The Bab's claim to be Qa'im

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Baha'i Warrior
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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:37 pm

iamimranshaykh wrote:Wrong - In Islam - we are discussing the Shiite point of view here - everything is cut and dried. Our faith is not led by personal judgement or opinion - it is led by what the Prophet and the Imams told us. They told us and we obeyed.


But the Sunnis say your Shi'a hadith are false, fabricated, etc. (like Shi'as say about Sunni hadith), so 85% of Muslims have reason (whether good or bad) to disbelieve in the Imams.

In that same spirit of denial, had the Bab told Joe or Mike that Baha'u'llah would be the Promised One, and had it been written down, then many people would have said "Lies! This is fabricated!" As an expression in Persian goes, the wall of denial is high!

Therefore, humans are good at denying, and justifying their positions, and getting others to believe them sometimes. Religion has always been like this: there is a lot of opposition to the Truth, and there are a lot of reasons to oppose. So: Q: Why does God not make His ways "clear" (in a layman's understanding of the term) to mankind? A: Because life is a test, to weed out the spiritually weak, if you will. Spiritually speaking, to seperate the men from the boys. Like the holy Qur'an says, when we die the truth instantaneously becomes obvious to us; that is when it is too late for many, because in the presence of God no one can tell Him that He wasn't "clear." The Words of the Qur'an put it quite nicely: "Moreover, apostles before thee have been laughed to scorn: but that which they laughed to scorn encompassed the mockers among them!" And further, "They say, too, 'Unless an angel be sent down to him. . . .' But if we had sent down an angel, their judgment would have come on them at once, and they would have had no respite." Therefore, God does not make the Truth "obvious" because He is testing our spiritual purity. If humans did not have this great capacity to deny, the all the Muslims would have instantly become utter devotees to the Imams. But even within Shi'a Islam you also have people who only believe in a certain number of the Imams. Disunity and waywardness and blindness are abundant everywhere (indeed, it is in no short supply), even among the Commander of the Faithful's adherents themselves concerning the Imams, among the many other sources of disagreement.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Coming back to the question - did the Bab make a formal announcement using the name of Bahaullah and / or Mirza Hussayn Ali Noori as the One Whom God will Manifest? Or is it something that "you believe" as such.


The Bab didn't formally announce Baha'u'llah, or anyone else. Baha'u'llah's station is so high that He does not need others to prophesy Him using His blessed Name, and (for me) when I read Baha'u'llah's Writings, they are the Words of God. It is for each to judge for himself, between him and his Maker. Indeed, this is the only way one can figure out who the Bab meant. Of course, many people look at Baha'u'llah's holy Words and pass the judgement that they are not of God—and God forbid, the Words of an "infidel." That is fine, as we all are given free will. God the fair King does not force anyone to do anything in this life. But hey, we could be wrong—anyone can be wrong technically.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Bahaullah making a claim as such does not really count. There were many people who made the claim of One Whom Allah will Manifest - its just that Bahaullah became more popular than the others.


God can do whatever He so chooses is my conviction. "BLESSED be He is whose hand is the KINGDOM! and over all things is He potent."

iamimranshaykh wrote:So who will be the one who will judge who is the One Whom Allah will Manifest. Not you. Not me. Not Bahaullah. It will have to be the Bab. So lets hear it from him.


God is King over all created things, and He does whatever He pleases, without the permission of or dealings with mortal men, and in total disregard of any of their objections. Baha'u'llah has said He is the Manifestation of God; His Words, indeed, attest to this fact, in my humble opinion. Free will: that is all humans need; that is all humans are given.

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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:27 am

Baha'i Warrior wrote:But the Sunnis say your Shi'a hadith are false, fabricated, etc. (like Shi'as say about Sunni hadith), so 85% of Muslims have reason (whether good or bad) to disbelieve in the Imams.

In that same spirit of denial, had the Bab told Joe or Mike that Baha'u'llah would be the Promised One, and had it been written down, then many people would have said "Lies! This is fabricated!" As an expression in Persian goes, the wall of denial is high!

