The Bab's claim to be Qa'im

All research or scholarship questions
choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Postby choogue » Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:33 pm

Why haven't many of the books of the Bab been translated into English?
the selected writings of the Bab is only 275 pages,while only the persian Bayan is more than 300 pages.


Thats a very interesting question. Never actually thought of that before.

2.The word " bab" literally means "gate". The Bab in many of his writings cliam to be the Gate of the 12th Imam,namely Muhammad ibn al Hassan:


Have the UHJ added to the Babs claim, where he basically denies being the Mahdi, in the Selected Writings of the Bab?

Regards
Abbas

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Re: The Bab's claim to be Qa'im

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:31 am

golha wrote:In the thread which was locked, Bahai Warrior answered my question about the Bab's claim to Qa'im from the selected writings of the Bab .I thank BW. I have some comments and questions:
1.Why haven't many of the books of the Bab been translated into English?
the selected writings of the Bab is only 275 pages,while only the persian Bayan is more than 300 pages.


Because Baha'u'llah's Words are the priority now, and we don't have the resources to do all this stuff at once. The Bab Himself said that Baha'u'llah's Words would be much more important.

golha wrote:2.The word " bab" literally means "gate". The Bab in many of his writings cliam to be the Gate of the 12th Imam,namely Muhammad ibn al Hassan...Which of the claim should we belive?


Can you be more specific?

brettz9
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:12 pm
Contact:

Postby brettz9 » Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:15 am

The Bab progressively revealed His status. At first when people understood Him to be the gate of the Imam (as those four gates had done for the Holy Imam in an earlier age), He perhaps didn't correct them. But when He was challenged about it, He stated that He wasn't such a (mere) gate. The others took this to be Him withdrawing His claim, but in actuality, He was only making peace at the time (for His uncle's sake, it would seem) by not yet openly stating the other corresponding part to this denial--i.e., that although He was not a mere gate, He was in fact the "Gate" (with a capital "G")--an independent Manifestation of God Who would prepare the way for yet another Manifestation of God soon to come. He of course later made this claim (when the time was right), and quite boldly and openly in the presence of the Heir to the throne--a bold act which ultimately led to His execution.

By the way, for those claiming there is a Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Baha stating that the 12th Imam didn't exist, I have at least one Persian (and fairly scholarly) friend who read the Tablet in question and came to the opposite conclusion--that 'Abdu'l-Baha was criticizing any who would state that there wasn't a 12th Imam--but we really need some experts to go through it for us to be sure. If anyone who knows Persian or Arabic (or someone who does) could help, it would be a great asset to our discussions here, as the issue has come up several times already...

take care,
Brett

brettz9
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:12 pm
Contact:

Postby brettz9 » Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:25 am

As a reference for my post just posted above, there is this passage from Nabil's Narrative/The Dawn-Breakers.

The Bab, as He faced the congregation, declared: "The condemnation of God be upon him who regards me either as a representative of the Imam or the gate thereof. The condemnation of God be also upon whosoever imputes to me the charge of having denied the unity of God, of having repudiated the prophethood of Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets, of having rejected the truth of any of the messengers of old, or of having refused to recognise the guardianship of Ali, the Commander of the Faithful, or of any of the imams who have succeeded him." He then ascended to the top of the staircase, embraced the Imam-Jum'ih, and, descending to the floor of the Masjid, joined the congregation for the observance of the Friday prayer. The Imam-Jum'ih intervened and requested Him to retire. "Your family," he said, "is anxiously awaiting your return. All are apprehensive lest any harm befall you. Repair to your house and there offer your prayer; of greater merit shall this deed be in the sight of God."

(Dawn-Breakers, p. 154 at http://bahai-library.com/books/dawnbrea ... 8.html#154 )


Notice He does not deny BEING the return of the Imam (nor being the "Gate" to Baha'ullah)--just disclaiming that He was a mere gate of the Imam.

take care,
Brett

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:25 pm

The Bab was the Forerunner of Baha'u'llah, much like how John the Baptist announced was the coming of Christ. His mission was to get people ready for Baha'u'llah. Most of His laws were very specific. For example one of the Bab's Laws was that you can't eat garlic or onions so that your breath doesn't offend Baha'u'llah, or that you have to stand up when you hear His name, but obviously that isn't applicable now.

