Did Joseph Smith prophesy of Baha'u'llah?

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hugobjzq
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Did Joseph Smith prophesy of Baha'u'llah?

Postby hugobjzq » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:22 pm

Shoghi Effendi said that Joseph Smith "Was a Seer, not a Prophet minor or otherwise". Now, what is the difference between a Prophet and a Seer?

Well...

1) A nabi (minor prophet) is under the shadow of a Major Prophet, and is unfallible, but only because he is under the shadow of a Major Prophet (razool). Prophets (major and minor) are men only.

2) A Seer is an inspired individual (man or woman) who can prophesy, see visions, and receive Revelations. But they are not Major Prophets (sinless and infallible) nor minor prophets (infallible). There are female Seers as well as male Seers. Fatimah was a Seer (she had visions). Mary was a Seer; because she had a vision of Gabriel who told her she would be the mother of the Son of God. In Iran, Seers are called UWAYI (literally: "Revelators"). Shaykh Ahmad was one such Uwahi. He had visions of Muhammad and the 12 Imaams.

You can read about Joseph Smith prophesying of Baha'u'llah at:
http://www.angelfire.com/mo/baha/1891.html

Judge for yourself if he prophesied of Baha'u'llah or not. After you read it, post your replies in this thread as to whether you think he did or not, and give your reasons.
Darrick Evenson

Zazaban
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Postby Zazaban » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:51 pm

JS predicted that if he lived to be something he'd see the face of the son of man, well whatever the year it came to was 1890 and that was the year that the first americans saw Baha'u'llah. interesting huh? BTW, was Abdul 'l Baha and/or Shoghi Effendi seers?
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.
~ Bahá'u'lláh

Zazaban
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Postby Zazaban » Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:22 pm

I think it's likely that JS uncovered some ancient lost revelation but didn't translate it all properly.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh

Keyvan
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Postby Keyvan » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:07 am

lol, how did ericson get back on? its cool.

joseph smith was not a Prophet. you know the answer to this already,so i guess you are taking a poll for one of your little webpages.

what you refer to is a pilgrims note that says he is a seer....low level kind of psychic/communicator who mixed things up with his own crazy thoughts

i personally believe that this is true given the level of how his predicitons lined up with Baha'i History.

but OBVIOUSLY this was not relevent or important enough for the Cause for The Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l Baha, or Shoghi Effendi to put into writing.

mormons are kind of falling apart i see it, as the recent DNA studies kind of disproved their beliefs. so chill out darrick.

this interperetation may have someee validity, other of your interperetations are kind of out there in my opinion. it seems like you want to please every religion and think you alone have a marketing tactic to get to everyone.

how about instead we follow the ordainances of the Universal House of Justice to teach the Cause in a NON FORCEFUL WAY...afterall my friend, it is the Divine Guidence on Earth

hugobjzq
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Joseph Smith was a Seer

Postby hugobjzq » Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:37 pm

Keyvan,

1. Where did Shoghi Effendi define a Seer as a "psychic communicator with crazy thoughts"? This is your own spin. The concept of SEER is very old is Islaam, and refers to a Muhadath, like Shaykh Asa'i, was he "crazy" too?

2. DNA and Indian origins repudiates "some" Mormon interpretations of the Book of Mormon, but not others.

3. You state that since Baha'u'llah nor SE wrote about Joseph Smith, he is of no importance? What do you qualify that argument upon? The blue sky?


what you refer to is a pilgrims note that says he is a seer....low level kind of psychic/communicator who mixed things up with his own crazy thoughts

i personally believe that this is true given the level of how his predicitons lined up with Baha'i History.

but OBVIOUSLY this was not relevent or important enough for the Cause for The Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l Baha, or Shoghi Effendi to put into writing.

mormons are kind of falling apart i see it, as the recent DNA studies kind of disproved their beliefs. so chill out darrick.

this interperetation may have someee validity, other of your interperetations are kind of out there in my opinion. it seems like you want to please every religion and think you alone have a marketing tactic to get to everyone.

how about instead we follow the ordainances of the Universal House of Justice to teach the Cause in a NON FORCEFUL WAY...afterall my friend, it is the Divine Guidence on Earth

Baha'i Warrior
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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:51 pm

From "Pilgrim's notes about Shoghi Effendi" by Ramona Brown (http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?file=brown_memories_abdulbaha):

    "Joseph smith was a seer, not a Prophet of God, neither major nor minor Prophet. He had a high standard... but the Bahá'ís have a higher standard coupled with God's power that comes direct from God. for this age."

