Technically, it isn't obvious that the distinction between symbolism and literalism in the Koran is clear if I haven't shown otherwise.
Because your following the belief that indicates that it isnt obvious. If someone just reads the Quran, using their commonsense, symbolism vs literal verses will be clear to the reader.
Abbas, sorry, but obviously you are not familiar with the scholarship out there.
I understand scholarship very well. Just as i have explained, they know everything about the Quran and Hadith therefore assist the people in understanding difficult verses. Obviously this isnt the only thing, but scholar is not their to make sure we differentiate between symbolism and literal verses.
What are your intentions, if I may ask? To defend your idea that the meaning of verses are easily understood to be symbolic/literal by the lay reader? Or to "defend" Islam?
The Quran shows that the difference between literal and symbolic verses are clear. Not me. So i dont need to defend it. As explained, it is obvious to a reader unless they want to look deeper into verses and make them symbolic and try explain it. This is basically what the Quran has warned us.
Dont need to defend Islam. If Islam is the true path, it can defend itself.
How are you defending Islam if God has sent another Messenger?
Lets say i was defending Islam. What if Allah hasnt sent another Messenger? Therefore i would be defending Islam.
So far, the Mahdi returning could still be a possibility, but there hasnt been anything to indicate another Messenger will come or has come. The interpretations presented are weak, in my mind, as so many times the verses were taken out of context and interpreted to suit certain interests.
When a new Day has come, do you really think that the prophets of old are somehow happy that you are still clinging to and endorsing their faiths, resisting the new Day which they themselves informed you about? And using their holy words against them, by showing that neither Koran nor hadith talk about a coming Revelation?
Lets turn this around. If a new Day hasnt come, do you think Allah will be happy that you have interpreted the Quran against the Prophets teachings? Changing the Prophets words to suit certain interpretations?
Again, i will need to read the whole Quran to determine if it mentions another Messenger. Surely the Quran wouldnt contradict itself.
And perhaps you might see that actually you yourself are "picking and choosing" which verses to interpret as symbolic or literal.
No the symbolic verses are obvious. Why is it that there are some symbolic verses that are obvious and then from what your saying, other symbolic verses that are difficult to realise? We both would agree on some obvious symbolic verses but then disagree on the ones that you claim to be symbolic. Why would Allah confuse us? Why would it not be explained simply? Why would it not mention in the Quran that it is difficult to differentiate between symbolic and literal verses? Since it doesnt, what authority does anyone have to inform us that it is difficult to differentiate between symbolic and literal verses? Since Allah did not mention this in the Quran, why would it be difficult then? There is no warning in the Quran of this, so therefore the symbolism and literal verses are made clear. Their meanings however will need interpretations.
For example, in a previous post you admitted that koranic verses referring to the stars falling from the sky at the Day of Judgment is symbolic. Yet you insist that the resurrection is literal.
I asked if you could refer to the verse since i wasnt sure which one you were referring to, but i also said it is obviously symbolic if it mentions that "stars are falling from the sky". i obviously need to read the verse first to make sure what it actually mentions.
Ofcourse i am insisting that the resurrection is literal since it doesnt show anywhere that it not. A third of the Quran talks about Judgement Day, so why wouldnt it of explained, atleast once, that Judgement Day is symbolic? I find that hard to believe.
Which is more miraculous? Stars falling from the sky, OR flesh out of nowhere forming around the skeletons of cadavers? Personally, stars literally falling from the sky is a lot more belivable to me than matter (flesh) coming out of nowhere and corpses being reanimated. Even in Night of the Living Dead the zombies at least still had most of their flesh and members already intact!
If you cant believe that then your suggesting Allah did not create us from nothing when He first created Adam(a.s)??
Plus your going against Allah's word in the Quran:[Pickthal 75:3] Thinketh man that We shall not assemble his bones?
[Pickthal 75:4] Yea, verily. We are Able to restore his very fingers!
Unless this is symbolic aswell, which i assume you believe it is....
I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. Hadith can be just as confusing as the Koran itself for people (like Muslim literalists) who assign literal meanings to verses, which just end up causing confusion and uncertainty (or certainty and clearity in uncertainty and confusion
Yes this is why scholars spend the whole life learning about the Quran and all the Hadith (even the fabricated ones). Study the Quran and Hadith, surely there are going to be people (scholars) who would have understood its meanings. In order to interpret the Quran, one must refer to the Hadith.
For example, in Imam Ali's "Sermon of the Gulf" (which I have previously referred to, on the Day of Judgement, he states:
[Note: Abbas, as I have shown you in this passage before, "Anicipate ye then the Revelation..." you are not only waiting for a Mahdi and Jesus, but also a new Messenger with His NEW Message (Book). More on this at the end of this post]
BW, i have looked everywhere for this "Sermon" and cannot find any references except in the Bahai library. Is this only available from the Bahai library and Muslims do not have it? Can you please help me find it so i can read it in the correct context? Thanks.
