I need the source for a tradition Baha'u'llah quotes..

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Allah Is The Truth
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I need the source for a tradition Baha'u'llah quotes..

Postby Allah Is The Truth » Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:14 pm

Salaam Alaikum (Peace Be Unto You)

"A Youth from Bani-Hashim shall be made manifest, Who will reveal a new Book and promulgate a new law;"

thank you so much.

Sincerely,

Muhammad Noor Islam
Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the ternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten.
And there is none comparable unto him.

Sura 112 (al-ikhlas) of the Noble Qur'an.

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:44 am

Dear Muhammad Noor Islam,

From a Google search, "Youth from Bani-Hashim" turned up the following details:

It is apparently in the ""Avalim," an authoritative and well-known book", apparently from the Holy Imám Sádiq.

A similar quote, apparently in the "Arba'in", a "compilation of Shi'ah Tradition".

best wishes,
Brett

Allah Is The Truth
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Postby Allah Is The Truth » Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:07 am

Thank you. Now, if I could only find those sources. It amazes me. The internet is so huge, but the only sources I can find when the Baha'i Scriptures quote something from Islamic Scriptures, are Baha'i Scriptures themselves on the internet.

Oh well. There's nothing wrong with digging through books.

~ Muhammad Noor Islam
Say: He is Allah, the One!

Allah, the ternally Besought of all!

He begetteth not nor was begotten.

And there is none comparable unto him.



Sura 112 (al-ikhlas) of the Noble Qur'an.

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:05 pm

Dear Muhammad Noor Islam,

Are you looking for the items in English? I don't think there are an enormous number of English-translation Hadith collections (particularly Shí'ih) on the internet (unfortunately). If they exist in print format, then maybe Google's effort to digitize several important libraries will make them available!

If you are interested, one of the articles that turned up in the Google search for including the tradition might be of interest to you in that it deals with the subject you are perhaps concerned about: http://bahai-library.com/?file=hakim_seal_prophets.html

best wishes,
Brett

Guest

Postby Guest » Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:35 pm

brettz9 wrote:Dear Muhammad Noor Islam,

Are you looking for the items in English? I don't think there are an enormous number of English-translation Hadith collections (particularly Shí'ih) on the internet (unfortunately). If they exist in print format, then maybe Google's effort to digitize several important libraries will make them available!

If you are interested, one of the articles that turned up in the Google search for including the tradition might be of interest to you in that it deals with the subject you are perhaps concerned about: http://bahai-library.com/?file=hakim_seal_prophets.html

best wishes,
Brett


Yes, I am looking for the traditions in English. I am not a native reader in Arabic and I can only read a few paragraphs and understand it.

Thank you for the link: That is not the subject I am particularly concerned about, but I will read it anyways. Thank you.

The theology of finanlity based around the "Seal of the Prophets" is just as convincing to me as the Christian Theology of finality of "No one comes to the Father but through Me". Basically, I am saying that it does not convince me.

The context surrounding that verse has nothing to do with finality of Prophethood at all.

I am not concerned with new laws or new teachers or anything. Islam has been a religion of renewal since Allah/God presented it to mankind. I was taught by my Muslim teachers that Allah/God changes laws and rituals for each of his revelations to distinguish from the other revelations. That is why Jews and Muslims have similar styles of prayer, but not exact. And why Christians have a certain style that is different from Jews and Muslims.

This is not an issue according to the teachings of Islam.

I am looking at Baha'i because I believe (perhaps arrogantly) that I understand some of the teachings of Islam, and one of those teachings is progressive revelation. I don't believe that Revelation just ends one day just because the scripture was "uncorrupt" unlike the previous ones (I'm skeptical of Muslim theology on that issue as well).

If I become a Baha'i, I don't think I will consider it leaving Islam or denouncing its teachings. But rather a fulfillment of its prophecy and its promise that God sends Messengers to every nation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That being said, my real concern is the concept of the Mahdi/Qaim. My teachers were Sunni so my beliefs are Sunni in most aspects. I don't say I am a Sunni but most of my beliefs evolved from those doctrines. I know who the Mahdi is supposed to be in Sunni Islam, but I don't know much about Shiite Islam. In Sunni Islam, the Mahdi is supposed to have the same name of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) and he is supposed to be born in Medina, Arabia. He is supposed to rally the Muslims from all around the world to fight a common enemy with another nation. The common enemy is supposed to be defeated, but those Muslims who ran away from the Battlefield, Allah/God would never forgive them. 1/3 of the Muslims would flee the battle. 1/3 would die in the Battle. And 1/3 would still be living after fighting. This ally against the common enemy is Rome. After the common enemy is defeated, Rome will betray the Mahdi and try to fight him and his people. They would fight and defeat Rome and turn it into an Islamic State there. I forgot when, but Jesus (Pbuh) is supposed to come in somewhere around this time and break the cross and rule with the law of the Qur'an, not of the Gospel.

