RESIST NOT EVIL, YEA, EVEN RETURN GOOD FOR EVIL

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Re: RESIST NOT EVIL, YEA, EVEN RETURN GOOD FOR EVIL

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:34 am

richard wrote:Thank you again, Brett, and correct me if you think i am wrong, but Jesus' views above seem very consistent with the Baha'i teachings and your stated understandings of them in your reply to Zazaban and BW on the thread about the picture of Baha’u’llah picture on wikipedia… richard


Of course "Jesus' views above seem very consistent with the Baha'i teachings," 100%. Baha'u'llah, the Sender of the Messengers, sent Jesus; we believe that He did. So therefore, Jesus' teachings are wholly in conformity with the Baha'i teachings, the essential parts anyway.

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Postby brettz9 » Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:25 am

Hello Richard, BW, and all,

My points to BW was simply of word choice; I believe, as he stated, he did not mean to imply we should return any kind of evil for evil. But I hope we can all take a lesson from this that zeal can very easily be confused with aggression, especially among those not familiar with the Baha'i community. If others consistently respond in a certain way to our words, we really need to take a look at how we are saying something--even if in our hearts we have the best of intentions.

In my own experience, I might say that such situations were often due to the fact that in other areas of life I was pushing myself too hard or failing to sustain myself adequately. I don't know if this is the case at all with our friend, BW, but given that I know he takes the Faith quite admirably to heart (unlike many others who do not appreciate its bounty or take it as a light thing), I wonder whether as a student (premed at that) he is maybe pushing himself a bit too hard! I only say this out of genuine concern and with some experience with the conditions I am describing (especially before I was married). Balance is, I am still frequently rediscovering, of the utmost necessity. My apologies, BW, if this is too personal or irrelevant of a supposition.

Anyhow, Richard, I thought you might appreciate the following talk 'Abdu'l-Bahá gave while visiting New York City. As I think you may be able to see from this (if not the countless other Writings filled with moral admonitions and praise of Christ and His glorious message and eternal deeds),

2 December 1912
Talk at Home of Mr. and Mrs. Edward B. Kinney
780 West End Avenue, New York Notes by Edna McKinney

These are the days of my farewell to you, for I am sailing on the fifth of the month. Wherever I went in this country, I returned always to New York City. This is my fourth or fifth visit here, and now I am going away to the Orient. It will be difficult for me to visit this country again except it be the will of God. I must, therefore, give you my instructions and exhortations today, and these are none other than the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh.

You must manifest complete love and affection toward all mankind. Do not exalt yourselves above others, but consider all as your equals, recognizing them as the servants of one God. Know that God is compassionate toward all; therefore, love all from the depths of your hearts, prefer all religionists before yourselves, be filled with love for every race, and be kind toward the people of all nationalities. Never speak disparagingly of others, but praise without distinction. Pollute not your tongues by speaking evil of another. Recognize your enemies as friends, and consider those who wish you evil as the wishers of good. You must not see evil as evil and then compromise with your opinion, for to treat in a smooth, kindly way one whom you consider evil or an enemy is hypocrisy, and this is not worthy or allowable. You must consider your enemies as your friends, look upon your evil-wishers as your well-wishers and treat them accordingly. Act in such a way that your heart may be free from hatred. Let not your heart be offended with anyone. If some one commits an error and wrong toward you, you must instantly forgive him. Do not complain of others. Refrain from reprimanding them, and if you wish to give admonition or advice, let it be offered in such a way that it will not burden the bearer. Turn all your thoughts toward bringing joy to hearts. Beware! Beware! lest ye offend any heart. Assist the world of humanity as much as possible. Be the source of consolation to every sad one, assist every weak one, be helpful to every indigent one, care for every sick one, be the cause of glorification to every lowly one, and shelter those who are overshadowed by fear.

In brief, let each one of you be as a lamp shining forth with the light of the virtues of the world of humanity. Be trustworthy, sincere, affectionate and replete with chastity. Be illumined, be spiritual, be divine, be glorious, be quickened of God, be a Bahá'í.

