Interview Between a Prominent Rabbi and 'Abdu'l-Bahá

Abdul-Baha: "You are most welcome Rabbi."

Rabbi: "I have long desired to meet you."

Abdul-Baha : "Very good; very good."

Rabbi: "Your address yesterday was excellent. I have had the pleasure of hearing you upon two other occasions, but your address of yesterday had an extraordinary universality. You have very clearly established the teachings of brotherhood but I am afraid that, although your principles are very lofty they will not be accepted by all the religionists and the workers for peace."

Abdul-Baha: "Reality will always be victorious. No one can stand before the onward march of reality. The phenomenal is always conquered by the eternal. All the contingent beings are defeated by the will of heaven. One small Arabian boy can lead two thousand camels in the Sahara. One intelligent Hindu boy can conquer an elephant."

Rabbi: "It is true. In the Bible we have the statement that 'A little child shall lead them.'"

Abdul-Baha: "Truth will always be victorious; therefore it does not know defeat but the people of reality must exert great effort, and if the people of reality neglect to display this effort that is another matter. The people of reality must demonstrate their willingness in this direction. They must realize that the greatest reality of this age is the oneness of the human world. They must forget traditions and imitations of the past. For instance, if we look upon the Catholic religion we see that they believe that an important part is the transubstantiation; that is, the change of the bread and wine into the body of Christ. If we ponder a little we realize that this is a non-essential. It is imitation and the reverse of reality.

"Again, if we look at the Hindus we see that they have made images and worship them as deities, and they have eight million such deities in their temples. It is evident that these are superstitions and imaginations. They worship the cow, the stone, the water and the forces of nature—all these are imitations of the past and they have no foundation whatever."

Rabbi: "Do you then regard the transubstantiation as being on the same ground as the worshipping of idols?"

Abdul-Baha: "All these are imitations. They have no reality. As these are the opposite of realities, therefore they have no foundation. Everything that keeps man away from God, is an idol. Everything which detracts man's attention from God is an idol, no matter what it is."

Rabbi: "Then every channel between God and His creature is an idol?"

Abdul-Baha: "Consider, let us not bind ourselves with imitations. Let us study the condition of the Jews for a moment. When they were in Egypt they were captives; they were poor; they were prisoners in the hand of Pharaoh; they were ignored; they were a dependent people, they were surrounded by all kinds of troubles and vicissitudes; the people looked down upon them; they were considered as outcasts. Then Moses came. He gathered them together; inspired them with the power of unity; imparted to them new life; taught them the laws of God encouraging them in the morals and virtues of humanity; delivered them from the hand of Pharoah; freed them from the bondage of captivity; educated them, trained them and carried them away from the land of darkness into the holy of holies of light. Their power was increased; their majesty became refulgent; their fame was spread throughout the world, until they were enabled to found the Solomonic sovereignty. In philosophy and art they attained such heights that the philosophers of Greece and Rome travelled long distances to learn from them. Now is it possible to say that to revere and respect these souls is equivalent to the worshipping of idols? We must respect Moses because he achieved a work which no one else could do. It is an evident fact that His Holiness Moses was a channel between God and man. No further proof is required for this. I do not attempt to prove the validity of Moses by pointing to his turning the rod into a serpent; instead I give evident proofs.

"Again you will note that His Highness Christ was a Jew. Ponder well over this matter: The Jews were captives in the hand of the Romans; they were their slaves. From every standpoint they were scattered and impoverished. Nebuchadnezzar carried seventy thousand of them into captivity at Babylon. Even today the tombs of Esther and Daniel are there. And afterwards what did Titus, the Roman Emperor, not do! He entirely destroyed the foundation of the Jewish temple. The effect of the destruction of Titus is manifest up to this time for we see them scattered all over the world. His Holiness Christ appeared and established unity among the Romans, the Greeks, the Chaldeans, the Assyrians, the Europeans and the Americans. He established a bond of unity between all the nations. All the great prophets, the kings and the worthies of the Israelitish nation could not make the Persians believe in Moses. All the prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Nehemiah, et al., could not make one Zoroastrian believe in Moses. But one Jew came and many millions believe in Him. He spread His name in the East and in the West. He caused the Bible to be translated in all the languages of the world, and today nearly every home contains a Bible. He demonstrated throughout the world to all the nations of the world that the Israelitish people were the chosen people, that the Israelitish prophets were the prophets of God, that their books were the books of God, that their words were the words of God. This is evident. These are not intellectual or traditional evidences but they are such evidences as permit of no discussion. Look at America. You see a Bible in almost every house that you enter. See what Christ has accomplished. Witness what one soul who was crucified has accomplished.