This is what I heard in a sermon once. I don't know how valid it is. Given that, I understand that Al-Bab's followers didn't think of him in that way but saw him in a much different light. I know a little bit of the history, but not much. I know that Al-Bab' means "The Gate" and he said that he was the gate to the hidden Imam Mahdi (who was in occulation for 1000 years). Or he said he was "The Gate" to someone to come after him. Or did he say both? I don't know much about his book, Al-Bayan.

Sincerely,
Muhammad Noor Islam

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Postby majnun » Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:35 am

Akeykom salam Muhammad Noor Islam

The Mahdi is announced with an astonishing precision
in the noble Qur’an, as he is in the Bible.

It on chapter 13
The Initials ALMR means al-mahdi will rise (his mission is over)
If you add the abjad values up to chapter 13, you get the year his
mission was completed.
The abjad total is 1267 hijri. The year 260 hijri should be mentioned also.
As for the Book al bayan, hard to find in english or french, but
in farsi, not difficult. it is on the net actually. Do not forget that
chapter 13 closes on verse number 1748. This being 19 x 92, it may
possibly indicate that what is in chapter 13 will terminate the Muhammadian cycle, since prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) abjad value is 92.
But this is just a supposition from me, I have no certainty about this argument. The 1267 date however, is confirmed in the writings of
Baha'ullah, and also (i think) in writings by Imam Baqir (the fifth Imam).

May peace accompany your person on the Straight Path
.

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:05 am

Peace Be Unto You.

Thank you for your comments. These obscure number prophecies confuse me, but I accept them.

I decided to declare as a Baha'i a week ago, so praise be to God. You have a new brother in the faith.

brettz9
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Postby brettz9 » Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:05 pm

Wonderful! Welcome...

best wishes,
Brett

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Postby brettz9 » Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:05 am

I wanted to dig up this old thread because of recent postings questioning the source of traditions and because I have come across a book ("A Companion to the Study of the Kitáb-i-Íqán") which offers some specific sources for some of the traditions cited in at least this work. The author credits "Ishráq Khávarí's four-volume encyclopedic Persian study, the Qámús-i-Íqán" for identifying most of the quotes, and might be a helpful additional reference.

As far as the tradition mentioned at the start of this thread on the Youth of Baní-Háshim, the 'Aválim is described in the Íqán "Companion" mentioned above as being short for 'Aválim-ul-Ulúm va'l-Ma'árif, a "compilation of Shí'í traditions, consisting of 100 volumes, collected by Shaykh 'Abdu'lláh Ibn Núru'lláh Bahrayní, one of the distinguished students of Majlisí" and "also known as Jám'í al-Ulúm va'l-Ma'árif." Also referenced in par. 272.

A reference to the Biháru'l-Anvár, a few paragraphs later, is described as being a 14 volume collection of Shí'í traditions by Muhammad Báqiru'l-Majlisí at the close of the 16th century. Mentioned in par. 282 as simply "Bihár".

Yanbú' is described as being a collection of traditions of the Imáms, compiled by Muhammad bin Ahmad bin Junayd Abú-'Alí al-Khátib (also known as Iskáfí (Iskáf having been a village in Mesopotamia) died 381 AH/991 A.D. and buried in Rayy).

Káfí (short for Usul al-Káfí is described as the "most celebrated and reliable" collection for Shí'í Hadíth (compiled by Muhammad Ibn Ya'qúb Kulayní (died 328 AH/939 A.D.)) and as having 3 parts with 16,199 traditions ascribed to the Imáms. The reference in par. 274 to Rawdiy-i-Káfí refers to the 3rd part of this work.

Jábir is listed as Jábir Ibn-i-Hayyán, a student of Imám Sádiq who compiled the Imám's sayings. (GPB 80 also makes mention of the tradition).

Let me know if anyone wants a source for any other tradition in this book, and I may be able to reference it from the above-mentioned book.

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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:24 pm

brettz9 wrote:Dear Muhammad Noor Islam,

From a Google search, "Youth from Bani-Hashim" turned up the following details:

It is apparently in the ""Avalim," an authoritative and well-known book", apparently from the Holy Imám Sádiq.

A similar quote, apparently in the "Arba'in", a "compilation of Shi'ah Tradition".

best wishes,
Brett


If these books are so famous, then how come no Shiahs have heard about them. Also, who are the authors of the books - at least let us know that. Incidentally, this seems to be the only tradition that the Bahai accept - very convenient. Why are the 1000's of other traditions about the Mahdi ignored?