('Abdu'l-Bahá, Promulgation of Universal Peace)

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:33 am

richard wrote:"In brief, let each one of you be as a lamp shining forth with the light of the virtues of the world of humanity. Be trustworthy, sincere, affectionate and replete with chastity. Be illumined, be spiritual, be divine, be glorious, be quickened of God, be a Bahá'í."

So then, my question is: Are all Baha'is expected to believe that, they, and all others, must be official members of the Baha'i Faith in order to "be as a lamp shining forth with the light of the virtues of the world of humanity; and, to be trustworthy, sincere, affectionate and replete with chastity, as well as being illumined, spiritual, divine, glorious, and quickened of God?


Richard, be a Baha'i = be a spiritual guy. The Baha'i writings say that some people, who do not know about the Baha'i Faith, are in God's eyes Baha'is by virtue of their actions. For example, who is more a Baha'i? A guy who declares as a Baha'i, but who constantly backbites and gets into fights, or someone who tries to lead a virtuous life and is kind to all, but who is not officially a Baha'i?

"Be spiritual, be divine, be glorious, be quickened of God," is what makes a Baha'i. Which religion today has the teachings that can make you "spiritual," "divine," and "glorious"? Which religion will "quicken" you? The oldest one, the medium oldest one, or the newest one, etc.? Back in the time of Jesus, do you think the Jews who rejected Christ were considered "quickened of God," "spiritual," etc.? Could they be "spiritual" knowing about Christ, but ignoring His Message? Well, they were right to reject Him and not become Christians if He was not a prophet, of course. Do you think He was a prophet, Richard? How about Baha'u'llah?

richard wrote:Or, is it possible that independent spiritual faith & investigation has discovered that the universal spiritual truths of our One and Only God of All are available to any, and all, who sincerely seek, knock on His spiritual door, ask, and thus receive His truth and leadings in their relations with Him and all others? thanks again, Brett, you're a spiritual gem... richard


But what is really "independent spiritual faith & investigation"? Is it to investigate the world religions, and not pick one? Why wouldn't you pick one? Yes, old religions are True. But newer religions are even more so. But the point is, God made religion for us. So we are not to be "independent" of religion in the name of "independent spiritual faith & investigation." If God made religion, He sure intended for us to belong to it. So which is more open-minded: Finding His most recent religion and joining, or not joining any religion in the name of "independent spiritual faith & investigation"?

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Postby FruccalFrilia » Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:50 pm

Likewise the divine religions of the holy Manifestations of God are in reality one though in name and nomenclature they differ. Man must be a lover of the light no matter from what day-spring it may appear. He must be a lover of the rose no matter in what soil it may be growing.
(Abdu'l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 15)

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:13 pm

    Verily I say, this is the Day in which mankind can behold the Face, and hear the Voice, of the Promised One. The Call of God hath been raised, and the light of His countenance hath been lifted up upon men. It behoveth every man to blot out the trace of every idle word from the tablet of his heart, and to gaze, with an open and unbiased mind, on the signs of His Revelation, the proofs of His Mission, and the tokens of His glory.

    Great indeed is this Day! The allusions made to it in all the sacred Scriptures as the Day of God attest its greatness. The soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted for this wondrous Day. All the divers kindreds of the earth have, likewise, yearned to attain it. No sooner, however, had the Day Star of His Revelation manifested itself in the heaven of God's Will, than all, except those whom the Almighty was pleased to guide, were found dumbfounded and heedless.

    O thou that hast remembered Me! The most grievous veil hath shut out the peoples of the earth from His glory, and hindered them from hearkening to His call. God grant that the light of unity may envelop the whole earth, and that the seal, "the Kingdom is God's", may be stamped upon the brow of all its peoples.


    —Baha'u'llah, Gleanings pp. 10–11

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:29 pm

brettz9 wrote:My points to BW was simply of word choice; I believe, as he stated, he did not mean to imply we should return any kind of evil for evil. But I hope we can all take a lesson from this that zeal can very easily be confused with aggression, especially among those not familiar with the Baha'i community. If others consistently respond in a certain way to our words, we really need to take a look at how we are saying something--even if in our hearts we have the best of intentions.


