"truth" cannot be forced and remain truth

All research or scholarship questions
Baha'i Warrior
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Re: "TRUTH" CANNOT BE FORCED AND REMAIN TRUTH

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:43 am

richard wrote:Force, coercion, swords, and war are not manifestations of truth and can never spread nor reveal truth.


Then you will feel right at home here, as Baha'u'llah has abolished the use of the sword as a means of spreading the Faith. 8-)

richard wrote:Neither force nor the dead theory of even the highest religious doctrines have the power to transform human character or to control mortal behavior.


Very true. Only the person can change himself, and others cannot force that change upon him. That is the whole idea of the Baha'i principle of the independent investigation of truth. When a kid in a Baha'i family turns 15, he has to decide for himself which direction he will go religiously speaking. His parents cannot force him to become a Baha'i, or any other religion.

richard wrote:What the world of today needs is the truth which your teacher of old declared: "Not in word only but also in the spiritual truth & power of the Holy Spirit." The seed of theoretical truth is dead, the highest moral concepts without effect, unless and until the divine Spirit breathes upon the forms of truth and quickens the formulas of righteousness without force.


I agree with that...except that what the world needs most of all right now is the teachings and social principles of Baha'u'llah. Study them if you want, and look at the state of the world, then see if you agree.

richard wrote:The Spirit of Truth never drives, only leads. If you are a willing learner, if you want to attain spirit levels and reach divine heights, if you sincerely desire to reach the eternal goal, then the divine Spirit will gently and lovingly lead you along the pathway of sonship, spiritual progress, even on to Truth. Every step you take must be one of willingness, intelligent and cheerful co-operation. The domination of the Spirit is never tainted with coercion nor compromised by compulsion.


All of this is true.

richard wrote:Always respect the personality of man. Never should a righteous cause be promoted by force; spiritual victories can be won only by spiritual power.


Again, 100% in conformity with Baha'i belief. ;-)

...I am getting the sense at this point that your are quoting from a source...if you are, could you please always cite your sources Richard!!!!!!!!!! Thanks! :D

FruccalFrilia
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Postby FruccalFrilia » Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:34 pm

"In all of my many opportunities of meeting, of listening to and talking with Abdu'l-Bahá I was impressed, and constantly more deeply impressed, with His method of teaching souls. That is the word. He did not attempt to reach the mind alone. He sought the soul, the reality of every one He met. Oh, He could be logical, even scientific in His presentation of an argument, as He demonstrated constantly in the many addresses I have heard Him give and the many more I have read. But it was not the logic of the schoolman, not the science of the classroom. His lightest word. His slightest association with a soul was shot through with an illuminating radiance which lifted the hearer to a higher plane of consciousness. Our hearts burned within us when He spoke. And He never argued, of course. Nor did He press a point. He left one free. There was never an assumption of authority, rather He was ever the personification of humility. He taught "as if offering a gift to a king." He never told me what I should do, beyond suggesting that what I was doing was right. Nor did He ever tell me what I should believe. He made Truth and Love so beautiful and royal that the heart perforce did reverence. He showed me by His voice, manner, bearing, smile, how I should be, knowing that out of the pure soil of being the good fruit of deeds and words would surely spring."
-Howard Colby Ives, Portals to Freedom, p195

The whole book that this wonderful excerpt is from is on this site. I came across this during a Bahai Ruhi book 6 study circle.

majnun
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hello

Postby majnun » Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:06 am

Dear Richard:

Some people say, the truth is the truth, and
everything outside the truth is not the truth.
Logically, it sounds quite "true".

But any truth, or any "true" faih, is not eternal.
Should I risk: it is true for an era, an epoch,
a time span ?

We baha'is know, from our scriptures, (in the Iqan and else)
that our messages will be efficient for 500 or 1000 years,
countdown started at 1260hg / 1844 ad.

We would act like all the older religions do, if we
pretend our writings will be "true" forever. As humanity
grows up, new problems comes up, and new remedies
and prescriptions are required.

MJ

Zazaban
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Postby Zazaban » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:17 pm

Very true Majnun, except that pertains to physical laws not spiritual truths.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.
~ Bahá'u'lláh

Dorumerosaer
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Re: hello

Postby Dorumerosaer » Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:30 pm

majnun wrote: We baha'is know, from our scriptures, (in the Iqan and else) that our messages will be efficient for 500 or 1000 years


My understanding is that the duration of the Baha'i Dispensation will be *not less* than 1000 years. There is a pilgrim's note from the Master where He points out that it might be 10,000 or 20,000 years in duration. All we know for sure is that the next Manifestation of God "endowed with constancy" will not appear sooner than 1000 years.