The following italicized text is a commentary with attempted humor to show the abusurdity of interpreting the events of the Day of Judgement literally:
...So now what? We've got a talking cow? (Maybe the Hindus were right after all.) Perhaps for clarification we should read even more hadith to find out if roosters, whales, and pigs will also talk on the day of judgement! Well, come to think of it, if pigs squeal anything, it will probably be "help!" since according to hadith when Jesus returns He will kill swine and break crosses.
So anyway, what do you say? The resurrection will still happen literally, but the prophesies of the stars falling from the sky is symbolic? Look, talking pigs and falling stars are a lot more plausible than zombies walking around on the streets. And anyway, how do these zombies survive? Do they have to kill those that didn't turn into zombies and eat their flesh, like in the zombie films? Hey, if they are getting their material bodies back, then they need some source of energy! In the zombie films, if they can't find food they will sometimes feed off themselves. So, in that case, if a zombie is hungry and nibbles his right arm off, does God restore his arm back? Or, alternatively, maybe the only body part that isn't restored is the stomach, and the zombies are instead solar powered? In that case, it'd be most unfortunate if the Sun were to fall...of course, stars hitting the earth wouldn't be desirable either, as it'd wipe out our globe and God would have to start all over again......or maybe stars can fall, but the zombies have a protective force field around them? Well, probably not—with the force field around them, they could not get at the humans. In any case, according to hadith of the Mahdi, he is to kill so many unrighteous persons that the blood will rise up to the stirrups of the horse. There we go! The zombies can drink from the blood—good source of nutrients and all. Except I'm sure that the blood-borne pathogens would make the drinking a most unpleasant experience. But what do zombies know?
What would make someone think that Allah(sw) is not capable of the resurrection? Now thats funny!
I guess its the same as the Atheists since they dont believe in Allah. I dont understand why it would be so hard to believe that Allah, the one who created us, is not able to bring us back! Atheists will obviously not believe this, but someone who believes in God......come on man! Unless ofcourse you believe in Allah but dont believe He is even able to create us?
Sorry for being facetious, as the Day of Resurrection, specifically those who are as dead being quickened by Baha'u'llah's Revelation, is indeed a serious matter. But looking to hadith could only "clear up the confusion" if the reader interprets the hadith correctly, and the verses of the Koran as well. Baha'u'llah is the One who has does this, and He clears up even more confusion. Only He, who Himself sent Muhammad, could perfectly know what every single verse in the Koran means—light years ahead of the understanding of all men combined.
??? Again with Bahaullah as God?? This is really confusing me!! So Bahaullah sent the Prophet Muhammad(a.s)????
Ofcourse your going to believe Bahaullah is the one that can interpret the Quran correctly. Im sure the Ahmadiyya believe their prophet did too.
So again, anyone is able to interpret the Quran to suit themselves, which is why the Quran is made obvious from what is literal and what is symbolic. If it wasnt clear, anyone can say that the flesh of swine can be eaten and use the excuse that it was a symbolic verse!!
The Baha'i view:
—Up until now the true meaning of the verses of the Koran were not known, at least by laymen, as many verses have been correctly and infallibly interpreted by Baha'u'llah, especially many controversial ones.
Fair enough. This is the Bahai view. But i hope you agree one day another new religion with a new prophet will also have their own view. Could be tomorrow. I believe the Ahmadiyya came about only 40 years after Bahai, so i guess it can happen at anytime.
Baha'u'llah explains this problem, which is illustrated in 50:20. Baha'u'llah shows how in this verse Muhammad is showing the reader that not only is the day of judgement symbolic, but it occured in Muhammad's own time! More accurately, the day of judgement will happen, but also happened when Muhammad started His Revelation. Baha'u'llah points to how the Muslim commentartors suggested that the word idhá (if or when) was meant to be in this verse but was accidentally left out. In trying to say that this word is left out, they are attempting to prove that 50:20 is not meant literally. This is an example of the symbolism vs. literalism not being obvious to the reader (though the reader tells himself that it's obvious)—though Baha'u'llah now makes its meaning obvious:
BW, again i have searched everywhere and cannot for the life of me find anywhere that it states that any Muslim suggest that the word Idha was meant to be in the verse. The only place i find this is in Bahai sources!
Not anywhere do i find that Muslims have said this is symbolic rather than literal! Except ofcourse in Bahai sources.
So would a Muslim rely on a Bahai source? Would you as a Bahai rely on a Muslim source?
I dont understand why any Muslim would even suggest
that verse 50:20 is not literal. Just read the verses before and after 50:20 and you will see what context it is in. Have you even read the Surah? If not read it and see for yourself what it is referring to.