Therefore, humans are good at denying, and justifying their positions, and getting others to believe them sometimes. Religion has always been like this: there is a lot of opposition to the Truth, and there are a lot of reasons to oppose. So: Q: Why does God not make His ways "clear" (in a layman's understanding of the term) to mankind? A: Because life is a test, to weed out the spiritually weak, if you will. Spiritually speaking, to seperate the men from the boys. Like the holy Qur'an says, when we die the truth instantaneously becomes obvious to us; that is when it is too late for many, because in the presence of God no one can tell Him that He wasn't "clear." The Words of the Qur'an put it quite nicely: "Moreover, apostles before thee have been laughed to scorn: but that which they laughed to scorn encompassed the mockers among them!" And further, "They say, too, 'Unless an angel be sent down to him. . . .' But if we had sent down an angel, their judgment would have come on them at once, and they would have had no respite." Therefore, God does not make the Truth "obvious" because He is testing our spiritual purity. If humans did not have this great capacity to deny, the all the Muslims would have instantly become utter devotees to the Imams. But even within Shi'a Islam you also have people who only believe in a certain number of the Imams. Disunity and waywardness and blindness are abundant everywhere (indeed, it is in no short supply), even among the Commander of the Faithful's adherents themselves concerning the Imams, among the many other sources of disagreement.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Coming back to the question - did the Bab make a formal announcement using the name of Bahaullah and / or Mirza Hussayn Ali Noori as the One Whom God will Manifest? Or is it something that "you believe" as such.


The Bab didn't formally announce Baha'u'llah, or anyone else. Baha'u'llah's station is so high that He does not need others to prophesy Him using His blessed Name, and (for me) when I read Baha'u'llah's Writings, they are the Words of God. It is for each to judge for himself, between him and his Maker. Indeed, this is the only way one can figure out who the Bab meant. Of course, many people look at Baha'u'llah's holy Words and pass the judgement that they are not of God—and God forbid, the Words of an "infidel." That is fine, as we all are given free will. God the fair King does not force anyone to do anything in this life. But hey, we could be wrong—anyone can be wrong technically.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Bahaullah making a claim as such does not really count. There were many people who made the claim of One Whom Allah will Manifest - its just that Bahaullah became more popular than the others.


God can do whatever He so chooses is my conviction. "BLESSED be He is whose hand is the KINGDOM! and over all things is He potent."

iamimranshaykh wrote:So who will be the one who will judge who is the One Whom Allah will Manifest. Not you. Not me. Not Bahaullah. It will have to be the Bab. So lets hear it from him.


God is King over all created things, and He does whatever He pleases, without the permission of or dealings with mortal men, and in total disregard of any of their objections. Baha'u'llah has said He is the Manifestation of God; His Words, indeed, attest to this fact, in my humble opinion. Free will: that is all humans need; that is all humans are given.


Thank you for your response. I am extremely satisfied with it.

You have through your response made it clear for me that:

1. There was no formal announcement from the Bab about Bahaullah. Bahaullah made a claim for the position.

2. Bab intended Mohammed Ibnil Hasan as "One Whom Allah will Manifest" In atleast 4 books, he has clearly mentioned the name of the 12th Imam as Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, along with his names, titles and agnomen. In the book of Tafseere' Surah Kausar, the Bab acknowledges the long life of the Mahdi along with his 2 occultations et all. We do not claim that the books of the Bab are forgeries. The Bahais do for obvious reasons.

3. Forget about what the Sunnis say. We are not addressing the Sunnis. We are at a Bahai forum and speaking to Bahais.

4. Apart from your own personal judgement about accepting Bahaullah, there is no other proof for Bahaullah to be One Whom Allah will Manifest.

Regards,

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Postby FruccalFrilia » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:14 am

4. Apart from your own personal judgement about accepting Bahaullah, there is no other proof for Bahaullah to be One Whom Allah will Manifest.


"WHEN the Day-Star of Bahá will shine resplendent above the horizon of eternity it is incumbent upon you to present yourselves before His Throne. Beware lest ye be seated in His presence or ask questions without His leave. Fear ye God, O concourse of the Mirrors. "
-The Bab (SWB 217)

And the Earth will shine with the Glory of its Lord: the Record (of Deeds) will be placed (open); the prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward and a just decision pronounced between them; and they will not be wronged (in the least).
Quran 39:69
(Yusuf Ali)

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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:18 pm

Argos wrote:
Quote:
4. Apart from your own personal judgement about accepting Bahaullah, there is no other proof for Bahaullah to be One Whom Allah will Manifest.