Also, I do not refer to the "old religions," I prefer to refer to them as the earlier divine Revelations. While certain portions of them are superceded, there is a lot that is not -- the example of the Holy Ones, their spirit and their deeds, and the spiritual guidance in all the Holy Books.

Brent

British_Bahai
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Postby British_Bahai » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:21 am

:question: Richard, where did you get this from? Please can you post a reference

Baha'i Warrior
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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:51 am

Certainly not from the Bible. He's referencing some book. I heard the name once but forget it.

FruccalFrilia
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Postby FruccalFrilia » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:14 pm

Some quotes quotes may be from the Urantia book.

http://www.truthbook.com/

http://www.urantiabook.org/

Baha'i Warrior
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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:41 pm

The Urantia book is universally considered bogus...

FruccalFrilia
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Postby FruccalFrilia » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:44 pm

Although it does contain spiritual truths. Perhaps thats the reason why richard has concealed the origin of the quotes(if it is indeed the Urantia). To prevent debate and wrangling over authenticity and focus instead on the validity of the spiritual concepts.

Baha'i Warrior
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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:47 pm

The Urantia Book:

"According to The Urantia Book, colored human races originated suddenly in one generation and in one family, producing brothers and sisters that variously turned blue, yellow, red, green, orange, and indigo when exposed to sunlight. Their offspring favored the parent color subsequently. Later, Adam and Eve produced a violet race. In the book's account, the superior races were violet, blue, yellow, and red, and the other three were inferior. The green and orange races were driven to extinction, and the rest mixed over time. Modern evolutionary theory does not support the account."

"The book repeats the idea prevalent at the time of its origin that one side of the planet Mercury always faces the sun due to tidal locking. In 1965, radio astronomers discovered that Mercury actually rotates fast enough for all sides to see exposure to the sun."

"The book says that a solar eclipse was predicted in 1808 by the Native American prophet Tenskwatawa. The eclipse actually was predicted in late April of 1806 and occurred on June 16, 1806."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urantia

British_Bahai
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Postby British_Bahai » Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:02 am

Argos wrote:Although it does contain spiritual truths. Perhaps thats the reason why richard has concealed the origin of the quotes(if it is indeed the Urantia). To prevent debate and wrangling over authenticity and focus instead on the validity of the spiritual concepts.

i think thats the most important thing...

Baha'i Warrior
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Urantia

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:32 am

Hey Richard,

About the subject of the Urantia book, I meant no offense, really. If you see wisdom in those words, then hey, that's good—whatever floats your boat. Indeed, people like Gandhi or the Dali Lama say good and wise things, and even though I personally might not find their writings to be my cup of tea, that doesn't make their words untrue. To each his own, right?

I've been "trolling" a bit too much on this forum—at least I believe—and I want to give others a chance to start their own discussions, so this will be my last post for a while. I'd like to once more strongly, strongly, encourage you to get more serious about Baha'u'llah, at least as much you are about Christ. You've stated that you find wisdom and goodness in Baha'u'llah's Words, but what I mean is become His follower—that is, become just as devoted to His Words as you are to Jesus', or even more so. You might have some doubts, and uncertainties, about the Baha'i Faith, coming from a Christian background, and having been taught to beware of "false prophets." Or maybe what's keeping you back is certain Baha'i laws, and you might be reluctant to give up your daily glass of wine, for example. But don't let these keep you back from the greatness that is associated with being an adherent of Him who is God's Mouthpiece for today. (Of course, it takes a lot more than just signing a declaration card.) I do not exhort you to become an adherent of Baha'u'llah for egotistic purposes, as I don't know you personally and wouldn't even really know if, you became a Baha'i. And also if you did become a Baha'i, I wouldn't be awarded 20% of my next car wash, or magically wake up in the morning with 22" biceps. :smile: From what I know about you, you're advanced in years, and all Baha'is want to do is give you eternal life (sorry if that sounds trite or cliched). There is a certain advantage associated with recognizing God's Manifestation in His Day. Not that Baha'is are the only ones that are going into heaven—that's wrong if you read the Writings. But there is no doubt a great advantage associated with recognizing and becoming an adherent of the One God sent to us. It's like the difference between owning a nice huge house, and owning a mansion made of gold. My hope is that you will really strongly consider that Baha'u'llah is God's true Manifestation for Today (and thus what actions follow such a belief), and for you to become one of His spiritual sons—and if you have considered this and are still considering, to continue doing to.