I completely agree with you Brett. Baha'is, such as myself, should be careful in their choice of words, especially when posting on a forum that is frequented by members of other Faiths. Baha'is certainly are not aggressive toward anyone, as we are taught to love all mankind.

brettz9 wrote:In my own experience, I might say that such situations were often due to the fact that in other areas of life I was pushing myself too hard or failing to sustain myself adequately. I don't know if this is the case at all with our friend, BW, but given that I know he takes the Faith quite admirably to heart (unlike many others who do not appreciate its bounty or take it as a light thing), I wonder whether as a student (premed at that) he is maybe pushing himself a bit too hard! I only say this out of genuine concern and with some experience with the conditions I am describing (especially before I was married). Balance is, I am still frequently rediscovering, of the utmost necessity. My apologies, BW, if this is too personal or irrelevant of a supposition.


Thanks for the kind words. I may give that impression, though I do believe in the importance of balance in one's life. One should consistently be mentally active, spiritually active, and physically active (sports are highly praised in the Writings). If one is lacking, it has a direct effect on the others—at least in my opinion.

It would seem to me that a more total balance would be finally achieved once one has completed his studies and held a job. If you are a doctor, for example, you have more freedom than when you were a student, and thus you can devote more of your time to serving the Cause—apart from the "worshiping" you do while working. I think it is harder for students, especially ones in professional schools (such as medical schools) to achieve this balance. But perhaps the balance may be achieved if one teaches himself to become more efficient in his studies, for example, and to have more "respect" for time.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:31 am

richard wrote:BW: But what is really "independent spiritual faith & investigation"? Is it to investigate the world religions, and not pick one?

Sometimes yes & sometimes no! It depends upon the investigator’s level of spiritual faith & comprehension of spiritual truth in the interpersonal, social, and personal relationships & processes of spiritual progress in their movement through the imperfections and partialities in “real” time and space. After all, the unity of all religions suggested by Argos, recognizes their hold on a part of universal truth, particularly if they see the truth that all religions should be unified spiritually more than they are divided by differing theological views!


So are you saying that if the investigator has a high "level of spiritual faith and comprehension of spiritual truth," he will realize that "all religions should be unified spiritually" and thus the only enlightened choice that he could make is to not identify himself with any creed, but rather distance himself from a any formal religious affiliation? Am I understanding you correctly? I want to know for certain where you stand on this issue; this information will help with the discussion.

richard wrote:[i]Surely we know that the spirit of the law brings life, but the letter of the law brings division and death. Are religions meant to compete with each other over membership recruitment, or cooperate in spiritual transcendence over such sectarian conflicts?


Who is "we" if I may ask? You say that the "letter of the law brings division and death," but I submit rather that the "letter of the law brings unification." Where do Laws come from? God, of course (man-made ones aside). So are you saying that God's laws bring about "division and death"? What?! An All-Knowing, All-loving God would do such a thing? I highly doubt it, as that would go contrary to the very definition of a benevolent God!

The truth is, Laws unite. However, one may contend, saying, "Look at the news today: the divided churches, the thousands of sects, the sectarian violence, etc. It is apparent that Laws only divide!" Well, there is more than one responses that could be given, but one Baha'i response would be that the old world order (whose arrangement has been thrown into disequilibrium by the advent of the Baha'i Faith we believe) is in disarray, and the old religions are a part of it. Has not the promise been made in all the world religions of an end of days, for instance when the dead shall be quickened and all shall be Judged? Has not this day come? Well, if it has, it is no surprise that only few (spiritual) eyes on Earth witnessed (recognized) it. So, is the "letter of the law" always the same, or is it evolving? The answer is, it is evolving, just as religion is evolving. Old laws and old ways are just that: old. So when God abrogates a law, but people are unaware and practice their old law, how can you say correctly that "laws divide"? For what used to be a law and unify now divides because it is ... no longer a law!