"WHEN the Day-Star of Bahá will shine resplendent above the horizon of eternity it is incumbent upon you to present yourselves before His Throne. Beware lest ye be seated in His presence or ask questions without His leave. Fear ye God, O concourse of the Mirrors. "
-The Bab (SWB 217)

And the Earth will shine with the Glory of its Lord: the Record (of Deeds) will be placed (open); the prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward and a just decision pronounced between them; and they will not be wronged (in the least).
Quran 39:69
(Yusuf Ali)


Again, you have indulged in a favourite Bahai pass time of interpreting the Quran as you feel fit. The verse you have quoted is about the Day of Judgement when every persons record will be opened, witnesses will be brought forth for the action which men have done and justice will be done. No person will be wronged.

I dont say this - the prophet and the Holy Imams say so.

If I have to look at the verse differently, I would say that under no circumstances does the verse fit Bahaullah -

1. No person's scroll of deeds, least of all mine and yours has been opened. Not as yet atleast. And none that I am aware of in the past 140 years since the arrival of Bahaullah.

2. The verse says that "they" will not be wronged. Since the start of the Babi and the Bahai Faith - I have not seen any era when the Babis and the Bahais have not claimed to be persecuted. Even today after 150 years of Bahaullah, Bahais claim to be wronged.

3. Who pronounced the just decision - you, me or Bahaullah? Or the Bab?

Stop fooling around with the verses of Quran. You forget that the Quran was revealed in Arabic. Forget about reading the Quran - just pick up an Arabic lexicon and see the depth of the language. You want to tell me that you understood the entire verse and it deep meaning with one ordinary translation?

Secondly, can you tell me the reference from which writing of the Bab was the quotation taken. Please let me know the name of the original book, the place when the verse was revealed and in which language - Arabic or Persian. Please let me know what the Bab was doing and under what circumstances the verse was revealed.

Dont be surprised about the above questions of the Bab. I can tell you all the above for each and every verse of the Quran.

Regards,

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:58 pm

iamimranshaykh
wrote:
1. No person's scroll of deeds, least of all mine and yours has been opened. Not as yet atleast.


Aren't the deeds of those who oppose Baha'u'llah clearely manifest to us all? In this life, we are judged, and in the next life, we will be Judged—

Baha'u'llah:

"O YE PEOPLES OF THE WORLD! Know verily that an unforeseen calamity is following you and that grievous retribution awaiteth you. Think not the deeds ye have committed have been blotted from My sight. By My beauty! All your doings hath My pen graven with open characters upon tablets of chrysolite."

"O HEEDLESS ONES! Think not the secrets of hearts are hidden, nay, know ye of a certainty that in clear characters they are engraved and openly manifest in the holy Presence."

"O FRIENDS! Verily I say, whatsoever ye have concealed within your hearts is to Us open and manifest as the day; but that it is hidden is of Our grace and favour, and not of your deserving."

iamimranshaykh
wrote:
Stop fooling around with the verses of Quran. You forget that the Quran was revealed in Arabic. Forget about reading the Quran - just pick up an Arabic lexicon and see the depth of the language. You want to tell me that you understood the entire verse and it deep meaning with one ordinary translation?


There are people on this forum who know Arabic, and I personally know people who are very fluent in it. If you have any concerns about a specific verse, then tell us what your concern is specifically. Don't forget that the Baha'u'llah revealed Tablets in Arabic.

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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:50 am

Baha'i Warrior wrote:
iamimranshaykh
wrote:
1. No person's scroll of deeds, least of all mine and yours has been opened. Not as yet atleast.


Aren't the deeds of those who oppose Baha'u'llah clearely manifest to us all? In this life, we are judged, and in the next life, we will be Judged—


Not at all. I dont think so. Nobody's deeds are manifest.

Baha'u'llah:

"O YE PEOPLES OF THE WORLD! Know verily that an unforeseen calamity is following you and that grievous retribution awaiteth you. Think not the deeds ye have committed have been blotted from My sight. By My beauty! All your doings hath My pen graven with open characters upon tablets of chrysolite."

"O HEEDLESS ONES! Think not the secrets of hearts are hidden, nay, know ye of a certainty that in clear characters they are engraved and openly manifest in the holy Presence."

