Muslim to Bahai?

All research or scholarship questions
choogue
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Muslim to Bahai?

Postby choogue » Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:13 pm

Hi All,

Is there anyone on this forum that was initially a practicing Muslim that converted to Bahai?

I would just like to ask a few questions about Imam Mahdi. Thanks.

Regards
Abbas

Baha'i Warrior
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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:32 pm

I had a close family member who was a Muslim before becoming a Baha'i.

What did you want to know about the Mahdi?

choogue
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Postby choogue » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:02 am

Well im hoping to have direct answers from practicing Muslims turned Bahai, but what i want to know is:

1. As a Muslim (shia), they would of believed in the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) regarding the Mahdi. What made them believe the Bab was the Mahdi?

2. Since they would have initially believed in all the prophecies in relation to the Mahdi, which ones do they now deny and which ones do they believe (if any)?

3. The Bahai faith comes from Babism. The Bab claimed to be the Mahdi which is the basis of the faith so basically without the Bab, there will be no Bahai. When they were practicing Muslims, did they actually study the Bab's claim or did they directly go to the Bahai faith?

4. Many people have claimed to be the Mahdi where we now have numerous religions that claim the Mahdi has come. Before deciding that the Bab was the Mahdi, did they research other claims?

5. If the Bab didnt claim he was the Mahdi and Bahaullah started a new religion but stated that he is waiting for the Mahdi to reappear, would they be Bahai or is the basis of them being Bahai comes from the re-appearance of the Mahdi?

There are a few more questions which i cant remember right now. Again, i would like an ex-practicing Muslims views as just claiming to be a Muslim and not aware of the practices and beliefs is irrelevant.

Also, anyone else can add their say.

Regards
Abbas

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:42 pm

something you might want to read:

Chapter 81: THE WAY IN WHICH THE BELIEVERS WOULD SEE THE LORD

Chapter 81: THE WAY IN WHICH THE BELIEVERS WOULD SEE THE LORD

Book 001, Number 0349:
Abu Haraira reported: The people said to the Messenger of Allah (may
peace be upon him): Messenger of Allah, shall we see our Lord on the
Day of Resurrection? The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)
said: Do you feel any trouble in seeing the moon on the night when it
is full? They said: Messenger of Allah, no. He (the Messenger)
further said: Do you feel any trouble in seeing the sun, when there
is no cloud over it? They said: Messenger of Allah. no. He (the Holy
Prophet) said: Verily you would see Him like this (as you see the sun
and the moon). God will gather people on the Day of Resurrection and
say: Let every people follow what they worshipped. Those who
worshipped the sun would follow the sun, and those who worshipped the
moon would follow the moon, and those who worshipped the devils would
follow the devils. This Ummah (of Islam) alone would be left behind
and there would be hypocrites too amongst it. Allah would then come
to them in a form other than His own Form, recognisable to them, and
would say: I am your Lord. They would say: We take refuge with Allah
from thee. We will stay here till our Lord comes to us. and when our
Lord would come we would recognise Him. Subsequently Allah would come
to them in His own Form, recognisable to them, and say: I am your
Lord. They would say: Thou art our Lord. And they would follow Him,
and a bridge would be set over the Hell; and I (the Holy Prophet) and
my Ummah would be the first to pass over it; and none but the
messengers would speak on that day, and the prayer of the messengers
on that day would be: O Allah! grant safety, grant safety. In Hell,
there would be long spits like the thorns of Sa'dan He (the Holy
Prophet) said: Have you seen Sa'dan? They replied: Yes, Messenger of
Allah. He said: Verily those (hooks) would be like the thorns of
Sa'dan, but no one knows their size except Allah. These would seize
people for their misdeeds. Some of them would escape for their (good)
deeds, and some would be rewarded for their deeds till they get
salvation. When Allah would finish judging His bondsmen and because
of His mercy decide to take out of Hell such people as He pleases. He
would command the angels to bring out those who had not associated
anything with Allah; to whom Allah decided to show mercy. those who
would say: There is no god but Allah. They (the angels) would
recognise them in the Fire by the marks of prostration, for Hell-fire
will devour everything (limb) of the sons of Adam except the marks of
prostration. Allah has forbidden the fire to consume the marks of
prostration. They will be taken out of the Fire having been burnt,
and the water of life would be poured over them, and they will sprout
as seed does In the silt carried by flood.

