be of them that possess insight.

    “Verily, through His Advent hath come to be fulfilled the Advent
    about which glad tidings have been given by the Messengers of God
    from all eternity and there hath come to pass about which God hath
    revealed in the Qur’án: ‘On that Day they shall all rise before the
    Lord of mankind.’ Truly the Cycle of Prophethood hath been rolled up
    and He Who hath sent down the Prophets hath come, arrayed with a
    manifest and perspicuous sovereignty.”


As you can see, technically, we agree with Muslims that Muhammad was the last of the Messengers and Prophets. And Baha'u'llah agrees. But SURA XXXIII gives the promise of meeting God on the Day of Judgement:

"Their greeting on the day when they shall meet Him shall be "Peace!" And He hath got ready for them a noble recompense."

So here are the facts:

(1) Muslims are waiting for a Judgement Day, where they will meet God.

(2) Either this prophesy has to be taken figuratively or literally.

(3) A great many Muslims take it literally.

(4) Baha'is take it figuratively.

(5) If it is to be taken literally, then Baha'is are dead wrong.

(6) If it is to be taken symbolically, then Baha'is could be right. (And they have much evidence for why they might think that its true meaning is symbolic.)

Fact: the Koran says you can't see God. Baha'is would apply that to this verse.

Fact: hadith state that there will be a Mihdi or Qa'im. We Baha'is believe in the Qa'im (the Bab). The Qa'im (the Bab), after He appeared, told us to await Baha'u'llah's coming—echoing what Imam Ali says in the Sermon of the Gulf. So we turned to Baha'u'llah.

Now Muslims believe in a future Qa'im (or Mihdi). So we can just forget the whole "seal of the prophets" thing, because it might be confusing to some who are not used to Baha'i terminology like "Manifestation of God" (the Bab's and Baha'u'llah's station). So again, fact:

(1) A Man named the Bab announced that He was the promised Qa'im

(2) Most of the Muslims rejected Him and eventually put Him to death

(3) Hadith from respected Shi'a and Sunni sources say that the Qa'im will be put to death and that His worst enemies will be those who were awaiting Him. So the prophesies could have been fulfilled, as we can readily see that had Muslims instantly recognized the Qa'im, He wouldn't have been the true promised one. Because the hadith say that He will not be recognized by the majority and will be put to death! This is a logical statement.

Put all of this together, and we Baha'is have a strong case for believing that the Bab was the Qa'im. Well, that was in a nutshell and not even comprehensive, but it gives a taste of our beliefs.

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Re: Semi hidden messages

Postby uwoHXaCnf » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:33 am

majnun wrote:Dear Zabadan,

no problemo. If a person ever feels driven (controlled) by
his inner emotions, if he meditates on valley one and two,
this sort of pain should move away easyly.

The Bab was born on the first day of the year 1235hg.
In the reality, 1235 years have passed and this first day is
the first day of the 1236th year.

At the begining of chapter 9 of the Qur'an, where the bismillah is missing,
1235 verses have passed (do you see the parallel ?)
the bismillah has 19 letters, like the word wahid has an abjad of 19.
This indicates the birth date of the Bab messenger.

verse no 1267 from the start (9:32) says:
They want to put out ALLAH's light with their mouths, but ALLAH insists upon perfecting His light, in spite of the disbelievers.
(This verse has 60 arabic letters)


The added digits of the abjad values gives me 213.

ALLAH's light, it is the Bab, who they killed in this 1267th year.
This 1267th verse, counted from the start, indicate that year, exactly.

Now we have here the 1545 and 1546th word ALLAh, counted from the end of the Quran.

To find the index of any number, in relation with the prime numbers,
you take that number, minus the amount of prime number before it (+1 )

Now before 1545 there are exactly 243 prime numbers, therefore 1545 minus 244 = 1301, this is the index of number 1545.

Now 1301 is also the 212th prime number.
212 is the name of the BAB, numerically expressed with the
abjad system as 2-1-2 = B-A- B.


the next verse 9:33 says:

He is the One who sent His messenger* with the guidance and the religion of truth, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.

This verse has 60 arabic letters
The added digits of the abjad values gives me 212 (again!)

5+6+1+3+7+1+1+2+6+3+2+6+6+3+5+2+1+
3+5+4+1+6+4+1+5+1+3+8+1+3+1+9+5+2+
5+7+3+1+1+3+4+1+5+2+3+5+6+3+6+2+2+
5+1+3+4+3+2+2+6+5 = 212

212 = letters B-A-B. "His messenger" is name here, numerically.

The 212th prime number on the table is 1301.

Both verses may signal the year 60 (1260) when his mission started.