"O FRIENDS! Verily I say, whatsoever ye have concealed within your hearts is to Us open and manifest as the day; but that it is hidden is of Our grace and favour, and not of your deserving."

iamimranshaykh
wrote:
Stop fooling around with the verses of Quran. You forget that the Quran was revealed in Arabic. Forget about reading the Quran - just pick up an Arabic lexicon and see the depth of the language. You want to tell me that you understood the entire verse and it deep meaning with one ordinary translation?


There are people on this forum who know Arabic, and I personally know people who are very fluent in it. If you have any concerns about a specific verse, then tell us what your concern is specifically. Don't forget that the Baha'u'llah revealed Tablets in Arabic.


Good then read the traditions of the prophet about every verse and also tell us what the prophet said about it. That will lend credence to your claim that bahaullah succeeded the Prophet Mohammed. If you or your firends can read Arabic, it should become clear to you that the verse which you have quoted is about the day of judgement.

Secondly, you did not respond to all my points. Especially about the one wherein no person will be misjudged or wronged. Bahais make bahaullah as a martyr - he apparently was wronged. So obviously even if I take your version of the interpretation of the verse, it does not fit Bahaullah.

Regards,

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:02 am

iamimranshaykh wrote:Secondly, you did not respond to all my points. Especially about the one wherein no person will be misjudged or wronged. Bahais make bahaullah as a martyr - he apparently was wronged. So obviously even if I take your version of the interpretation of the verse, it does not fit Bahaullah.


I suggest you read about His life. He was very much persecuted.

—BW

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Postby choogue » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:03 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:I suggest you read about His life. He was very much persecuted.


BW, i think the point that Imran is actually making is the fact the verse states they will not be wronged however Bahaullah and the Bahais were "wronged".

Here is Imran's post again:
iamimranshaykh wrote:The verse says that "they" will not be wronged. Since the start of the Babi and the Bahai Faith - I have not seen any era when the Babis and the Bahais have not claimed to be persecuted. Even today after 150 years of Bahaullah, Bahais claim to be wronged.


Correct me if im wrong.

Regards
Abbas

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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:21 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:
iamimranshaykh wrote:Secondly, you did not respond to all my points. Especially about the one wherein no person will be misjudged or wronged. Bahais make bahaullah as a martyr - he apparently was wronged. So obviously even if I take your version of the interpretation of the verse, it does not fit Bahaullah.


I suggest you read about His life. He was very much persecuted.

—BW


Sure, I have read his life and while I have my own views about it, I agree that the Bahais claim that he was persecuted. Nothing wrong with the claim except that it does not then fit the verse which you have quoted. You seem to be missing the point.

Regards,

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:37 pm

abbas wrote:
Baha'i Warrior wrote:I suggest you read about His life. He was very much persecuted.


BW, i think the point that Imran is actually making is the fact the verse states they will not be wronged however Bahaullah and the Bahais were "wronged".

Here is Imran's post again:
iamimranshaykh wrote:The verse says that "they" will not be wronged. Since the start of the Babi and the Bahai Faith - I have not seen any era when the Babis and the Bahais have not claimed to be persecuted. Even today after 150 years of Bahaullah, Bahais claim to be wronged.


Correct me if im wrong.

Regards
Abbas


I think he might be misunderstanding the verse. Humans are judged, not God's infallible Agents (Prophets, Messengers, etc.).

Here's a better translation:

Mohsin Khan translation (39:69): "And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord (Allah, when He will come to judge among men) and the Book will be placed (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged."

Why would Prophets be judged? That doesn't make sense to me. They are the ones Who judge, not Who are judged. Men are fallible and thus capable of doing evil, not Prophets.

Hope that clarifies things...

—BW

P.S.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Sure, I have read his life and while I have my own views about it, I agree that the Bahais claim that he was persecuted. Nothing wrong with the claim except that it does not then fit the verse which you have quoted. You seem to be missing the point.


Argos quoted it, not me.

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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:22 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:I think he might be misunderstanding the verse. Humans are judged, not God's infallible Agents (Prophets, Messengers, etc.).

Here's a better translation:

Mohsin Khan translation (39:69): "And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord (Allah, when He will come to judge among men) and the Book will be placed (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged."

Why would Prophets be judged? That doesn't make sense to me. They are the ones Who judge, not Who are judged. Men are fallible and thus capable of doing evil, not Prophets.

Hope that clarifies things...


