going to pubs/places where alcohol is consumed

All research or scholarship questions
Guest

going to pubs/places where alcohol is consumed

Postby Guest » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:47 pm

Hello,

I am a Baha'i who's wondering: Is it ok to go to a pub/bar with friends (say, on invitation), so long as one does not participate in the consumption of alcoholic drinks, or of other sometimes unchaste behaviour that goes on in such places (ex: indiscriminate kissing basically).

The people I went with this one time knew full well I don't drink, and needless to say, I didn't, though I did feel a bit "out of place" due to the nature of the pub itself (noisy, full of drunks, and unchaste people every now and then).

What do you think?

Guest

Postby Guest » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:58 pm

I never understood the point of going to bars or clubs, even before I was a Baha'i or drinking for the taste of it as some claim (Yeah right!). You have to yell to communicate, people are beyond propriety, and the prospect of violence is very high. How is that fun? As to your question though, I think it's a matter of choice who you hang out with and where. You just have to realize that certain people and environments are generally not worth investing in. We should love all people that doesn't mean we need to hang out with all people. I don't plan on chillin with the Klan or Hell's Angels anytime soon, not that I'm comparing them to your "friends". Anyhoo, I don't think being around alcohol is bad. Heck it's everywhere, except in Salt Lake City I think, but what's the point?

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:59 pm

no, you cant go to those places.

" ...In the teachings there is nothing against dancing, but the friends should remember that the standard of Bahá'u'lláh is modesty and chastity. The atmosphere of modern dance halls, where so much smoking and drinking and promiscuity goes on, is very bad, but decent dances are not harmful in themselves. There is certainly no harm in classical dancing or learning dancing in school. There is also no harm in taking part in dramas. Likewise in cinema acting. The harmful thing, nowadays, is not the art itself but the unfortunate corruption which often surrounds these arts. As Bahá'ís we need avoid none of the arts, but acts and the atmosphere that sometimes go with these professions we should avoid. "

(From a letter dated 30 June 1952 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to a National Spiritual Assembly of India, Pakistan and Burma)

it follows bars, night clubs, etc. are much worse so you cant go to those

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:01 pm

and if you argue against this, then you would be saying that going to a strip club isnt bad either. let's use the writings and our common sense. rock concerts, strip clubs, bars, these are some of the worst environments for a Baha'i to be in

Guest

Postby Guest » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:07 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:As Bahá'ís we need avoid none of the arts, but acts and the atmosphere that sometimes go with these professions we should avoid. "

Not that I'm arguing against it, but is this to protect ourselves from corruption, or to avoid the perception from other people that we are as Baha'is "half-assing" our beliefs?

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:17 pm

both.

Baha'u'llah tells us: "Let deeds, not words be your adorning."

So if someone knows we are Baha'is and they see us doing something bad, that is going to reflect bad on us. Ruhiyyih Khanum is a paper says that the world is tired of words and is looking for action, that is why people are looking at us more carefully because we say we are a Baha'i.

also we should not knowingly put ourselves in a situation where we know there will be a test. an example i have given before is that we shouldnt go to a whorehouse and try to be a good Baha'i by not fornicating with one of them. tests are good things , they are for spiritual progress but it is wrong to place yourself in an environment where you know promiscuity, etc. goes on

so its for our own protection and so that we do not hurt the image of our Faith. if we tell people we are Baha'i we'd better be careful because if not we will have to answer to Baha'u'llah in the next life



Anonymous wrote:
Baha'i Warrior wrote:As Bahá'ís we need avoid none of the arts, but acts and the atmosphere that sometimes go with these professions we should avoid. "

Not that I'm arguing against it, but is this to protect ourselves from corruption, or to avoid the perception from other people that we are as Baha'is "half-assing" our beliefs?

Guest

Postby Guest » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:47 pm

Two monks are walking through a forest. They come upon a maiden who wishes to cross a river but can not. One of the monks picks up the maiden, carries her to the other side and comes back to join his friend.

They resume their walk together. The monk who is dripping wet notices that his friend is very angry at him. He asks him why. His friend replies hotly, You know very well why! We have taken a vow of chastity, we can not so much as contemplate unchaste thoughts or speak to a maiden and you...you went and touched, no, you held a maiden and carried her body using yours...you have betrayed everything we stands for.