My post is not meant to start a debate, I just wanted to bring this up one last time because I think it's important. And if you think the above is all just egoistic and prideful, and nothing else, then indeed you could always be correct in your judgement about that (or not), but there's certainly no point in arguing over it. Just my two cents' worth, that's all.

All the best,

British_Bahai
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Re: Urantia

Postby British_Bahai » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:40 am

Baha'i Warrior wrote:Hey Richard,

About the subject of the Urantia book, I meant no offense, really. If you see wisdom in those words, then hey, that's good—whatever floats your boat. Indeed, people like Gandhi or the Dali Lama say good and wise things, and even though I personally might not find their writings to be my cup of tea, that doesn't make their words untrue. To each his own, right?


...

Baha'i Warrior wrote:
richard wrote:Force, coercion, swords, and war are not manifestations of truth and can never spread nor reveal truth.


Then you will feel right at home here, as Baha'u'llah has abolished the use of the sword as a means of spreading the Faith. 8-)

richard wrote:Neither force nor the dead theory of even the highest religious doctrines have the power to transform human character or to control mortal behavior.


Very true. Only the person can change himself, and others cannot force that change upon him. That is the whole idea of the Baha'i principle of the independent investigation of truth. When a kid in a Baha'i family turns 15, he has to decide for himself which direction he will go religiously speaking. His parents cannot force him to become a Baha'i, or any other religion.

richard wrote:What the world of today needs is the truth which your teacher of old declared: "Not in word only but also in the spiritual truth & power of the Holy Spirit." The seed of theoretical truth is dead, the highest moral concepts without effect, unless and until the divine Spirit breathes upon the forms of truth and quickens the formulas of righteousness without force.


I agree with that...except that what the world needs most of all right now is the teachings and social principles of Baha'u'llah. Study them if you want, and look at the state of the world, then see if you agree.

richard wrote:The Spirit of Truth never drives, only leads. If you are a willing learner, if you want to attain spirit levels and reach divine heights, if you sincerely desire to reach the eternal goal, then the divine Spirit will gently and lovingly lead you along the pathway of sonship, spiritual progress, even on to Truth. Every step you take must be one of willingness, intelligent and cheerful co-operation. The domination of the Spirit is never tainted with coercion nor compromised by compulsion.


All of this is true.

richard wrote:Always respect the personality of man. Never should a righteous cause be promoted by force; spiritual victories can be won only by spiritual power.


Again, 100% in conformity with Baha'i belief. ;-)

...I am getting the sense at this point that your are quoting from a source...if you are, could you please always cite your sources Richard!!!!!!!!!! Thanks! :D

Zazaban
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Postby Zazaban » Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:17 am

richard wrote:Back with you BB,
you wrote:


"Again, 100% in conformity with Baha'i belief.

...I am getting the sense at this point that your are quoting from a source...if you are, could you please always cite your sources Richard!!!!!!!!!! Thanks! "

I should let you know British Baha'i was quoting Baha'i Warrior for the entire post.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh

Zazaban
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Postby Zazaban » Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:41 pm

richard wrote:
Zazaban wrote:
richard wrote:Back with you BB,
you wrote:


[b]"Again, 100% in conformity with Baha'i belief.

...I am getting the sense at this point that your are quoting from a source...if you are, could you please always cite your sources Richard!!!!!!!!!! Thanks! "

I should let you know British Baha'i was quoting Baha'i Warrior for the entire post.
[/b]


Well, yes Zazaban, but i think, to be totally accurate, that BB was quoting BW who was quoting me, and since i could find no post from BW where he responded to what i said, i have had to assume that BB, who wrote the post, is the one who commented favorably on what i said. If that was in fact BW, and not BB, who was agreeing with me, please let me know.

Thanks to you, Zazaban, or to BB or BW, for clarifying this matter as to who said what in response to what i had said.

In reverence to our One & Only God of All and His Perfect Spirit of Truth, Love, and Goodness... richard
Yes, it was actually Baha'i Warrior's words, I checked.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh


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