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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:57 pm
Ive seen these websites and im shocked that a bahai has not made a website arguing the point!!! I would love to but i dont know much about my faith.....
Maybe you should research your faith and be the one to answer these people? No matter what religion you are, no-one should be a follower without being a believer. You need to believe and know your religion to be able to follow it. Just born into a certain religion and simply following what your parents follow doesnt make you a true believer.
Research your faith and then maybe you will be able to answer these websites.
Does any bahai here that can read persian and can make arguments with these people? Our faith needs your help to stop people from running away from the truth
Maybe you should refer your friends to this forum and have them ask questions. Maybe you should also ask them why they turned away from the Bahai faith and try and answer them.
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:51 pm
Just ignore those anti-Baha'i websites. When you see a scorpion on the beach, you don't go and pet him, right?
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:21 pm
i know, i get sick of these sites.
so what religion are your friends now?
let's hope they get back into the baha'i faith!
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:32 am
I just can believe someone that can believe in something so much then turn! Muslims sure know how to influence them!!
Are you saying the websites influenced them or their Muslim friends/boyfriends/husbands?
Are you still friends with them or you dont talk to them anymore?
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:41 pm
O DWELLERS OF MY PARADISE!
With the hands of loving-kindness I have planted in the holy garden of paradise the young tree of your love and friendship, and have watered it with the goodly showers of My tender grace; now that the hour of its fruiting is come, strive that it may be protected, and be not consumed with the flame of desire and passion.
(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words 4)
O YE SONS OF SPIRIT!
Ye are My treasury, for in you I have treasured the pearls of My mysteries and the gems of My knowledge. Guard them from the strangers amidst My servants and from the ungodly amongst My people.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words 69)
One of the important principles related to our faith in Baha'u'llah is to guard it. We are repeatedly admonished to seek out those who are steadfast and pure, and to avoid those who test our faith. There is a time for everything. However, when you are a new recruit, that's not the time to go out on the battlefield and challenge a veteran. That over-confidence is a sign of immaturity, not a sign of strength.
But we are tested by our minds, which say "Oh, but we must face these people. We cannot be like those who go and hide. We have to confront them. We can handle any challenge, and it will strengthen us." But the soul is not yet ready for this.
If a believer who is well-informed, not only with facts, but with spiritual proofs of the Cause from his or her own life; then the bite of the snake does not kill him. Rather, it makes his blood a healing remedy for others who are bitten. But it is a dangerous dance, and if you go out and get bitten too soon, you get killed.
These websites take some fact, some fiction, and a lot of innuendo and suspicion, to weave a story of doubt.
What does Baha'u'llah tell the new believer to do? To pray, to study the Writings, to ponder them, to apply them in his or her life, and to serve the world with them. In this way, certitude develops. Then, gradually, the believer can face the challenger and the critic.
What does the mind say? "There's not enough time to read the Baha'i Writi9ngs. Here. Go read this website, it can't hurt you."
And because the believer is disobedient, and does not focus on strengthening his faith; and is susceptible to the taunting; he wanders out into a field that he is not yet ready for, and gets clobbered.
There is a time for everything. When the time is ripe, then, deadly poison becomes a healing remedy. Before that time -- it's just poison.
Loyalty to Moses and Jesus would lead that person, not to stay a Jew or a Christian, but to recognize and embrace the Prophet Muhammad, who fulfilled prophecies in both the Old and New Testaments, and brought a pure Revelation from God. Moses and Christ are not pleased when one of their followers rejects Muhammad.
Likewise, loyalty to Muhammad does not mean to remain a Muslim, but to recognize the fulfilment of Islam in the Persons of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. And those who spread fear of Baha'u'llah, who smear Him, are rendering a service to no one including themselves.
"Thy vision is obscured by the belief that divine revelation ended with the coming of Muhammad, and unto this We have borne witness in Our first epistle. Indeed, He Who hath revealed verses unto Muhammad, the Apostle of God, hath likewise revealed verses unto Ali-Muhammad. For who else but God can reveal to a man such clear and manifest verses as overpower all the learned? Since thou hast acknowledged the revelation of Muhammad, the Apostle of God, then there is no other way open before thee but to testify that whatever is revealed by the Primal Point hath also proceeded from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting."
(Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 31)
"Ye have disbelieved your Lord. If ye are truly faithful to Muhammad, the Apostle of God and the Seal of the Prophets, and if ye follow His Book, the Qur'án, which is free from error, then here is the like of it -- this Book, which We have, in truth and by the leave of God, sent down unto Our Servant. If ye fail to believe in Him, then your faith in Muhammad and His Book which was revealed in the past will indeed be treated as false in the estimation of God."
(Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 46)
One more point on these websites. They offer the ability to provide feedback -- this is purely cosmetic, not real. If they were real, they would post the comments of others. But they do not want the reader to see the challenges to their website, to have the weaknesses exposed. So they give the *appearance* of open-mindedness. They ignore the comments entirely, share them with no one, and continue on their way.
"It is clear and evident that the object of all preceding Dispensations hath been to pave the way for the advent of Muhammad, the Apostle of God. These, including the Muhammadan Dispensation, have had, in their turn, as their objective the Revelation proclaimed by the Qá'im. The purpose underlying this Revelation, as well as those that preceded it, has, in like manner, been to announce the advent of the Faith of Him Whom God will make manifest."
(Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 105)
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:22 pm
I know exactly how it feels like to be pressured to read those websites...my boyfriend is muslim...we are deeply in love and planning to build a future together..and this will not happen until we research and find out the truth..to which religion is the one sent down by Allah to follow...
I hope your firends did not make a decision..under pressure of other Muslims...i am personally taking my time to research both religiond and Inshallah See the truth..and follow the correct path..
Inshallah Allah will guide us all to the correct path..
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:36 pm
Cel, something about this story is not ringing true. It is pretty rare for Baha'is to turn away from the Baha'i Faith to Islam, because Baha'is already believe in the Prophet Muhammad and His Book, and the understanding and clarification of the Mission of Muhammad and His Message is so attractive in the Baha'i Faith. Where do these three people live? It is rare that someone would turn away from Baha'u'llah just by reading a website.
Every Prophet of God has had His critics. Most of the accusations from these sites quote from unreliable or un-reachable documents. How many quotes from the Baha'i Writings do you find there? It would be as if someone spoke against The Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ, based on the many crazy stories against them, that have existed for centuries.
Again, where are these three people? Did they resign formally from the Baha'i Faith? How? Did they write to the National Spiritual Assembly? This can be verified. I just find this an extraordinary statement.
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:47 pm
The only consideration that these rebellious souls should be given is if they are to be refuted. Maybe we should build some site that provides an answer to anti-, ex-Baha websites? Baha'u'llah says that one who raises his pen in defence of the Faith will be blessed with manifold confirmations.
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:56 pm
"Unbowed by adversity, disdainful of the clamors, undeterred by the machinations of the inveterate, artful, traditional enemies who are alarmed by their own declining fortunes, contrasting with the evidence of the dynamic force, impelling power, rising prestige, indivisible unity, accumulating resources, multiplying institutions and inextinguishable spirit of God's infant Faith, it behoveth them to bend their energies, rise to higher levels of consecration, vigilantly combat all forms of misrepresentations, eradicate suspicions, dispel misgivings, silence criticisms, through still more compelling demonstration of loyalty to their respective governments, win, maintain and strengthen the confidence of the civil authorities in their integrity and sincerity, reaffirm the universality of the aims and purposes of the Faith, proclaim the spiritual character of its fundamental principles, and assert the non-political character of its administrative institutions.(Shoghi Effendi, Messages to the Baha'i World - 1950-1957, p. 87)
We should strive to use the opposition as a healing remedy, to purify our own deeds and draw us closer to God.
If someone claims to be a Baha'i, who knows three people who rejected Baha'u'llah merely by reading a website rife with errors, I wish to have that Baha'i identified. I'm sure you would not mind, Cel, providing your true identity to a local spiritual assembly who could verify your identity, and also your claim to know these three people?
We should also remember that in every Dispensation it is the deeds of the heroes in that Day, who turn enemies of the Truth into its close supporters. St. Paul was an enemy of Christianity. He was turned into its great supporter, by witnessing the spirit of St. Stephen as he was martyred.