Read this web site: It carries a good section on the Bab v/s Mahdi of Islam. http://www.bahaiawareness.com

Regards
Ayaz

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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:27 pm

Abjad is a man made concept and has no relation in islam. We never found the Holy Prophet (pbuh) referring to Abjad in his traditions. Also if these were such a proof for the Bab, why did he not mention it. Why are the Bahais investing it now? Even Bahaullah did not refer to these as a proof for the bab.

Regards,

Irish
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Postby Irish » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:02 pm

It is quite difficult to locate short quotations in the books Shi'ih traditions. However, if you think that no Shi'ihs have heard of Avalim, Yanbu', Biharu'l-Anvar, Arba'in etc, then I think you have not searched correctly.

Firstly, these books are all in Arabic, so you need to search for Awalim, not Avalim, Biharu'l-Anwar not Biharu'l-Anvar etc.

Note also that many, many books of traditions bare the words Awalim, Yanbu and Arba'in. These words are usually only a part of the title. The full titles are often quite long. Therefore, it is difficult to know to which books Baha'u'llah was referring.

Also, note that some collections of hadith are enormous, and very difficult to use, such as Biharu'l-Anwar which has more than 100 volumes.

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Postby Dorumerosaer » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:10 am

I'm not sure that the Arabic font will come through, but here goes.

This hadith is on Shiah websites on the Internet, in Arabic. The Arabic says that the Promised Qa’im will rise to promulgate a Kitaabin jadeed (new Book) and an Amr Jadeed (a New Law or a New Cause).

For example Bih.aar ul Anwaar Volume 52 page 354

http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... 2/a36.html

عن أبي بصير قال : قال أبوجعفر عليه السلام : يقوم القائم بأمر جديد ، وكتاب جديد


The Fifth Imam, Abu Ja’far the Father of the Imam Saadiq said:
"The Promised Qa’im will arise to Promulgate an Amrin Jadeed (a New Amr, a New Cause) and a New Kitaab (a New Book).

And again here
http://www.aqaed.com/ahlulbait/books/behar52/a30.html

يعني الباقر عليه السلام لابد لنا من آذربيجان لا يقوم لها شئ فاذا كان ذلك فكونوا أجلاس بيوتكم ( وألبدوا ما ألبدنا ) ( 1 ) والنداء ( وخسف ) بالبيداء فاذا تحرك متحرك فاسعوا إليه ، ولوحبوا ، والله لكأني أنظر إليه بين الركن والمقام يبايع الناس على كتاب جديد

Brent

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Re: I need the source for a tradition Baha'u'llah quotes..

Postby iranpour » Tue May 14, 2013 4:07 am

Our Muslim friend , Muhammad Noor Islam wrote:

In Sunni Islam, the Mahdi is supposed to have the same name of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him)

Dear Muhammad, there are a lot of Traditions regarding the name of Mahdi and I quote some of them as follows:

Amiru’l-Mu’minin (‘Ali) related from the Prophet who said, The last one’s name is His name ‘ALI before My name MUHAMMAD (Peace Be Upon Him).
The combination of the two names makes “’ALI-MUHAMMAD”, the given name of the Bab. (Kitab-i-ghaybat-i-Na’mani and Arabic Biharu’l-Anwar, vol. 13, p. 200, line 27).

His holiness ‘Ali answering someone who asked the name of Mahdi says: “I am before the (name) of Muhammad” (Makes ‘Ali-Muhammad, the given name of the Bab). Kitab-i-Mashariqu’l-Anwaru’l-Yaqin, P. 198).

In Arabic Biharu’l-Anwar, P. 223, line 13 and in Persian Biharu’l-Anvar, P. 720, His holiness ‘Ali referring to the name of Qaim (Mahdi), He has mentions “THE SUM OF THE TWO EXALTED NAMES” and in the Kitab-i-Mashriqu’l-Anwaru’l-Yaqin, P. 44, describing the above books regarding the “THE TWO EXALTED NAMES”, He clarified these names “MUHAMMAD” and “’ALI”.
“By “THE TWO EXALTED NAMES” he meant MUHAMMAD and ‘ALI, the praise of God may be rested on Them”.

So His name would be the combination of the names of the Prophet (MUHAMMAD) and His son-in-law ‘ALI.

The given titles of Mahdi (THE BAB) and return of ‘Isa (the second return of Jesus Christ) are alluded in the twentieth Surih of the Qur’an namely Surih-i-Taha:

Ta Ha. Which is one of the Disconnected Letters of the Qur’an is composed of two Arabic letters which prophesies the names of the two Promised one of Islam namely Bahá'u'lláh and the Báb. The numerical values of (T) and (H), are 9 and 5 successively which are adjusted with the numerical values of BAHA and the BAB.