The wet monk continued to twist the ends of his robes to let the water drip out and said in reply, If you notice, I put her down on the other side of the river. You, it seems, are the one still carrying her.



What does this parable mean? What, if any, implications does it have for our discussion in this thread?

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:19 pm

parable = not from the Baha'i writings= not relevant

we only need the writings for these issues sorry

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Postby Hasan » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:39 pm

My fundamentalist warrior :) .... I go to Pubs and Discos also karaoke (once each two months) ... few years ago many bahá'í friends go two consecutive summers to dance. We bahá’í can divert and dance without alcohol or drugs, there are few places which the sell of alcohol is forbidden (if one exists), I would like it exists some kind of "bahá’í disco" so bahá'ís can dance in a healthy way, but it is not the reality. Of course, I would suggest that younger people ask their parents....

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:45 pm

i am going to ignore the word "fundamentalist"

hey, if i look up porn on the 'net, i'm gonna justify it, right? "the Baha'i Writings don't prohibit the viewing of pornography."

a lot of times i see these drunk guys on the streets on campus, sometimes the women walk around topless and i wouldnt be suprised if they all had drunken orgies

so Hasan, you can do this but please do not encourage other more vulnerable youth. Shoghi Effendi makes it very clear that we better not be in those places, however it is up to you and yes you arent breaking any laws



Hasan wrote:My fundamentalist warrior :) .... I go to Pubs and Discos also karaoke (once each two months) ... few years ago many bahá'í friends go two consecutive summers to dance. We bahá’í can divert and dance without alcohol or drugs, there are few places which the sell of alcohol is forbidden (if one exists), I would like it exists some kind of "bahá’í disco" so bahá'ís can dance in a healthy way, but it is not the reality. Of course, I would suggest that younger people ask their parents....

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Postby Hasan » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:57 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote: so Hasan, you can do this but please do not encourage other more vulnerable youth. Shoghi Effendi makes it very clear that we better not be in those places, however it is up to you and yes you arent breaking any laws


Uhm... I'm not encouraging anybody, just explaining.... I agree with you about adolescents and youths, I understand the danger, but we cannot say it is forbidden in our Faith (however parents can forbide their children go, as we obey our parents).

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:58 pm

Hasan, dont post if you want to accuse me of saying things i didnt say. show me where i said that it is forbidden?? i said the Guardian says that we shouldnt do it, but he doesnt say we are breaking a law if we go to them

Hasan wrote:
Baha'i Warrior wrote: so Hasan, you can do this but please do not encourage other more vulnerable youth. Shoghi Effendi makes it very clear that we better not be in those places, however it is up to you and yes you arent breaking any laws


Uhm... I'm not encouraging anybody, just explaining.... I agree with you about adolescents and youths, I understand the danger, but we cannot say it is forbidden in our Faith (however parents can say it to their children, as we obey our parents).

Guest

Postby Guest » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:52 pm

Just to clarify for myself (I am the OP): So there is nothing in the writings that says, in terms of a literal law, that we should avoid such places?

If so, and at the risk of veering slightly off topic here... what are the hard-set laws in the Baha'i faith in reference to anything? Is everything supposed to be taken as merely exhortation and as a "recommendation"? Extreme example: oops, I slept with the neighbour's wife. My bad. I'm still Baha'i though, because I admitted fault and sincerely begged for forgiveness.

You could also say "oops, I went to a pub and didn't drink or anything, but I still went to a pub with non-Baha'i friends". I mean, where does one find the authority and confidence to say adultery is worse than the other? Common sense probably dictates it is, but this is only because this is an extreme example, unlike many others I could have (but didn't) come up with.

Of course, if there ARE hard-set rules that I'm just not knowledgeable enough to know about, please, enlighten me. I never claimed to be a skilled scholar in this field.

</rant>

Guest

Postby Guest » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:06 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:parable = not from the Baha'i writings= not relevant

we only need the writings for these issues sorry


So anything that is not from the Baha'i writings is "irrelevant" ? Then why did Shoghi Effendi suggest that we read atleast as many non-Baha'i books as Baha'i books...and why are we exhorted to busy ourselves with the exigencies of the world and its needs? to mingle with the people in unity and engage them?