For historical reasons it'd be good to translate them, but the Bab Himself said how much more important Baha'u'llah's Words and Revelation would be. We are a small religion right now, and any resources that we have are used for our priorities first (i.e. Tablets of Baha'u'llah).

choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Postby choogue » Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:55 pm

Hey BW,

From what i understand, i think Golha was asking where the Bab said Bahaullahs word are more important or where Bahaullah said it?

Correct me if im wrong Golha.

Regards
Abbas

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:17 pm

Thanks for pointing that out Abbas.

—BW

-----

I SWEAR by the most holy Essence of God--exalted and glorified be He--that in the Day of the appearance of Him Whom God shall make manifest a thousand perusals of the Bayán cannot equal the perusal of a single verse to be revealed by Him Whom God shall make manifest.

Ponder a while and observe that everything in Islam hath its ultimate and eventual beginning in the Book of God. Consider likewise the Day of the Revelation of Him Whom God shall make manifest, He in Whose grasp lieth the source of proofs, and let not erroneous considerations shut thee out from Him, for He is immeasurably exalted above them, inasmuch as every proof proceedeth from the Book of God which is itself the supreme testimony, as all men are powerless to produce its like. Should myriads of men of learning, versed in logic, in the science of grammar, in law, in jurisprudence and the like, turn away from the Book of God, they would still be pronounced unbelievers. Thus the fruit is within the supreme testimony itself, not in the things derived therefrom. And know thou of a certainty that every letter revealed in the Bayán is solely intended to evoke submission unto Him Whom God shall make manifest, for it is He Who hath revealed the Bayán prior to His Own manifestation. (SWB, p. 104)

___________________________________


AT the time of the manifestation of Him Whom God shall make manifest everyone should be well trained in the teachings of the Bayán, so that none of the followers may outwardly cling to the Bayán and thus forfeit their allegiance unto Him. If anyone does so, the verdict of `disbeliever in God' shall be passed upon him.

I swear by the holy Essence of God, were all in the Bayán to unite in helping Him Whom God shall make manifest in the days of His Revelation, not a single soul, nay, not a created thing would remain on earth that would not gain admittance into Paradise. Take good heed of yourselves, for the sum total of the religion of God is but to help Him, rather than to observe, in the time of His appearance, such deeds as are prescribed in the Bayán. Should anyone, however, ere He manifesteth Himself, transgress the ordinances, were it to the extent of a grain of barley, he would have trangressed His command.

Seek ye refuge in God from whatsoever might lead you astray from the Source of His Revelation and hold fast unto His Cord, for whoso holdeth fast unto His allegiance, he hath attained and will attain salvation in all the worlds. (SWB [http://bahai-library.com/writings/bab/swb/swball.html], p. 85)

---------------

uwoHXaCnf
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:21 am
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Postby uwoHXaCnf » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:37 am

brettz9 wrote:The Bab progressively revealed His status. At first when people understood Him to be the gate of the Imam (as those four gates had done for the Holy Imam in an earlier age), He perhaps didn't correct them. But when He was challenged about it, He stated that He wasn't such a (mere) gate. The others took this to be Him withdrawing His claim, but in actuality, He was only making peace at the time (for His uncle's sake, it would seem) by not yet openly stating the other corresponding part to this denial--i.e., that although He was not a mere gate, He was in fact the "Gate" (with a capital "G")--an independent Manifestation of God Who would prepare the way for yet another Manifestation of God soon to come. He of course later made this claim (when the time was right), and quite boldly and openly in the presence of the Heir to the throne--a bold act which ultimately led to His execution.

