Why people become Bahá'í and the Madhist sects

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Baha'i Warrior
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Why people become Bahá'í and the Madhist sects

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:05 am

I think many people, be they Muslim, Christian, or whatever their religion, become Baha'is for different reasons. Some choose to become Baha'is because when they read the Words of Baha'u'llah, they hear the same Voice of God as in the Qur'an or the Bible. And sometimes it's because of proofs, and other times it's a combination. There might be other reasons as well.

As far as I know, the other religions who claim to follow the Mahdi, or the Mahdists, are not officially recognized as world religions. What I mean is, if you look at sources that take statistics from world religions, you will always see the Baha'i Faith listed, but you won't see the Mahdist religions. You also won't see Scientology and the like listed or recognized as "world religions," because they don't meet such criteria and also because they are only found in small pockets. I'm pretty sure if a religion, whose cycle bagan in 1844, made it to second most widespread religion this quickly, then I'm sure we can say that maybe there is Truth to this claim.

This is what I mean: Christianity is the most widespread world religion statistically. Islam is third. Judaism is probably fourth (I'd have to check). 1, 3, and 4 are all "authentic" religions, right? Okay, the Baha'i Faith is second. Unless it made it there by "accident" (would God really allow that?) or unless somehow through sorcery its Words possess the reader and makes him involuntarily follow the religion (many Muslims in Iran say that Baha'is put something in your tea that makes you become a Baha'i), then I think that maybe it's got something when it claims, for example, that the Bab was the Mahdi (for Muslims). ;-)

choogue
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Postby choogue » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:08 am

I think many people, be they Muslim, Christian, or whatever their religion, become Baha'is for different reasons. Some choose to become Baha'is because when they read the Words of Baha'u'llah, they hear the same Voice of God as in the Qur'an or the Bible. And sometimes it's because of proofs, and other times it's a combination. There might be other reasons as well.


Thats fine if people read Bahaullahs word and they believe in him, but im more interested in the practicing Muslims that believed in the reappearance of the Mahdi. Just reading Bahaullahs words isnt enough for me since many people believe in other so called "religions" just by reading their words. Im just hoping there is a ex-practicing Muslim on this forum to answer the above questions.

As far as I know, the other religions who claim to follow the Mahdi, or the Mahdists, are not officially recognized as world religions. What I mean is, if you look at sources that take statistics from world religions, you will always see the Baha'i Faith listed, but you won't see the Mahdist religions. You also won't see Scientology and the like listed or recognized as "world religions," because they don't meet such criteria and also because they are only found in small pockets. I'm pretty sure if a religion, whose cycle bagan in 1844, made it to second most widespread religion this quickly, then I'm sure we can say that maybe there is Truth to this claim.


Most of the "Mahdist" religions are not listed because they claim to be a sect of Islam not an independent religion. If they claimed they are an independent religion im sure the "sources" will include them. But these "mahdist" religions do not want to claim an independent religion since the Hadith state that the Mahdi will reinforce Islam.

I personally believe that just because a religion is widespread, it doesnt necessarily mean it is the Truth. There could be different factors involved in being widespread. For example, being part of the UN, ease of communication, missionaries, etc Im not saying this is the case with the Bahai faith, but then again, i havent done any research on this so i shouldnt comment. All im saying is that it is irrelevant on how widespread it is.

This is what I mean: Christianity is the most widespread world religion statistically. Islam is third. Judaism is probably fourth (I'd have to check). 1, 3, and 4 are all "authentic" religions, right? Okay, the Baha'i Faith is second. Unless it made it there by "accident" (would God really allow that?) or unless somehow through sorcery its Words possess the reader and makes him involuntarily follow the religion (many Muslims in Iran say that Baha'is put something in your tea that makes you become a Baha'i), then I think that maybe it's got something when it claims, for example, that the Bab was the Mahdi (for Muslims).


As stated above, there could be different factors involved for a religion being widespread. Im not interested in that though as it has no basis on the authenticity of a relgion. Questioning whether God will allow this is also irrelevant. There could be many arguments to this. One being that it is a test for mankind. Only God knows. Again, this is irrelevant to look at. Statistics dont mean anything otherwise everyone will be following what the majority believe and that just leads to blind faith.

Im not looking for a Muslim that read Bahaullahs writings and felt something in it. Thats not a reason to follow as there have been many people that read "religions" and start following it because they felt something. I am looking for a person who was a practicing Muslim who converted to Bahai and so i can raise these questions. If a practicing Muslim converted to Bahai, they should be able to answer these questions for me.

Regards
Abbas

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:00 am

abbas wrote:Most of the "Mahdist" religions are not listed because they claim to be a sect of Islam not an independent religion. If they claimed they are an independent religion im sure the "sources" will include them. But these "mahdist" religions do not want to claim an independent religion since the Hadith state that the Mahdi will reinforce Islam.


The hadith I've read state that, on the contrary, the Mahdi will abolish the old religion, abrogate old laws, and create His own independent Revelation.

abbas wrote:I personally believe that just because a religion is widespread, it doesnt necessarily mean it is the Truth. There could be different factors involved in being widespread. For example, being part of the UN, ease of communication, missionaries, etc Im not saying this is the case with the Bahai faith, but then again, i havent done any research on this so i shouldnt comment. All im saying is that it is irrelevant on how widespread it is.


You mean its "irrelevant" to you. Just like for Christians the whole Mahdi thing for them is irrelevant. Some people in fact think the widespread factor is very relevant, especially given the Baha'i Faith's emphasis on Oneness.

abbas wrote:As stated above, there could be different factors involved for a religion being widespread. Im not interested in that though as it has no basis on the authenticity of a relgion. Questioning whether God will allow this is also irrelevant.


No, not according to your Koran, Abbas.

From the sura "The Inevitable":

"But if Muhammad had fabricated concerning us any sayings,
We had surely seized him by the right hand,
And had cut through the vein of his neck.
Nor would We have withheld any one of you from him."

Substitute "Baha'u'llah" for Muhammad there.

abbas wrote:There could be many arguments to this. One being that it is a test for mankind. Only God knows. Again, this is irrelevant to look at. Statistics dont mean anything otherwise everyone will be following what the majority believe and that just leads to blind faith.


Yes, it's a great "test for mankind." It's to test them whether or not they can part with their old ways, which will inevitably have to come to an end.

abbas wrote:Im not looking for a Muslim that read Bahaullahs writings and felt something in it. Thats not a reason to follow as there have been many people that read "religions" and start following it because they felt something.