Sorry, but I disagree with your opinion. We are not Amish to cloister ourselves in our own communities and read Baha'i books, go to Baha'i meetings, etc. and hold all else in disdain. If you see no meaning in the parable and find no implication within it for our discussion, it is due to what you bring (or choose to not bring) to it. Others may very well learn from it.

Now, don't take this the wrong way, but I sort of agree with Hasan. In many of your remarks I see reflected a very close minded and literal (I guess what Hasan calls, 'fundamentalist') viewpoint. I don't mean this as an insult. Its just a sincere observation. If more than a one person tells you this, then you may wish to ask yourself whether it is not them seeing things which don't exist but rather begin to question why exactly you give off this impression. Can it be a wee-bit true?

Again, I stress that I don't mean this in any way as an insult or a slight to you. Unfortunately I'm not able to put it in more delicate or eloquent words so I apologize if you are hurt by these words. That is not my intention.

Guest

Postby Guest » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:53 pm

Guest:

For Baha'i laws check out the Kitab-i-Aqdas (Most Holy Book).

Of the more than one hundred volumes comprising the sacred Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas is of unique importance. "To build anew the whole world" is the claim and challenge of His Message, and the Kitáb-i-Aqdas is the Charter of the future world civilization that Bahá'u'lláh has come to raise up. Its provisions rest squarely on the foundation established by past religions, for, in the words of Bahá'u'lláh, "This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future." In this Revelation the concepts of the past are brought to a new level of understanding, and the social laws, changed to suit the age now dawning, are designed to carry humanity forward into a world civilization the splendours of which can as yet be scarcely imagined.

In its affirmation of the validity of the great religions of the past, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas reiterates those eternal truths enunciated by all the Divine Messengers: the unity of God, love of one's neighbour, and the moral purpose of earthly life. At the same time it removes those elements of past religious codes that now constitute obstacles to the emerging unification of the world and the reconstruction of human society.

The Law of God for this Dispensation addresses the needs of the entire human family. There are laws in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas which are directed primarily to the members of a specific section of humanity and can be immediately understood by them but which, at first reading, may be obscure to people of a different culture. Such, for example, is the law prohibiting the confession of sins to a fellow human being which, though understandable by those of Christian background, may puzzle others. Many laws relate to those of past Dispensations, especially the two most recent ones, those of Muhammad and the Báb embodied in the Qur'án and the Bayán. Nevertheless, although certain ordinances of the Aqdas have such a focused reference, they also have universal implications. Through His Law, Bahá'u'lláh gradually unveils the significance of the new levels of knowledge and behaviour to which the peoples of the world are being called. He embeds His precepts in a setting of spiritual commentary, keeping ever before the mind of the reader the principle that these laws, no matter the subject with which they deal, serve the manifold purposes of bringing tranquillity to human society, raising the standard of human behaviour, increasing the range of human understanding, and spiritualizing the life of each and all. Throughout, it is the relationship of the individual soul to God and the fulfilment of its spiritual destiny that is the ultimate aim of the laws of religion. "Think not", is Bahá'u'lláh's own assertion, "that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power." His Book of Laws is His "weightiest testimony unto all people, and the proof of the All-Merciful unto all who are in heaven and all who are on earth."
(http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/aqdas/introduction.html)


If you'd like to do a little further research you can find many of the Baha'i Writings - including the Kitab-i-Aqdas - on this website.

For a collection of Baha'i Sacred Writings:
http://bahai-library.com/?collection=Scripture)

For the full text of the Kitab-i-Aqdas:
http://bahai-library.com/?file=writings_bahaullah_aqdas

As far as I can tell, there does appear to what we may call "degrees". For example, as you quite sensibly point out, going to a pub/bar while, arguably, discouraged is not as serious a "bonking" your neighbours wife.

Further, while it is clearly stipulated that all sex outside marriage is not lawful it may be the case that adultery is worse than premarital or postmarital sex and, more controversially, that chastity is more important for women than it is for men.

Justice (here for "justice" read "reward and punishment") includes the administrative type which may mean having ones voting rights revoked, and the eternal spiritual sort which is basically heaven and hell - heaven being nearness/likeness to God and hell being distance from Him.

Just a few thoughts. We're all just learning about the Baha'i Faith so very interested to know what you think.