Source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamental ... mt.html#00

Zazaban
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Postby Zazaban » Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:54 pm

I have split a HUGE debate between Bbas and BW into another topic. If either of you want a different name for that topic please PM me and I'll change it.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.
~ Bahá'u'lláh

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:06 pm

Abbas,

Just to let you know about the above hadith. They are from Abul Husain Muslim bin al-Hajjaj al-Nisapuri, and these hadith are very well-respected Sunni hadith, but Shi'as also believe in them.

Notice that on the Day of Ressurection, God will come down to earth, BUT in His own form, and all but the "spiritually perceptive" will fail to recognize Him:

"Allah would then come to them in a form other than His own Form, recognisable to them, and would say: I am your Lord. They would say: We take refuge with Allah from thee. We will stay here till our Lord comes to us. and when our Lord would come we would recognise Him."

It is proved that the Day of Resurrection, or Day of Judgement spoken of in the Qur'an, is not a obvious event in that everyone will instantly recognize God on that Day. Only every "spiritual eye" shall see Him. God is cloaked in the holy form of Baha'u'llah, we believe. That is, Baha'u'llah is God's Manifestation in this physical realm.

Now I am sure you are getting a sense from the hadith that the marvelous events foretold in the Qur'an need to have a spiritual interpretation applied to them, lest mankind wait forever for this "Day of Judgement." Muslims are not the only ones awaiting such miraculous end of says—so are the followers of many of the other world religions. But they love their religion so much that they begin to say that when the Promised One comes, He will merely "fix" or "add" or "subtract" a little things to/from the religion, since their religion is so great—and God forbid the old religion should be replaced by a new one!

choogue
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Postby choogue » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:07 am

Just to let you know about the above hadith. They are from Abul Husain Muslim bin al-Hajjaj al-Nisapuri, and these hadith are very well-respected Sunni hadith, but Shi'as also believe in them.

:eek:
The Shia also believe in them? Is this based on assumptions or heresay? As a Muslim Shia, i can confirm to you that NO Shia believes in "Sahih Muslim"!! So, it is totally an irrelevant Hadith.

The reason the Shia do not believe in this Sunni Hadith is because it is full of lies! Made up stories! There are so many Hadith with the Sunni, including the source you have provided, that talk of rubbish and are proven as unauthentic!

You cant just provide a source that denies the twelve Imams, which the Bahais believe, but accepts other parts which best suits you. The Sunni belief totally contradict the Bahai belief, yet whatever suits the Bahai belief, it is used as a source? If you believe all these other claims that the Sunni believe are false, how could you then claim that this would be authentic Hadith? (And i know you didnt actually say that this hadith is "authentic", but you surely imply it since you accept this)

It is proved that the Day of Resurrection, or Day of Judgement spoken of in the Qur'an, is not a obvious event in that everyone will instantly recognize God on that Day. Only every "spiritual eye" shall see Him. God is cloaked in the holy form of Baha'u'llah, we believe. That is, Baha'u'llah is God's Manifestation in this physical realm.


It is proved via the Sunni Hadith, which the Shia and the Bahai's do not accept because of their false beliefs.

Now I am sure you are getting a sense from the hadith that the marvelous events foretold in the Qur'an need to have a spiritual interpretation applied to them, lest mankind wait forever for this "Day of Judgement." Muslims are not the only ones awaiting such miraculous end of says—so are the followers of many of the other world religions. But they love their religion so much that they begin to say that when the Promised One comes, He will merely "fix" or "add" or "subtract" a little things to/from the religion, since their religion is so great—and God forbid the old religion should be replaced by a new one!


No im not getting this sense at all since the source you provided is totally irrelevant and useless.

All im seeing is picking and choosing. Either accept the whole Hadith or deny it. One cannot pick certain things that suit them and throw out what does not agree with them, otherwise anyone can claim anything and choose what best fits their claim!

Please remember I am a Shia that rejects the belief of the Sunnis, just as the Bahais reject the Sunni belief and follow the 12 Imams(a.s).

Your Shia Brother
Abbas

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:17 am

abbas wrote:All im seeing is picking and choosing. Either accept the whole Hadith or deny it. One cannot pick certain things that suit them and throw out what does not agree with them, otherwise anyone can claim anything and choose what best fits their claim!


