A broad response to many of your interesting threads!

All research or scholarship questions
Fadl
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A broad response to many of your interesting threads!

Postby Fadl » Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:28 pm

I have been following many discussions here with some interest, but because I have been ‎so busy with school, I have been unable to participate. Also, many of the debates I have ‎read are too difficult for me to get into, because I feel that they contain some foundational problems which make it practically impossible for me to discuss as they are framed. At any rate, here are my comments and attempt to ‎contribute to several of the threads you have been discussing here! ‎

First of all, I would like to suggest that there is a fundamental flaw in many religious ‎debates that I want to bring to your consideration. I will try and frame it in a religious ‎framework, and then try to find its parallel outside the religious framework. This is ‎because I feel that outside the sphere of religious debate exist a higher degree of ‎accountability, and a greater degree of expectation to adhere to the principles of the ‎scientific method and logic.‎

In the religious context, the problem works like this: A new prophet comes, take for ‎example Jesus to the Jews, and the scholars of the old religious community reject the ‎teachings of the new prophet, primarily based on their astute learning and understanding ‎of religious traditions and texts. Thus it was "well established" according to the Torah, ‎that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies or requirements of the Messiah.‎

Similarly, as can be witnessed here on occasion, and other places in cyberspace, the ‎Manifestations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are routinely "refuted" and "proven false" by ‎learned Muslims and scholars based on Qur'an and Hadith, who feel satisfied with their ‎ability to demonstrate the "impossibility" and "falseness" of these holy beings' claims. ‎

Baha'u'llah revealed: "Say: O leaders of religion! Weigh not the Book of God with such ‎standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring Balance established amongst men. In this most perfect Balance whatsoever the peoples ‎and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight ‎should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it" ‎‎(The Kitab-i-Aqdas ‎‎56).‎

Logically this may be represented as diagram, rather like a Venn diagram, where a series ‎of rings exist one inside the other. Originating from the innermost ring and moving ‎towards the outward, it is seen that the outer ring contains the inner ring, and the inner ‎ring does not contain the properties of the outer ring, except to the degree that they ‎overlap. In other words, the outer ring contains all of the domains of the rings inside it, ‎but the inner rings contain only their own domains and share the properties of the outer ‎only to the degree that they overlap, while each outer ring possesses within it’s territory ‎the entirety of its own sphere as well as the domains of all the rings contained within it. ‎

Given this construct, it is illogical for the inner sphere to make bold and limiting ‎assertions about the outer ring which encompasses it, given the fact that its knowledge is ‎limited only to the properties with in it, (and the limited portion shared in common), and ‎does not possess within its own domain that which is necessary to define the properties ‎contained in the rings outside itself. ‎

Furthermore, each new Manifestation of God often represent a fundamental and ‎‎"paradigmical" shift in the order and understanding of things, and cannot be adequately ‎expressed in the old terminology in an exact and precise manner. This is phenomenon is ‎witnessed here on occasion by discussions such as: "was Ali Muhammad the Báb, or the ‎Mahdi, or the return of Christ?" Was Bahá'u'lláh the return of Imam Hussein, or the ‎return of Christ?" "Was 'Abdu'l-Bahá a 'prophet' or wasn't he?" While it is certainly ‎necessary for discussion-sake to understand these things in general terms, in reality it is ‎impossible to express them absolutely with old terminology such as "Mahdi", "prophet", ‎‎"messenger", and the like, which is why new terms come into being such as ‎‎"Manifestation", "Guardian", "Mystery of God", "Center of the Covenant", etc. These ‎new terms make discussions in a new paradigm wieldier and more precise. This is why ‎they become necessary. ‎

In the world of science, when new discoveries are made, and new theories and models ‎come into being, the new and more accurate theories and models are not bound to the ‎language and requirements of the old theories and models which they replaced. ‎Copernicus was not bound by Aristotelian models and theories, nor was Einstein bound ‎by those of Newton. On the contrary, each as they advanced and progressed, supplanted ‎at least to a large degree, the necessity of that which preceded it, although prior to the ‎new knowledge, the former may have seemed satisfactory and adequate. ‎