Best,
Mike

Mike

Ocean

Postby Mike » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:05 am

By the way, if you'd like to do a little further research, you could also download Ocean (20mb). It's a very nice resource developed a few years ago by a young Baha'i.

Best,
Mike

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Postby brettz9 » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:56 pm

As far as BW's argument about pornography not being prohibited, if so, I would think that it would only be because the question hasn't been asked (though nudity in art is not forbidden). The letter from the House says that 'Abdu'l-Bahá forbade mental fantasizing, and as they state, masturbation of course involves this. Sex sells because people are easily swayed by it. So, seeking out a situation which would unduly tempt oneself is not in line with the Faith, as we are to distinguish in ourselves those things which lead to loftiness or abasement. I do not think it is at all clear, however, that a visit to a bar, on the invitation of some acquaintance (such as to talk about something, and sip a coke or eat a sandwich while they drink a beer in a gesture which in the common society is intended as one toward friendship) is prohibited. (I say acquaintance, because a friend will likely know one's position, and be more inclined to respect this.) It may even be an opportunity to teach the Faith as one would, of necessity, uphold the law about not drinking alcohol, which of course would be likely to be noticed.

In a prayer (the end of the last one in Prayers and Meditations) Bahá'u'lláh states:

Lauded be Thy name, O Thou Who art the Goal of my desire! I swear by Thy glory! How great is my wish to attain unto a detachment so complete that were there to appear before me those countenances which are hid within the chambers of chastity, and the beauty of which Thou didst veil from the eyes of the entire creation, and whose faces Thou didst sanctify from the sight of all beings, and were they to unveil themselves in all the glory of the splendors of Thine incomparable beauty, I would refuse to look upon them, and would behold them solely for the purpose of discerning the mysteries of Thy handiwork, which have perplexed the minds of such as have drawn nigh unto Thee, and awed the souls of all them that have recognized Thee. I would, by Thy power and Thy might, soar to such heights that nothing whatsoever would have the power to keep me back from the manifold evidences of Thy transcendent dominion, nor would any earthly scheme shut me out from the manifestations of Thy Divine holiness.


Of course this is different than going out of one's way to tempt fate. But, visiting a bar, when one's intention is simply to meet with friends who have made the invitation, is quite different (unless you are an alcoholic--know yourself). The wider society recognizes the other locations you mentioned as seedy, whereas bars are not necessarily seen in this light.

So, as with seeing something with a genuinely detached mind (one which is not using it as an excuse to indulge in lustfulness), I would say there is nothing at all to say that going to a bar on an invitation is wrong. Of course, making it a regular practice (either) is clearly not a good idea.

Again, BW, please do not impose your views here. Though you did not state it was a law, you said, "it follows bars, night clubs, etc. are much worse so you cant go to those". If they sell beer in a restaurant, should we avoid going to restaurants too?

If we look at the original quotation (without a pre-interpretation imposed on us), I think it is evident that this is general guidance which offers a general suggestion--not a no-grey-area command.

To the original poster...I hope you may come to your own conclusion based on the authoritative Writings, your own conscience (which is not a guilt-trip by the way--a true conscience should also look for flexibility where it is permitted), and if ultimately necessary, correspondence with the institutions...We can consult with other Bahá'ís, but I'd suggest not looking for any kind of authoritative answer from us here unless we can provide a quotation which can confirm it to your satisfaction. We have no more authority than you do.

all the best,
Brett

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Postby brettz9 » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:13 pm

If so, and at the risk of veering slightly off topic here... what are the hard-set laws in the Baha'i faith in reference to anything? Is everything supposed to be taken as merely exhortation and as a "recommendation"? Extreme example: oops, I slept with the neighbour's wife. My bad. I'm still Baha'i though, because I admitted fault and sincerely begged for forgiveness.

You could also say "oops, I went to a pub and didn't drink or anything, but I still went to a pub with non-Baha'i friends". I mean, where does one find the authority and confidence to say adultery is worse than the other? Common sense probably dictates it is, but this is only because this is an extreme example, unlike many others I could have (but didn't) come up with.


