"I am Jesus"

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simon

"I am Jesus"

Postby simon » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:00 pm

I refer to gleanings P.21, "As to the matter of names, Muhammed himself declared: "I am Jesus" ......".

I cannot find this anywhere in the Koran, apart from a reference to
surah 43:61 which doesn't seem to fit.

I have also come across a muslim forum where a perspn denies that "I am Jesus" is said by Muhammed, and thus denies Baha'u'llah's station,
so it is something that I'd like to get to the bottom of.

Any views / assistance would be appreciated

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Postby brettz9 » Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:29 am

Sorry, this may be inaccurate, not to mention convoluted, but I came across the following in a web search which I got the impression was referring to a tradition attributed to Muhammad (written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, but seemingly (to me at least) referencing an oral tradition of the Prophet Muhammad):

"The words of Abu Yazid Bustami given below, which are recorded in Tazkirat al-Auliya by Farid-ud-Din Attar, and are also found in other reliable works, are on this basis, as he says: `I am Adam, I am Seth, I am Noah, I am Abraham, I am Moses, I am Jesus, I am Muhammad, peace be upon him and upon all these brothers of his.'" (from http://tariq.bitshop.com/misconceptions/sufi/masil.htm )

Brett

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Postby brettz9 » Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:31 am

Also, FYI, the Gleanings quote from Bahá'u'lláh is originally from par. 20 of the Íqán...

Brett

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Sun May 29, 2005 11:36 pm

wow brett, ive been looking for that Hadith everywhere.

I even asked Moojan Momen HIMSELF, probably the greatest Bahai-Muhammadean studies scholor alive, and he couldnt find it. good job.

Guest

Postby Guest » Mon May 30, 2005 5:23 am

I think this is a Shi'i Hadith, not a Sunni Hadith. And also, Baha'u'llah may have been paraphrasing something Muhammad (PBUH & HF) said, that was not exactly "I am Jesus". 'Abdu'l-Baha does the same thing in I think Promulgation of Universal Peace about the Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH & HF) Mission. He said the Prophet first addressed His people and asked them why they did not believe in Moses, and accept the Torah, etc.

I don't believe there is any indication that the Prophet actually said those things exactly, but the message was of that nature.

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Postby Hasan » Mon May 30, 2005 10:47 am

Anonymous wrote:I think this is a Shi'i Hadith, not a Sunni Hadith. And also, Baha'u'llah may have been paraphrasing something Muhammad (PBUH & HF) said, that was not exactly "I am Jesus". 'Abdu'l-Baha does the same thing in I think Promulgation of Universal Peace about the Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH & HF) Mission. He said the Prophet first addressed His people and asked them why they did not believe in Moses, and accept the Torah, etc.

I don't believe there is any indication that the Prophet actually said those things exactly, but the message was of that nature.


Bahá'u'lláh explained the meaning of "first", "last", "seal", "resurrection". No problem if this is a Shiah statement, the important is what He explained.

I don't see any problem with the statement of Bahá'u'lláh "I am Jesus", yes there is a resurrection not reencarnation. 'Abdu'l-Bahá explained this in Selections # 156:

156. O thou servant of the Holy Threshold! We have read what flowed out from thy pen in thy love for God, and found the contents of thy letter most pleasing. My hope is that through the bounty of God, the breaths of the All-Merciful will at all times refresh and renew thee.

Thou didst write of reincarnation. A belief in reincarnation goeth far back into the ancient history of almost all peoples, and was held even by the philosophers of Greece, the Roman sages, the ancient Egyptians, and the great Assyrians. Nevertheless such superstitions and sayings are but absurdities in the sight of God.

The major argument of the reincarnationists was this, that according to the justice of God, each must receive his due: whenever a man is afflicted with some calamity, for example, this is because of some wrong he hath committed. But take a child that is still in its mother's womb, the embryo but newly formed, and that child is blind, deaf, lame, defective -- what sin hath such a child committed, to deserve its afflictions? They answer that, although to outward seeming the child, still in the womb, is guilty of no sin -- nevertheless he perpetrated some wrong when in his previous form, and thus he came to deserve his punishment.

These individuals, however, have overlooked the following point. If creation went forward according to only one rule, how could the all-encompassing Power make Itself felt? How could the Almighty be the One Who 'doeth as He pleaseth and ordaineth as He willeth'?[1]
[1 The Báb, cf. Some Answered Questions, chap. XIII.]