By the way, for those claiming there is a Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Baha stating that the 12th Imam didn't exist, I have at least one Persian (and fairly scholarly) friend who read the Tablet in question and came to the opposite conclusion--that 'Abdu'l-Baha was criticizing any who would state that there wasn't a 12th Imam--but we really need some experts to go through it for us to be sure. If anyone who knows Persian or Arabic (or someone who does) could help, it would be a great asset to our discussions here, as the issue has come up several times already...

take care,
Brett


Dear Brett:

Thank you for your interpretation of the Bab's actions. We really dont have the Bab saying what you have just interpreted. On the other hand, all we have is a series of claims followed by a series of denials. And for all that it is worth, the books of the Bab, which are conveniently "not available", are full of references to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi of Islam.

uwoHXaCnf
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:21 am
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Postby uwoHXaCnf » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:15 am

Baha'i Warrior wrote:The Bab was the Forerunner of Baha'u'llah, much like how John the Baptist announced was the coming of Christ. His mission was to get people ready for Baha'u'llah. Most of His laws were very specific. For example one of the Bab's Laws was that you can't eat garlic or onions so that your breath doesn't offend Baha'u'llah, or that you have to stand up when you hear His name, but obviously that isn't applicable now.

For historical reasons it'd be good to translate them, but the Bab Himself said how much more important Baha'u'llah's Words and Revelation would be. We are a small religion right now, and any resources that we have are used for our priorities first (i.e. Tablets of Baha'u'llah).


bw, have you considered the fact that for Muslims all over the world in 1860 and for Shiites in particular, the advent of the Bab is a big big event. For thousands of years, the Shiites were waiting for the Mahdi and whoosh!, the Mahdi has come and gone. Forget about the world, very few people in Iran knew about the Bab, his laws and claims etc. This is in contrast to the traditions which indicate that the advent of the Mahdi will be known to all.

Secondly, by the time, people (for example, like myself) came to know about the Bab, we were told that he is not relevant anymore, you have to follow Bahaullah.

Thirdly, the life of the Bab itself was mired in controversy and suffering, both for the Bab and his followers. The followers of Bahaullah today are more than ever cribbing about how they are suffering. This too is in contrast to the traditions that the Mahdi will overcome all governments - IN HIS LIFETIME - and not that it will happen sometime in the foreseable future. In fact, if at all the Bahais and present world conditions are to be considered, it is difficult even in the forseable future. Not even the UHJ can tell us when this will happen.

How can one reconcile these diverse views?

Regards,

brettz9
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:12 pm
Contact:

Postby brettz9 » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:27 am

Thank you for your interpretation of the Bab's actions. We really dont have the Bab saying what you have just interpreted. On the other hand, all we have is a series of claims followed by a series of denials.


Well, I quoted from a source. What kind of source do you want? Do you expect us to find a tape recording? ;)

Critics of Islam could make and have made the same arguments as you are making...Challenge the authenticity of the Qur'an, and so on. Do we have Muhammad's signature, etc.? How do we really know the Qur'an was written down by Muhammad? These are not worthy arguments. Only people who feel insecure in their own belief feel the need to persist in making them. The proof lies in its results--in its power to change people for good. Such-and-such tradition is an academic argument and of little relevance to a true believer, much as should be the traditions clung to by Jews or Christians which they understand to refute His Holiness Muhammad.

And for all that it is worth, the books of the Bab, which are conveniently "not available", are full of references to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi of Islam.


Well, Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, has stated that most of the books of the Bab were corrupted by the Azalis. It was a tumultuous time. I believe he stated that only the Bayan and perhaps some other works were preserved. I don't have the information at hand right now.

Is it a conspiracy that we don't have the original palm leaves of the Revelation of His Holiness, Muhammad? Were they "conveniently" lost?

Might I ask you whether you have considered whether you possess some fear of God and have some humility to question whether it is in fact possible that what you are mocking is in fact the True Faith from God? Does it scare you to consider you might be judged for your failure to show humility and some openness of heart when someone has come to you with news that might relate to His Great Announcement? Can it not be possible that words such as "everyone" will see Him, be understood in a different manner?

With there being such prominent heresies in Islam out there as to suggest that people should act immorally in order to hasten the return of the Imam, I would think that any effort in trying to expunge heresies would focus a little more attention on these internal things and less on an independent Faith which clearly has produced both moral and social benefits on its practitioners and those in their arena of influence (and has done a pretty fine job of establishing the Truth of Muhammad to many Jews and Christians in the West such as many Muslims have been unable to do).