Similarly, the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is not bound by the understanding of the Hadith ‎and Qur'an current amongst Muslims. In fact, much of the proofs of Bahá'u'lláh's claims ‎cannot be found within religious texts at all. To see the absolute glory and overwhelming ‎evidence of the truth of the Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, one must on occasion set aside all ‎of the religious books and scholarly debates, and go take a look outside the window, and ‎take a walk in the day light. Even as the Supreme Manifestation revealed: ‎

‎"It behoveth thee to look with divine insight upon the things We have revealed and sent ‎unto thee and not towards the people and that which is current amongst them. They are in ‎this day like unto a blind man who, while moving in the sunshine, demandeth: Where is ‎the sun? Is it shining? He would deny and dispute the truth, and would not be of them ‎that perceive" (Tablets of Baha'u'llah 186).‎



Loren

choogue
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Postby choogue » Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:51 pm

Hi Loren,

First of all, thanks for your opnion.

Given this construct, it is illogical for the inner sphere to make bold and limiting ‎assertions about the outer ring which encompasses it, given the fact that its knowledge is ‎limited only to the properties with in it, (and the limited portion shared in common), and ‎does not possess within its own domain that which is necessary to define the properties ‎contained in the rings outside itself. ‎


It is illogical for the inner sphere to make assertions, however when one studies the basis of the outer ring, they are no longer assertions. Further investigation no longer limits ones knowledge to its own properties.

it is ‎impossible to express them absolutely with old terminology such as "Mahdi", "prophet", ‎‎"messenger", and the like, which is why new terms come into being such as ‎‎"Manifestation", "Guardian", "Mystery of God", "Center of the Covenant", etc. These ‎new terms make discussions in a new paradigm wieldier and more precise. This is why ‎they become necessary. ‎


Im not sure why it is impossible. How do we get to the new terminology? The basis why a Muslim would convert to Bahai is the prophecy of the Mahdi. The terminology are just words. The important aspect is the principles and basis of the faith. The terminology is some way irrelevant.

In the world of science, when new discoveries are made, and new theories and models ‎come into being, the new and more accurate theories and models are not bound to the ‎language and requirements of the old theories and models which they replaced. ‎Copernicus was not bound by Aristotelian models and theories, nor was Einstein bound ‎by those of Newton. On the contrary, each as they advanced and progressed, supplanted ‎at least to a large degree, the necessity of that which preceded it, although prior to the ‎new knowledge, the former may have seemed satisfactory and adequate. ‎


This is why they are only scientific theories, not facts. Religion isnt a theory. The message of God isnt a theory.
But using your example, one must prove that the new "theory" is a fact. Not merely on assumptions, otherwise many theories would arise where individuals will claim their theory is correct without evidence.

As a Muslim, currently the Bahai faith is a theory. The Ahmadiya faith is just a theory. To turn the theory into a fact, sufficient evidence needs to be presented. In terms of religion, a claim isnt enough and certainly changing the interpretations of the Quran is not applicable. This would only lead to various interpretations where anyone can make a claim. One would then need to consider that the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) was not able to understand the interpretations and therefore discredit the infallibility of the Prophet (Astigfirullah).

Similarly, the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is not bound by the understanding of the Hadith ‎and Qur'an


But it is for a Muslim. If the claim is that the Mahdi has appeared, one must investigate it, especially since the Prophet Muhammad has warned us of the false Prophets. If we do not consider the previous scripture, such as Islam, Muslims would be misguided and follow the various religions that claim the Mahdi has returned.

In fact, much of the proofs of Bahá'u'lláh's claims ‎cannot be found within religious texts at all.


Well this is where the problem lies. If it cannot be found within religious text, what makes it any different than other religions after Islam?

To see the absolute glory and overwhelming ‎evidence of the truth of the Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, one must on occasion set aside all ‎of the religious books and scholarly debates, and go take a look outside the window, and ‎take a walk in the day light.


And follow blindly? One must refer to the previous text to understand the claim of a Prophet/Messenger, otherwise you will see what is currently happening, that is, various "Mahdis" have risen.

Without further investigation and clarification on what the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) has taught us, especially in regards to the Quranic interpretations, the majority of people would be mislead.