Briefly, a return is indeed referred to in the Holy Scriptures, but by this is meant the return of the qualities, conditions, effects, perfections, and inner realities of the lights which recur in every dispensation. The reference is not to specific, individual souls and identities. 184

It may be said, for instance, that this lamplight is last night's come back again, or that last year's rose hath returned to the garden this year. Here the reference is not to the individual reality, the fixed identity, the specialized being of that other rose, rather doth it mean that the qualities, the distinctive characteristics of that other light, that other flower, are present now, in these. Those perfections, that is, those graces and gifts of a former springtime are back again this year. We say, for example, that this fruit is the same as last year's; but we are thinking only of the delicacy, bloom and freshness, and the sweet taste of it; for it is obvious that that impregnable centre of reality, that specific identity, can never return.

What peace, what ease and comfort did the Holy Ones of God ever discover during Their sojourn in this nether world, that They should continually seek to come back and live this life again? Doth not a single turn at this anguish, these afflictions, these calamities, these body blows, these dire straits, suffice, that They should wish for repeated visits to the life of this world? This cup was not so sweet that one would care to drink of it a second time.

Therefore do the lovers of the Abha Beauty wish for no other recompense but to reach that station where they may gaze upon Him in the Realm of Glory, and they walk no other path save over desert sands of longing for those exalted heights. They seek that ease and solace which will abide forever, and those bestowals that are sanctified beyond the understanding of the worldly mind.

When thou lookest about thee with a perceptive eye, thou wilt note that on this dusty earth all humankind are suffering. Here no man is at rest as a reward for what he hath performed in former lives; nor is there anyone so blissful as seemingly to pluck the fruit of bygone anguish. 185 And if a human life, with its spiritual being, were limited to this earthly span, then what would be the harvest of creation? Indeed, what would be the effects and the outcomes of Divinity Itself? Were such a notion true, then all created things, all contingent realities, and this whole world of being -- all would be meaningless. God forbid that one should hold to such a fiction and gross error.

For just as the effects and the fruitage of the uterine life are not to be found in that dark and narrow place, and only when the child is transferred to this wide earth do the benefits and uses of growth and development in that previous world become revealed -- so likewise reward and punishment, heaven and hell, requital and retribution for actions done in this present life, will stand revealed in that other world beyond. And just as, if human life in the womb were limited to that uterine world, existence there would be nonsensical, irrelevant -- so too if the life of this world, the deeds here done and their fruitage, did not come forth in the world beyond, the whole process would be irrational and foolish.

Know then that the Lord God possesseth invisible realms which the human intellect can never hope to fathom nor the mind of man conceive. When once thou hast cleansed the channel of thy spiritual sense from the pollution of this worldly life, then wilt thou breathe in the sweet scents of holiness that blow from the blissful bowers of that heavenly land.

The Glory rest upon thee, and upon whosoever turneth toward and gazeth on the Kingdom of the All-Glorious, which the Lord hath sanctified beyond the understanding of those who are neglectful of Him, and hath hid from the eyes of those who show Him pride. 186

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 184)

Keyvan

Postby Keyvan » Mon May 30, 2005 1:57 pm

I asked Moojan Momen about this.
you must understand. Baha'u'llah isnt neccessarily "explaining" these terms in the Iqan

He was trying to give figurative spiritutal understanding. There are different explainations for these terms in many writings by Bahai scholors and Bab'i scholors of the past, different from that of the Iqan.

such explainations do not have exclusive or contradictory meanings

I see the Iqan as Baha'u'llah's introduction for Muhammadeans to the idea of progressive revelation in a context familiar to them.

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Postby Hasan » Mon May 30, 2005 11:29 pm

Keyvan wrote:I asked Moojan Momen about this.
you must understand. Baha'u'llah isnt neccessarily "explaining" these terms in the Iqan

He was trying to give figurative spiritutal understanding. There are different explainations for these terms in many writings by Bahai scholors and Bab'i scholors of the past, different from that of the Iqan.

such explainations do not have exclusive or contradictory meanings

I see the Iqan as Baha'u'llah's introduction for Muhammadeans to the idea of progressive revelation in a context familiar to them.


He was trying?

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Re: "I am Jesus"

Postby Ahsan_al_Hadees » Sat May 24, 2008 10:15 am

Brett n Keyvan,

I dont think so there is such a report in which Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) is saying that He is Jesus. Instead there is one report in Shia books in which Imam Mahdi would say that he is "Moses...Jesus...Mohammad...Ali".