The title of Baha’u’llah alluded in the Qur’an:
While all the chapters (suvar) of the Qur’an begins with the name of God, Bismillah.. “In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful”, the NINTH Surah has not that name. There are a lot of explanation by the Muslims, but Baha’is believe that it is because the Abjad Number of the title of Baha’u’llah is equal to NINE: (B=2, H=5, A=1, HAMZIH=1, the sum of them is NINE).

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Re: I need the source for a tradition Baha'u'llah quotes..

Postby iranpour » Thu May 16, 2013 4:23 am

Our Muslim friend uwoHXaCnf wrote:
If these books are so famous, then how come no Shiahs have heard about them. Also, who are the authors of the books - at least let us know that. Incidentally, this seems to be the only tradition that the Bahai accept - very convenient. Why are the 1000's of other traditions about the Mahdi ignored?
Your question was answered by our friend, Irish completely but I want to add a comment and tell you that I am from Muslim background and as a Baha’i I believe in any Tradition whether related by Shiahs or Sunnis which when weighed by the Qur’an’s unerring Balance, being conformed to it. I found a lot of verses of the Holy Qur’an and Traditions which directly or indirectly indicate the Promised ones of Islam namely Mahdi and Isa which are conform with the Bab and Baha’u’llah successively.

Read this web site: It carries a good section on the Bab v/s Mahdi of Islam. http://www.bahaiawareness.com

I know well that the author of the above site is one of the avowed enemies of the Faith who attempts to distort the teachings, defame its accomplishments, vilify its Founders and shake its foundations, but as testified by the Qur’an the enemies can’t do any harm to the Faith:
“Fain would they PUT OUT THE LIGHT OF ALLAH WITH THEIR MOUTHS, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse”. (The Qur'an, 9:33).

And Baha’u’llah asserts on the subject too:

“The oppositions made by Pharaoh and his people exerted themselves to extinguish that fire of the divine tree with the water of denial and opposition; heedless that THE FIRE OF THE DIVINE WISDOM IS NEVER QUENCHED BY MATERIAL WATER not the lamp of supreme power extinguished by contrary winds. Nay rather, in such a case WATER PRODUCES CONFLAGRATION AND THE WIND INSURES PRESERVATION, were ye to perceive with discerning sight and walk in the good pleasure of God”. (Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 5).

“The hosts of earth and heaven are powerless to resist His Cause, nor can all the kings and rulers of the world ever frustrate His purpose. Say: ADVERSITY IS THE OIL WHICH FEEDETH THE FLAME OF THIS LAMP AND BY WHICH ITS LIGHT IS INCREASED, did ye but know. INDEED, THE REPUDIATION OF THE FROWARD SERVETH BUT TO PROCLAIM THIS FAITH AND TO SPREAD THE CAUSE OF GOD AND HIS REVELATION THROUGHOUT THE WORLD”. (Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 147

In this connection I have a question from you, would you answer my question equitably?
When a seeker wants to search the truth of Islam, has he to read any of the numerous refutative books which are written against Islam? If so, why do you suggest those who want to search for the truth of the Baha’i Faith, to read books like the above one?

Abjad is a man made concept and has NO RELATION IN ISLAM. We never found the Holy Prophet (pbuh) referring to Abjad in his traditions. Also if these were such a proof for the Bab, why did he not mention it. Why are the Bahais investing it now? Even Bahaullah did not refer to these as a proof for the bab.

Our friend Irish has answered your question quite well.
I want to add that another subject that is good for you to study more is the Abjad Notation which is important in Judaism "GEMATRIA”, Christianity, Islam and the Baha’i Faith.. In Islam not only Muslims used it but there are Traditions from Muhammad the Prophet Who has used Abjad Notation. For more information please refer to the Internet just write, “abjad notation” or “islam and abjad notation”.

By induction we can prove that the Qur’an has kept some secrets in certain words and clauses and therefore, we assume that the Qur’an has used this linguistic convention of the Semitic languages.

As I mentioned in my previous post, in Surih “Ta-Ha” Ta (with numerical value of 5) and Ha (with the numerical value of 9) refer to the Bab (with numerical value of 5) and Baha (with the numerical value of 9) successively and in the Ninth Surih of the Qur’an, “At-Taubah: Repentance” as “NINE” is the numerical value of Baha, the Bismilih is omitted. As it is with TaHa so it is with the other DISCONNECTED LETTERS of the Qur’an.

By the way I want to thank and praise your attitudes for your searching the Truth and by this you follow the prescription of the Holy Qur’an which says:

“AS FOR THOSE WHO STRIVE IN US, WE SURELY GUIDE THEM TO OUR PATHS, AND LO! ALLAH IS WITH THE GOOD”. (The Qur'an, 29:69). Peace


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