"Let not, however, the invincible army of Bahá'u'lláh, who in the West, and at one of its potential storm centers is to fight, in His name and for His sake, one of its fiercest and most glorious battles, be afraid of any criticism that might be directed against it. Let it not be deterred by any condemnation with which the tongue of the slanderer may seek to debase its motives. Let it not recoil before the threatening advance of the forces of fanaticism, of orthodoxy, of corruption, and of prejudice that may be leagued against it. The voice of criticism is a voice that indirectly reinforces the proclamation of its Cause. Unpopularity but serves to throw into greater relief the contrast between it and its adversaries, while ostracism is itself the magnetic power that must eventually win over to its camp the most vociferous and inveterate amongst its foes. Already in the land where the greatest battles of the Faith have been fought, and its most rapacious enemies have lived, the march of events, the slow yet steady infiltration of its ideals, and the fulfillment of its prophecies, have resulted not only in disarming and in transforming the character of some of its most redoubtable enemies, but also in securing their firm and unreserved allegiance to its Founders. So complete a transformation, so startling a reversal of attitude, can only be effected if that chosen vehicle which is designed to carry the Message of Bahá'u'lláh to the hungry, the restless, and unshepherded multitudes is itself thoroughly cleansed from the defilements which it seeks to remove."
(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, pp. 42-43)
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:14 pm
"If any man were to arise to defend, in his writings, the Cause of God against its assailants, such a man, however inconsiderable his share, shall be so honored in the world to come that the Concourse on high would envy his glory. No pen can depict the loftiness of his station, neither can any tongue describe its splendor. For whosoever standeth firm and steadfast in this holy, this glorious, and exalted Revelation, such power shall be given him as to enable him to face and withstand all that is in heaven and on earth. Of this God is Himself a witness."
(Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 330)
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:39 pm
Some of the stuff on these websites is so crazy it makes everyone laugh -- except the Muslims who will believe absolutely any criticism of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who created this website. Amanat in his history of the Babi period quoted the following, but the way he quotes it, he is making fun of it, and in a scholarly way saying he doesn't believe a word of it -- which escapes the author of the website, quoting Amanat, quoting "Sipihr":
"Sipihr, the Qajar Court chronicler mustering the full force of his sobriety, reports that Qurratul Ayn Tahera not only believed in the unveiling of women, but endorsed the marriage of one wife to nine husbands. For her public addresses, he says: "She would decorate her assembly room like a bridal chamber and her body like a peacock of Paradise. Then she summoned the followers of the Bab and appeared unveiled in front of them. First she ascended a throne and like a pious preacher reminded them of Heaven and Hell and quoted amply from the Qur'an and the Traditions. She would tell them: "Whoever touches me, the intensity of Hell's fire would not affect him." The audience would then rise and come to her throne and kiss those lips of hers which put to shame the ruby of Ramman, and rub their faces against her breasts, which chagrined the pomegranates of the garden."
And on another page:
"Only when we recall the incident of Badasht where Tahera declared that Bab has the right to give a believer anybody's wife."
This is just silly. It is fabricated history, in the same way the Iranian muslims are fabricating things in the newspapers to inflame the population of Iran against the Baha'is there, so they can assault those pure and blameless souls.
My guess is that we are now dealing on this list with Iranian Muslims, probably from Tablighat-e-Islami.
Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:22 pm
pilgrimbrent wrote:"Sipihr, the Qajar Court chronicler mustering the full force of his sobriety, reports that Qurratul Ayn Tahera not only believed in the unveiling of women, but endorsed the marriage of one wife to nine husbands. For her public addresses, he says: "She would decorate her assembly room like a bridal chamber and her body like a peacock of Paradise. Then she summoned the followers of the Bab and appeared unveiled in front of them. First she ascended a throne and like a pious preacher reminded them of Heaven and Hell and quoted amply from the Qur'an and the Traditions. She would tell them: "Whoever touches me, the intensity of Hell's fire would not affect him." The audience would then rise and come to her throne and kiss those lips of hers which put to shame the ruby of Ramman, and rub their faces against her breasts, which chagrined the pomegranates of the garden."
This is really despicable, this rot. It really is saddening to see such misguided souls having nothing better to do than spread lies about the Baha'i Faith and ridicule its central figures like that. You know a religion is dead when its followers resort to fouling the name of the Faith with fabricated, outlandish tales. And on top of that, the lascivious stories that they compose is unacceptable.
Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:16 pm
Celeste R wrote:Two of them became Muslims and the other one doesnt know yet.
wow. now were your 3 friends originally born baha'i, or did they convert? because it's scary that they become muslims!
Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:31 am
Sorry, I never got around to stating what an excellent answer I think Abbas gave. As Richard also well said, we have to avoid over-intellectualisms, but I do think it is important for ourselves to be well-informed and be able to respond as best as possible.