But arguing is easier than changing one's own morals, so we often see a lot of attention on the former.

peace,
Brett

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:09 am

Brett, it's great to have you back! :smile: We definitely are in need of some able Baha'i spiritual soldiers at the moment! :veg:

brettz9 wrote:Might I ask you whether you have considered whether you possess some fear of God and have some humility to question whether it is in fact possible that what you are mocking is in fact the True Faith from God? Does it scare you to consider you might be judged for your failure to show humility and some openness of heart when someone has come to you with news that might relate to His Great Announcement? Can it not be possible that words such as "everyone" will see Him, be understood in a different manner?


This is the thing that always strikes me. I mean, if I were a Muslim or a Christian, and feared God's chastisement—and further if I truly loved God—then just in case the Baha'i claim is true, I'd want to be very careful. Because if it's true that Baha'u'llah comes from the same Source that Muhammad came from (and indeed Baha'u'llah calls Himself the "Sender of the Messengers"—so He sent Muhammad), the I would be a little hesitant (to say the least) to quickly denounce the Baha'i Faith, especially since by doing so I might at the same time be denouncing the words of the Qur'an, Muhammad, God, and everyone God has sent. But it's easy for people not to see it this way, and convenient too.

By the way Brett, just to let you know, the user iamimranshaykh is the author of an anti-Baha'i website (http://www.bahaiawareness.com, check out his profile). Motive, anyone? :ai8

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:23 am

golha wrote:Dear BW,
Who is" Him Whom God shall make manifest"? You certainly reply " Bah'ullah."

Why? according to which evidence?


The Bab didn't formally appoint Baha'u'llah, but everyone around Baha'u'llah pretty much knew He was the chosen one, even before He made a formal announcement. I believe in Baha'u'llah because of all the proofs that He presents, His eloquence and His compelling arguments. In His Words I hear the voice of God.

Now, let me ask you, how do you know that Muhammad was the one Jesus prophesied? Do you have any proofs? Let's see 'em. ;-) And after you give me that (of course I can deny them just like the Christians do), I'd like you to show me the proofs that Jesus was the one foretold in the Jewish scriptures. I didn't hear of any king seated upon the throne of king David wearing a crown and ruling with a sword claiming to be Jesus. It will now take you some time to prove to me that Muhammad was a Messenger of God, won't it? We'll have to go all the way back to Adam ;-)

golha wrote:It is just Bah'ullah's claim and you have acceped it without any "Free invetigation for Truth".
The Bab never appointed Bahullah as his successor.If you know any evidence from The Bab's writings-not from Abdulbaha and Shoghi- to nominate Bahullah as " Him Whom God shall make manifest", please suggest it.


Okay, you give me a better candidate, and show me where the Bab mentions him. Or do you want to say that no one eventually took the Bab's place, and that God is powerless to send Another?

uwoHXaCnf
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:21 am
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Postby uwoHXaCnf » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:05 am

brettz9 wrote:
Thank you for your interpretation of the Bab's actions. We really dont have the Bab saying what you have just interpreted. On the other hand, all we have is a series of claims followed by a series of denials.


Well, I quoted from a source. What kind of source do you want? Do you expect us to find a tape recording? ;)


I am looking for a clear, unambigious, non-interpreted quotation from the Bab. Are you aware that the Bab had specifically prohibited the interpretation of his words?

Critics of Islam could make and have made the same arguments as you are making...Challenge the authenticity of the Qur'an, and so on. Do we have Muhammad's signature, etc.? How do we really know the Qur'an was written down by Muhammad? These are not worthy arguments. Only people who feel insecure in their own belief feel the need to persist in making them. The proof lies in its results--in its power to change people for good. Such-and-such tradition is an academic argument and of little relevance to a true believer, much as should be the traditions clung to by Jews or Christians which they understand to refute His Holiness Muhammad.


The argument here is about the Bab and the Bahai Faith. I assume that the veracity of Islam is beyond question. In fact even Shoghi acknowledges that of all books from Allah, the Quran is unaltered and in its original form. If we wish to discuss Islam, then lets do it at another place, not here.

The results are not a criteria. What will you take as results? 100,000 followers, 200,000 followers?? If size is the criteria, then a lot of other global religions, including Islam will outnumber the followers of the Bahai Faith. Size does not mean anything.

And for all that it is worth, the books of the Bab, which are conveniently "not available", are full of references to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi of Islam.