Check out my new thread...

choogue
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Postby choogue » Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:05 am

Thought id revisit this in the chance an ex-Muslim is viewing the forum.

The questions i would like answered (if possible) are:

1. As a Muslim, you would of believed in the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) regarding the Mahdi. What made you believe the Bab was the Mahdi?

2. Since you would have initially believed in all the prophecies in relation to the Mahdi, which prophecies do you now deny and which ones do you accept(if any)?

3. The Bahai faith comes from Babism. The Bahai's believe the Bab claimed to be the Mahdi which is the basis of the faith so basically without the Bab, there will be no Bahai. When you were a practicing Muslim, did you actually study the Bab's claim or did you directly go to the Bahai faith?

4. Many people have claimed to be the Mahdi where we now have numerous religions that claim the Mahdi has come. Before deciding that the Bab was the Mahdi, did you research other claims?

5. If Babism was non-existence and Bahaullah started a new religion but stated that he is waiting for the Mahdi to reappear, would you be Bahai or is the basis of you being a Bahai is relevant to the re-appearance of the Mahdi?

Surely there should be atleast one ex-Muslim on this forum. (well hopefully)

Regards
Abbas

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:40 pm

Just one thing: I don't want to divert attention away from the question, but I wanted just to say something. There are many people who converted to the Baha'i Faith without any consideration to the Mahdi (Christians, Buddhists, etc.). There are even some Muslims who have done the same. While proofs are good, they are not enough, and they are not on the same level as the Prophet's own Words. Did Muhammad's followers insist that He show them proof that He was the promised one foretold by Jesus (they were uneducated...how could they)? Do Muslims even concern themselves with this issue, or do they take it for granted Muhammad is a Prophet because their parents were Muslims, and/or because they hear the Voice of God in the Qur'an? If one can't hear this same Voice of God in Baha'u'llah's Words, then proofs will do him no more good. This is my opinion, of course.

To play the devil's advocate, I could easily pretend to be a non-Baha'i and shoot down Baha'i proofs, and give my own reasons for why Baha'is are wrong, and for why Baha'u'llah is not a Manifestation. It is something that is not hard to get "good" at (indeed, many do it), and indeed some ex-Baha'is and Covenant breakers (there are some/have been some on the forum) actively do these sorts of things. The opposition to the Baha'i Faith is no less strong as that witnessed in the time of Muhammad, or of the other Messengers (read the stories in the Qur'an—see the ways in which men always deny God and His Manifestation), and it should come as no surprise that many people have a hard time understanding that Baha'u'llah is God's Messenger (or Manifestation) for Today.

So basically my point is, a lot has been said about proofs, but it comes down to this: does one hear the Voice of God in Baha'u'llah's Writings? Some will say yes, some will say no, and indeed, this is the biggest challenge that God has given mankind in this Day. Will they open their hearts to these new holy Words, or will they if anything hesitatingly do so, and have a skeptical frame of mind when they read His Words (and thus the Words have no effect on their hearts)? Indeed, when the Qur'an speaks of God closing the minds of the "infidels," what it really means is those same people closing their own minds, their own eyes, and hearts, to the Manifestation and His Words. That's my take on it, at least.

—BW

P.S.

I am guessing that currently there are no ex-Muslims on this forum it seems...

choogue
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Postby choogue » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:00 am

Thanks for your opinion BW.

I also doubt there are any Ex-Muslims. We'll just have to wait and see.......

Regards
Abbas

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Postby senfreern » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:50 am

i am not baha'i, nor am i a shiah muslim lol, but clearly the hadith predicts when the qa'im will come.. mathematically it predicts the exact year the Bab came..