The Prophet Muhammad(a.s) has explained the Quran for a reason. He explained about the Mahdi for a reason. Without referring to these explanations and teachings, anyone can attempt to interpret the Quran whichever way suits them best, hence, the many "Mahdi" revelations.

Regards
Abbas

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:26 am

abbas wrote:In terms of religion, a claim isnt enough and certainly changing the interpretations of the Quran is not applicable. This would only lead to various interpretations where anyone can make a claim. One would then need to consider that the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) was not able to understand the interpretations and therefore discredit the infallibility of the Prophet (Astigfirullah).


Wait. Just you Shi'as alone have many different schools of thought—and I'm not even talking other Muslims like the Sunnis or other sects. Each one of you thinks he has the "correct" interpretation or the correct way of thinking, and that the other one is wrong. There is a disunity of thought, because you don't have Interpreters or a divinely appointed governing body like Baha'is do.

Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. You asked about the Baha'i beliefs on homosexuality in another thread. In the Aqdas, Baha'u'llah only mentions boys. Now, compare the Aqdas to the Qur'an. I could contend that Baha'u'llah clearly is condemning sodomy with boys and not to homosexuality in general, and that His statement is so obvious that other people would interpret it their own way to "suit their needs" if they said the verse was a reference to homosexualiy in general. BUT, we know that Baha'u'llah appointed 'Abdu'l-Baha as the Infallible Interpreter, and then He passed on the "chain of command" to Shoghi Effendi, and thus the verse has been interpreted to be a prohibition against any form of homosexuality. Thus I cannot, based on the verse in the Aqdas, assert that Baha'u'llah did not condemn homosexuality, and still be a Baha'i.

Now take all that and apply it to the Koran. There are so many different interpretations of verses and there is no agreement because no one has been divinely designated to interpret the Koran. This, combined with the fact that the Koran says that some verses' meanings are obvious, and others aren't, adds even more confusion to the mix. (We believe though, that the Imams were Guardins of Islam—and again, you have the problem that certain Shi'as only will believe in some of the Imams—apart from the other causes of differences.)

Now, I think the verses that are very "clear" to many Muslims and the most controversial ones (like the "seal of the prophets" verse) are the ones being interpreted incorrectly and being misunderstood. Indeed, if Muhammad only meant that popular verses with a huge consensus and large amount of agreement weren't the ones with the hidden meanings, then that would only leave less popular and less influential ones, like the stories like about Moses or whatever—like some small fact about the story...but who cares? Those misinterpretations aren't really going to cause the confusion, it's the "biggies" that receive the most attention that are important and can make the difference of someone recognizing Baha'u'llah's Truth or not, for example (assuming He is the one foretold by Muhammad and the hadith).

So, a Muslim can accuse Baha'is of changing verse's meanings to suit their own needs, but that would be assuming that Muslims have a perfect or even semi-perfect understanding of the Koran. Remember, we can see in history that the majority are usually wrong. There is usually a Prophet who comes along with something so radical that most disbelieve in Him, beside the fact that many people of all religions just hang on to their Faiths merely because of tradition.

So we believe that Baha'u'llah is the one Muhammad prepared us for, and that Baha'u'llah's Interpretations of the Koran are Muhammad's interpretations. We have a whole book on the issue, and many other Writings. Baha'u'llah challenges many ideas, and that no doubt will certainly be one cause of opposition. Baha'u'llah's Faith is no less radical in the eyes of fallible, motal beings, than was Muhammad's Revelation. But it is the Day of Judgement we believe, and Baha'u'llah's Revelation is what is quickening the spiritually dead.

abbas wrote:
Similarly, the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is not bound by the understanding of the Hadith ?and Qur'an


But it is for a Muslim. If the claim is that the Mahdi has appeared, one must investigate it, especially since the Prophet Muhammad has warned us of the false Prophets. If we do not consider the previous scripture, such as Islam, Muslims would be misguided and follow the various religions that claim the Mahdi has returned.


Sometimes in Islam and Christianity I think there is a disproportionate amount of "false-prophetophobia," and not enough eagerness to investigate the claims of the people saying they're the Qa'im, for example, which the hadith say you should do. Of course, you are investigating so im not talking about you.

