my confusion

All research or scholarship questions
Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:35 am

Hi Nilofer:

You said:

nilofer wrote:my mother asked some mullah at my place and wat they said is that bahais are misguided.


He wouldn't have been a mullah had he said otherwise.

nilofer wrote:according to wat he said, after prophet muhammed and before the day of the judgement there will be no more prophets or messengers who will be sent down to earth. however, there will be the return of jesus christ. this will happen when the ressurection day nears and he will live for forty years n will marry n have children. but in between this ie, after prophet muhammed n the coming of jesus christ, there will come many false messengers claiming they r messengers sent by god. they will try to induce people to believe in them.they will remain untill jesus christ appears n then he will chase them away. it is upto us to remain firm in our belief n to believe that there will b no other messengers or prophets..


Well, I am happy despite what your mullah says that you are still skeptical.

Looking back on history, don't we see that God sends His Prophets when a decadent society needs a new direction, one in which humanity with its old religion and ancient teachings cannot correct?

When a great many adherents of a religion cannot correct but rather contribute to the worlds problems? When many of its followers kill not only those from other faiths, but also turn on themselves, killing their own women and children and destroying their religious heritage and monuments? Aren't these signs of an end of times? Aren't these indications that religion needs a new direction lest mankind destroy itself?

In the time of Muhammad, and afterwards up to a certain point, His Faith shined among the many other major world religions such as Christianity and Judaism, and the Muslims, through the spiritual energy that the nascent faith revitalized them with, were placed at the forefront of the arts and sciences. This was indeed proof that Muhammad was from God and the Message He brought was intended to replace the teachings of old.

As with past religious scriptures, the Koran talks about a Day of Judgment as a future day where evil will be triumphed over by the godly, where spectacular, miraculous events will occur. And it isn't just the Koran that talks about the end of times in such terms. So does the Torah, the New Testament, etc.

It didn't happen for the Jews or Christians the way most of their followers wanted it to happen. Most interpreted their scriptures in such a way that would keep their leaders and themselves in power. When religion gets old, power and prestige are valued over religiousness. The leaders assign interpretations to their holy Texts that go contrary to their true meaning, and in doing so they keep their followers in a large part blind. "Verily, they who believe not and pervert from the way of God, have indeed erred with error wide of truth" (4:167). And it is always that people within a Faith pervert the words of their own Texts. These are the gainsayers that the Koran warns of.

So the Day of Resurrection, according to the Baha'i Faith, has already come to pass. Though not obvious to many Muslims, most of the major prophesies have been fulfilled symbolically, which we have been discussing...

nilofer wrote:now i only want to know wat response shd i give to tht mullah..i personally dont believe in mullahs but there r no other person who knows the exact truth as bahai religion is not heard of at my place ( south india) why did he say such a thing.. is there any element of truth in wat he said?.. richard.. bahai warrior.. abbas...need ur help my friends...!!!!


Nilofer, again, the last place you will get accurate information from about the Baha'i Faith is from a mullah or other Muslim clergyman. This site provides a good overview of the Baha'i Faith and its principles, "The Baha'is of India," (what better site for you to check out:) http://www.bahaindia.org/. [url]bahai.us[/url] is also recommended.

Again, your mullah said such a thing because first of all he likely didn't go out and seek the facts for himself, and secondly, he has a certain degree of prestige being a mullah, as so many clergymen of other faiths in power.

Nilofer: The teachings from the Koran are for people that lived long ago. You are a women, so do you believe that you are inferior to men? Technically, to be a "good" Muslim, you have to believe that women are inferior to men because that is what the Koran says for example in the surah "An-Sina," or "Women":

"Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God hath gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them" (4:34).

And in the Muslim world as a whole, women are dominated over by the men, and it is not rare even in this day and age (even in a place like Turkey!) for a women to be killed by her brothers or the other men in her family for some minor offense, hence "honor killings." There was a story I just saw about these Muslims where the father was dying, and the daughter spoke out and said she wanted some of the inheritance, and the brothers wanted to kill her because of it. The father merely suggested the brothers to spare her life, but they killed her anyway. It isn't just for offenses such as fornication or adulty that women in the Muslim world are killed for, it is also for much minor offenses such as when she tries to have some say in a matter.

The Baha'i Faith asserts that the old teachings are keeping people back from advancing. As you will see in the link that I gave you, "The Bahá'ís work for the removal of prejudices based on caste, creed, religion, sex, colour, race and language." The Baha'i teachings state that in this Day, all people are equal, and to see oneself superior to another human being is wrong and sinful.