"On the other hand, the last Imam [of Islam] disappeared in the year 260 of the Hegira [Note: 260 AH plus 1000 years equals 1260 AH or 1844 AD]; it is at that time that the prophetic manifestation is completed and that `The door of science is closed.' But Mufaddal questioned the Imam Sadiq as to the signs of the coming of the Mihdi and the Imam answered: `He will appear in the year sixty and his name will be glorified.' This means in the year 1260 which is precisely the year of the manifestation of the Bab. From: The Dawnbreakers, by Nabil

`Abdu'l-Baha, in his commentary of the Biblical Book of Revelation further explains the significance of the year 1260 AH: "And the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months" - that is to say, the Gentiles shall govern and control Jerusalem forty and two months, signifying twelve hundred and sixty days; and as each day signifies a year, by this reckoning it becomes twelve hundred and sixty years, which is the duration of the cycle of the Qur'an. For in the texts of the Holy Book, each day is a year; as it is said in the fourth chapter of Ezekiel,
verse 6: "Thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year."
This prophesies the duration of the Dispensation of Islam when Jerusalem was trodden under foot, which means that it lost its glory - but the Holy of Holies was preserved, guarded and respected - until the year 1260. This twelve hundred and sixty years is a prophecy of the manifestation of the Bab, the "Gate" of Baha'u'llah, which took place in the year 1260 of the Hejira of Muhammad [1844 of the Christian calendar]..."-`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, page 46

As the year sixty, the year that witnessed the birth of the promised Revelation, had just dawned upon the world, it would not seem inappropriate, at this juncture, to digress from our theme, and to mention certain traditions of Muhammad and of the imams of the Faith which bear specific reference to that year. Imam Ja'far, son of Muhammad, when questioned concerning the year in which the Qa'im was to be made manifest, replied as follows: "Verily, in the year sixty His Cause shall be revealed, and His name shall be noised abroad." In the works of the learned and far-famed Muhyi'd-Din-i-'Arabi, many references are to be found regarding both the year of the advent and the name of the promised Manifestation. Among them are the following: "The ministers and upholders of His Faith shall be of the people of Persia." "In His name, the name of the Guardian [Ali] precedeth that of the Prophet [Muhammad]." "The year of His Revelation is identical with half of that number which is divisible by nine [2520]." Mirza Muhammad-i-Akhbari, in his poems relating to the year of the Manifestation, makes the following prediction: "In the year Ghars [the numerical value of the letters of which is 1260] the earth shall be illumined by His light, and in Gharasih [1265] the world shall be suffused with its glory. If thou livest until the year Gharasi [1270], thou shalt witness how the nations, the rulers, the peoples, and the Faith of God shall all have been renewed." In a tradition ascribed to the Imam Ali, the Commander of the Faithful, it is likewise recorded: "In Ghars the Tree of Divine guidance shall be planted." -From: The Dawnbreakers, by Nabil, p.50


http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/#islam
http://bci.org/islam-bahai/

^i think if any shi'a muslim read that, they would be baha'i lol

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Postby choogue » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:38 am

kjf512,

kjf512 wrote:i am not baha'i, nor am i a shiah muslim lol, but clearly the hadith predicts when the qa'im will come.. mathematically it predicts the exact year the Bab came..


Which Hadith are they referring to on the site? Im assuming you are not aware of the Hadith and only relying on sources from a different religion rather than sources from the Shia Muslims.

kjf512 wrote:]http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/#islam
http://bci.org/islam-bahai/

^i think if any shi'a muslim read that, they would be baha'i lol


Well hey i guess not any of them huh? Speaking from personal experience, the site didnt strike me as relevant, nor educational. Also judging from other Shia friends who have read the site, it doesnt seem to make an impact at all. The site lacks credibility since no reference to Authentic Hadith and no attempt to provide a feeback or Question and Answer section for those who want to investigate further. The information on the site relies only on biased sources.

It doesnt help the Shia Muslims when investigating. It just makes us question more and therefore refer to the Authentic Hadith which states the opposite.

But hey, thats just an opinion from a Shia Muslim.....

Regards
Abbas

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Postby senfreern » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:33 pm

haha well the interesting thing about the hadiths, is none of them were even written until like 100 years after mohammad, if not later. if muslims thought that a specific hadith wasn't a true hadith, they would exclude it from collections and such, instead of putting it as "weak, strong" and so forth. there are 7 books that catholics use in our bible that protestants don't.. should we call those "weak Bible?" lol. but no, the protestants don't.. they just exclude it all together.

when you have books that predict the exact time of when someone would come, some even saying where they would come from, clearly it should at least be questioned.. because the chances of predicting that are one in thousands, upon millions, upon trillions.

but hey, one day i think a lot people will leave islam and become baha'i. it's just a matter of time. just look at christianity.. there was a time when christianity almost became a dead religion. there were times when just hundreds of people believed in it. but now look.. it's the biggest religion, and the fastest growing (islam is fastest growing by percentage, but by numbers doesn't even come close to christianity's growth. :))

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:39 pm

kjf512 wrote:but hey, one day i think a lot people will leave islam and become baha'i. it's just a matter of time.