It is talking about the disbelievers denying the resurrection:[Pickthal 50:2] Nay, but they marvel that a warner of their own hath come unto them; and the disbelievers say: This is a strange thing:
[Pickthal 50:3] When we are dead and have become dust (shall we be brought back again)? That would be a far return!
[Pickthal 50:4] We know that which the earth taketh of them, and with Us is a recording Book.
[Pickthal 50:5] Nay, but they have denied the truth when it came unto them, therefore they are now in troubled case.
It then continues to talk about how Allah has created everything around them such as the sky, earth, mountains, and how water is sent down to grow gardens and crops which the water is able to revive the dead land. It then explains that so would they resurrect the dead.
Since the unbelievers found it hard to believe that Allah is able to bring them back from the dead, the Quran shows that just like Allah can bring back the dead land, He can also bring back the dead. Verses:[Pickthal 50:6] Have they not then observed the sky above them, how We have constructed it and beautified it, and how there are no rifts therein?
[Pickthal 50:7] And the earth have We spread out, and have flung firm hills therein, and have caused of every lovely kind to grow thereon,
[Pickthal 50:8] A vision and a reminder for every penitent slave.
[Pickthal 50:9] And We send down from the sky blessed water whereby We give growth unto gardens and the grain of crops,
[Pickthal 50:10] And lofty date-palms with ranged clusters,
[Pickthal 50:11] Provision (made) for men; and therewith We quicken a dead land. Even so will be the resurrection of the dead.
The next verses talk about the denial of the messengers of Noahs people, tribe of Thamud, etc and then mentions how the threat came into effect, eg Noahs people were drowned. Verses:[Pickthal 50:12] The folk of Noah denied (the truth) before them, and (so did) the dwellers at Ar-Rass and (the tribe of) Thamud,
[Pickthal 50:13] And (the tribe of) A'ad, and Pharaoh, and the brethren of Lot,
[Pickthal 50:14] And the dwellers in the wood, and the folk of Tubb'a: every one denied their messengers, therefor My threat took effect.
[Pickthal 50:15] Were We then worn out by the first creation? Yet they are in doubt about a new creation.
Quran then refers to how Allah has created man and therefore will know everything about us. We have two Receivers/Angels/Observer that are seated on the left and right of us and no matter what we say, the Observer is ready to take it down. Verses:[Pickthal 50:16] We verily created man and We know what his soul whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.
[Pickthal 50:17] When the two Receivers receive (him), seated on the right hand and on the left,
[Pickthal 50:18] He uttereth no word but there is with him an observer ready.
NEXT.....The Quran tells us that death will then come to us. It then explains what will happen when we are dead. It is said to us "this is that which thou wast wont to shun" meaning that was it death that we wanted to escape from. And then, the trumpet is blown and the threatened day has come. Verses:[Pickthal 50:19] And the agony of death cometh in truth. (And it is said unto him): This is that which thou wast wont to shun.
[Pickthal 50:20] And the trumpet is blown. This is the threatened Day.
[Pickthal 50:21] And every soul cometh, along with it a driver and a witness.
[Pickthal 50:22] (And unto the evil-doer it is said): Thou wast in heedlessness of this. Now We have removed from thee thy covering, and piercing is thy sight this day.
[Pickthal 50:23] And (unto the evil-doer) his comrade saith: This is that which I have ready (as testimony).
When reading these verses it is plain and simple to see what context verse 20 is in!
The Quran is explaining first hand, what is happening to us when we are dead. Once the trumpet is blown, we will rise.
You have explained it totally out of context. As you can see from the verses when reading before and after, it is a description. Just reading that verse without placing it in the correct context, then YES, it would seem that the Quran is saying the threatened day is now! But, read the verses before and after it and you can see what context it is meant to be placed in!
There is no need for the word Idha and i cannot understand why any Muslim would say that word is missing! And i cannot understand why there would even be a need for the verse to be interpreted as symbolic.
Im using your advice by reading the verses beforehand, so i suggest you do the same. Anyone can take something out of context by reading one verse and interpreting it alone.
Yes, as I have just shown. There will be no literal day of judgement. The lesser day of judgement was the Bab's revelation, and the greater day of judgement is Baha'u'llah's. In 50:20, the reader is told that a day of judgement has already occured. Because, at the time of Muhammad, He quickened the ignorant and wayward from the death of ignorance to the life of knowledge (Islam).
So I have shown that it is
And so the Muslims who are waiting for the "end of days" day of judgement will be waiting for a very, very, very long time—perhaps until the sun does actually hit the earth—unless they read the Koran with the understanding that Baha'u'llah has provided.