This argument is full of holes my friend. Just look at these Mahdist religions, they follow their religions because they take into account the hadith about a Mahdi. Maybe they should have instead placed greater emphasis on the writings and tried to feel if it was the Word of God or not. Anyone can make a claim, but his Writings are the ultimate proof. I'm not saying that proofs aren't important—they are.

abbas wrote:I am looking for a person who was a practicing Muslim who converted to Bahai and so i can raise these questions. If a practicing Muslim converted to Bahai, they should be able to answer these questions for me.


True, no argument there.

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Postby choogue » Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:42 pm

The hadith I've read state that, on the contrary, the Mahdi will abolish the old religion, abrogate old laws, and create His own independent Revelation.


:eek: Ive have never seen or heard of any Hadith like this. I remember you have mentioned "Avalim" or something like that but it appears no-one else has ever heard or seen this before. There are many Hadiths that state what the Mahdi will do once he reappears. The Hadith number over a hundred, so these "Mahdists" would rather follow the hundreds of Hadith that state the Mahdi will reinforce Islam rather than just one Hadith stating the opposite.

You mean its "irrelevant" to you. Just like for Christians the whole Mahdi thing for them is irrelevant. Some people in fact think the widespread factor is very relevant, especially given the Baha'i Faith's emphasis on Oneness.


So because the religion is widespread, it makes it relevant to follow it? Because its widespread it means its the truth? That i find totally illogical. Atheism practically affects every country, so does that mean since its widespread its the Truth? Ofcourse not. This is why it is irrelevant and not only to me but to every other person who is not a Bahai. If it is relevant then everyone would be a Bahai simply because its widespread!

No, not according to your Koran, Abbas.

From the sura "The Inevitable":

"But if Muhammad had fabricated concerning us any sayings,
We had surely seized him by the right hand,
And had cut through the vein of his neck.
Nor would We have withheld any one of you from him."

Substitute "Baha'u'llah" for Muhammad there.


Im not sure what the relevance of this is?
What does that have to do with a religion being widespread? A religion being widespread is irrelevant. If you have ONE bahai in every country but Christianity and Islam are only in 100 countries, should they all become Bahai simply because it is more widespread, that is, it has spread to more countries? Thats illogical!

Yes, it's a great "test for mankind." It's to test them whether or not they can part with their old ways, which will inevitably have to come to an end.


And what if it is to test mankind whether they have listened to the Prophet Muhammad or not? We know humans never learn, look how many "Mahdis" have appeared.

This argument is full of holes my friend. Just look at these Mahdist religions, they follow their religions because they take into account the hadith about a Mahdi. Maybe they should have instead placed greater emphasis on the writings and tried to feel if it was the Word of God or not. Anyone can make a claim, but his Writings are the ultimate proof. I'm not saying that proofs aren't important—they are.


Ofcourse they follow the religion because they take into account the Hadith. Without the Hadith, Bahai wouldnt exist. The Mahdi is only stated in the Hadith so to convert to Bahai, you must understand thewhole basis of it. Do you think these other religions dont place any emphasis on the writings? Ofcourse they would. They believe the writings are from God. So again, is that proof enough that the writings was from God? Anyone can read a piece of writing by a so called prophet and actually believe it is the word of God. It has obviously been done. What you think is the word of God will differ from what another believes. A person will read it and think how beautiful it is, while others would laugh.

The Quran is the best example. There are so many people who love it and admit that its so beautiful, however it is obviously not enough to believe in God. Further investigation of the religion is required.

So no holes here. The Mahdists do rely on their writings. The Hadith is used to initiate the claim, just as it did with the Bab. No difference.

This is why i want someone who is an ex-practicing Muslim who has investigated the claims and answer my questions. Just reading a piece of writing is simply not enough. Anyone?

Abbas

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:04 pm

abbas wrote::eek: Ive have never seen or heard of any Hadith like this. I remember you have mentioned "Avalim" or something like that but it appears no-one else has ever heard or seen this before. There are many Hadiths that state what the Mahdi will do once he reappears. The Hadith number over a hundred, so these "Mahdists" would rather follow the hundreds of Hadith that state the Mahdi will reinforce Islam rather than just one Hadith stating the opposite.


Abbas, please re-read our old discussions. Brett pointed out something important to me, that is, I was repeating myself many times when what I said (in response to what was inquired about) was already posted; you just have to go back and find it. I don't want to waste either of our times, or anyone else's.

Here's the new: True, there are more hadith talking about a reform of Islam as opposed to a new Revelation, but do the new Revelation hadith really oppose the reform hadith? Let's look at the definition of "reform":

"Reform verb [trans.] make changes in something in order to improve it." Source: Oxford American Dictionaries.

So to me, part of a "change" includes new Laws, which are in conformity with hadith. For new Laws, you need a new Book, etc. The only changes the (Shi'a) Muslims (in Iran at the time of the Bab) were less likely to have objected to would have probably been new carpets for the mosque or a specially designed rack for the shoes.

People don't like change, Abbas, that is why your hadith say that Muslims will turn against the Qa'im when He returns. No surprise though, can you think of any world religion that has ever acted otherwise (initially)?

abbas wrote:So because the religion is widespread, it makes it relevant to follow it? Because its widespread it means its the truth? That i find totally illogical. Atheism practically affects every country, so does that mean since its widespread its the Truth? Ofcourse not. This is why it is irrelevant and not only to me but to every other person who is not a Bahai. If it is relevant then everyone would be a Bahai simply because its widespread!


You find what you thought I said to be "illogical," but not what I actually said. I don't know what you think I said, but the reader has no problem understanding that what I meant was, being the second most widespread religion is a good indication that our Message might be true, given that you agree with me that the top widespread world religions are indeed "authentic" ones—and that there are no cults up there.

abbas wrote:
No, not according to your Koran, Abbas.

From the sura "The Inevitable":

Im not sure what the relevance of this is?
What does that have to do with a religion being widespread? A religion being widespread is irrelevant. If you have ONE bahai in every country but Christianity and Islam are only in 100 countries, should they all become Bahai simply because it is more widespread, that is, it has spread to more countries? Thats illogical!


Yes, that is illogical. What I said wasn't that. I needn't go on clarifying statements of mine that have just been distorted, like in the old posts (again, I'm not about to go in circles again; I say something once, and you are free to take it or leave it as it is, especially when it is not lacking in clarity). If other people think that what I said is what you say I said, then I will stand corrected, but so far apparently the only person who thinks almost every single letter I type is "illogical" is you, my friend.

abbas wrote:
Yes, it's a great "test for mankind." It's to test them whether or not they can part with their old ways, which will inevitably have to come to an end.


And what if it is to test mankind whether they have listened to the Prophet Muhammad or not? We know humans never learn, look how many "Mahdis" have appeared.