The page (http://www.bahaindia.org/intro/cardinal.html) also states that

"An independent investigation is essential to arrive at truth. True religion conforms to reason. The Bahá'ís are free from superstitions, outdated ceremonies, rituals and dogmas."

(By the way, on the link that I gave you is a page titled "The Bahá'í Office for the Advancement of Women" http://www.bahaindia.org/offices/womenintro.html that you may be interested in.)

So it is good to see that you have taken this initiative (investigating), to start trying to find the answers for yourself. If you are interested, you can contact the Baha'is in your area. At Baha'i gatherings there sometimes are seekers as well, and if you become more interested you are encouraged to meet with the Baha'is in your area and get more accurate information there, see what they are like, etc.

BTW, the most number of Baha'is in the world are in India (maybe its because of the beautiful temple over there :P).

Take care, and I hope that I said at least something useful...

Warrior

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:45 am

Abbas:

I can see this is going no where, and I think Richard saw this long before.

I hope you at least admit that the majority of people of particular religions were wrong in their (mis)interpretations of the Texts, as the Koran says, and thus the Manifestation of God passes them by without them knowing it. And their day of judgments didn't happen the way they wanted it to happen. Will yours happen the way that you want it to happen? The Koran is a code, and if you correctly decipher the code, you will find Baha'u'llah.

Some people can see God's new religion when He sends it, because, as the Koran says, He has allowed them to see. Hopefully we Baha'is are among those who, by the grace of God, were made able to see His Truth.

I hope you continue on your spiritual quest, Abbas, if you are still after such a quest. But if you are happy with Islam, then I also wish you the best.

Your brother under Adam,

Warrior

playexyshoola
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:41 am

Postby playexyshoola » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:55 pm

Warrior

Why is it that you think your debate is going no where, by reading the past posts between you and th other guys...its quite intresting to see hw you are actually debating with one another...and now all of a sudden you see no point into it....remember no one will force their beliefs to others...we can only guide one and other to the correct path to serve allah...if debating with one another is teh way..then let it be..dnt hide the truth...SPEAD and SHARE the truth with others of all religions...

asal

choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Postby choogue » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:17 am

BW,

I can see this is going no where, and I think Richard saw this long before.


I think we learnt a lot from each other though. Although we will agree that people will interpret things differently to others and people will see things that are not there and not see things that are there, i wouldnt say our "debate" went to waste as i learnt many things about Bahai and many things about Islam from the research.

I appreciate your ongoing assistance and your guidance in my quest for the Truth. I cannot say I have confirmed that Bahaullah is or isnt the next manifestation, but my ongoing research will surely prove to me.

At the moment, the verses shown to me are clear in one way as they are clear to you in another way. My research will continue through the reading of Bahuallah's literature and any further questions i will post them.

I hope you at least admit that the majority of people of particular religions were wrong in their (mis)interpretations of the Texts, as the Koran says, and thus the Manifestation of God passes them by without them knowing it.


Ofcourse i admit that people were wrong in their interpretations, otherwise the whole world would have accepted the Prophet Muhammad(a.s), but i also admit that people have accepted false religions by their interpretations, such as the Ahmadiyya, which im sure you would agree with this too.

And their day of judgments didn't happen the way they wanted it to happen. Will yours happen the way that you want it to happen?


Their previous religions Day of Judgement hasnt happened yet. They are still waiting just as the Muslims are.

The Koran is a code, and if you correctly decipher the code, you will find Baha'u'llah


The Quran is not created to confuse people. It is straight forward, but people can interpret any sort of literature to suit their needs. Ill have to read the whole Quran before i can deny/accept Bahaullah, because i may come across a verse which clearly states that there is another Messenger. I will read it with an open mind. ;)

Some people can see God's new religion when He sends it, because, as the Koran says, He has allowed them to see. Hopefully we Baha'is are among those who, by the grace of God, were made able to see His Truth.


Yes but you cant accept a new religion without reading the facts first. There has been false Prophets before and im sure there will be other false Prophets and with these false prophets there will always be followers. To determine the truth, we investigate and not follow blindly.

I hope you continue on your spiritual quest, Abbas, if you are still after such a quest. But if you are happy with Islam, then I also wish you the best.

Your brother under Adam,

Warrior


Thankyou BW. I am still on my quest and inshallah the truth will be revealed to me. At the moment i am happy with Islam and if i choose to stay with Islam I will not bother you.