It is not an ego thing Richard. Unless you think that the previous Prophets all had ego problems by being the Founders of their Religions?

richard wrote:BW: Why wouldn't you pick one?

For one reason it would be somewhat “spiritually” elitist to presume to choose; and even if any given religion is truly better than all other religions, “spiritual” ego & pride could be one’s “real” motive. And, since all religions are a group of men’s best responses to their urge to find, know, and do the will of God, how could we choose among them in the sense of: “and the winner is______?” It’s sort of like a family with several sons and daughters who go to their father and mother and ask them to pick the one best child that the parents love best!


It is not "'spiritually' elitist to presume to choose" a religion, as I have shown above. In fact, quite the opposite. When you declare your faith, you are humbling yourself before God and His Truth; you become his full-fledged servant. You are bound by His laws, by His teachings, etc. However, when you don't pick a religion, you are not constrained by laws and thus you can do whatever you want to: drink, be promiscous, be dishonest. But when you become a member of a Faith (especially the more recent ones), your life is constrained, and you have to make certain sacrifices in the path of God. Not surprisingly this is a great inspiration for people to come up with all sorts of reasons for not joining a religion, and being "free thinkers." You have to make a lot more sacrifices when you make a contract with God. You follow His laws and teachings, and He will repay you. You don't, and you'll be subject to His justice.

richard wrote:His Perfect, Unchanged, Unchangeable, Spiritual Truth, Love, Goodness, and Wisdom has always been and always will be, It may become new to us as we hopefully ever increasingly know and understand it, but we will probably need a future in eternity to get any sort of grasp of the fullness of His Perfect Truth. Indeed, we do well to be humble in His Perfect Presence rather than flatter ourselves that we are anywhere near a full understanding. Thousands of years of men’s learning and spiritual progress are as nothing compared to the Total Eternal Perfection of our Heavenly Father’s Truth, Love, Goodness, Wisdom, and Knowledge.


You say that "we will probably need a future in eternity to get any sort of grasp of the fullness of His Perfect Truth," but do you realize that God has chosen to make Himself known to us in this life rather than just make us wait for the next (though we are much more spiritually limited in this life), and that that is the sole reason for Him "creating" religion? And further, do you realize that our knowledge of God evolves as He sends us new Messengers who bring with them their Religions, laws, and "updated" concepts, and that this is a cycle that doesn't end? Of a certainty, had it not been specifically for religion, your concept of God would have not been so advanced, or as advanced as it is. And trust me, people wouldn't have received revelations about God while doing yoga.

richard wrote:Indeed, the fact is, all men's understandings are imperfect and evolving, hopefully progressing, and we need to sort them out in terms of the best of the old and new in line with Jesus’ warning and advice given below:

Jesus proceeded to warn his hearers against entertaining the notion that all olden teaching should be replaced entirely by new doctrines. Said Jesus: "That which is old and also true must abide. Likewise, that which is new but false must be rejected. BUT THAT WHICH IS NEW AND ALSO TRUE, HAVE THE FAITH AND COURAGE TO ACCEPT.


I did not say anything that would contradict this. That statement by Jesus is in conformity with Baha'i teachings.



richard wrote:[i]Remember it is written: `Forsake not an old friend, for the new is not comparable to him. As new wine, so is a new friend; if it becomes old, you shall drink it with gladness.'"


And remember, which Religion embraces all old world religions because it sees them as a continuation of God's revelation to man? 8-)

richard wrote:And note, in some people’s minds, particularly Christian fanatics, the term Neo-Christian truth is as bad as New Age truth, or many of the other things they presume to judge and criticize in their narrow and dogmatic ways… And, it is impossible to communicate with them, for it has been rightly said that, "you cannot reason a person out of a belief they have not reasoned themselves into... richard


I know you think of what I post as being fanatical or borderline fanatical. But what I am saying I believe to be totally logical (as it is based on the Baha'i writings), and if you think I am being completely (or somewhat) illogical, please clearly state exactly what you think to be illogical or fanatical statements.