One thing about the Mahdi...can you find this out? Do any of these Mahdist sects claim that their Qa'im is the Revealer of a new Revelation? The way I would (of course it's just me) automatically rule out all those Mahdist sects is by this fact: these guys are buying into the "popular" (though uninformed in terms of hadith) Muslim belief that the Qa'im will merely "reform" Islam and return it to its previous glory. However, the hadith I read say that the Qa'im will bring new laws and a new revelation. So that could be one proof of their falsity, and I think that'd right off the bat rule out every single one of those Mahdist sects.

But I agree with you that it is important to study the claim of those professing to be the Mahdi. Are there any Mahdist sects that you think have convincing arguments?

abbas wrote:
To see the absolute glory and overwhelming ?evidence of the truth of the Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, one must on occasion set aside all ?of the religious books and scholarly debates, and go take a look outside the window, and ?take a walk in the day light.


And follow blindly? One must refer to the previous text to understand the claim of a Prophet/Messenger, otherwise you will see what is currently happening, that is, various "Mahdis" have risen.


Loren never said to follow blindly. Loren is just saying that proofs can only get you so far. Like I said recently in another thread, someone could seemingly "fulfill" all the prophesies but still be an imposture. You still have to read the Words and see if they stir your soul. It's like the Koran. You aren't going back and looking at Christian scripture all the time and debating to yourself whether Islam is fake or not, and not accepting the Koran until you learn all the Christian prophesies and "proofs." You read the Words of the Koran and you know they're of God. Same with the Baha'i Faith. Again, Loren is not saying to follow blindly, she's just saying that one has to use his mind and his heart and soul in his search for truth, that's all. I'm sure you don't have any objections if it's put that way.

abbas wrote: The Prophet Muhammad(a.s) has explained the Quran for a reason. He explained about the Mahdi for a reason. Without referring to these explanations and teachings, anyone can attempt to interpret the Quran whichever way suits them best, hence, the many "Mahdi" revelations.


I completely agree with that. I myself after intensely investigating came to the conclusion of the truth of the Baha'i Faith; I didn't just say I believe in Baha'u'llah because my family are Baha'is. I'm sure it's the same with you.

Take care,

BW

Baha'i Warrior
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Re: A broad response to many of your interesting threads!

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:02 am

Loren wrote:In the religious context, the problem works like this: A new prophet comes, take for ?example Jesus to the Jews, and the scholars of the old religious community reject the ?teachings of the new prophet, primarily based on their astute learning and understanding ?of religious traditions and texts. Thus it may be "well established" according to the Torah, ?that Jesus does not fulfill the prophecies or requirements of the Messiah.?

Similarly, as can be witnessed here on occasion, and other places in cyberspace, the ?Manifestations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are routinely "refuted" and "proven false" by ?learned Muslims and scholars based on Qur'an and Hadith, who feel satisfied with their ?ability to demonstrate the "impossibility" and "falseness" of these holy beings' claims. ?

Baha'u'llah revealed: "Say: O leaders of religion! Weigh not the Book of God with such ?standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring Balance established amongst men. In this most perfect Balance whatsoever the peoples ?and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight ?should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it" ? ?(The Kitab-i-Aqdas ??56).?


:thumbs: Very, very well stated. It couldn't have been said any clearer. Indeed, if only mankind could learn from his mistakes, and not repeat history...The Baha'i Writings point out this pattern in the clearest of terms, and even if one doesn't want to agree that Baha'u'llah is the Chosen One, then at least he can admit to the deep insight that Baha'u'llah possesses regarding past Dispensations.

choogue
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Postby choogue » Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:56 am

:roll:

Here we go again........

1. Bahais also have sects and orginated from a covenant breaker sect known as the Shaykhi.

2. The Infallible Prophet Muhammad(a.s) and the Ahlulbayt(a.s) were the interpreters of the Quran. The Authentic Hadith is now well known and no further interpretations required.

3. Changing a law and interpreting are two different things, but can fool someone to believe that it was an interpretation. Not pointing fingers. ;) Again, anyone can claim anything they want and say "but thats what he meant" :roll:

4. Many interpretations of the Quran. True. Bahai is just one other instance where the interpretations were changed from the true teachings of the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) and the Ahlulbayt(a.s).