Now here's a man who knows what he's talking about. 8-)

Indeed, the greater the religion, the greater (weightier) its Message—the harder for people to handle it—therefore, the slower the acceptance of that religion. Kjf512 made a very insightful remark about Christianity. It spread relatively slow, because it took a while for the spiritually blind to finally gain sight. In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus says:

    I took my stand in the midst of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty.

    But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways.


Likewise, the Koran sura after sura emphasizes the important fact that humanity always rejects God's Chosen Ones—indeed, if conformity would have been quick, there would have been no need for a Messenger. It is hard for people to give up their old ways, but they are seeing the consequences of rejecting the Baha'i Faith...look at the state the world is in! Biased maybe? Give the Baha'i Faith a chance at least! If it didn't work, they could abandon it...but they don't even give it a chance!

So humanity will also eventually "shake off their wine" and see that the Baha'i Faith is their sole refuge in a lost and degenerate world. It's Savior indeed is Baha'u'llah, Who has the only remedy that will heal the spiritual sickness of this world, the malady of disunity. Just like how a child resists eating his vegetables and spits them out, in a same way mankind reacts to the new Message. But we eventually mature (most of us), and learn that vegetables are good for us—full of vitamins and minerals—and we begin to appreciate the taste and health benefits. Of course, obesity and sickness are on the rise specifically because human beings have departed from religion and have shifted toward the hedonistic lifestyle—with a fevered perversity. And all of the world's problems are connected to irreligion. Baha'u'llah's Message will cure both spiritual and physical malnutrition, disease, and obstinacy.

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Postby Zazaban » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:13 pm

No, not just irreligion, that and blind faith in things like Wahhabism. Muhammed warned us about it himself! (See Hadith of Najd.)
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:06 am

Zazaban wrote:No, not just irreligion, that and blind faith in things like Wahhabism. Muhammed warned us about it himself! (See Hadith of Najd.)


But, can't we call blind faith "irreligion"? When one doesn't use his mind but blindly submits to doctrines that he doesn't understand, and let's his blind faith get in the way of a positive, useful existence? Is that true religion? Or even, when "religion" is used merely as a justification to serve one's corrupt passions? That is much worse than no religion in fact—doing evil in the name of God, and trying to justify it. Irreligion is "indicating lack of religion," which can take many countless forms. For example, a priest who who fervently fondles the choir boys, the jihadist who kills women and children and thinks he's doing the Will of God—you don't get more irreligious than that.

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Postby choogue » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:13 am

haha well the interesting thing about the hadiths, is none of them were even written until like 100 years after mohammad, if not later. if muslims thought that a specific hadith wasn't a true hadith, they would exclude it from collections and such, instead of putting it as "weak, strong" and so forth. there are 7 books that catholics use in our bible that protestants don't.. should we call those "weak Bible?" lol. but no, the protestants don't.. they just exclude it all together.


You talk about Hadith yet you do not understand it. Im simply explaining a fact that the website you provided lacks credibility as the information is unknown to Muslims. You made a statement that any Shia Muslim that would read the website will convert, so i decided to fill you in since you lack understanding of the Ahadith.

The bible? Please dont compare. They include the word of Man rather than excluding them!! haha

when you have books that predict the exact time of when someone would come, some even saying where they would come from, clearly it should at least be questioned.. because the chances of predicting that are one in thousands, upon millions, upon trillions.


Which books predicts what?? No Prophet has ever spoken about prediction by numbers. Your only fooling yourself if you think otherwise. But hey, let it be.

but hey, one day i think a lot people will leave islam and become baha'i. it's just a matter of time. just look at christianity.. there was a time when christianity almost became a dead religion. there were times when just hundreds of people believed in it. but now look.. it's the biggest religion, and the fastest growing (islam is fastest growing by percentage, but by numbers doesn't even come close to christianity's growth. )


I beg to differ. ;-)

Regards
Abbas


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