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Re: RESIST NOT EVIL, YEA, EVEN RETURN GOOD FOR EVIL

Postby Dorumerosaer » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:09 pm

"When Jesus instructed his apostles that they should, when one unjustly took away the coat, offer the other garment, he referred not so much to a literal second coat as to the idea of doing something positive to save the wrongdoer in the place of the olden advice to retaliate-"

Prior to becoming a Baha'i in 1971, I was a Catholic and an absolute pacifist and war resister, based on these teachings of Christ. There was a book of letters Leo Tolstoy wrote to Christian soldiers, urging them to abandon their weapons, based on these verses, and it had a profound effect on me.

There are verses in the Baha'i Writings that are similar in tone, and incidents in Baha'i history. For example:

"In every instance let the friends be considerate and infinitely kind. Let them never be defeated by the malice of the people, by their aggression and their hate, no matter how intense. If others hurl their darts against you, offer them milk and honey in return; if they poison your lives, sweeten their souls; if they injure you, teach them how to be comforted; if they inflict a wound upon you, be a balm to their sores; if they sting you, hold to their lips a refreshing cup." (Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 24)

However, what I have learned from the Baha'i Writings is that this divine principle is not universally applicable in all situations. In particular, it is not the right principle for governments to apply.

I learned from Baha'u'llah that if a man strikes me on the right cheek, I should turn the other cheek; but that if a nation's east coast is bombed, the president of that country cannot turn the other coast.

Mercy is to govern the conduct of individuals towards one another.
Justice is to govern the conduct of nations and institutions.

For example, if a man rapes women, and his location is discovered by the police, the police should not apply this principle of kindness. They should not call the rapist on the phone and say, "Look, let's meet for coffee and consult about this. Let's make it a win-win situation for everybody." That would be insane. Rather, the perpetrator is apprehended, by force if necessary; restrained so he can harm no one else; tried and punished.

Likewise, in matters of state, laws must be enforced, and Baha'u'llah, in the latter half of the nineteenth century, was the first to elaborate the essentials of a plan to apply the principle of law enforcement at the international scale. This would, likewise, apply the principle of justice, not forgiveness. In fact, his remedy is very harsh.

I worked for a time at the United Nations in Vienna. I saw the mis-application of an otherwise good principle: Cooperation. The word "cooperation" is used in the preamble to essentially every edict of every organ of the United Nations. That's fine, when you're talking about the allocation of telecommunications resources, or agriculture, or standardized terminology for trade. But it has no place in the Security Council, and it is one of the reasons that body is weak. Justice belongs there.

There are other instances where in our individual lives justice and not mercy should be the governing principle.

So, while the Baha'i Writings are replete with passages urging us to be kind to those who harm us; I feel that a sharp distinction should be drawn between pacifism and the Baha'i approach to law enforcement, the treatment of criminals, the guiding principles of institutions, and matters of state.

Brent

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:29 am

richard wrote:I don't think any of us should ever distance ourselves from the spiritual truths, love, and goodness of any religion. Indeed, we should embrace that in all religions and even reflect it in our beings, doings, and relationships with our God and all others... That is spiritually more important than requirements of "formal religious affilitation" that leads some, to many religions, to distance themselves from persons who are not on the membership rolls...


The same can be said for the reverse—even more so—Richard! Not having any formal religious affiliation leads many "to distance themselves from persons who" do not think like they do. Indeed, since the Baha'i Faith teaches that such actions (distancing oneself from others due to a feeling of superiority) go contrary to the purpose of religion, this is not a problem among Baha'is (generally speaking—but when I say "Baha'i" I really am referring to one who lives the Baha'i life as opposed to someone who just identifies himself with the Faith).

richard wrote:Do you think our One & Only God of All of us is a member of just the Baha'i faith, or the Catholic Church, or the Protestant Church, or any given Mosque or Synagogue?


Do you think that God eats and sleeps? No; so maybe we shouldn't eat and sleep ... even though God intended us to.

Indeed, God is exalted above anything we attribute to Him, but bringing up the topic misses the point. Those prophets who inaugurated religions weren't a "member" of the religion Themselves...so by your logic, they were making a mistake in creating a religion with the intention of having followers (and by extention, God was making a mistake since He guided Them in the first place).

richard wrote:Or is He above all persons and religions with the will that they all become spiritually united and transcend "intellectual" sectarian differences?