5. Controversial verses such as the Seal of the Prophets, have been explained by the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) and the Ahlulbayt(a.s), which has been proven already. If you believe otherwise, please present Hadith from a SHIA source justifying your claim. (Remember, although you believe in the Shaykhi sect and other mystic Sufi's, the Hadith for them are irrelevant as they are our "covenant breakers") So please provide relevant Hadith.

6. Muslims can accuse Bahais of changing verses to suit themselves due to the fact that the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) and the Ahlulbayt(a.s) have already interpreted the Quran. Bahaullah's interpretations are completely different.

7. As you said, you have a whole book on the issue where Bahaullah claims his interpretations are that of Muhammad. Suprisingly enough, you cannot present one Hadith, except from the Mystics, Shaykhi, etc. But I can understand that since the origin of your faith lies with the Mystics.

8. The Day of Judgement is Bahaullah with no proof but a claim. Total disregard of the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) and the Ahlulbayts(a.s) teachings. (Again, only source are non-shia)

9. The Hadith which you read which claims the Mahdi will have a new revelation is from a mystic sect, which the Shaykhi followed their ideology and where the Bab continued their way of thinking. The challenge remains. Please provide an Authentic Shia Hadith which indicates the Mahdi will bring a new revelation.

10. Some of the Hadith which these other Mahdi sects are "buying" into are Authentic Hadith from the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) and the Ahlulbayt(a.s). Not fabricated Hadith from mystics and Shaykhis. Atleast they have used some Authentic Hadith, but still denied others to also suit themselves

11. Not one Mahdi sect has a convincing argument. Simply because the main prophecy where the Mahdi will bring peace and justice to this world during his lifetime has not been fulfilled by any Mahdi sect. Another clear indication is that most of the Mahdi sect seem to interpret the Quran in the same manner as each other, including the Bahai's.

12. The prophecies must be fulfilled. Ever since these claims of the Mahdi, the world has taken a turn for the worse. World Wars, oppression, low morals, increase in sin, etc. Peace and justice does not exist in the world, yet when the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) informs us that the Mahdi will rule this world for 9 years and bring peace and justice during HIS lifetime, you seem to interpret it totally different to the obvious teaching.

13. You claim you have intensely investigated? Good job, it should therefore be very simple for you to provide an Authentic Shia Hadith. Although im repeating myself and will obviously repeat it once you reply, however mystic, sufi, or other Hadith that are not Shia are irrelevant. I only require Shia Hadith.

Anyway, im sure this debate will continue for awhile and we will both repeat the same points as shown previously. :D

Regards
Abbas

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:49 am

abbas wrote::roll:

Here we go again........

1. Bahais also have sects and orginated from a covenant breaker sect known as the Shaykhi.


They were not covenant breakers we believe. You are free to believe what you want.

abbas wrote:2. The Infallible Prophet Muhammad(a.s) and the Ahlulbayt(a.s) were the interpreters of the Quran. The Authentic Hadith is now well known and no further interpretations required.


Okay, then ever time you tell me the meaning of a verse (like 33:44), give me the exact place where Muhammad talks about that verse. Just post what He says, then maybe you can give some of your thoughts about it.

abbas wrote:3. Changing a law and interpreting are two different things, but can fool someone to believe that it was an interpretation. Not pointing fingers. ;) Again, anyone can claim anything they want and say "but thats what he meant" :roll:


No they are the same thing. If you are interpreting a law, a writing, a book of poetry, the ingredients on a Butterfingers wrapper, you are still interpreting. That's the point. In some cases, however, it is worse to interpret and give the wrong response.

And again, your interpretation of koranic verses is fallible, just is ours—that is, without "divine backup." Again, post supporting hadith about the verse and then maybe I'll believe you (if I could find the source myself also, etc.)

abbas wrote:4. Many interpretations of the Quran. True. Bahai is just one other instance where the interpretations were changed from the true teachings of the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) and the Ahlulbayt(a.s).