Regards,
Ahsan

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Re: "I am Jesus"

Postby Ahsan_al_Hadees » Sat May 24, 2008 10:37 am

Brett n Keyvan,

I got the references. I was right. There is no saying of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) that He is Jesus.

Hazrat Bayazid Bistami, may Allah have mercy on him, has said:

I am Ibrahim, Moses, and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be on him. (Tazkaratul Aulia, the Tazkarah of Bayazid Bistami)

This is the reference I am talking about:

Imam Baqar, may Allah have mercy on him, has stated:

The Imam Mahdi will say: 'O ye people, if any of you wishes to behold Ibrahim and Ishmael, then let him note that I am Ibrahim and Ishmael. If any of you desires to behold Moses and Joshua, then let him note that I am Moses and Joshua. If any of you desires to see Isa and Simon, then let him note I am Isa and Simon. If any of you desires to behold Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, and Ameerul Momineen Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, then let him note that I am Muhammad Mustafa, peace and blessings of Allah be on him, and Ameerul Momineen Ali, may Allah be pleased with him. (Baharul Anwar, Vol. XIII, p. 209)

Member "Guest" is right. This is Shia narration. Imam Baqir ( AS ) is the grandson of Hadhrat Imam Hussain ( AS ) and the father of Hadhrat Imam Jafar Sadiq ( AS ).

We use this reference for Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian ( PBUH ).

Did Bahaullah really say that Holy Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) said that "I am Jesus"?

Regards,
Ahsan

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Re: "I am Jesus"

Postby brettz9 » Sat May 24, 2008 10:19 pm

Hello all,

Looking at the previous discussion on the topic, it seems there may have been some lack of clarity on the relation of Shi'ih traditions and the Baha'i Faith. While the Baha'i Faith has done away with reliance on traditions, given their potential for fallibility, Baha'u'llah does quote from them, and from our Writings, it is very clear that Baha'is uphold the Divinity of the Imamate, even if it was unfortunately obscured by the usurpation of Umar:

the essential prerequisites of admittance into the Bahá'í fold of Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, and the followers of other ancient faiths, as well as of agnostics and even atheists, is the wholehearted and unqualified acceptance by them all of the divine origin of both Islám and Christianity, of the Prophetic functions of both Muhammad and Jesus Christ, of the legitimacy of the institution of the Imamate, and of the primacy of St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles. Such are the central, the solid, the incontrovertible principles that constitute the bedrock of Bahá'í belief, which the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh is proud to acknowledge, which its teachers proclaim, which its apologists defend, which its literature disseminates, which its summer schools expound, and which the rank and file of its followers attest by both word and deed.


Ahsan, did you see the quote I referred to earlier in the thread? I'm not clear on whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself referred to such a tradition here or whether he is citing another author (looking at it again now, it seems maybe it was another author).

Baha'u'llah cites the tradition (whether it was this one or not) in paragraph 20 of the Kitab-i-Iqan.

best wishes,
Brett

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Re: "I am Jesus"

Postby brettz9 » Sat May 24, 2008 10:27 pm

To add to my last post just now, the text of the Kitab-i-Iqan does not claim the quote came from a tradition. Obviously a Manifestation of God would have insight into what had been said without reference to a tradition (propagated by human beings no less). Yet, this is not to say that such a tradition does not exist (or that Baha'u'llah was paraphrasing a tradition). If the Imam Mahdi was to say that, then with the essential oneness of the Prophets, it would have applied to Muhammad as well.

Brett

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Re: "I am Jesus"

Postby Ahsan_al_Hadees » Sun May 25, 2008 4:13 am

Dear Brett,

You wrote:

Baha'is uphold the Divinity of the Imamate, even if it was unfortunately obscured by the usurpation of Umar:


We, the Ahmadi Muslims, do not believe in the shia concept of Imamate and any right of Hadhrat Ali ( AS ) to be the first caliph. We believe that he is one of rightly guided caliphs and the fourth caliph of Islam. For us the greatest Anti Shia is Hadhrat Ali ( AS ) himself.

You wrote:

Ahsan, did you see the quote I referred to earlier in the thread? I'm not clear on whether Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself referred to such a tradition here or whether he is citing another author (looking at it again now, it seems maybe it was another author).


You are right. He ( PBUH ) is citing another author. I will check the reference again.

Regards,
Ahsan


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