It is to test mankind, to test the Christian, the Jew, the Buddhist, and the Muslim, and even the atheist.

abbas wrote:Ofcourse they follow the religion because they take into account the Hadith. Without the Hadith, Bahai wouldnt exist. The Mahdi is only stated in the Hadith so to convert to Bahai, you must understand thewhole basis of it. Do you think these other religions dont place any emphasis on the writings? Ofcourse they would. They believe the writings are from God. So again, is that proof enough that the writings was from God? Anyone can read a piece of writing by a so called prophet and actually believe it is the word of God. It has obviously been done. What you think is the word of God will differ from what another believes. A person will read it and think how beautiful it is, while others would laugh.


Many a Christian has read the Qur'an and got a good "laugh," Abbas. Only the spiritually pure can know what is the Word of God vs. what isn't. Otherwise you are implying that because some ignorant people "laugh" at the Qur'an and don't think it's the Word of God, then perhaps it is not. You and I know that is wrong! "Truth is a single point, but the ignorant have multiplied it"!

abbas wrote:The Quran is the best example. There are so many people who love it and admit that its so beautiful, however it is obviously not enough to believe in God. Further investigation of the religion is required.


I beg to differ. When I read the holy Words of the Qur'an, I hear God speaking. Every sentence is logical, perfect, consistent (especially when the spiritual significance is extracted from verses), and from those verses, the greatest civilizations have sprung forth. If the Words and their transformative effect (to create the most advanced civilization, a super power, advances in philosophy, science, etc.) aren't proof enough, then I'll be damned (pun intended).

abbas wrote:So no holes here. The Mahdists do rely on their writings. The Hadith is used to initiate the claim, just as it did with the Bab. No difference.


Why don't you read their Writings first and see if they don't fool you?

abbas wrote:This is why i want someone who is an ex-practicing Muslim who has investigated the claims and answer my questions. Just reading a piece of writing is simply not enough. Anyone?


If the Voice of God isn't enough, then nothing is.

Yes, proofs are important, but not for everyone. Does an atheist care if Baha'u'llah satisfies the criteria for the savior foretold by Zarathustra?

choogue
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Postby choogue » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:15 am

Abbas, please re-read our old discussions. Brett pointed out something important to me, that is, I was repeating myself many times when what I said (in response to what was inquired about) was already posted; you just have to go back and find it. I don't want to waste either of our times, or anyone else's.


Yes you are repeating yourself many times just as i am. I wanted to know which Hadith say this and i stated that the "Avalim" you had previously presented is not heard of by any Muslims. So your responses have not answered my questions since to the knowledge of all the Muslims i have asked and the research i have made, this hadith is non-existence, except with the Bahais. This is where we left off in the other posts. So as a Muslim, presenting to me Hadith that is not authentic is useless.

We are going around in circles because even referring to the previous posts, the subject on the "Avalim" was not concluded due to the fact the only source where it is available was in Bahai websites.

Here's the new: True, there are more hadith talking about a reform of Islam as opposed to a new Revelation, but do the new Revelation hadith really oppose the reform hadith? Let's look at the definition of "reform":


Which Hadith talk about reform? The Hadith state that the Mahdi will "reinforce" Islam, not reform.

Yes, people do not like change. But there is nothing to indicate that Islam will change. Muslims will turn against the Mahdi, and ofcourse these will be specifically the Muslims who do not follow the Ahlul Bayt. So i agree, people do not like change. Im sure the Muslims who do not follow the AhlulBayt will despise this change.

You find what you thought I said to be "illogical," but not what I actually said. I don't know what you think I said, but the reader has no problem understanding that what I meant was, being the second most widespread religion is a good indication that our Message might be true, given that you agree with me that the top widespread world religions are indeed "authentic" ones—and that there are no cults up there.


BW, i stated that just because a religion is widespread, it does not mean its the Truth. Its irrelevant. You then stated it is irrelevant only to me. What does that imply? You are stating therefore it is relevant that because its widespread its the Truth.

Now that you mention that it is a good indication that it might be true, i still cannot see the logic in that. A religon being widespread is not an indication that it might be true. Atheism is everywhere. Does that mean its an indication that is might be true?

Yes, that is illogical. What I said wasn't that. I needn't go on clarifying statements of mine that have just been distorted, like in the old posts (again, I'm not about to go in circles again; I say something once, and you are free to take it or leave it as it is, especially when it is not lacking in clarity). If other people think that what I said is what you say I said, then I will stand corrected, but so far apparently the only person who thinks almost every single letter I type is "illogical" is you, my friend.


Thats right it wasnt that. You clarifed it above. Your stating that it is a indication that it might be true.

BW, i did not distort anything and you know that. You simply did not explain yourself until now. No other post have i distorted anything. You are simply making claims without supporting evidence. Referring to the previous points, i see no distortion. Just because I do not agree with your statements, does not mean that i am distorting them.

So it seems that i am the only person thats not understanding your responses? So when i say to you:
I personally believe that just because a religion is widespread, it doesnt necessarily mean it is the Truth. There could be different factors involved in being widespread
..............
im saying is that it is irrelevant on how widespread it is.
and your response is:
You mean its "irrelevant" to you.
I should take this as though you were implying it is an indication? You could have easily cleared it right there and then by stating that you were implying it is an indication, but you accuse me of distorting your responses. Maybe you should re-read the posts before you jump to such an accusation.

It is to test mankind, to test the Christian, the Jew, the Buddhist, and the Muslim, and even the atheist.


So it is not possible that it is to test Mankind not to follow false prophets?We can take this both ways: To test Mankind to see if they can part from their old ways(with multiple Mahdis) and to test Mankind to obey the Prophet and determine which Mahdi is true based on the teachings of the Prophet.
There have been so many "Mahdis", which the Prophet warned us of, so we need to determine which of the Mahdis, if any, is the correct Mahdi.

Many a Christian has read the Qur'an and got a good "laugh," Abbas. Only the spiritually pure can know what is the Word of God vs. what isn't. Otherwise you are implying that because some ignorant people "laugh" at the Qur'an and don't think it's the Word of God, then perhaps it is not. You and I know that is wrong! "Truth is a single point, but the ignorant have multiplied it"!


I know there are many Chrisitians that have read the Quran and got a laugh. Im not denying that. I just dont think that reading the word of God is enough to decide whether a religion is true or not. There are many spiritually pure individuals that are Muslim but do not see that Bahai is the word of God. Does that mean its false?

I beg to differ. When I read the holy Words of the Qur'an, I hear God speaking. Every sentence is logical, perfect, consistent (especially when the spiritual significance is extracted from verses), and from those verses, the greatest civilizations have sprung forth. If the Words and their transformative effect (to create the most advanced civilization, a super power, advances in philosophy, science, etc.) aren't proof enough, then I'll be damned (pun intended).


Yes, you and i hear God speaking, but it is not enough for people who love the literature and still dont believe it is from God. If they investigate the Quran further and realise that is has scientific evidence, etc, then yes that may be enough. At the end, further investigation is required.