Again, we aren't God. See above response. [By the way, I remind you that "sectarian differences" weren't created by God—they are a man-made invention (the result of disunity). However, the Religion itself (in its pure form) was sent by God and thus is perfect. Let us not neglect this important fact.]

richard wrote:Indeed, we should not, must not, ever underestimate the Absolute Perfection of God and His Spiritual Truth, Love, and Goodness and see ourselves anywhere near His Perfect Exalted Divine Position and Status Above us all... richard


Since when is this relevant to what we have been discussing?

-Richard, I hope you can some day come to the realization that religion was given to us by God [which we of course have the free will to reject it or accept (by reject, meaning maintaining no religious affiliation)]. If you become a physicist, you are not rejecting chemistry just because you decide to specialize in the discipline. Chemistry is the foundation of all the sciences. So in choosing the most recent religion (the Baha'i Faith we believe), you are not rejecting the "spiritual truths" of the previous religions. Far from it—indeed, you are as a matter of fact accepting those "spiritual truths" more strongly since they all have laid the foundation for this Day. A religion will always have some discussion of a future time and a future prophet as you know (which means that you are told to follow the new prophet whenever He reveals Himself). When the new prophet comes, you are to turn to Him, because that is what is ordained. So in affiliating with the newer religion, you are not rejecting the old ones, but you are following God's command (His intention for us) which is known and can be found in the holy texts.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:20 am

Hi Richard,

You responded to my second-last post twice, but not the latest one.

I'll check out your new thread.

—B.W.

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real baha'is tell it like it is

Postby majnun » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:11 am

Here again my good friend Richard tries
to embark us all on a Jesus trip and to make us do useless
comparisons with the Baha'i writings.

Dear Richard, put one thing in your head, we are not
christians, we are light years away from all these older recepies.
All your distracting methods and philosophies will not convert anyone here.
Why dont you read the Baha'i writings for a change ?

MJ

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:35 pm

richard wrote:Well, Majnun, i'm sorry you don't respect Jesus as much as i respect Baha'u'llah. And, sadly, you are the first Baha'i Faith person i have ever heard denigrate Jesus. Indeed, i have been encouraged to see so many Baha'is find such great spiritual comparisons & parallels between the Baha'i teachings and the teachings of Christ, and many others.


Just wanted to interject to say that not all the users who say they are Baha'is on this board really are. Majnun has openly stated on this forum on several occasions that he doesn't believe in God, a belief which is a fundamental Baha'i principle, probably the most basic one to most of the major world religions.

That said, I don't think Majnun here is "denigrating Jesus." All he is saying is, with a new Prophet (Baha'u'llah), why spend so much time talking about the old One? Jesus Himself wouldn't want us to be referring to His old words so much now that the Promised One has arrived. Jesus got humanity ready for Baha'u'llah. Now that Baha'u'llah has come, in the spirit of Christ, we turn to Baha'u'llah for Jesus' Words (via Baha'u'llah) that are relevant for this Day. Jesus is talking to you through Baha'u'llah. What, read the old words so much that it is almost to the exclusion of the new Ones? There is a lot more Wisdom to be found in Baha'u'llah's Writings (read God's new Word).

Sure, God's truth is eternal, no bounds, etc., etc....., but Jesus' NEW Words are far superior to His two thousand year old ones. Don't believe me? Pray about it, reflect, and maybe Jesus might show you the way...so that you may shift your focus to Baha'u'llah's Writings—and I don't mean abandon the old Writings, don't get me wrong.

richard wrote:[i] Well, that's interesting, because i don't see myself as a christian so much as i see myself a follower of the best of the teachings of all manifestations of God.


Let us look at the word "follower" that you use, Richard.

Oxford American Dictionaries: Follower noun An Adherent or devotee of a particular person, cause, or activity.