You say that it is a "better" translation - on what grounds? You seem to be missing the point that we do not rely on our personal judgements on the Quran. We rely on the interpretation provided by the Prophet and the Imams to understand the Word of Allah.

Secondly, you seem to have been diverted from the original point of the Bab being the Mahdi. I too am guilty of the offence of allowing you to divert. please revert back to how the Bab was the promised Mahdi of Islam.

Regards,

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:19 am

iamimranshaykh wrote:You say that it is a "better" translation - on what grounds? You seem to be missing the point that we do not rely on our personal judgements on the Quran. We rely on the interpretation provided by the Prophet and the Imams to understand the Word of Allah.


Doesn't matter, when looking at either translation one will see that the Prophets are not the ones Who will be judged—that just doesn't make sense, to Muslims or to Baha'is. That is totally irrational to contend that God's chosen Messengers and Prophets will be "judged"—they are God's Vessels...will He judge His own Words? No, obviously not.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Secondly, you seem to have been diverted from the original point of the Bab being the Mahdi. I too am guilty of the offence of allowing you to divert. please revert back to how the Bab was the promised Mahdi of Islam.


There were no miraculous events—well, there was His martyrdom (and others), but our Faith does not attach importance to miracles. However, the true miracle was the Bab's own Words, as in Islam the true miracle was the words contained in the holy Qur'an—whose style none could match (except, that is, another Prophet of God). Indeed, without it, what proof did Muhammad have that He was a Prophet of God? It comes down to this, and it always has been this way, and always will be: does one hear the Voice of God in the Prophet's (e.g. the Bab's) Words? If yes, then one should believe He is the Promised One. If "no," then there are two possible explanations: (1) He was not sent by God, and is an infidel, or (2) the person reading the Bab's Words has closed his mind, his heart, and his soul to these divine words (or God has closed his mind, heart, and soul), and these holy Words have an effect on him as much as they do on a rock. "And, if we pleased, we would surely put out their eyes: yet even then would they speed on with rivalry in their path: but how should they see?" (Ya. Sin)

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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:39 am

Baha'i Warrior wrote:
iamimranshaykh wrote:You say that it is a "better" translation - on what grounds? You seem to be missing the point that we do not rely on our personal judgements on the Quran. We rely on the interpretation provided by the Prophet and the Imams to understand the Word of Allah.


Doesn't matter, when looking at either translation one will see that the Prophets are not the ones Who will be judged—that just doesn't make sense, to Muslims or to Baha'is. That is totally irrational to contend that God's chosen Messengers and Prophets will be "judged"—they are God's Vessels...will He judge His own Words? No, obviously not.

iamimranshaykh wrote:Secondly, you seem to have been diverted from the original point of the Bab being the Mahdi. I too am guilty of the offence of allowing you to divert. please revert back to how the Bab was the promised Mahdi of Islam.


There were no miraculous events—well, there was His martyrdom (and others), but our Faith does not attach importance to miracles. However, the true miracle was the Bab's own Words, as in Islam the true miracle was the words contained in the holy Qur'an—whose style none could match (except, that is, another Prophet of God). Indeed, without it, what proof did Muhammad have that He was a Prophet of God? It comes down to this, and it always has been this way, and always will be: does one hear the Voice of God in the Prophet's (e.g. the Bab's) Words? If yes, then one should believe He is the Promised One. If "no," then there are two possible explanations: (1) He was not sent by God, and is an infidel, or (2) the person reading the Bab's Words has closed his mind, his heart, and his soul to these divine words (or God has closed his mind, heart, and soul), and these holy Words have an effect on him as much as they do on a rock. "And, if we pleased, we would surely put out their eyes: yet even then would they speed on with rivalry in their path: but how should they see?" (Ya. Sin)


Dear BW:

You have missed the point again. We are not referring to translations. We are referring to the words of Allah in the light of the traditions of the prophet and the Imams who followed him. Check out the exegesis of the verse which you have quoted - rather any verse - from any aspect - we have exegesis from a literary point of view, from a hiistorical point of view, from a traditoinalist point of view. From no angle does this verse match what you are trying to say.

As regards the Bab, you have once again come to the Prophet - our topic is on establishing whether the Bab is the "promised" Mahdi and not whether the Prophet was the true prophet or not. The latter is beyond question. Muslims and Bahais alike accept the prophet (even though the Bahais do not accept him as the last prophet). If we want to discuss the prophethood and the sanctity of his prophethood vis a vis the Christians, we must talk to christians about that, and not to a Bahai.