Why don't you read their Writings first and see if they don't fool you?


Why would it be fooling? If the people are following those Mahdis, doesnt it mean they believe their writings are from God? If we read them and deny them, they would tell us that your not spiritual enough. Words can hypnotise people whether they are really from God or not, therefore words are not enough.

If the Voice of God isn't enough, then nothing is


What makes it the voice of God? As stated, other "fake" scriptures claim to be the word of God and there followers claim to read the writings and you will see that it is the word of God. Obviously this is not enough.

Yes, proofs are important, but not for everyone. Does an atheist care if Baha'u'llah satisfies the criteria for the savior foretold by Zarathustra?


Proofs will differ for different people. For a Muslim, proof of the Mahdi's
rappearance is needed to believe the Bab was the Mahdi. Obviously for an atheist, proof of the existence of God is needed before any religion is accepted.

I just want to clarify what your saying (incase you accuse me of distorting your words). If you have two Muslims and one decides to follow the Bahai faith and the other decides to follow another faith that claimed the Mahdi has returned, is reading the writings enough to verify the claims or would referring to what the Prophet has prophesiced about the Mahdi is needed?

Although this post has swayed off the topic, i would still like to hear from a Muslim turned Bahai. Thanks.

Regards
Abbas

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Postby choogue » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:02 am

Just to remind everyone what this post is about, im including the questions raised that i would like answered from an ex-practicing Muslim.

1. As a Muslim (shia), they would of believed in the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) regarding the Mahdi. What made them believe the Bab was the Mahdi?

2. Since they would have initially believed in all the prophecies in relation to the Mahdi, which ones do they now deny and which ones do they believe (if any)?

3. The Bahai faith comes from Babism. The Bab claimed to be the Mahdi which is the basis of the faith so basically without the Bab, there will be no Bahai. When they were practicing Muslims, did they actually study the Bab's claim or did they directly go to the Bahai faith?

4. Many people have claimed to be the Mahdi where we now have numerous religions that claim the Mahdi has come. Before deciding that the Bab was the Mahdi, did they research other claims?

5. If the Bab didnt claim he was the Mahdi and Bahaullah started a new religion but stated that he is waiting for the Mahdi to reappear, would they be Bahai or is the basis of them being Bahai comes from the re-appearance of the Mahdi?

I hope there is an ex-muslim on this forum!

Regards
Abbas

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b

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:41 am

abbas wrote:Yes you are repeating yourself many times just as i am. I wanted to know which Hadith say this and i stated that the "Avalim" you had previously presented is not heard of by any Muslims. So your responses have not answered my questions since to the knowledge of all the Muslims i have asked and the research i have made, this hadith is non-existence, except with the Bahais. This is where we left off in the other posts. So as a Muslim, presenting to me Hadith that is not authentic is useless.


Abbas,

You have to do some research yourself. Go to the library. Sorry, you have to understand that I don't have time to look it up for you. If you think without even researching (asking your buddies is not researching) that Baha'u'llah is making up this hadith, then I am sorry you think that. If this is so important to you, then why don't you take out a week of your time and go research it. None of your Muslims friends will know about it. I hate to say it, but they are hardly authoraties on the Koran itself, much less something comparitively obscure like the Avalim. You can even go to someone who knows Arabic if you even want. It is not easy work finding Truth.

abbas wrote:We are going around in circles because even referring to the previous posts, the subject on the "Avalim" was not concluded due to the fact the only source where it is available was in Bahai websites.


Again, go and find the Avalim. I am not trying to turn you into a Baha'i, but if you yourself are really interested and if that's important for you, then by all means look it up.

abbas wrote:Which Hadith talk about reform? The Hadith state that the Mahdi will "reinforce" Islam, not reform.


It's both. And I have shown you hadith saying that He will bring new laws, and have His own Revelation. Read the Iqan!!!!!!! Then let's talk. :smile:

abbas wrote:Yes, people do not like change. But there is nothing to indicate that Islam will change. Muslims will turn against the Mahdi, and ofcourse these will be specifically the Muslims who do not follow the Ahlul Bayt. So i agree, people do not like change. Im sure the Muslims who do not follow the AhlulBayt will despise this change.


The change has already happened, and it has been despised. The second largest religion in Iran, the land of the Faith's birth, is the Baha'i Faith. I have relayed to you the statistics. Do you see how at the beginning of Islam and after it it was such a great religion and was the cause of advance? Do you see that anymore with Islam? I see the evidences of the glory of the Baha'i Faith, glory no one sees in other religions—in practice or in the news. Just look at the characters of the Baha'is individually. They don't have any laws where it is "Baha'i" and glorious to lie to and cheat non-Baha'is for the "good" of the Faith like in Islam. The Baha'i Faith creates a culture of honesty and nobility such as witnessed in the past at the Dawn of every new Age. The noble character created in the Baha'is as a whole is a proof of the validity of their religion; the abasement and confusion seen in the other religions today is proof that their time has run out, and that God has new Plans. Call it crazy, or insight.

abbas wrote:Now that you mention that it is a good indication that it might be true, i still cannot see the logic in that. A religon being widespread is not an indication that it might be true. Atheism is everywhere. Does that mean its an indication that is might be true?


Abbas, I am talking about religion. Today, religion is on the brink of death because many of its "adherents" are engaging in what even the atheists aren't. In fact, in many ways the atheists are more noble than many "adherents" today.

My point was if a Message is true, it will apply to everyone and unite. (We all know mankind is lost in its perverse passions, and that was the condition of religion every time God sent a new One.) If the teachings of some cult is so culture-specific for example, then it will only remain in some small pockets and at best maintain its numbers for some time. But didn't Islam spread all over the world? Didn't Christianity? These are the newer religions. Now that finally the whole world is so interconnected, it is possible to unite everyone in one religion. If it's possible, then it will probably happen.

abbas wrote:BW, i did not distort anything and you know that. You simply did not explain yourself until now. No other post have i distorted anything. You are simply making claims without supporting evidence. Referring to the previous points, i see no distortion. Just because I do not agree with your statements, does not mean that i am distorting them.


I never said that. But I don't want to argue. Anyone following the discussion can plainly see if you were distoring or not. Maybe I'm wrong, a man can always admit he's wrong. I don't think we need to continue on this, for example me going back and quoting myself, etc.

abbas wrote:So it seems that i am the only person thats not understanding your responses? So when i say to you:
I personally believe that just because a religion is widespread, it doesnt necessarily mean it is the Truth. There could be different factors involved in being widespread
..............
im saying is that it is irrelevant on how widespread it is.
and your response is:
You mean its "irrelevant" to you.
I should take this as though you were implying it is an indication? You could have easily cleared it right there and then by stating that you were implying it is an indication, but you accuse me of distorting your responses. Maybe you should re-read the posts before you jump to such an accusation.