Surely, being a follower and being a freethinker are two different things. Thus, are you really then "a follower of the best of the teachings of all manifestations of God"? The "best of the teachings of all manifestations of God" are those of the most recent Prophet. This isn't Baha'i talk, it's just logic. If you know that God sends Prophets with His new Word, then you will admit that the New Word is light years superior to the old, comparatively primitive ones.

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Postby Jonah » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:36 am

you are the first Baha'i Faith person i have ever heard denigrate Jesus

I don't believe that Majnun is a Baha'i, or calls himself one.

We also enforce the rule of respectfulness and civility, and "denigrating" the Manifestations on this forum would, in my view, be unacceptable. Not because They mind -- surely They're too far above this plane to care about what we think of Them -- but because we need to respect the sensibilities of the faithful on this forum.

-Jonah

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Postby Zazaban » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:24 pm

you are the first Baha'i Faith person i have ever heard denigrate Jesus
I don't believe that Majnun is a Baha'i, or calls himself one.


Actually, he does call himself a Baha'i, and claims the Baha'i faith is an atheistic religion and that the Manifestations have something to do with aliens. Nor does he believe the Báb was a manifestation.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.
~ Bahá'u'lláh

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Postby FruccalFrilia » Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:51 pm

The essence of Jesus' words and Baha'u'llah's words are the same. So there is no better one. What is different is our capacity and maturity to receive God's guidance. God out of his Mercy has chosen to Manifest himself to men. Through our guidance from Messengers like Jesus coupled with our trial and error we have accumulated experience and knowledge which allows and requires us to receive more from God. This is not to say that the Messages of the past are essentially lesser. The many Manifestations of God both old and new are an expression of God's mercy. In the past it was to reach different people at different times. All of the Messages could eventually become universal if we as humans were mature enough. Baha'u'llah's mission is to unite us into one people recognizing one Faith. The Faith of God. Accepting Baha'u'llah isn't saying that one name is superior to another name. Its recognizing a resurgence of God's mercy to wash away the earthly attachments we have covered religion with and an extension of Gods teachings for our current needs.

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:32 pm

Argos wrote:Accepting Baha'u'llah isn't saying that one name is superior to another name. Its recognizing a resurgence of God's mercy to wash away the earthly attachments we have covered religion with and an extension of Gods teachings for our current needs.


Flawlessly stated. 8-)

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Answering Johah Winters in public

Postby majnun » Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 am

Dear Jonah;

It is the first time you piss me off this directly.
And it is he first time I have the audacity write to you in public, and maybe, the last, because this little post will be deleted soon, as many are.

This bipolar judgement you made on my good person will
probably be a burden on you shoulder for the rest of your
life.

Richard is on medication, and you DO know it. Saying openly to all
that I, Majnun, Claude, Paul Sirat, is not a baha'i, will cost you you
a place of choice on the other planet, in the promised paradise.

Accusing my LUCID person of being
not a baha'i, not being a voting baha'i, not a person who participate in baha'i activities and so forth, is totally insane, and unreal. I call onto Baha'u'llah, and Abdul' Baha, and Shoghi Effendi, and Allah, and the Elohims, to bring down the just punishment on either you and I, who lies and invent.

Prepare yourself to be boarded, mister Jonah, in a way you do not
understand yet, by the justice from above. You unjustifiably accused me to not be a baha'i, in a public forum.

The UHJ will be made aware of this, think about it Jonah.
Your theatric role as an accomplice Jesus promoting device is OVER. Go on, censor this post, as you do so un-cleverly, all the time, for so many persons who do not "fit" your limited views. But you will not escape Baha'u'llah's justice my friend, whatever you do here, to censor lucid baha'is.

How can you encourage such sterile conversations, and mentally ill argument as Richard posts, knowing we baha'is are light years away from old twisted writings, don't you, Jonah put in practice the basic
principle of the valleys ?

Come on man, if there is some topics you don't catch in the baha'i writings, please write to me in private. Can you even appreciate Widor's fifth symphony ? Or Bach's Toccata und Fuge ? You may like the Céline Dion pope sucking bitch, but you don't have the right to impose her rattling voice to all.

