Posted by Morgan on April 25, 2101 at 17:17:43:
In Reply to: Re: Baha'u'llah can't be a prophet of God. posted by David on April 25, 2101 at 02:51:06:
It is 7:20 am in Australia and I suddenly got out of bed to see if you had written a reply :) I am enjoying our chat because you seem to be well versed in what you are saying and the issues you are raising are pertinent to all Baha'is who have, as you say, investigated independantly.
OK, concerning life on other planets. The intepretation which you have used here has never really occured to me until I read an article a Muslim wrote who took the same perspective as you have. The very first time I read it, and for about a year after that, the way I saw it was that this means there is a planet within every solar system which has its own creatres. This is what naturally came to me and I think this view is as plausible as your own. If I recall correctly gthe quote is
"EVERY fixed star..." so this is a collective reference to all solar systems to open the statement. It is not translated to "every one of those plantes" has creatures it just says "every planet" so it can mean a specific planet within every solar system.
Conerning the Tablet of Wisdom When I read this a while ago I did some research and found the chronology was not the accepted one of today. But if you have a good look at the tablet, Baha'u'llah is actually QUOTING (sorry to shout I want italics) muslim historians. In His own words He does not attribute His statements to Himself:
"Thou knowest full well that We have not perused the books which men possess and We acquired not the learning current amoungst them, and yet whenever We desire to QUOTE the sayings of the learned and of the wise, presently there will appear before the face of thy Lord in the form of a tablet all that hath appeared in the world and is revealed in the Holy Book and Scriptures" p149
Thus it is clear that Baha'u'llah is quoting historians. Also see the note on p144 whicih tells you who these historians are so you can independantly check out the facts for yourself.
But the reason why I came to write to you was the fact that I noticed the word "possibly" acting on your statment concerning "Baha'u'llah not possibly being a prophet". Well you see, that is where I cannot find any ground to agree with you. If you think over 20,000 people could willingly sacrificing themselves for someone who can't possibly be a prophet; if you think more than this amount could throw away a life of luxury, security and wealth for torchure, poverty and hardship for the sake of one Who is not a prophet; if you think thousands of fanatical and blood thirsty clerics could become follows of a Person of Who cannot POSSIBLY be a prophet; if you think that a person who cannot possibly be a Prophet can fulfill prophecies of the worlds religions very clearly (whether you accpet the fulfillments or not is irrelevant because millions of other people do which says alot); if you think that a message which is dissolving racial differences and creating peace cannot be from a prophet; then I see no logic in your answer.
You admit Baha'u'llah was a "great man" not a prophet. Ok then, so does that make Him a liar? Why would He give away EVRYTHING HE HAD: His freedom, His wealth, His familty and status to maintain a complete falsehood? Why would he consent to torture, imprisonment and starvation for a Message which He, Himself did not believe in? The thing is, when you do your history and your sums simultaneously it all boils down to a number of things: Baha'u'llah was Who He said He was, He was a liar (which is illogical) or He was a madman. Concerning the latter argument - no one EVER said this about Baha'u'llah - even His enemies. All those Who met Him were convinced of this fact. I reccommend you get hold of a history of Baha'u'llah's life and see what happened to Him for yourself. His story and the story of the Baha'is belittles the holocaust. One story has just come to mind: a number of Baha'i women and children were rounded up in their hometown and led to a cave. They were placed in the cave and it was filled with sticks and wood. The people who did this then lit a fire and closed the entrance to the cave with a boulder leaving them all to burn to death. When the cave was found later, they found all these burned bodies huddled together with the children wrapt around their mothers in a charred heap. Good God! These people could have saved themselves from this fate had they recanted. But they didn't - some false prophet! Baha'is being fired from cannons, forced ot eat their own ears and eyes, beaten and branded. These things happened on a huge scale and they would rather endure this than deny Baha'u'llah yet you say He was merely a "great man"? You cannot say this.
Ahh, the Torah. Yes - Baha'u'llah did say it was the word of God. I see no problem here. Abdu'l-Baha explained its metaphorical meaning and we see scripture being for a time. The torah is the word of God. If contains laws for 2000+ years ago and it conatins beautiful poetry in genesis - for that is what it primarily is. I have had very long discussions on this topic with Anglican priests who have explained how it was written and the imagery which was current amoungst the people at the time and places of its employment. You will need to explain this point further for me to understand what angle you are coming from.
Dear friend - I see Baha'u'llah's message affecting the world because it was only since His revelation that gender equality, racial harmony and world peace have become the concerns of a global community and Baha'u'llah's message was sautrated with these themes and He further said that in time this would happen. He was the first prophet to say these things. Also, He refers to huge technological advancements taking place and since 1844 (prior to which the industrial, technological scientific development graphs were at a steady plateau) every field has gone boom. Infact, it was at the very time of the Bab's declaration that Henry Morse sent his first morse code message accross America which signifies the beginning of the technological age today. And here we are today, we make more advancment in 1 hour than was made in 10 years before the Bab. Baha'u'llah said that creation has been "revolutionised" with this revelation and this is indeed what has happened! The "old world" has ended. This is the "new era" foretold in the scriptures. I cannot give these theme any justice in this conversation. Books have been written on it, but my hope is to perhaps give you an inkling of what has happened to so you independantly investigate as you have been doing up till now.
Sorry this got so long (I hope it doesn't crash the board) but I felt you had to know these things. Correct me if i am wrong, but it seems that you are interested (or were) and got into some muslim internet sites attacking the faith. If you want to investigate Baha'is, by all means do this, but their motive is to retard the Baha'i and hurt its followers. Baha'u'llah says this is good, because this faith will feed of this opposition and indeed that was the very reason I became a Baha'i! But seriously, look at the big picture at the moment I think you are looking at only a very small part of it and not from a very independant perspective I might add.
this topic is closed - post at bahai-library.com/forum