Again, I don't want to go there. You yourself have accused me in the past of distorting what you say, or saying things to "suit my own fancy," or something to that effect. We aren't children though, let's be men.

abbas wrote:So it is not possible that it is to test Mankind not to follow false prophets?We can take this both ways: To test Mankind to see if they can part from their old ways(with multiple Mahdis) and to test Mankind to obey the Prophet and determine which Mahdi is true based on the teachings of the Prophet.


I'm not telling you what to do Abbas. If you don't think the Bab is the Mahdi, that's fine. God can do many things, and has done many things, and has given many tests...many different ways.

abbas wrote:There have been so many "Mahdis", which the Prophet warned us of, so we need to determine which of the Mahdis, if any, is the correct Mahdi.


There are also many schizos who think they're the return of Christ. By their fruits, or lack of, you shall now them, Abbas.

abbas wrote:I know there are many Chrisitians that have read the Quran and got a laugh. Im not denying that. I just dont think that reading the word of God is enough to decide whether a religion is true or not. There are many spiritually pure individuals that are Muslim but do not see that Bahai is the word of God. Does that mean its false?


"There are many spiritually pure individuals that are Muslim but do not see that Bahai is the word of God"? Well, how would they be "spiritually pure individuals," for the sake of argument, if the Baha'i Faith was what it claims to be? Or maybe we should say there were many spiritually pure Jews during the time of Christ who did not recognize His Words. Is that really pure, or just the opposite?

abbas wrote:Yes, you and i hear God speaking, but it is not enough for people who love the literature and still dont believe it is from God. If they investigate the Quran further and realise that is has scientific evidence, etc, then yes that may be enough. At the end, further investigation is required.


The greatest miracle of God is His Word. I can't see how it could be any more obvious, other than God literally sending a Qa'im to kill a lot of people with the blood rising up your legs...which God never does...and which is impossible...and which misses the point completely, according to the Koran, the Baha'i Writings, and religious common sense in general.

abbas wrote:Why would it be fooling? If the people are following those Mahdis, doesnt it mean they believe their writings are from God? If we read them and deny them, they would tell us that your not spiritual enough. Words can hypnotise people, therefore words are not enough.


Did you know Abbas, some people truly cannot be hypnotized? ;-)

abbas wrote:What makes it the voice of God? As stated, other "fake" scriptures claim to be the word of God and there followers claim to read the writings and you will see that it is the word of God. Obviously this is not enough.


It's not enough for those who are easily swayed and who cannot see with the spiritual eyes God has given them. If I give you ten colors and ask you to pick out red, it shouldn't be too difficult.

abbas wrote:Proofs will differ for different people. For a Muslim, proof of the Mahdi's rappearance is needed to believe the Bab was the Mahdi. Obviously for an atheist, proof of the existence of God is needed before any religion is accepted.


Yes, but after he has accepted God, he doesn't care at all about the Mihdi necessarily before he declares. There are Baha'is who used to be Christians and don't even know what "Mihdi" or "Qa'im" is.

abbas wrote:I just want to clarify what your saying (incase you accuse me of distorting your words). If you have two Muslims and one decides to follow the Bahai faith and the other decides to follow another faith that claimed the Mahdi has returned, is reading the writings enough to verify the claims or would referring to what the Prophet has prophesiced about the Mahdi is needed?


If I show you a Gatorade and a Mountain Dew, and ask you to pick out the Mountain Dew, I'd expect you could read the label and figure out which is the Mountain Dew correctly—of course unless you would happen to be illiterate.

choogue
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Postby choogue » Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:01 am

You have to do some research yourself. Go to the library. Sorry, you have to understand that I don't have time to look it up for you. If you think without even researching (asking your buddies is not researching) that Baha'u'llah is making up this hadith, then I am sorry you think that. If this is so important to you, then why don't you take out a week of your time and go research it. None of your Muslims friends will know about it. I hate to say it, but they are hardly authoraties on the Koran itself, much less something comparitively obscure like the Avalim. You can even go to someone who knows Arabic if you even want. It is not easy work finding Truth.


This is what im telling you. I have done my research and not only through friends. I have made every attempt possible yet no luck. I have spoken to numerous people who actually speak Arabic and fluent in Islam yet they still have not heard about this.

The only place where i find this is on the Bahai sites, which i find very odd since you mentioned this is a well known Shia Hadith in your other posts.

It's both. And I have shown you hadith saying that He will bring new laws, and have His own Revelation. Read the Iqan!!!!!!! Then let's talk


No, the numerous Hadith that i have referred to do not mention a reform. It mentions that the Imam Mahdi will reinforce the laws of Islam.

As explained, the Hadith you have referred to appears to be non-existent therefore you have not shown me anything authentic from the Hadith.

I have completed the Iqan already. :smile:

The change has already happened, and it has been despised. The second largest religion in Iran, the land of the Faith's birth, is the Baha'i Faith. I have relayed to you the statistics.


Yes, the statistics are that Bahais are less than 2% of the populaton in the land of its birth. A combination of Christianity, Zoroastrian, Jewish and Bahai actually make up this 2%.

Do you see how at the beginning of Islam and after it it was such a great religion and was the cause of advance? Do you see that anymore with Islam?


What? Ofcourse we do. Even after the September 11 attacks, more people have converted to Islam. People are actually stating that since Islam is a "News" topic lately, more and more people want to find out what its about which is why Islams numbers are increasing. Now, unlike before, everyone you will speak to knows of Islam, even though the media portray it in a negative aspect, it is a gift. Muslims are now using this to actually educate the ignorant people about what Islam really is. Not what the Media portray it as.

I see the evidences of the glory of the Baha'i Faith, glory no one sees in other religions—in practice or in the news. Just look at the characters of the Baha'is individually.


It is hardly known. I personally have never heard of it until i met my girlfriend. Anyone that i have asked about Bahai look at me with confusion. Everytime my girlfriend and i meet new people and she tells them they are Bahai, they tell us they never heard of it. Even when Hezbollah's rockets landed in the Bahai gardens, so many people didnt know what Bahai is. They were under the impression it had something to do with Israel. Till this day, i have not met one person that knows Bahai. Im not trying to sound negative, i just found it odd when your mentioning that you see the evidence of the glory of the faith.

don't have any laws where it is "Baha'i" and glorious to lie to and cheat non-Baha'is for the "good" of the Faith like in Islam.


Im confused about this sentance. Where does Islam lie and cheat non-muslims for the good of the faith??? :-?