The Mahdi was "promised" He just did not come just like that. So when we are evaluating the Bab, we have to see what Islam said about the Mahdi and see whether the Bab fits that or not. And then we also have to consider what to make of the multiple times that the Bab said that he was NOT the Mahdi. We are not even talking miracles here. We have not entered the realm of miracles here.

As regards the writings of the Bab, it is a tall claim from a Bahai that people should evaluate his writings as his miracle for the Bahais themselves claim that the writings of the Bab are lost. Funny that Allah chose to keep the miracle of the Prophet - The Quran alive and protected for 1,400 years and the Bab's miracle is lost in less than 100?

So lets talk about how the Bab was the Mahdi of Islam.

His writings are lost (as per the Bahais - in fact everybody seems to have access to his writings except for the Bahais themselves). If you say otherwise, please explian the words of the Bab in Sahifae Adaliyah, Qayyamul Asma, Tafseere Surah Kausar and Dalaelus Sabah when he clearly, unambigiously and unequivocally says that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was the Mahdi and not he.

Regards,

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Postby brettz9 » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:01 pm

Dear Iamimranshaykh,

I just wanted to apologize sincerely for not having responded to your earlier response to me. I have been busy and tied up recently, but God willing, I may be able to participate at a later date. I appreciate your patience and ask your forgiveness.

best wishes,
Brett

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:06 pm

Some of the Bab's Writings have been changed, but there is more than enough of His Writings that we know are authentic. Here it is: http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/index/albab.htm. If you can't read the language then I suggest learning Arabic (or Persian), until this stuff is translated. Again, our priority now is Baha'u'llah, who the Bab said was much more important than Himself.

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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:57 pm

Argos wrote:The Bab did refer himself as the Mahdi, maybe not countless times, but did Muhammad refer himself as the Seal of the Prophets countless times?


The discussion is about the Bab. Lets not digress please. We can take up the issue of the Holy Prophet in another thread.

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Postby BruceDLimber » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:09 pm

Brett, just a quick (and rather late) note!:

It's my understanding that Muhammad may have been illiterate.

So your challenge about whether or not He wrote the Qur'an really doesn't apply.

If I'm not mistaken, His statements were written by various third parties and compiled later after His death.

Regards,

Bruce

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Re: The Bab's claim to be Qa'im

Postby Chad » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:22 pm

Many Hadiths were readily available about the [[al-Qaim Ali Muhammad]], which include: In [[al-Kafi]], [[Abdullah ibn Abd al-Muttalib]] tells of the Qaim and the resurrection of the dead whose signs can be seen in the arising of the Babi community: "when our al-Qaim will rise, Allah will raise a people of our followers... a group of our followers who will be living will say, "So and so is raised from their graves and they are with al-Qaim." The news will reach our enemies who will say, "O the community of Shiah, what kind of liars you are! You speak lies. It is your government and you speak lies. No, by Allah they did not live and will not live until the Day of Judgment." Allah has quoted them saying, "...they swear in all earnestness that Allah will not raise again those who die. This is a true promise but most people do not know."" Also, [[Jafar al-Sadiq]] said that 'You will not see the one for whom you are waiting, until you become like al-Muwat (dead) goat who is not a matter of any kind of worry for the lion.... you will not have any high position to rise or supporter to seek support thereby.' This is exactly what the Babis had to do to believe in the Bab. They had to give up any position in society and become condemned by their countrymen. Moreover, [[Ali ibn al-Husayn]] said the Qaim would not appear unless 'his condition will be like that of a bird fying from the nest before its wings are able to lift it in the air. Therefore the children (predators) pick it up and play with it.' This was exactly what happened as more than 20,000 Babis were killed by the leaders and countrymen of Persia.

Chad
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Re: The Bab's claim to be Qa'im

Postby Chad » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:25 pm

In Hadith #14777 of Al-Kafi (Volume 8 ) it states: "When our Qaim will rise, Allah will extend the hearing and seeing (powers) of our Shiah, thus, they will not need a postal system." This could be seen in the telegraph message which occurred the same day that the Bab declared His mission to Mulla Husayn (May 23rd, 1844).


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