Baha'i Library Forum

Off topic note from moderator:

Thanks for your interesting observations, Richard. An advance warning to all participating in this thread: we won't hesitate to lock it if it becomes inflammatory (this topic usually gets pretty heated pretty quickly).

Thanks, -Jonah

richard wrote:For those concerned about questions regarding race, and racism, i suggest the realization that not only are there differences between races, but all of us because each and every one us is uniquely different, which does not mean that any person, race, or group is seen as spiritually unequal in the eyes of our One & Only God of All of us.

Yes, each one of us is uniquely different. BUT consider this: some of us have been gifted with intelligence, but are lazy and thus our intelligence does us no good (we may even end up flipping burgers), while others of us are not gifted with superior intelligence, but because of this we have the drive and determination that our gifted counterparts lack, and that is what makes us rise above them. And finally, some of us are in-between. Therefore, it all "balances out."

Now we know that men and women differ biologically, and thus, for example, women have better types of memories than men for certain things, and vice versa. This is based on research, and there are also theories made regarding these functional observations (i.e. from an evolutionary standpoint). But even then, their genetic endowments also taken into perspective, we would say once more that for the most part everything "balances out."

Now we get to races. What possible proof do you have, Richard, that races differ intellectually? Produce it, since you seem so confident in your assertion. Using Jesus' words from an unknown source, I'm afraid, won't do it. How about finding a recent journal article that backs up your claim? Even if there was a small difference, you have to first realize that there are different types of intelligences, different parts of the brain (see above), different hormonal levels, etc., and you have to take all that into account.

A lot of people, for example, sterotype Asians as being smart, which the Asians don't like themselves. Mostly it's because that's an unfounded statement and they know it. When they come to America (second generation and so on), they get Americanized. They eat at McDonalds, make their hair purple and spiked, and watch MTV. Not only do their behaviors and attitudes begin to more closely resemble American ones, but so do their grades. This happens with any culture that loses their work ethic. Thus, work ethic, which is something that is environmental, not biological, has the greatest part to play in whether someone succeeds or not, or how "smart" he is. I don't think there are any more intellectually gifted persons in Asian countries, or wherever, than in the "white countries."

Richard said:

"BW, you misread and misinterpreted my words. There are obvious tendencies for cultural, religious, and physical differences between races, but I never said this extended to intellectual differences. My point was that all individuals, regardless of race have more differences in all respects, including intelligence, than can be explained by an individual’s race. Indeed, there is no proof that races differ intellectually; and, every race has its geniuses, as well as those of average, and below average intelligence. And further, from a spiritual perspective, you, me, and all of us would be better served if we realized that in the spiritual eyes of our One & Only God of ALL, we ALL belong to one race on this earth, and that is the Human Race."

If that's what you meant, then I agree with the above statement.

richard wrote:We are not blind to the fact that religion often acts unwisely, even irreligiously, but it acts. Aberrations of religious conviction have led to bloody persecutions, but always and ever religion does something; it is dynamic!

Richard, I used to agree with you more before you starting your campaign against organized religion. Religion, in its True and Pure form, does not act unwisely, as that would be saying that God acts unwisely, which is indeed itself an unwise assertion. Unless we are to say that religion causes each one of its members to become unerring, then we cannot assert that religion itself "acts unwisely," rather we would correctly say that its members act unwisely in deviating from the religion's intended purpose. God is Perfect; His Manifestation is Perfect; and His Religion is Perfect; it is only the lack of guidance and spirituality that causes religious adherents to err. This error is on account of their submission to their own evil passions—and not God—and absolutely not due to a religion that teaches love, brotherhood, and peace.

richard wrote:For example, for you to claim, or suggest, that the Baha'i religion and its followers are perfect, infallible, is quite problematic in terms of relating to those who know we are fallible and imperfect.

I never said that. In fact, I have stated quite the opposite.

richard wrote:Nothing below God is as Perfect as God. Everything below God the One & only Cause of All is less perfect than God. He literally has to CONDESCEND to communicate with us! We would not know Perfect if we saw it, and it is egotistical, prideful, and unrealistic to suggest we would. We all have a long, long ways to go before we can achieve the 5th or 6th levels of perfection of the 7 levels, and only God is at level 1.

God's Manifestation is as Perfect as can be (in the material realm). All the perfections and virtues of God are perfectly manifested in this material existence by the Manifestation, again perfect in the sense that the virtues of God could not have been presented any better in the constraint of the material world. Just because we are limited and thus cannot understand the absolute true nature of God, that doesn't mean that the Educators who He sends aren't the Perfect material manifestations.

richard wrote:Mark you well my words, nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible. Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity. The creature may crave infallibility, but only the Creators possess it. richard

The Word of God is infallible, and His Manifestation is infallible. His Words are the foundation of His Religion.

I only believe in one Creator, not Creators, by the way.

Don't know exactly why you quote Jesus a lot (plus without ever providing references) but do not recognize the importance of His religion that He brought to man. If God's Words are wise, and if He is wise, then Him starting a Religion (via His Messenger or Manifestation) is also wise. The religion, a stronghold against irreligion (evil), is needed just as much as the Words. The fact that old religions have broken up into sects does not mean that Jesus (God) was wrong for creating His religion, it is a reflection on the "egotistic" nature of man. The Baha'i Faith guards itself against such corruption. Nevertheless, Christianity was a Religion from God, Islam was a Religion from God, and the Baha'i Faith is a Religion from God. From God to man! Meant for man. Created for man. Necessary for man.

When speaking of Christ there really is only one Christ that is the presence of God. His Holy Presence has returned and said more, but it doesnt necessarily invalidate what was said before. In fact the old teachings are reaffirmed and "fufilled."

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil"
-Matthew 5:17 (KJV)

The religions of man fade away before the eternal faith of God.