Baha'i Faith creates a culture of honesty and nobility such as witnessed in the past at the Dawn of every new Age. The noble character created in the Baha'is as a whole is a proof of the validity of their religion; the abasement and confusion seen in the other religions today is proof that their time has run out, and that God has new Plans. Call it crazy, or insight.


So does every other religion. Im not aware of a religion that still does not create honesty and nobility. It's all got to do with the individual. My girlfriend always tells me stories which occur in there community. Its no different to any other type of community.

I dont see any confusion in Islam. I know you will bring up the sect issue however we have already discussed this and whether or not you accept other sects exist in Bahai, they are still there.

Abbas, I am talking about religion. Today, religion is on the brink of death because many of its "adherents" are engaging in what even the atheists aren't. In fact, in many ways the atheists are more noble than many "adherents" today.


Religion on the brink of death may be your own opinion however i am seeing the total opposite. Even my atheist friend is moving towards religion. Religion is starting to play a big part in society.

My point was if a Message is true, it will apply to everyone and unite. (We all know mankind is lost in its perverse passions, and that was the condition of religion every time God sent a new One.) If the teachings of some cult is so culture-specific for example, then it will only remain in some small pockets and at best maintain its numbers for some time. But didn't Islam spread all over the world? Didn't Christianity? These are the newer religions. Now that finally the whole world is so interconnected, it is possible to unite everyone in one religion. If it's possible, then it will probably happen.


All religions are about unity. 8-)

I never said that. But I don't want to argue. Anyone following the discussion can plainly see if you were distoring or not. Maybe I'm wrong, a man can always admit he's wrong. I don't think we need to continue on this, for example me going back and quoting myself, etc.


We'll leave it at that. :smile:

I'm not telling you what to do Abbas. If you don't think the Bab is the Mahdi, that's fine. God can do many things, and has done many things, and has given many tests...many different ways.


No argument here....

There are also many schizos who think they're the return of Christ. By their fruits, or lack of, you shall now them, Abbas.


Correct. Many of them believe they are return of Christ, the Mahdi, or all in one package..... :roll:

"There are many spiritually pure individuals that are Muslim but do not see that Bahai is the word of God"? Well, how would they be "spiritually pure individuals," for the sake of argument, if the Baha'i Faith was what it claims to be? Or maybe we should say there were many spiritually pure Jews during the time of Christ who did not recognize His Words. Is that really pure, or just the opposite?


But that just it. By claiming that you have to be spiritually pure to determine whether the Bahai faith (or any other) is the Truth, means that every person who is not part of that faith is NOT spiritually pure. This is why i state that there is much more to that.

The greatest miracle of God is His Word. I can't see how it could be any more obvious, other than God literally sending a Qa'im to kill a lot of people with the blood rising up your legs...which God never does...and which is impossible...and which misses the point completely, according to the Koran, the Baha'i Writings, and religious common sense in general.


Yes, the greatest Miracle of God is His Word. But there is more to it for someone to see the Truth as the argument would be that anyone can write a book and have someone follow it (which has happened numerous times). Lets say, for argument sake, that the Mahdi and Jesus appear tomorrow and all the prophecies of the Mahdi and Jesus come true and there is no doubt whatsoever that they are who they claim to be. People who believed the Mahdi and Jesus already came will drop what they had, even though they were "spiritually pure".

All im trying to say is that people need more than someone saying to them " just read it and you will see its the word of God". All religions say this no matter if they are the Truth or false. There is more to it than that. For someone who already believes in the faith can easily see its the word of God, EVEN if it is not.

Did you know Abbas, some people truly cannot be hypnotized?


Yep. Maybe we both are unable to be hypnotised and therefore we cannot see that scientology was the way to go. ;)

It's not enough for those who are easily swayed and who cannot see with the spiritual eyes God has given them. If I give you ten colors and ask you to pick out red, it shouldn't be too difficult.


But you are giving me ten colours and telling me to pick something that it literally visible to me. Religion on the other hand is not literally visible. Like you say, it is seen with the "spiritual" eyes. However, im sure the "spiritual" eyes can decieve. Just as how others have been decieved.

Yes, but after he has accepted God, he doesn't care at all about the Mihdi necessarily before he declares. There are Baha'is who used to be Christians and don't even know what "Mihdi" or "Qa'im" is.


Thats pretty bad. They should be aware of where the concept of the Mahdi has come from and learn the actual history of it. Its like Muslims believing in Islam but dont know anything about the other Imams and just wait for the Imam Mahdi.

I know what you mean though. My gf introduced me to a Bahai that was an ex-muslim. When i asked him about why did he leave Islam, he didnt mention anything that was related to the beliefs. He wasnt aware that the Bahai faith claim that the Mahdi has come. He didnt know really anything about Islam. My gf believes that he really converted because he met his current wife who is a Bahai.

This is why im so interested to meet a Muslim who actually converted to Bahai for the right reasons so they can answer my questions.

If I show you a Gatorade and a Mountain Dew, and ask you to pick out the Mountain Dew, I'd expect you could read the label and figure out which is the Mountain Dew correctly—of course unless you would happen to be illiterate


But it would be more acceptable to say that neither drinks had any labels on them and one has not tasted them before. Then you can ask me which one is the Mountain Dew. I would go with my gut feeling. Otherwise i would ask you to place the labels which are basically equivalent to the prophecies. It would make it much easier. My gut feeling is really another way of saying it was a guess. ;)

Regards
Abbas

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:36 pm

abbas wrote:This is what im telling you. I have done my research and not only through friends. I have made every attempt possible yet no luck. I have spoken to numerous people who actually speak Arabic and fluent in Islam yet they still have not heard about this.

The only place where i find this is on the Bahai sites, which i find very odd since you mentioned this is a well known Shia Hadith in your other posts.


It is going to be difficult to find no doubt, Abbas. Anyway, you have to find the Avalim yourself. You can't say or imply that Baha'u'llah was making it up when you can't even locate the Avalim. And heresay bears no weight—you should know that. I could locate it myself, but I do not have the time to do so. Maybe you might want to find other hadith saying the same thing. Go to the Kitab-i-Iqan and find another hadith to go after. Or whatever. It is your spiritual journey, not mine. So let's not beat a dead horse my friend...we can leave it at that.

abbas wrote:As explained, the Hadith you have referred to appears to be non-existent therefore you have not shown me anything authentic from the Hadith.


Again, if I had the time or inclination to disprove that, I would.

abbas wrote:Yes, the statistics are that Bahais are less than 2% of the populaton in the land of its birth. A combination of Christianity, Zoroastrian, Jewish and Bahai actually make up this 2%.