What you did here Jonah, I think it is a bit exagerated, simply
to protect a potential member (Richard) who, for many months now, only shows is personal objections, and who does not accept, nor READ, any of our writings. Cannot you Jonah, read between the lines ?


Legal action will be taken against you soon, in Vancouver court of Justice, and In the Universal House of Justice, until you retract from accusing me of being a non-baha’I, in public, and make a public apology. This is a heavy accusation you made on my person, and I know I do not merit this.
I am a baha'i and I like it. All the baha'i persons in Montreal are now aware of the accusation you did put on my head Jonah.
I want an apology from you.

So…
Majnun

note from moderator: see my response on the next page, http://bahai-library.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3&start=26 . -J

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Postby Jonah » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:31 pm

Majnun, the only posts of yours I delete are those in which you call people names, e.g. yesterday's in which you called Richard a "nut job" (sorry, I deleted that). I don't delete anything else, other than spam. If you want proof, I guess you could keep a close eye on Google's cache of this forum to see if/when we delete something -- but I can tell you in advance it'll be a waste of time, I've only deleted one post all month.

I don't know your Baha'i status. I wrote "I don't believe that Majnun is a Baha'i, or calls himself one." If you call yourself a Baha'i, then I was half-wrong. But if you insult the Manifestations and deny God, then it seems fair for me to say "I don't believe Majnun is a Baha'i." I.e., I stated it as a guess, not a pronouncement.

I was going to lock this thread and place another suspension on your account because of the ad hominem insults, but Richard has encouraged me (in this thread, above) to be lenient and tolerant, so I won't do either. Yet. But I will continue to delete posts by anyone that consist of little or nothing more than name-calling. And if it continues, I will suspend your account whether or not others encourage tolerance.

As far as your legal or Baha'i recourses, I'll leave that up to you to pursue in private, off the forum. You have my email address.

Thanks, -Jonah

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Thanks

Postby majnun » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:57 pm

Apologies accepted.

Majnun.

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Postby Zazaban » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:27 pm

Listen Majnun. From what I can tell you seem to be following the Baha'i Faith as an atheistic UFO religion, are you not? Anyone can tell you now that the Baha'i Faith DOES NOT teach that God is an alien or anything like that. On top of that, you seem to be openly critical to figures such as Chirst and the Báb, actions which are condemned by the Baha'i Faith.

Please accept my apologies if I misread you.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:55 am

Zazaban wrote:Listen Majnun. From what I can tell you seem to be following the Baha'i Faith as an atheistic UFO religion, are you not? Anyone can tell you now that the Baha'i Faith DOES NOT teach that God is an alien or anything like that. On top of that, you seem to be openly critical to figures such as Chirst and the Báb, actions which are condemned by the Baha'i Faith.

Please accept my apologies if I misread you.


Good point Zazaban.

Majnun, you may be "officially" a Baha'i, but you openly reject God and you know the Baha'i Faith is a monotheistic religion. Jonah if anything was being too nice when he said "I don't believe that Majnun is a Baha'i, or calls himself one." Is Majnun really a Baha'i if he rejects God? Would Jonah be a Baha'i if he rejected Baha'u'llah? Is that all that there is to being a Baha'i, just being enrolled, as long as administrative rights aren't withdrawn? Or is there more to being a Baha'i? For example, adhering the the most basic of Baha'i principles (for starters)?

So when you call yourself a Baha'i on a public forum, and you reject God and talk about E.T. gods (thus degrading the Baha'i Faith into some sort of cult polytheistic alien-worshipping religion, which it is not), then there is good reason for other Baha'is to be concerned—Jonah certainly isn't the only one uneasy about that. And you should take no personal offense, since you are a smart guy and know very well what you are doing.

Your comments are sometimes witty and you do show insight at times, but unfortunately you hold beliefs that blatantly go against the principles of the Baha'i Faith (and we have a right to be concerned). And if you are allowed to post on the forum, others should be notified that your beliefs are not in conformity with those of the Baha'i Faith. I hope you can see where we are coming from.


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