Outside this numbering "science", the text of these 2 verses
clearly talk about the BAB.

Baha'u'llah discusses those two verses in the Iquan.

Another fun thing happens on the verse where number 19 is mentionned
in chapter 74 of the Quran.
If you add all the digits BEFORE the word 19, the total is, if you take the
Submission site corrected text: 1267.
It you include the number 19 (taseat echar) , the total is 1301, and this again is the name of the BAB, the 212th prime number.

The abjad of 19 writen in letters is 1105, and addding its digits gives 34.
You may find amazing that 1105 is the 2nd Carmichael number, but
I dont see now what is the direct relation with our affair. But I remember that adding the digits of verse 1235 (last in chapter 8) gives 1105. I would have to check.


A last thing,
This verse 9:33 is repeated word for word at chapter 61:9.
from 9:33 to 61:9 included, there is exactly 3903 verses.
That is 1301 tree times.
It may means that after the BAB, 3 persons as important as himself
will come before the "entry by troops".
I say this simply because from 9:33 to 61:9, there is 1441 word ALLAH, and this correspond exactly to the year 2020-21 ad, the year we say will be the "entry by troops". Its just a suppositon from my braincells though.

The Submission site talks about us under the file "Satan", ah ah ah.
I used to like their aproach years ago, but that was before I learned
what happened in Shiraz in the year 1260-67. Concerning Guru Nanak or other messenger, I did not look in that sense, but I suppose we may find clear evidence inserted inside the Quran, who knows ? I hope what is mentioned here is not blasphemy, lol.

All this seems clear to me.

MJ.


very good. very very good. Only one thing, I dont remember a single prophet - not one prophet indulging in numerology and explaining what Allah wanted to tell us in this foolish manner. Not one tradition tell us this. The Prophet, Ali and everyone else were experts in Arabic, but they did not indulge.

The concept of Abjad has no status in Islam if you know what I mean. It is a man made concept. Besides the miracle of the Quran does not lie in number jugglery, it lies in its strong concepts and the fact that despite the passage of time, it meets with the requirements of the time.

Regards
Ayaz

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Postby FruccalFrilia » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:08 am


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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:27 pm

Argos wrote:http://bahai-library.com/?file=cameron_disconnected_letters_nineteen


This is the problem when you have Western writers who have no clue about Islam and significance of its elements writing and commenting upon it.

Read this - it came from the article link you sent...

"It is recorded in the hadith that the fifth Imam Muhammad-Baqir said that each of these surihs with the disconnected letters means a specific period of time when something will happen to a great, high-ranking, outstanding person in Islam who is descended from Ban-Hashim.[28]

It was exactly 71 years after Muhammad's Divine Summons that the Imam Husayn was brutally killed."

My comments - dont accept this tradition from Imam Baqir till the time we see its reference from the book it is taken. Bahais have an irritating habit of quoting stuff from the Quran and from traditions without giving its reference or in places where they do, most of it is wrong.

Secondly, Imam Hussain was martyred in 61 AH. I dont know what is meant by Mohammed Divine Summons. if it refers to his first revelation, then 74 years would have passed since that event. If you are referring to his death, then 51 years have passed. So the theory of "exactly 71 years" goes for a full toss.

Why do the Bahais misinterpret things and present them as if it is the whole truth. Very very irritating. Please ask the author to check his references. I did not even bother to read the rest of the article. Also, you should not post stuff till the time YOU have verified its authenticity.

Numerology is fascinating. That is why lot of people get attracted to it. But it has no standing in Islam. If this was to be such a great proof of the veracity of the Bab, why did the Bab not raise this issue himself? Why did the Prophet never use abjad to establish his claim?

Regards,

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Postby brettz9 » Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:37 am

Dear Ayaz,

Welcome to the forum...

Western writers who have no clue about Islam


As it seems from your posts that you are a Bahá'í, while it may certainly be true that Westerners or this person in particular may have a limited understanding of Islám, we ought also consider the fact that our Writings speak to the need of Bahá'í scholarship comprising a wide spectrum of knowledge and insights. Certainly, we ought to welcome interest and exploration of Islám (as well as the Bahá'í Faith) by Western scholars, no less by believers from these backgrounds, even if inevitable shortcomings may arise and need to be addressed.