There are many factors why the Faith is suppressed there. They are, for example, not allowed to attend college (until recently a few might have been), they are arrested for no reason (sometimes still killed and tortured in prison), and in all areas of life are disadvantaged because of many of the Muslims and the Islamic government. A lot of Baha'is have escaped and live in many parts of the world, like Germany, Australia, and the United States. Whenever the Islamic government of Iran is dissolved, the Baha'i Faith will, God willing, spread at an even quicker rate.

abbas wrote:
Do you see how at the beginning of Islam and after it it was such a great religion and was the cause of advance? Do you see that anymore with Islam?


What? Ofcourse we do. Even after the September 11 attacks, more people have converted to Islam. People are actually stating that since Islam is a "News" topic lately, more and more people want to find out what its about which is why Islams numbers are increasing. Now, unlike before, everyone you will speak to knows of Islam, even though the media portray it in a negative aspect, it is a gift. Muslims are now using this to actually educate the ignorant people about what Islam really is. Not what the Media portray it as.


And at the same rate (or probably even greater) the new generation is rejecting Islam, like the majority of the youth in Iran. Most of the young people are partying, drinking, and not being Muslim in general (although many Muslims themselves do engage in these activities). Muslims in large numbers across the globe are unfortunately giving Islam a bad image. So we'll see how things turn out, Abbas. I don't see Islam as growing at a quicker rate (because of the publicity, and other things), I actually see the opposite. Only God knows...

abbas wrote:It is hardly known. I personally have never heard of it until i met my girlfriend. Anyone that i have asked about Bahai look at me with confusion. Everytime my girlfriend and i meet new people and she tells them they are Bahai, they tell us they never heard of it. Even when Hezbollah's rockets landed in the Bahai gardens, so many people didnt know what Bahai is. They were under the impression it had something to do with Israel. Till this day, i have not met one person that knows Bahai. Im not trying to sound negative, i just found it odd when your mentioning that you see the evidence of the glory of the faith.


I wasn't talking about how well known it is. I was talking about how the Baha'i Faith transforms generally all its members into virtuous, noble souls, especially compared to others. I don't see significant numbers of Baha'is (or even 1 single person at that!) blowing cars up, jihading women and children, and destroying civilization.

abbas wrote:Im confused about this sentance. Where does Islam lie and cheat non-muslims for the good of the faith??? :-?


Everywhere. Take Iran. Just talk to anyone who lived in Tehran, he will tell you how bad the dishonesty is in the city and that it almost makes it impossible to live there. How much more so is the case with how they treat "najas" Baha'is. It is a noble thing in Islam to lie and cheat these "inferior," "najas" "infidels."

abbas wrote:So does every other religion. Im not aware of a religion that still does not create honesty and nobility. It's all got to do with the individual. My girlfriend always tells me stories which occur in there community. Its no different to any other type of community.


Are Baha'is cutting off heads and blowing up cars and screaming "God is great"? Not even one Baha'i!

abbas wrote:I dont see any confusion in Islam. I know you will bring up the sect issue however we have already discussed this and whether or not you accept other sects exist in Bahai, they are still there.


They don't even have unity within sects!

Yes, people who have been kicked out of the Baha'i A.O. have went on to form their own group. But you tell Britannica that they are wrong for not including those cults in their statistics. ;-) We don't think they are Baha'is, and Britannica doesn't think they are, nor any other agency that takes official statistics of world religions. Don't worry about it, my friend...they are not significant to anyone.

abbas wrote:All religions are about unity. 8-)


The Baha'is Faith is about unity...none of them terrorize others. What is it in Islam that can even cause one person to do these things? Can you even tell me one Baha'i who can become to wild, violent, and destructive, to the point of killing others in the name of religion? Note that I am not saying all Muslims are like this, but the fact that a good number of them are raises the issue of whether or not their religion unifies anymore.

abbas wrote:But you are giving me ten colours and telling me to pick something that it literally visible to me. Religion on the other hand is not literally visible. Like you say, it is seen with the "spiritual" eyes. However, im sure the "spiritual" eyes can decieve. Just as how others have been decieved.


Spiritual eyes can deceive when there is thick smog surrounding them or when they are totally blind.

abbas wrote:I know what you mean though. My gf introduced me to a Bahai that was an ex-muslim. When i asked him about why did he leave Islam, he didnt mention anything that was related to the beliefs. He wasnt aware that the Bahai faith claim that the Mahdi has come. He didnt know really anything about Islam. My gf believes that he really converted because he met his current wife who is a Bahai.


The Baha'is aren't all perfect knowledge-wise regarding religions. This is a goal that hopefully many are striving for, especially considering our teachings on the importance of knowing about other religions.

abbas wrote:This is why im so interested to meet a Muslim who actually converted to Bahai for the right reasons so they can answer my questions.


Be careful, what you may think are "the right reasons" may not actually be. You have to have an open mind.


abbas wrote:
If I show you a Gatorade and a Mountain Dew, and ask you to pick out the Mountain Dew, I'd expect you could read the label and figure out which is the Mountain Dew correctly—of course unless you would happen to be illiterate


But it would be more acceptable to say that neither drinks had any labels on them and one has not tasted them before. Then you can ask me which one is the Mountain Dew. I would go with my gut feeling. Otherwise i would ask you to place the labels which are basically equivalent to the prophecies. It would make it much easier. My gut feeling is really another way of saying it was a guess. ;)


Even if the labels are detached, the bottles look distinctly different ;-) (By the way, this problem assumes that one has been around Gatorade and Mountain Dew bottles and is of average IQ.)

Good luck on the spiritual journey if you are on one Abbas. It is commended that you are trying to be a loyal Muslim, doing what you perceive to be right. I myself, being a Baha'i, at once feel like a loyal Muslim, a loyal Christian, a loyal Buddhist, etc.

choogue
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Postby choogue » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:43 am

It is going to be difficult to find no doubt, Abbas. Anyway, you have to find the Avalim yourself. You can't say or imply that Baha'u'llah was making it up when you can't even locate the Avalim. And heresay bears no weight—you should know that. I could locate it myself, but I do not have the time to do so. Maybe you might want to find other hadith saying the same thing. Go to the Kitab-i-Iqan and find another hadith to go after. Or whatever. It is your spiritual journey, not mine. So let's not beat a dead horse my friend...we can leave it at that.


But it gives an indication that it may be made up since it cannot be found anywhere except through Bahai sources.....

There are many factors why the Faith is suppressed there. They are, for example, not allowed to attend college (until recently a few might have been), they are arrested for no reason (sometimes still killed and tortured in prison), and in all areas of life are disadvantaged because of many of the Muslims and the Islamic government. A lot of Baha'is have escaped and live in many parts of the world, like Germany, Australia, and the United States. Whenever the Islamic government of Iran is dissolved, the Baha'i Faith will, God willing, spread at an even quicker rate.