Well, Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, has stated that most of the books of the Bab were corrupted by the Azalis. It was a tumultuous time. I believe he stated that only the Bayan and perhaps some other works were preserved. I don't have the information at hand right now.


So much for the results theory. The Quran which came more than 1,400 years ago is uncorrupted, despite the fact that Islam and Muslims were no less persecuted than the Bahais. Yet, the Bab's teachings which are about 150 years old are "conveniently" lost? We have only one, I prepeat, only one, book of the Bab - Selected Writings of the Bab? If his writings were altered and lost and corrupted as you have out it, where did SWB come out of? We should rephrase the sentence as "Only those books of the Bab which are detrimental to the cause of the Bahai Faith are considered to be altered or corrupted." Pardon the harshness, but there are sufficient books of the Bab available i their source languages which contradict the basic premise of the Bahai Faith - tafseere' Surah Kausar, Qayyamul Asma, Dalaelus Sabah, Sahifae' Adaliyah, Bayan etc. I could go on and on. Are all these books corrupted?

Is it a conspiracy that we don't have the original palm leaves of the Revelation of His Holiness, Muhammad? Were they "conveniently" lost?


Of course, the palm leaves were lost. Muslims never claimed to have them. But the original revelation of the Prophet - The Quran is with us as it was revealed. Islam has a rich culture of traditions and a scientific way to establish the veracity of the tradition with the Quran. But as I mentioned above, Islam is not under discussion here - the Bab is and lets stick to that.

Might I ask you whether you have considered whether you possess some fear of God and have some humility to question whether it is in fact possible that what you are mocking is in fact the True Faith from God? Does it scare you to consider you might be judged for your failure to show humility and some openness of heart when someone has come to you with news that might relate to His Great Announcement? Can it not be possible that words such as "everyone" will see Him, be understood in a different manner?


I could turn the same question back to you. You have progressed from Islam to a Faith which claims to have superceeded Islam. No problem with that. If you are correct, so be it. We Muslims must also have the opportunity to do so - but after establishing the veracity of the Faith. That is why I am and I guess a lot of others like myself are at this forum.

And if I look at your question differently, I am more fearful of the wrath of Allah as it is promised in the Quran - that of a physical resurrection. The Bahai punishment is very mild - closeness and farness from Allah - that means nothing to me really. I really do not understand it. Perhaps I may have or may not have experienced it in my life.

But yes, fire, burning, squeezing of the grave, accounting for my actions, reward and punishment, heaven and hell - I understand all that for I experience the fire of this world and I know that it burns - like Hell. So I fear the Islamic concept of the Day of Judgement more than the Bahai concept. Inshallah, I will tackle this in sometime in the future. Not now. For now the discussion is about the Bab.

With there being such prominent heresies in Islam out there as to suggest that people should act immorally in order to hasten the return of the Imam, I would think that any effort in trying to expunge heresies would focus a little more attention on these internal things and less on an independent Faith which clearly has produced both moral and social benefits on its practitioners and those in their arena of influence (and has done a pretty fine job of establishing the Truth of Muhammad to many Jews and Christians in the West such as many Muslims have been unable to do).

But arguing is easier than changing one's own morals, so we often see a lot of attention on the former.


Islam really has no need for the Bahai Faith to espound it case to Jews and Christians. The Bahai Faith needs to do that with Muslims like myself. We need to see logical, concrete and objective proof that the Bab was the Mahdi of Islam. For therein lies the key question - If the Bab was the Mahdi, then how. If he was not, then what happens to the Bahai Faith?

Therefore, lets talk about the Bab.
peace,
Brett


same to you my friend
Imran

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:35 am

iamimranshaykh wrote:Pardon the harshness, but there are sufficient books of the Bab available i their source languages which contradict the basic premise of the Bahai Faith - tafseere' Surah Kausar, Qayyamul Asma, Dalaelus Sabah, Sahifae' Adaliyah, Bayan etc. I could go on and on. Are all these books corrupted?


Would you please give some examples, first of all? Then we will go from there.

FruccalFrilia
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:45 pm
Location: Guatemala
Contact:

Postby FruccalFrilia » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:07 am

Him Whom God shall make Manifest is Baha'u'llah.