"When He was living upon the earth He was alone, ridiculed and rejected by His own people. Almost everybody cursed and ridiculed Him. His own relatives left Him; even His disciples almost abandoned Him; they placed upon His head a crown of thorns and paraded Him over the streets, and finally they crucified Him. He was alone! alone! but the traces of His work and the signs of His message have filled the world. Man must be just. After these statements no one can deny the greatness of Christ. Now is it evident to you that all these conditions among the nations are on account of injustice? If they had all been just they would have been united on this principle: that these prophets were channels for the bounty of God, for they were the first teachers of mankind.

"The philosophers are also teachers but all they could do was to teach themselves and a few other souls. But the prophets of God taught the whole world. They trained all the children of men in morals and ethics. Who can say that they failed to accomplish their work, and who would give the names of the philosophers the first place?"

Rabbi: "Indeed, indeed you are one of the greatest logicians of the world. Up to this time I have been talking to you as a man; now I will address you as a Rabbi. Your premises and syllogisms do not agree. It is not correct to say that Christ has accomplished all these things, for but few of his teachings were accepted until about three hundred and fifty years after his crucifixion—"

Abdul-Baha here exclaimed: "I understand, I understand," and then continued: "His Highness Moses laid the foundation but the result of His teachings became apparent during the time of Solomon. If there had been no Moses there would have been no Solomon. The sovereignty of Solomon was the outcome of the principles of Moses. If there had been no Moses the children of Israel would have been entirely lost, and up to this time they would have been slaves in the land of Pharoah. Their very name would have disappeared from the page of history. Moses laid down a few principles, but the results of those principles became apparent five hundred years afterward. If an inquirer is just he will realize that Moses laid with His own hand Solomonic universality. Likewise if His Highness Christ had not laid the foundations of Christianity, the evident signs which we see today would not have been realized.

"I scatter the seeds today, six months hence they may become apparent. In the meantime, can anyone deny the germination of these seeds, and when they are grown, repudiate the fact that these plants owe their origin to the seed?"

Rabbi: "Suppose that Christ was the Promised One of the Jews; how did the doctrine of divinity creep in among the Christians?"

Abdul-Baha: "Do not look upon the Christians of today. The Christians are today submerged in the sea of imitation. It is evident that man is the highest of God's creatures on the face of the earth. For example, there are certain attributes which are apparent in the mineral kingdom. The vegetable kingdom has the attributes existing in the mineral kingdom but with another attribute, which is the power of growth. The animal has the attributes of the mineral and the vegetable kingdoms but with another attribute, which is the power of instinct. Therefore the animal is a composite of the mineral and vegetable kingdoms, but man has the virtues of the mineral kingdom, the virtues of the vegetable kingdom, the virtues of the animal kingdom and another distinct virtue, which is that of intellect, consequently man is the highest creation of God. He is the peerless creature and in him are contained all the virtues of the human world.

"Christ was the mirror; God was the Sun. The Sun appeared with all its effulgence and splendor in the mirror; that is, the virtues, the perfections and the characteristics of God appeared in Christ. This is what is meant where it is written in the Bible that 'We have created man in our own image.' The perfect man is the visage and image of God, just as the mirror reflects the sun. We can not say that the sun has come down from heaven and has taken a place in the mirror. The sun is eternal, living in its own station. It had no ascent or descent, entrance or exit; but the rays and the heat of the sun have become fully reflected in the clear mirror. That is why Christ said the future is in the sun and the sun is in the future. The Sun of Truth reflected itself in the mirrors of Moses and Christ."

Rabbi: "Most wonderful! We must name this divine philosophy the philosophy of Abdul-Baha. I am extraordinarily delighted to have had this privilege to talk with you."

Abdul-Baha: "I am very happy indeed to meet you."

Rabbi: "I hope I will have the pleasure of meeting you again."

Abdul-Baha: "God willing. May you be under His protection."