I think Mike answered this quite well..I'll just add that the Writings (or administrative statements from the institutions) often make clear in context their severity by referring to punishments in this world or the next. For example, with adultery, there is (in the future, or at present according to the law in some countries) to be a punishment from the institutions in this world, and to be a humilitation in the next world as well. To take another example, As far as alcohol, according to the Bahá'í writings, flagrantly and publicly violating this law could lead to the loss of administrative rights (which is to only occur for serious matters). Many things are, however, left up to the dictates of one's consicence (if the Writings do not mention specifically what should be done or are stated in less exact terms--as I would say is the case with the quotation under discussion).

So, basically, I think it can be seen that the Writings do agree with your supposition that there are differences of degree, and they are in fact treated in our Faith in different manners (whether from a civil or spiritual point of view).

best wishes,
Brett

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Postby brettz9 » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Then why did Shoghi Effendi suggest that we read atleast as many non-Baha'i books as Baha'i books.


Although I would agree with your argument about the potential relevance (albeit non-authoritativeness) of drawing from other sources of wisdom ('Abdu'l-Bahá Himself often related stories to demonstrate a point), I have yet to see any official source in the Writings for this often-repeated statement you make here. There are certainly quotations on the need for acquiring sciences or arts (e.g., the quotations below), however, which do suggest that we acquire and share knowledge in other areas, but I'd be careful about repeating this statement as authoritative without an official source.

“On the shoulders of the youth today rests the future of the Faith. Therefore they should be well educated and trained not only in the Teachings of the Faith, but also in secular matters.”

(Shoghi Effendi, Youth, p. 438)


"Let the loved ones of God, whether young or old, whether male or female, each according to his capabilities, bestir themselves and spare no efforts to acquire the various current branches of knowledge, both spiritual and secular, and of the arts. Whensoever they gather in their meetings let their conversation be confined to learned subjects and to information on the knowledge of the day.

"If they do thus, they will flood the world with the Manifest Light, and change this dusty earth into gardens of the Realm of Glory." (`Abdu'l-Baha, Education, p. 253)


best wishes,
Brett

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:03 pm

Brett I'm not imposing my views. I will end with this quote again!

" ...In the teachings there is nothing against dancing, but the friends should remember that the standard of Bahá'u'lláh is modesty and chastity. The atmosphere of modern dance halls, where so much smoking and drinking and promiscuity goes on, is very bad, but decent dances are not harmful in themselves. There is certainly no harm in classical dancing or learning dancing in school. There is also no harm in taking part in dramas. Likewise in cinema acting. The harmful thing, nowadays, is not the art itself but the unfortunate corruption which often surrounds these arts. As Bahá'ís we need avoid none of the arts, but acts and the atmosphere that sometimes go with these professions we should avoid. "

(From a letter dated 30 June 1952 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to a National Spiritual Assembly of India, Pakistan and Burma)


Now you Baha'is read this and go to the bar if you want, or don't go to the bar but make sure you read it and meditate on it.


(By the way notice we are not forbidden to smoke but that is one reason we should not go to those places.)

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:09 pm

brettz9 wrote:Again, BW, please do not impose your views here. Though you did not state it was a law, you said, "it follows bars, night clubs, etc. are much worse so you cant go to those". If they sell beer in a restaurant, should we avoid going to restaurants too?



Again, the Guardian is very clear, read that quote. It is there for the taking, so it's up to you how much you want to progress spiritually or retard that progress.

I've also noticed drunk people always make a fool of themselves, so wouldn't it be kind of hard to have a serious talk with someone in that state? Do you go to your friends house and talk to him while he passes around a joint? Both are forbidden in the Writings. So perhaps we should also go to a whore's house when she is injecting heroine and have a nice chat with her too.

—Warrior

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Postby brettz9 » Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:25 am

In referring to things that should be avoided (which is all this quotation refers to), we should also avoid fellowship with the ungodly. Should I avoid going outside because ungodly people may be there?

You have your interpretation, and others are free to come to their own conclusion as to how this applies in a given situation. No one is disputing that the quotation suggests avoiding the negative atmosphere of such places in general.

CJ

Re: going to pubs/places where alcohol is consumed

Postby CJ » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:23 pm

Anonymous wrote:Hello,

I am a Baha'i who's wondering: Is it ok to go to a pub/bar with friends (say, on invitation), so long as one does not participate in the consumption of alcoholic drinks, or of other sometimes unchaste behaviour that goes on in such places (ex: indiscriminate kissing basically).