Unless they read the verse in context, people will then understand that it is
literal and not symbolic. Referring to one verse and interpreting it alone is very misleading.
If, for example, a verse mentions "there is no God except the Idols" then do you just interpret that without looking at the previous verse and determine what context it is in? Ofcourse not! The previous verse may have mentioned that this is the Idolators way of thinking.
Again, the verse shows that the day of judgement is figurative. Therefore, many Muslims—except for the ones that read Baha'u'llah's explanation and realized the real meaning of verses—decided like every other religion in the past to hold on to their cherished literal interpretation. 50:20 is literal, that is, Baha'u'llah isn't even showing any symbolic meaning. The verse itself is literal. Again, the verse says:
"There WAS a blast on the trumpet" = the day of judgement at the time of Muhammad.
"It IS the threatened Day" = It is the day of judgement.
"And every soul IS summoned to a reckoning."
Already explained above....
This is going back to an old discussion. You rejected the idea that the Koran says that you can't see God. Whereas most other Muslims know that this verse means that you can't see God. Second of all, unless you actually read Baha'u'llah's Writings and follow His logic, you won't understand why the verse refers to a Manifestation of God. But this is from an old discussion, and I already gave you Baha'u'llah's explanation. If you read the Iqan you will come by it again.
No i said im not aware that we cant see
God but explained that even if we cant, doesnt mean we cant meet
This may be Bahaullahs logic, but it obviously differs from the Quran's logic since no other verse in the Quran speaks of something in a context and then all of a sudden is changed into another context. But as you said, this was from an old discussion and we'll leave the past in the past.
If God can raise the dead, and make the stars fall, etc., then why can't He protect the Mahdi? He's coming back in the most miraculous of ways anyway, so God might as well also protect him.
Being victorous doesnt mean you must live on. Why is it unbelievable that the Mahdi cant be killed after
being victorious?? It could be after 50 years or just after a day. At the end, the Mahdi would still be victorious!
Its like saying that why didnt God protect Bahullah? After all, He is a Manifestation of God and the return of Jesus. But im sure you would claim that Bahaullah was still victorious even though he was killed?
Heck, in the resurrection other people are coming back to life. Are any of these resurrected men better than the Mahdi? Or maybe it is assumed that the Mahdi is killed then is resurrected like the rest. Hmm....
First of all you need to understand that to the Shia Muslims, the Mahdi did not die but rather is in occultation.
Secondly, everyone will be resurrected. Including the Mahdi. Including the Prophets. Including YOU.
No, it's just a term. He's not materially God. That would be impossible, given that the Koran says that you can't see God.
Well i dont understand it. So is he spiritually God? Is that why you claim that he sent Prophets before him?? Im really getting confused with the term manifestation!
PROPHESIES WHICH STATE THAT ANOTHER WILL COME AFTER BAHA'U'LLAH LIKE MUHAMMAD BRINGING HIS OWN BOOK, AND HIS OWN REVELATION
Now, instead of quoting everything you have written under this title, im just going to quote the above.
In regards to the Hadith, once again i cannot find your information anywhere accept in the Bahai websites. This is obviously one problem.
The second problem is that the Bahai sources do not contain the whole Hadith, therefore, this again could be taken out of context.
So, in order to respond to your assumptions, could you please refer me to the Authentic Hadith so i can read it in the correct context? Thanks mate.
Obviously i cannot rely on just ONE passage since, as shown previously, it seems everything is taken out of context. Especially since there is Hadith where the Prophet Muhammad mentions: "The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me.
" You can search the following for references- Ref: Tirmidhi, Kitab-ur-Rouya Babu Zahab-un- Nubuwwa, Musnad Ahmad, Marwiyat-Anas bin Malik
So if this Hadith is saying another messenger, then there is a contradiction between hadiths. But then again, it depends on which Hadiths you would claim Authentic.
Anyway, I remember hearing something about the Imam Mahdi bringing a book with Him. Whilst you find me the Authentic Hadith that Bahaullah is referring to, ill do some research regarding the book that the Mahdi is bringing with him(that is, if He is bringing a book). Thanks matey!
At least you are doing what you were instructed to do, Abbas, which is hastening to Baha'u'llah since He has made the claim. I applaud you on that, Abbas. Many Muslims don't even do that.
Thanks champ. Its helping me learn more about your faith and mine, so i dont see any negatives in it.
Now you must study the IQAN...read it more than once if you have to...as Baha'u'llah might very well be the Messenger of God that you are waiting for. Until you read the Iqan all the way through, you won't clearly understand Baha'u'llah's relation to your prophesies.
I promise you i will read it all the way through.
Thank you Abbas. A man can only take so much organic chemistry...
Organice Chemistry??? Man, i dont know how you do it! I made sure i stayed away from chemistry ALL together!!