Yeh i understand they are suppressed there but i just thought you stated that the Bahai religion is the second largest religion in Iran which is why i stated that it makes up 2% of the population along with Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians.

And at the same rate (or probably even greater) the new generation is rejecting Islam, like the majority of the youth in Iran. Most of the young people are partying, drinking, and not being Muslim in general (although many Muslims themselves do engage in these activities). Muslims in large numbers across the globe are unfortunately giving Islam a bad image. So we'll see how things turn out, Abbas. I don't see Islam as growing at a quicker rate (because of the publicity, and other things), I actually see the opposite. Only God knows...


This based on assumptions though. You may be seeing it that way, where others see it totally the opposite.

When you say "Muslims in large numbers across the globe are unfortunately giving Islam a bad image." is simply media propaganda. And depends on who is classed as Muslims. The Wahabis are the extremists that go around terrorising people and killing the innocent. To us, these people are not Muslims. They are our "covenant breakers".

But it is a known fact that Islam is growing at a quicker rate. Do a search on google. As i said, even though the publicity is bad, people are wanting to know more and more about Islam and once they find out the truth of it, Islam continues to grow. There are so many situations that we hear where ignorant people listen to the media how they portray Islam and eventually meet a Muslim and realise its totally different and they tend to accept it. Ive personally experienced this myself, however the person is still researching about Islam. People all over the world are hearing about Islam and decide to research futher into it. This is why after September 11th, there was an increase of converts. Do a search on youtube and you will find documentaries and interviews with Muslim converts after the "terrorist" attacks.

I wasn't talking about how well known it is. I was talking about how the Baha'i Faith transforms generally all its members into virtuous, noble souls, especially compared to others. I don't see significant numbers of Baha'is (or even 1 single person at that!) blowing cars up, jihading women and children, and destroying civilization.


And i dont see any Muslims doing this either, except out of defence and protecting their country. What i do see are the Wahabis (covenant breakers) that are killing, bombing, destroying, etc.

Everywhere. Take Iran. Just talk to anyone who lived in Tehran, he will tell you how bad the dishonesty is in the city and that it almost makes it impossible to live there. How much more so is the case with how they treat "najas" Baha'is. It is a noble thing in Islam to lie and cheat these "inferior," "najas" "infidels."


Based on heresay. I have spoken to many iranians, including my gf who does not believe this. Heresay bears no weight - you should know this.

You say: "It is a noble thing in Islam to lie and cheat these "inferior," "najas" "infidels." Umm......there is nothing to indicate that its a noble thing in Islam to lie and cheat the infidels. You cant simply make statements based on assumptions. Provide some facts and the readers will accept it, but assumptions also bear no weight.

Are Baha'is cutting off heads and blowing up cars and screaming "God is great"? Not even one Baha'i!


Are Muslims doing that? Or is it the Wahabis? Simply listening to the Media's propaganda is obviously not a great source! :roll:

They don't even have unity within sects!


So there is no unity within the Shia sect? In what way?

Yes, people who have been kicked out of the Baha'i A.O. have went on to form their own group.


No, that is not necessarily true. There are Bahai's who do not believe that the UHJ should exist. The sects occurred before the UHJ was created, therefore they were not kicked out. There are sects who followed Abdul Baha and avoided the interpretations of Shoghi Effendi. These sects did not form after they were kicked out. They either chose to follow them after the UHJs existence or before.

But you tell Britannica that they are wrong for not including those cults in their statistics. We don't think they are Baha'is, and Britannica doesn't think they are, nor any other agency that takes official statistics of world religions. Don't worry about it, my friend...they are not significant to anyone.


So Britannica doesnt think they are Bahais? And they dont think the Wahabis are Muslims either, so Muslims are not the ones who kill the innocent. The statistics for Islam are generally Shia and Sunni. These other "covenant breakers" are not included. Just like the different Bahai sects which are not included.

The Baha'is Faith is about unity...none of them terrorize others. What is it in Islam that can even cause one person to do these things? Can you even tell me one Baha'i who can become to wild, violent, and destructive, to the point of killing others in the name of religion? Note that I am not saying all Muslims are like this, but the fact that a good number of them are raises the issue of whether or not their religion unifies anymore.


Just like no other Muslim terrorises others. I have discussed Wahabis so im pretty sure you are now aware who does the terrorising.

You say: "but the fact that a good number of them....." I hope your meaning a good number of wahabis, because as i have shown, the Muslims are not the ones doing the killing. Again, your making assumptions.

Spiritual eyes can deceive when there is thick smog surrounding them or when they are totally blind.


Thats very true, which can make them follow something false or follow the Truth. No arguments here.

The Baha'is aren't all perfect knowledge-wise regarding religions. This is a goal that hopefully many are striving for, especially considering our teachings on the importance of knowing about other religions.


But this guy completed the Ruhi books and still doesnt know anything. And as i have demonstrated with my gf, she tutors these Ruhi books and she disagrees with most of the Bahai ways and doesnt know how to answer anything. I know more than her even though she's been a Bahai all her life and studied it.

Even if the labels are detached, the bottles look distinctly different (By the way, this problem assumes that one has been around Gatorade and Mountain Dew bottles and is of average IQ.)


Yeh if the problem assumes that one has been around these drinks their whole life, well yeh. It would be damn obvious. This is why this analogy doesnt fit in well with religion unless a person does not know these drinks. Its not like there is a clear label on religion which states "this is false" and "this is the Truth". If it was that simple, im sure the majority of the world will follow the one path.

Good luck on the spiritual journey if you are on one Abbas. It is commended that you are trying to be a loyal Muslim, doing what you perceive to be right. I myself, being a Baha'i, at once feel like a loyal Muslim, a loyal Christian, a loyal Buddhist, etc.


Yeh im always on a spiritual journey. Thanks for the luck. :D

Regards
Abbas

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Postby FruccalFrilia » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:46 pm

"SINCE thou hast faithfully obeyed the true religion of God in the past, it behooveth thee to follow His true religion hereafter, inasmuch as every religion proceedeth from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.
He Who hath revealed the Qur’án unto Muhammad, the Apostle of God, ordaining in the Faith of Islám that which was pleasing unto Him, hath likewise revealed the Bayán, in the manner ye have been promised, unto Him Who is your Qá’im, your Guide, your Mihdí, your Lord, Him Whom ye acclaim as the manifestation of God’s most excellent titles."

-Selections from the Writings of the Báb
EXCERPTS FROM THE KITÁB-I-ASMÁ (The Book of Names)
page 139

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:29 am

Golha,

Here's a trick, which I use all the time. Go to S.W.B, and hit command F (find) if you use a Mac, and search for the word "Mihdi," "Mahdi," and "Qa'im," and you will find a whole bunch of references to it. It isn't obscure or anything, it's actually all over the place.


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