The people I went with this one time knew full well I don't drink, and needless to say, I didn't, though I did feel a bit "out of place" due to the nature of the pub itself (noisy, full of drunks, and unchaste people every now and then).

What do you think?



I suppose if you feel kind of uncomfortable, that says something right there. once in a while I will go to the pub, if a friend is having a birthday party or something of this nature. in most neighborhood pubs over here smoking is not allowed and unchaste behavior doesn't occur either. the only thing is the alcohol. but to refuse to go to a friend's party seems kind of rude and a bit against the spirit of unity. clubs seem a little different, however. maybe if you put more emphasis on hanging out with your Baha'i friends, you won't get invited to these places so much and won't be put in these types of situations. this is what I am finding as time goes by-I am drifting away from my friends who drink and party and am becoming closer to people who live a cleaner lifestyle. the Writings exhort us to do this anyway:

56. O MY SON!
The company of the ungodly increaseth sorrow, whilst fellowship with the righteous cleanseth the rust from off the heart. He that seeketh to commune with God, let him betake himself to the companionship of His loved ones; and he that desireth to hearken unto the word of God, let him give ear to the words of His chosen ones.

(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

CJ

Postby CJ » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:28 pm

Regarding the viewing or pornography;

Let your eye be chaste, your hand faithful, your tongue truthful and your heart enlightened.

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 138)

'Let your eye be chaste' -I would think that this means that we shouldn't view pornography

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:30 pm

CJ wrote:Regarding the viewing or pornography;

Let your eye be chaste, your hand faithful, your tongue truthful and your heart enlightened.

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 138)

'Let your eye be chaste' -I would think that this means that we shouldn't view pornography


yes. so just like you used a Baha'i principle there for pornography, we should use Baha'i principles for other aspects of our life also

CJ

Postby CJ » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:52 pm

Anonymous wrote:Guest:

Further, while it is clearly stipulated that all sex outside marriage is not lawful it may be the case that adultery is worse than premarital or postmarital sex and, more controversially, that chastity is more important for women than it is for men.


Best,
Mike


these things may be but since there is nothing in the writings to back them up, they remain just your opinion. going to a bar is discouraged, but not strictly forbbiden as is any kind of sex outside of marriage. in terms of sex outside of marriage, there are no degrees specified in The Most Holy Book and the chastity law is equally applied to both men and women.

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Postby collin » Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:18 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:Hasan, dont post if you want to accuse me of saying things i didnt say. show me where i said that it is forbidden?? i said the Guardian says that we shouldnt do it, but he doesnt say we are breaking a law if we go to them

Forgive me for being a newbie, but I haven't had a drink in over 15 years, and I am fascinated that your religious beliefs prohibit it. My question is about this Guardian you speak of. In one post was his name given as Shogi or something? Is he like the pope or something?

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:23 pm

After the prophet founder Baha'u'llah passed away, He appointed His Son to lead the Baha'i community, and then the great grandson of Baha'u'llah was appointed to lead the Baha'i community, as stipulated in the Will of 'Abdu'l-Baha. The great grandson of Baha'u'llah, or grandson of 'Abdu'l-Baha, was Shoghi Effendi, and since he was the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith we refer to him as "the Guardian" or "the beloved Guardian" sometimes.

For more info this should be useful:
http://bahai-library.com/biography/life.shoghi.effendi.html

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Postby Guest » Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:08 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:After the prophet founder Baha'u'llah passed away, He appointed His Son to lead the Baha'i community, and then the great grandson of Baha'u'llah was appointed to lead the Baha'i community, as stipulated in the Will of 'Abdu'l-Baha. The great grandson of Baha'u'llah, or grandson of 'Abdu'l-Baha, was Shoghi Effendi, and since he was the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith we refer to him as "the Guardian" or "the beloved Guardian" sometimes.