"Praise be unto Him Who at this very moment perceiveth in this remote prison the goal of My desire. He is the One Who beareth witness unto Me at all times and beholdeth Me ere the inception of ‘after Hin’**."
-The Bab (SWB 217)
**The numerical value of the letters of the word Hin is 68. The year 1268 A.H. (1851–1852 A.D.) is the year preceding the birth of the Bahá’í Revelation

Baha'u'llah received His revelation from the Maiden of Heaven in the Sya Chal between 1852 and 1853.

"I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding."
-The Bab (SWB p217)

Baha'u'llah declared openly His revelation in the garden of Ridvan in 1863. Nineteen years after 1844, the year which the Bab claimed to be the Promised One.

uwoHXaCnf
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:21 am
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Postby uwoHXaCnf » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:43 am

Baha'i Warrior wrote:
iamimranshaykh wrote:Pardon the harshness, but there are sufficient books of the Bab available i their source languages which contradict the basic premise of the Bahai Faith - tafseere' Surah Kausar, Qayyamul Asma, Dalaelus Sabah, Sahifae' Adaliyah, Bayan etc. I could go on and on. Are all these books corrupted?


Would you please give some examples, first of all? Then we will go from there.


Wonderful.

Here is one example:

In the book Sahifae' Adaliyah, not once, but twice on pages 18 and 27, the Bab refers to the twelfth Imam as Hujjat Al Qaem Mohammed Ibnil Hasan Sahebaz Zaman.

Obviously, if the Bab refers some person else as the 12th Imam, then it is not the Bab himself who was the 12th Imam, right? This observation of the Bab as taking some person else as the Mahdi has also come another book of the Bab - so Sahifae Adaliyah is not an isolated case.

Regards,

uwoHXaCnf
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:21 am
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Postby uwoHXaCnf » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:49 am

Argos wrote:Him Whom God shall make Manifest is Baha'u'llah.

"Praise be unto Him Who at this very moment perceiveth in this remote prison the goal of My desire. He is the One Who beareth witness unto Me at all times and beholdeth Me ere the inception of ‘after Hin’**."
-The Bab (SWB 217)
**The numerical value of the letters of the word Hin is 68. The year 1268 A.H. (1851–1852 A.D.) is the year preceding the birth of the Bahá’í Revelation

Baha'u'llah received His revelation from the Maiden of Heaven in the Sya Chal between 1852 and 1853.

"I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding."
-The Bab (SWB p217)

Baha'u'llah declared openly His revelation in the garden of Ridvan in 1863. Nineteen years after 1844, the year which the Bab claimed to be the Promised One.


I have 2 responses:

1. Your response is a typical Bahai one and one which is suited to hardened or "deepened" Bahais. Us, Muslims will need something better - like from the quran and traditions. If you could show us even one verse backed by a tradition indicating that a new prophet or messenger will come, then that will help.

2. Numerology has no place in Islam - who assigned numerical values to alphabets - man of God? Man assigned the alphabets. Also, if numerlogy and number playing was so important, why did the bab and bahaullah not use it as an argument? Also, I repeat, it has not value in Islam.

Regards,

FruccalFrilia
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:45 pm
Location: Guatemala
Contact:

Postby FruccalFrilia » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:56 am

Someone else asked how the Baha'u'llah could be "Him Whom God will make Manifest" mentioned by the Bab and I provided possible connections.

uwoHXaCnf
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:21 am
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Postby uwoHXaCnf » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:31 am

Argos wrote:Someone else asked how the Baha'u'llah could be "Him Whom God will make Manifest" mentioned by the Bab and I provided possible connections.


Noted. I dont want to digress from the original point about the Bab being the Qaem or the Mahdi and the proofs for the same. Any reason that you can think of why the Bab would speak about a revelation so close to his own in symbols? Mirza Hussain Ali Noori was present at that time, he could have just said that this fellow here will come with a new revelation.

The Holy Prophet of Islam when he wanted to announce the successorship of Imam Ali - he said very clearly - this Ali. He did not talk in circles.

Anyway, request that we stick to the point of the Bab being the Mahdi of Islam.

