?Young lady in distress, or even danger?

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Postby brettz9 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:55 pm

Unless Jonah deleted a post for some reason (and I know I didn't, certainly not intentionally), it is possible that the person seeking help deleted their own post.

Also, FYI, there may be some posts here (like one I just deleted now) from someone saying something innocent enough (in this case, just I loved your website), but their profile's web address is some sex site, which they hope people may check out, since the forum moderator may not know to delete the post when it doesn't outwardly look like spam.

best wishes,

Site Admin
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Postby Jonah » Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:01 am

Hi, Richard. I don't recall seeing the post you mentioned. However, I have deleted a lot of spam, some of which appeared to be young women looking for romance. The key is often how many URLs were in the post -- and I don't recall deleting any post that didn't include a link to a "singles" site or some-such. I sure do hope I didn't mis-interpret a real person's post!


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Postby brettz9 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:19 pm

God bless you, Richard...

If you decide to stick around, you are most welcome...

Yes, this site was historically academic, but Jonah changed the name to reflect a shift away from a strictly academic site. But still the discussions here tend to come from that angle, and unfortunately also periodically reflect the modern-day academic tendency for argumentation (the attempt to impose on Bahá'ís divisive labels such as "liberal" or "fundamentalist" is one distressing example). Without the spiritual, the intellect can bring on, as 'Abdu'l-Bahá (Son of the Prophet-Founder of the Bahá'í Faith) stated, a kind of madness.

For a more balanced discussion, you might want to visit the forums at http://forums.delphiforums.com/planetbahai . My sense is that the latter's strength comes from the participation of more women, who, I believe, tend not to be as given to the folly of oneupmanship and possess strengths to divert argumentative discussions away from fruitless bickering. In defense of this board, however, I do believe there has been an increase in the diversity of participation of late, and gems may turn up in unexpected places. I also think the board is what we make it to be, so don't feel your posts have to fit a certain mold.

best wishes,

Baha'i Warrior
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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:02 pm


your heart is in the right place, but trust me she probably wasn't even a "she." it's spam, someone pretends to be a girl (many times foreign) and tries to get your credit card number. a lot of times you will see these messages in your inbox (usually in the spam folder). ignore them at all costs and don't visit the web site (linked URL) that they are trying to promote as they can usually get your info that way. it's very easy to tell when the person is a spammer. it is usually dangerous too.

Baha'i Warrior
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Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:01 pm


Thank you for you kind words. And regarding something you said in a previous post:

richard wrote:By the way, a good friend of mine is a Bahai member and i have made some contact with Bahai oriented websites to get a better sense of their spiritual flavor. So far my sense is that this site is more academic and intellectual than spiritually involved interpersonally, but it may be my lack of familiarity with its communicational logistics. And, most of my 71 years have been intellectulally slanted but for the last thirty years my discretionary time has been devoted to integrating my spiritual heart and soul with my intellectualizing mind in an attempt to bring spiritual goodness to any intellectul pretensions of knowledge and wisdom i might have.

I agree with you on that. It seems to me (in my limited twenty years of existence) that "academic" often entails an acceptance of many controversial views and deceptive questions that many times seem to do more harm than good in terms of the image of the Baha'i Faith, and people who call themselves "Baha'is" are, unfortunately, many times the perpetrators. However, Jonah (the moderator) does at least set some limits, plus this seems to me to be the most active forum on the web. Like for example, http://www.bahaindex.com gets responses about once every week, etc.

By the way, from what you said it sounds like you have been a Baha'i for a while, and I'm sure this forum can benefit from any wisdom that you might share.

Best regards

Sean H.
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richard: Maslow and Graves

Postby Sean H. » Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:46 pm


As usual, I greatly enjoyed your comments, and was especially pleased to see that you've studied Maslow's ideas about spirituality and personal transformation!

As you may know, Maslow spent years arguing theory with Clare Graves, the "inventor" of the ideas used in Spiral Dynamics, and eventually near the end, Maslow was supposedly won over by most of what Graves had to say about the nature of human consciousness.

Here is some related material that you might enjoy.