Again, i really appreciate your assistance BW and im sure ill chat to you soon.

Regards
Abbas

choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Postby choogue » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:24 am

Asal,

Why is it that you think your debate is going no where, by reading the past posts between you and th other guys...its quite intresting to see hw you are actually debating with one another...and now all of a sudden you see no point into it....remember no one will force their beliefs to others...we can only guide one and other to the correct path to serve allah...if debating with one another is teh way..then let it be..dnt hide the truth...SPEAD and SHARE the truth with others of all religions...


As BW and i have discussed, people can interpret things the way they want and as the Quran states, some people will simply not see the truth, so the debate can continue and at some point we will need to put a stop to it.

This discussion has taught me a lot and im sure it has taught many other readers who were following it, so i dont think BW is saying there is no point to this.

Maybe you just enjoy people debating and therefore want us to continue? ;) (kidding)

Regards
Abbas

choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Postby choogue » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:36 am

Nilofer,

my mother asked some mullah at my place and wat they said is that bahais are misguided. according to wat he said, after prophet muhammed and before the day of the judgement there will be no more prophets or messengers who will be sent down to earth. however, there will be the return of jesus christ. this will happen when the ressurection day nears and he will live for forty years n will marry n have children. but in between this ie, after prophet muhammed n the coming of jesus christ, there will come many false messengers claiming they r messengers sent by god. they will try to induce people to believe in them.they will remain untill jesus christ appears n then he will chase them away. it is upto us to remain firm in our belief n to believe that there will b no other messengers or prophets..
now i only want to know wat response shd i give to tht mullah..i personally dont believe in mullahs but there r no other person who knows the exact truth as bahai religion is not heard of at my place ( south india) why did he say such a thing.. is there any element of truth in wat he said?.. richard.. bahai warrior.. abbas...need ur help my friends...!!!!


You can only respond to the Mullah after you have researched it yourself. It always good to ask people that have studied the religion there whole life as they have a lot of knowledge, but this doesnt mean you should follow them blindly.

Allah has created us with our own brain therefore you are required to investigate the truth. Whether the Mullah is right or not about the Baha's being misguided, you are the only person that can prove this to yourself.

Ask a lot of questions from Muslims and Bahais and make your own judgement on what sounds right and research it.

Since the Bahais believe in the Quran, you should really take time to have a read of It and also read Bahaullahs literature and then determine which interpretations sound more clear to you.

The Bahais take some of the Quran's literature as symbolic, while the Muslims take it as literal. Its up to you to decide which is more clear to you.

My main advice is to always ask questions. You learn a lot from knowledgable people.

Regards
Abbas

playexyshoola
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:41 am

Postby playexyshoola » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:35 pm

abbas

Debating is surely intresting...but i dont understand why one must give up if they truely believe what they follow is the ONE...why just give up????....that to me is a point of WEAKNESS....im not sure how u might se it...I dont much about my Religion ( Bahai )...but now that i know a little more...I have many questions that i want answers...and as i have mentioned before...SYMBOLIC is not good enough for an answer...We muct think Logically and open our eyes and ears when we are investigating the truth...

I hope allah will guide us all to the correct path...He is the Wise, The almighty, The all Merciful.....

asal

choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Postby choogue » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:26 pm

Asal,

Debating is surely intresting...but i dont understand why one must give up if they truely believe what they follow is the ONE...why just give up????....that to me is a point of WEAKNESS


The reason people give it up is to avoid a debate getting into a heated argument. We are all brothers/sisters here so we should avoid arguments. The main aim is to learn about it so BW and I have placed our points and people can learn from it.

I dont much about my Religion ( Bahai )...but now that i know a little more...I have many questions that i want answers...and as i have mentioned before...SYMBOLIC is not good enough for an answer...


If symbolic isnt a good enough answer, then maybe Bahai isnt the correct religion for you?

We muct think Logically and open our eyes and ears when we are investigating the truth...

I hope allah will guide us all to the correct path...He is the Wise, The almighty, The all Merciful.....


Correct. But logical for you could be illogical for someone else.

Inshallah Allah will guide you, Asal.

Regards
Abbas

playexyshoola
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:41 am

Postby playexyshoola » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:35 pm

abbas

SYMBOLIC is surely not a good enough answer...thats why i will continue my research...

I will make sure not to give up.....looks like thats the only safe way out around here...lol

All the best

asal

choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Postby choogue » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:45 pm

Asal,

SYMBOLIC is surely not a good enough answer...thats why i will continue my research...