Respectfully yours,

Zazaban
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:16 pm
Location: Canada

Postby Zazaban » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:41 am

iamimranshaykh wrote:
Argos wrote:Someone else asked how the Baha'u'llah could be "Him Whom God will make Manifest" mentioned by the Bab and I provided possible connections.


Noted. I dont want to digress from the original point about the Bab being the Qaem or the Mahdi and the proofs for the same. Any reason that you can think of why the Bab would speak about a revelation so close to his own in symbols? Mirza Hussain Ali Noori was present at that time, he could have just said that this fellow here will come with a new revelation.

The Holy Prophet of Islam when he wanted to announce the successorship of Imam Ali - he said very clearly - this Ali. He did not talk in circles.

Anyway, request that we stick to the point of the Bab being the Mahdi of Islam.

Respectfully yours,


Ali was not a new Prophet.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.
~ Bahá'u'lláh

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:54 am

Zazaban wrote:
iamimranshaykh wrote:
Argos wrote:Someone else asked how the Baha'u'llah could be "Him Whom God will make Manifest" mentioned by the Bab and I provided possible connections.


Noted. I dont want to digress from the original point about the Bab being the Qaem or the Mahdi and the proofs for the same. Any reason that you can think of why the Bab would speak about a revelation so close to his own in symbols? Mirza Hussain Ali Noori was present at that time, he could have just said that this fellow here will come with a new revelation.

The Holy Prophet of Islam when he wanted to announce the successorship of Imam Ali - he said very clearly - this Ali. He did not talk in circles.

Anyway, request that we stick to the point of the Bab being the Mahdi of Islam.

Respectfully yours,


Ali was not a new Prophet.


Yes, Zazaban is right. Imam Ali wasn't a prophet.

Also, iamimranshaykh, you say:

"The Holy Prophet of Islam when he wanted to announce the successorship of Imam Ali - he said very clearly - this Ali. He did not talk in circles."

Do you have any proof of this? Only a few people heard Him announcing this successorship. It it were clear who He appointed, then at least more than 15% of the Muslim population would be Shi'a.

uwoHXaCnf
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:21 am
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Postby uwoHXaCnf » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:08 am

Argos wrote:Also, iamimranshaykh, you say:

"The Holy Prophet of Islam when he wanted to announce the successorship of Imam Ali - he said very clearly - this Ali. He did not talk in circles."

Do you have any proof of this? Only a few people heard Him announcing this successorship. It it were clear who He appointed, then at least more than 15% of the Muslim population would be Shi'a.


Whether 15% or the entire Muslim population accepted Imam Ali or not is not the question under consideration. Lets assume that nobody accepted Imam Ali - yet there are convservatively more than 2,000 traditions (this is a very very conservative number) on the prophet's declaration of the succesorship of Imam Ali. If we wish to talk about that, then it should move to another thread. Besides, you are Bahai - the succesorship of Imam Ali should be clear to you. Forget about Islamic sources, I could even provide verses from Qayyamul Asma about the succesorship of Imam Ali.

Having said all that, this thread deals with the Bab being the Mahdi of Islam and whether he made a public, clear, unambigious declaration of Bahaullah. Lets stick to this point and not digress please.

Regards,

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:23 am

iamimranshaykh wrote:Whether 15% or the entire Muslim population accepted Imam Ali or not is not the question under consideration. Lets assume that nobody accepted Imam Ali - yet there are convservatively more than 2,000 traditions (this is a very very conservative number) on the prophet's declaration of the succesorship of Imam Ali. If we wish to talk about that, then it should move to another thread.


But they could be fabricated. ;-)

iamimranshaykh wrote:Besides, you are Bahai - the succesorship of Imam Ali should be clear to you. Forget about Islamic sources, I could even provide verses from Qayyamul Asma about the succesorship of Imam Ali.


I know, I never said I didn't believe in the Imams. My point was, you are saying that the Bab never formally appointed Baha'u'llah, and you are basing your belief of Imam Ali's station by tradition, but not by the Words of the Qu'ran. So the point is, not everything in religion is so cut and dried to everyone, that is where the element of faith comes in.

uwoHXaCnf
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:21 am
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Postby uwoHXaCnf » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:31 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:
iamimranshaykh wrote:Whether 15% or the entire Muslim population accepted Imam Ali or not is not the question under consideration. Lets assume that nobody accepted Imam Ali - yet there are convservatively more than 2,000 traditions (this is a very very conservative number) on the prophet's declaration of the succesorship of Imam Ali. If we wish to talk about that, then it should move to another thread.