"At each stage of human existence the adult man is off on his quest of his holy grail, the way of life he seeks by which to live. At his first level he is on a quest for automatic physiological satisfaction. At the second level he seeks a safe mode of living, and this is followed in turn, by a search for heroic status, for power and glory, by a search for ultimate peace; a search for material pleasure, a search for affectionate relations, a search for respect of self, and a search for peace in an incomprehensible world. And, when he finds he will not find that peace, he will be off on his ninth level quest. As he sets off on each quest, he believes he will find the answer to his existence. Yet, much to his surprise and much to his dismay, he finds at every stage that the solution to existence is not the solution he has come to find. Every stage he reaches leaves him disconcerted and perplexed. It is simply that as he solves one set of human problems he finds a new set in their place. The quest he finds is never ending."

-- Dr. Clare W. Graves


Levels of Existence, Forms of Being

"I am not saying in this conception of adult behavior that one style of being, one form of human existence is inevitably and in all circumstances superior to or better than another form of human existence, another style of being. What I am saying is that when one form of being is more congruent with the realities of existence, then it is the better form of living for those realities. And what I am saying is that when one form of existence ceases to be functional for the realities of existence then some other form, either higher or lower in the hierarchy, is the better form of living. I do suggest, however, and this I deeply believe is so, that for the overall welfare of total man's existence in this world, over the long run of time, higher levels are better than lower levels and that the prime good of any society's governing figures should be to promote human movement up the levels of human existence."

-- Dr. Clare W. Graves


The above quote from Gaves basically solves the problem with relativism in pluralist value systems.

Also see:


Don Beck was invited to S. Africa by Nelson Mandela to assist in the Truth and Reconciliation process to start the healing of that country of the evails of apartheid, so his ideas about Spiral Dynamics are "real world

Hre is a graphics intensive web site that explains "integral" SD:


Here is Ken Wilber's "take" on the historical problems with western civilization turning Christianity away from being a spiritual movement, and toward a political/military force (go about 1/2 way down) to where there is a question (in bold text) that starts "Fair enough. ... How could a whole civilization miss the point for so long when it had expressions of the idea in Plato, the Corpus Hermiticum, Neoplatonism, mystical Christianity, and so on?"

http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?o ... Itemid=244


Imagine if, the very day Buddha attained his enlightenment, he was taken out and hanged precisely because of his realization. and if any of his followers claimed to have the same realization, they were also hanged. Speaking for myself, I would find this something of a disincentive to practice.

But that's exactly what happened with Jesus of Nazareth. "Why do you stone me?" he asks at one point. "Is it for good deeds?" And the crowd responds, "No, it is because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God." The individual Atman is not allowed to realize that it is one with Brahman. "I and my Father are One"-among other complicated factors that realization got this gentleman crucified.

The reasons for this are involved, but the fact remains: as soon as any spiritual practitioner began to get too close to the realization that Atman and Brahman are one-that one's own mind is intrinsically one with primordial Spirit-then frighteningly severe repercussions usually followed.

Of course there were wonderful currents of Neoplatonic and other very high teachings operating in the background (and underground) in the West, but wherever the Church had political influence-and it dominated the Western scene for a thousand years-if you stepped over that line between Atman and Brahman, you were in very dangerous waters. St. John of the Cross and his friend St. Teresa of Avila stepped over the line, but couched their journeys in such careful and pious language they pulled it off, barely. Meister Eckhart stepped over the line, a little too boldly, and had his teachings officially condemned, which meant he wouldn't fry in hell but his words apparently would. Giordano Bruno stepped way over the line, and was burned at the stake. This is a typical pattern.

You say the reasons are complicated, and I'm sure they are, but could you briefly mention a few?
. . .

---end excerpt---

Another interesting article on how "paradigm shift" is realted to the the process of social change (from a systems theory perspective):

http://chinesefood.about.com/od/poultry ... tirfry.htm

oops that wasn't right, here is the right one:

http://www.sustainabilityinstitute.org/ ... Points.pdf

(linked from: http://www.sustainabilityinstitute.org/ ... apers.html )

As you probably have observed, a lot of systems theory sounds dry, but parts of it are very valuable in that it establishes a "holistic" approach to understanding human consciousness, which I think of as the "ecology" of consciousness.

A primer on basic integral definitions/concepts:


Warmest Regards,

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