For more info this should be useful:
http://bahai-library.com/biography/life.shoghi.effendi.html


Thanks. I read the link about Shoghi. He was an amazing man. But he is no longer living. The article didn't say what happened after November 1957. Then I remember reading at Baha'u'llah.net about the royal family that Baha'u'llah was born into. Since Baha'u'llah traces his family back to King David, I did a searce on David and got this in Psalms 89:
89:34 I will not break my covenant or go back on what I promised.
89:35 Once and for all I have vowed by my own holiness, I will never deceive David.
89:36 His dynasty will last forever. His throne will endure before me, like the sun,
89:37 it will remain stable, like the moon his throne will endure like the skies.”
So, what happened in 1957? Who is the current guardian?
Collin

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Postby Hasan » Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:42 am

Anonymous wrote:So, what happened in 1957? Who is the current guardian?
Collin


To know the facts after 1957 you can take a look to Century of Light, VI and VII: http://www.bahai-library.com/published.uhj/century.light/century6.html

Since the death of Shoghi Effendi 4 november 1957, there is no Guardian because Shoghi Effendi didn't appointed one, and according to the Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Bahá the Guardian has to be a direct descendant (Aghsán) of Bahá'u'lláh, but all the alive aghsán had broke the covenant. Now, the Head of the Faith is the Universal House of Justice, as expected.

Chad
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Re: going to pubs/places where alcohol is consumed

Postby Chad » Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:24 am

I agree with Shoghi Effendi and the Hidden Words, but Baha'u'llah wrote "make your home in taverns, but tread not the path of a mischief-maker". I got clarification from the US National Secretariat that this doesn't mean a Bahai is allowed to drink there, although I've also been clarified by the Secretariat that it's okay for Bahais to drink non-alcoholic beer and wine and such drinks with very little alcohol (the Administration actually didn't want to stipulate an official level). However, I need to say that the reason I was going to the bars was sometimes because I was being tested to do wicked mischievous things, so Baha'u'llah gave the better of two situations by saying in essence "have some fun socially instead of tagging that building" for example. He said He revealed this to "breathe the Holy Spirit" into us.

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Re: going to pubs/places where alcohol is consumed

Postby Fadl » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:00 pm

Not all pubs are alike. Many of them are really just like restaurants, and like many (if not most) restaurants, alcoholic beverages are on offer. I have had many fine meals in some pubs in London and Vancouver and neither I nor anyone in my company, consumed any alcohol. Nevertheless, other kinds of pubs seem more like bars to me, being primarily drinking establishments. My personal action is not only to abstain from drinking but to not frequent places that are primarily drinking establishments or any sort of establishment that has a low or wicked character about it.

Cheers
"Thus doth the Nightingale utter His call unto you from this prison. He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord." - Baha'u'llah

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Re: going to pubs/places where alcohol is consumed

Postby scott20 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:38 am

Greetings,

I want to learn how strict are the Baha'i's about going to the places where the alcohol is served as someone who has not adopted Baha'i way of life yet but very interested in the school of thought. I don't mean especially pubs or bars but the restaurants as well. I used to live in Turkey and it was not a problem for me but since the time I bought a property in Lisbon and started to work here, I'm being invited to the restaurants where the alcohol is served for business meetings.

I want to get adapted to the culture here and adopt a decent way of life so I just want to know how strict are Baha'i's about it. Considering that it's something that I obliged to do as a part of my job I assume it's not a one-way ticket to hell, but if there is a strict law about my situation I'd like to know that.

Cheers

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Re: going to pubs/places where alcohol is consumed

Postby Jonah » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:35 am

I think it's safe to say that Baha'is are not as "strict" as, say, Muslims. While the prohibition on consuming alcohol is explicit, Baha'is also know they are living in a multicultural world where attitudes and behaviors sometimes change slowly, and patience and understanding are often considered more important than orthopraxy.

Personally, as someone who's at times been either in, on the margins of, or outside the Baha'i Faith, I have not always followed all the Baha'i "rules", and no one ever gave me trouble about anything I did. The most I'd ever get was a gentle reminder "are you familiar with our laws about X, Y or Z...?"

Chad
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Re: going to pubs/places where alcohol is consumed

Postby Chad » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:49 am

Muslims are not necessarily strict about alcohol either. A Muslim family I married into in Russia (divorced now) had a drinking party on New Year's Eve. Many Muslims in America and in Russia drink non-alcoholic beer as, I didn't know when I saw them but, it is also okay for Baha'is to drink. I actually work as a dishwasher at a restaurant that serves alcohol and non-alcoholic drinks, so sometimes after work my boss will let me drink a non-alcoholic beer while my co-workers finish off a beer or two. The Local Spiritual Assembly I currently serve on thought I was too strict in thinking that I should not drink non-alcoholic beer if an occasion arose in which it would be appropriate.


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