What is the Baha'i position on pilgrims notes? 'Abdu'l-Baha states that they are not authoritative:

    "Thou hast written concerning the pilgrims and pilgrim's notes. Any narrative that is not authenticated by a Text should not be trusted. Narratives, even if true, cause confusion. For the people of Baha, the Text, and only the Text, is authentic."

    (Translated extract from a previously-untranslated Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Baha)

    Source: http://bahai-library.com/uhj/calamity.p-notes.html

And what would Shoghi Effendi himself say about the aforementioned pilgrim's note?

    "Shoghi Effendi has often said that the notes of the pilgrims should be for their own personal use and bear absolutely no authority. What he desires to convey to the friends at large he will always say in his general letters."

    (Written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, dated 26 February 1933)


So it is clear that unless the Baha'i Texts themselves state that Joseph Smith "was a seer," then it is not the official Baha'i position that Joseph Smith was a seer.

hugobjzq
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Baha'is MAY believe that Joseph Smith was a Seer!!!!!

Postby hugobjzq » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:38 pm

Pilgrim's Notes are remembrances written down by Baha'i pilgrim's of things they heard AB or SE say. The notes from which JS is called a Seer are from official notes taken at a meeting of Shoghi Effendi with the International Baha'i Council, taken down by Jesse Revell, the Sec. of the IBC at the time.

Baha'is are FREE to believe that Joseph Smith was a Seer, or disbelieve it. But Shoghi Effendi believed it.

There are Baha'i books and literature which call such-and-such a Hopi or Navajo seer a "Prophet" and even 'Manifestation of God". Yet, these seers are never mentioned in the Holy Writings, nor are they even mentioned as Seer (much less Prophets) in any Pilgrim's Note?

Baha'is will have (and are having) NO success teaching Mormons the Faith without using the prophecies of the SEER Joseph Smith. And they CAN use them.
Darrick Evenson


Baha'i Warrior wrote:From "Pilgrim's notes about Shoghi Effendi" by Ramona Brown (http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?file=brown_memories_abdulbaha):

    "Joseph smith was a seer, not a Prophet of God, neither major nor minor Prophet. He had a high standard... but the Bahá'ís have a higher standard coupled with God's power that comes direct from God. for this age."

What is the Baha'i position on pilgrims notes? 'Abdu'l-Baha states that they are not authoritative:

    "Thou hast written concerning the pilgrims and pilgrim's notes. Any narrative that is not authenticated by a Text should not be trusted. Narratives, even if true, cause confusion. For the people of Baha, the Text, and only the Text, is authentic."

    (Translated extract from a previously-untranslated Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Baha)

    Source: http://bahai-library.com/uhj/calamity.p-notes.html

And what would Shoghi Effendi himself say about the aforementioned pilgrim's note?

    "Shoghi Effendi has often said that the notes of the pilgrims should be for their own personal use and bear absolutely no authority. What he desires to convey to the friends at large he will always say in his general letters."

    (Written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, dated 26 February 1933)

So it is clear that unless the Baha'i Texts themselves state that Joseph Smith "was a seer," then it is not the official Baha'i position that Joseph Smith was a seer.

Baha'i Warrior
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Re: Baha'is MAY believe that Joseph Smith was a Seer!!!!!

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:22 am

Darrick_Evenson wrote:Baha'is are FREE to believe that Joseph Smith was a Seer, or disbelieve it.


Yes...

Darrick_Evenson wrote:But Shoghi Effendi believed it.


According to hearsay. Whatever Shoghi Effendi "desires to convey to the friends at large he will always say in his general letters," and furthermore he "has often said that the notes of the pilgrims should be for their own personal use and bear absolutely no authority." Therefore, Shoghi Effendi could have believed that Joseph Smith was a "seer," or he could have not believed so. The pilgrim's note can always be wrong, and even if it isn't, we can't use pilgrim's notes alone to definitively show what Shoghi Effendi believed.

Darrick_Evenson wrote:Baha'is will have (and are having) NO success teaching Mormons the Faith without using the prophecies of the SEER Joseph Smith. And they CAN use them.


By all means.


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