But as far as sources for the tradition you question, the author himself cites it as being p. 52 of "Colonel Anaitullah Sohrab, Lessons of Teaching...This book contains lessons from the Bahá'í Summer School in the year 106 B.E. (1950 A.D.) in Isfahan and was published by the Institute of National Bahá'í Prints in 117 B.E. (1961 A.D.). This book was given to this writer by Parviz Mohebali. It is written in Persian and was translated into English with the help of Parviz Mohebali and Shoaullah Motamedi." The same work is cited as the source for 71 years after the Prophet's Divine Summons, so maybe that work could shed some light on the issue. As with other prophecies, the use of "year" could be in solar or lunar years, could be an approximation/process, or could have various starting points. 'Abdu'l-Bahá's interpretation of prophecies in the Bible and Qur'án (such as He describes in Some Answered Questions) similarly uses "year" to refer to lunar or solar years.

So, this author has cited his sources, and if you can get a copy of the source he cited here, let us know how it turns out. We could not possibly verify the authenticity of all of the statements of all of the works at this website. If it is a sincere attempt at scholarship, I believe Jonah has been open to hosting it. He is not vouching for the truth of it all. The Bahá'í administrative institutions have not sought to enforce general review over documents by Bahá'ís on the internet, so there is no "should" from the perspective of our official teachings at least. But again, feel free to verify the sources if you can and let us know.

As far as numerology, while you are correct that it is of relatively little importance nor is it essential to our beliefs...

"...it is absolutely essential that the teachings should not be confused with the obscure ideas related to numerology and astrology and the like. Individuals interested in them are free to believe in and credit such ideas and to make any inferences and deductions they desire from them, but under no circumstances are they expected to identify them with the principles and teachings of the Cause. We must at this stage preserve the purity and sanctity of the Bahá'í teachings. I will pray that you may be guided in your efforts, and may succeed in safeguarding and promoting the interests of our beloved Faith."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, December 26, 1928: Spiritualism, Reincarnation and Related Subjects)

"There is nothing in the teachings which leads us to believe numerology or astrology are needed by the believers to guide them in any way."

(From a letter dated June 25, 1950 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer: Spiritualism, Psychic Phenomena and Related Subjects)


... but this does not mean that it is of absolutely no importance:

"The Master has said that there is a certain amount of truth in numerology, physiognomy etc. but it is too much exaggerated by those who advocate them."

(From a letter dated October 27, 1926 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer: Spiritualism, Psychic Phenomena and Related Subjects, emphasis added)

"The Bab made use of the numerical value of words to symbolize spiritual concepts. The Persian for 'The Letters of the Living' is 'Huruf-i-Hay'; there were 18 of these first disciples of the Bab and the numerical value of the word 'Hay' is 18. These 18 letters, together with the Bab Himself, constitute the first 'Vahid' of the Revelation. The word 'Vahid' has a numerical value of 19, and means 'Unity'. It symbolizes the unity of God, and thus the number 19 itself symbolizes the unity of God, and it was used by the Bab as the basis for His Calendar. One may also note the reference on 'The Synopsis and Codification of the Kitab-i-Aqdas' to 19 or 95 mithqals of gold or silver in connection with the laws of marriage and of Huququ'llah."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, November 13, 1980, emphasis added)

"Concerning the number nine: The Bahá'ís reverence this for two reasons, first because it is considered by those who are interested in numbers as a sign of perfection. The second consideration which is the more important one is that it is the numerical value for the word 'Baha'. (B=2, h=5, a=1, and there is an accent at the end of the word which is also = 1; the 'a' after the 'B' is not written in Persian so it does not count.) In the Semitic languages--both Arabic and Hebrew--every letter of the alphabet had a numerical value, so instead of using figures to denote numbers they used letters and compounds of letters. Thus every word had both a literal meaning and also a numerical value. This practice is no more in use but during the time of Bahá'u'lláh and the Bab it was quite in vogue among the educated classes, and we find it very much used in the Bayan. As the word Baha also stood for the number nine it could be used interchangeably with it.

"Besides these two significances the number nine has no other meaning. It is however enough to make the Bahá'ís use it when an arbitrary number is to be chosen."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, February 19, 1932, emphasis added)


(Note that all of the above quotations are taken from the compilation, Lights of Guidance.)

best wishes,
Brett

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Postby FruccalFrilia » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:30 pm

I posted that thinking you would be interested in any connections not as an authoritative interpretation. Certian Bahais like to use proofs relating to dates and such because it it can be a strong point made when arguing for validity of Faith.

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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:44 pm

Argos wrote:I posted that thinking you would be interested in any connections not as an authoritative interpretation. Certian Bahais like to use proofs relating to dates and such because it it can be a strong point made when arguing for validity of Faith.


As I mentioned earlier, when it has no standing in Islam, why mention it. Neither did the Prophet (pbuh) use it nor did the Bab use it. So why the we using it as a proof for the Bab and Bahaullah!

Regards,


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