But they could be fabricated. ;-)

iamimranshaykh wrote:Besides, you are Bahai - the succesorship of Imam Ali should be clear to you. Forget about Islamic sources, I could even provide verses from Qayyamul Asma about the succesorship of Imam Ali.


I know, I never said I didn't believe in the Imams. My point was, you are saying that the Bab never formally appointed Baha'u'llah, and you are basing your belief of Imam Ali's station by tradition, but not by the Words of the Qu'ran. So the point is, not everything in religion is so cut and dried to everyone, that is where the element of faith comes in.


Wrong - In Islam - we are discussing the Shiite point of view here - everything is cut and dried. Our faith is not led by personal judgement or opinion - it is led by what the Prophet and the Imams told us. They told us and we obeyed.

Coming back to the question - did the Bab make a formal announcement using the name of Bahaullah and / or Mirza Hussayn Ali Noori as the One Whom God will Manifest?

uwoHXaCnf
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:21 am
Location: Hungary
Contact:

Postby uwoHXaCnf » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:36 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:
iamimranshaykh wrote:Whether 15% or the entire Muslim population accepted Imam Ali or not is not the question under consideration. Lets assume that nobody accepted Imam Ali - yet there are convservatively more than 2,000 traditions (this is a very very conservative number) on the prophet's declaration of the succesorship of Imam Ali. If we wish to talk about that, then it should move to another thread.


But they could be fabricated. ;-)

iamimranshaykh wrote:Besides, you are Bahai - the succesorship of Imam Ali should be clear to you. Forget about Islamic sources, I could even provide verses from Qayyamul Asma about the succesorship of Imam Ali.


I know, I never said I didn't believe in the Imams. My point was, you are saying that the Bab never formally appointed Baha'u'llah, and you are basing your belief of Imam Ali's station by tradition, but not by the Words of the Qu'ran. So the point is, not everything in religion is so cut and dried to everyone, that is where the element of faith comes in.


Wrong - In Islam - we are discussing the Shiite point of view here - everything is cut and dried. Our faith is not led by personal judgement or opinion - it is led by what the Prophet and the Imams told us. They told us and we obeyed.

Coming back to the question - did the Bab make a formal announcement using the name of Bahaullah and / or Mirza Hussayn Ali Noori as the One Whom God will Manifest? Or is it something that "you believe" as such.

Bahaullah making a claim as such does not really count. There were many people who made the claim of One Whom Allah will Manifest - its just that Bahaullah became more popular than the others.

for all you know, the Shiites may claim that their 12th Imam was the one whom the Bab was referring to - the Bab has acknowledged Mohammed ibnil Hasan as the 12th imam at multiple places (sometimes twice in the same book). Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was in occultation even then. How do you know that Bab was not referring to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan as the One Whom Allah Will Manifest. For all practical purposes, he could be referring to the 12th Shiite Imam and not Bahaullah. Incidentally, he refers to the 12th Shiite Imam by name, agnomen, title, genelogy everything - The Bab is very clear about Mohammed Ibnil Hasan.

So who will be the one who will judge who is the One Whom Allah will Manifest. Not you. Not me. Not Bahaullah. It will have to be the Bab. So lets hear it from him.

Regards,

choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Postby choogue » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:19 pm

for all you know, the Shiites may claim that their 12th Imam was the one whom the Bab was referring to - the Bab has acknowledged Mohammed ibnil Hasan as the 12th imam at multiple places (sometimes twice in the same book). Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was in occultation even then. How do you know that Bab was not referring to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan as the One Whom Allah Will Manifest. For all practical purposes, he could be referring to the 12th Shiite Imam and not Bahaullah. Incidentally, he refers to the 12th Shiite Imam by name, agnomen, title, genelogy everything - The Bab is very clear about Mohammed Ibnil Hasan.


Thats certainly an exceptional point. It never appeared to me to question whether the Bab was referring to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan.


Return to “Discussion”