If its not a good enough answer, then you are going against the teachings of your Prophet, therefore wouldnt the UHJ revoke your membership card?

Or you are in hiding? Do you actually involve yourself with the Bahai community? Do they know how you think about the symbolism?

Regards
Abbas

playexyshoola
Posts: 0
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:41 am

Postby playexyshoola » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:51 pm

abbas

Im not hiding...i will write a letter to the UHJ..and hopefully they can provide me a reasonable answer and explain to me were this whole symbolism thing came from....

abbas tell me one thing who is more important GOD...or UHJ?....I just answered your question...

asal

choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Postby choogue » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:15 pm

Asal,

God ofcourse is more important than the UHJ and im sure all the Bahais know this.

Regards
Abbas

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:17 pm

asal wrote:abbas tell me one thing who is more important GOD...or UHJ?....I just answered your question...


Surely no man or institution is more important than God. But the UHJ has been divinely appointed, and in my opinion, whatever the UHJ declares is the same as God declaring it, since their decisions are infallible.

If if one claims to be a Baha'i, one can't go against them or their judgment, otherwise there will be anarchy (disunity).

Noisiodimelem
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:25 pm

Postby Noisiodimelem » Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:49 am

werez every1 gone? i dont see any more posts here

Noisiodimelem
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:25 pm

Postby Noisiodimelem » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:04 am

hey richard.. i see tht theres still so much confusion n it is increasing only. i recieved a mail frm some1 few days back who was speaking against this religion. that person may or may not be a bahai but the things tht he said made me to think n its getting me diverted too. now my posts shd be "completely confused".. man im getting tired of this.. richard u knw wat.. i donno wat to do..

brettz9
Posts: 1366
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:12 pm
Contact:

Postby brettz9 » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:53 am

Hello Nilofer,

Firstly, you don't need to have any fear of searching the Truth. 'Abdu'l-Baha said that a man must be willing, even to old age, to be willing to start his search all over again.

You should also know that many people visiting this forum are not Baha'is--or because it is a prominent website, they may be specifically against the Baha'i Faith, have grudges against it, or may in a few cases be Covenant-breakers.

So, the important thing is to study first and foremost the Writings yourself. You need to be able to answer the questions for yourself. The answers are all in the Writings. You may need to take some time to reflect on it, but you should not be too anxious about it. Although we should be very careful about even people who are smooth-tongued (as 'Abdu'l-Baha says the Covenant-breakers will be), it is not helpful to possess more fear than hope (as our Writings also suggest). God is very loving, and we shouldn't be too worried about it--except if that worry will help us to study more deeply.

Although Baha'is here may be able to help you with some questions, it really depends on you and will take time and patience. Maybe your circumstances now are a call from Baha'u'llah so that you become more like Tahirih--a skilled and fearless teacher of the Faith.

As far as your original questions, you should know that there are many signs--including physical ones even--that have accompanied the birth of this Revelation. Our Writings also tell about the great wonders of how well the Faith did in fact spread to other countries so quickly, yet on the other hand the Writings also state that the Baha'i Faith is like such movements that will spread gradually.

Also, you should know that our Writings specifically foretell that Islam would undergo very severe and long-lasting hardships because of their treatment of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh--although we have full confidence that the banner of the Faith will fly ultimately in these Islamic countries in the future also--such as Shoghi Effendi said would happen at the famous el-Azhar University in Egypt--and that it would be the West, (and even more than the West, other less developed countries throughout the world)--that would show more openness to the Faith, it will take more time for Islamic countries to open up. God works in mysterious ways.

Baha'is are not forbidden to read arguments against the Faith. If others can prove the Faith wrong, then we as human beings should be open to it. On the other hand, just as I will cling to a scientific view of the world, and not be so "open" to superstititous ideas, I feel one can also find much solidity in clinging to the Baha'i Faith. You have to question many of the arguments that are brought against the Faith and what are the reasons for it. If you read the Qur'an too, you will see that the same reasons people are objecting to the Faith now are the exact same objections His Holiness Muhammad faced. Our Faith is very strong; if it is Truth, we don't need to be fearful that it will fall. However, we should have a little fear that if we don't search out the Truth enough, that others will be able to be successful in spreading harmful falsehoods. But never despair--even if it takes you your whole life to find the Truth, as Baha'u'llah suggests the true seeker must have steadfast patience.

all the best,
Brett


Return to “Discussion”