You don't know if they were changed or not if you don't know what the real meanings are in the first place. The "popular Muslim belief" is meaningless because it doesn't mean that it is "true" just because it is "popular" as I have shown in the above post.

abbas wrote:5. Controversial verses such as the Seal of the Prophets, have been explained by the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) and the Ahlulbayt(a.s), which has been proven already. If you believe otherwise, please present Hadith from a SHIA source justifying your claim. (Remember, although you believe in the Shaykhi sect and other mystic Sufi's, the Hadith for them are irrelevant as they are our "covenant breakers") So please provide relevant Hadith.


We haven't deviated from Muhammad's interpretation, and Baha'u'llah provides an interpretation that we believe and makes sense.

abbas wrote:6. Muslims can accuse Bahais of changing verses to suit themselves due to the fact that the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) and the Ahlulbayt(a.s) have already interpreted the Quran. Bahaullah's interpretations are completely different.


Again you are only guessing. Not every single verse has been interpreted by them.

abbas wrote:7. As you said, you have a whole book on the issue where Bahaullah claims his interpretations are that of Muhammad. Suprisingly enough, you cannot present one Hadith, except from the Mystics, Shaykhi, etc. But I can understand that since the origin of your faith lies with the Mystics.


You are mistaken if you think that I only presented hadith from mystics or shakkhis.

abbas wrote:8. The Day of Judgement is Bahaullah with no proof but a claim. Total disregard of the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) and the Ahlulbayts(a.s) teachings. (Again, only source are non-shia)


No they don't, and you don't have proof (find me their explanation of 33:44 if you think that). And He presents His proofs, even though you can reject them.

abbas wrote:9. The Hadith which you read which claims the Mahdi will have a new revelation is from a mystic sect, which the Shaykhi followed their ideology and where the Bab continued their way of thinking. The challenge remains. Please provide an Authentic Shia Hadith which indicates the Mahdi will bring a new revelation.


Whether or not it is from a mystic sect (I don't think it is), there are Shi'as who believe in it. Just because you don't isn't our problem.

abbas wrote:10. Some of the Hadith which these other Mahdi sects are "buying" into are Authentic Hadith from the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) and the Ahlulbayt(a.s). Not fabricated Hadith from mystics and Shaykhis. Atleast they have used some Authentic Hadith, but still denied others to also suit themselves


You say they're fabricated, but we aren't going to believe you. Many other muslims believe in it.

abbas wrote:11. Not one Mahdi sect has a convincing argument. Simply because the main prophecy where the Mahdi will bring peace and justice to this world during his lifetime has not been fulfilled by any Mahdi sect. Another clear indication is that most of the Mahdi sect seem to interpret the Quran in the same manner as each other, including the Bahai's.


To us it's a convincing argument.

abbas wrote:12. The prophecies must be fulfilled. Ever since these claims of the Mahdi, the world has taken a turn for the worse. World Wars, oppression, low morals, increase in sin, etc. Peace and justice does not exist in the world, yet when the Prophet Muhammad(a.s) informs us that the Mahdi will rule this world for 9 years and bring peace and justice during HIS lifetime, you seem to interpret it totally different to the obvious teaching.


They have been fulfilled. Peace and justice is beginning to be fulfilled the writings state (we are in the "lesser peace" now). The Bab brought peace and justice, but that has nothing to do with others, the hadith say that there will be opposition and he'll be killed.

abbas wrote:13. You claim you have intensely investigated? Good job, it should therefore be very simple for you to provide an Authentic Shia Hadith. Although im repeating myself and will obviously repeat it once you reply, however mystic, sufi, or other Hadith that are not Shia are irrelevant. I only require Shia Hadith.


I have already. You are making things up again, not all the hadith i showed are from mystics, etc., like the sermon by Imam Ali #102 (not the sermon of the gulf one). Anyways, whatever hadith I have shown you you can say you don't believe in, but other muslims do. You are free to reject whatever you want.

abbas wrote:Anyway, im sure this debate will continue for awhile and we will both repeat the same points as shown previously. :D


My argument hasn't changed if that's what you mean.

Fadl
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Postby Fadl » Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:31 pm

Dear Abbas,‎

I wanted to respond to numerous flaws in your remarks, until I realized the futility in ‎doing so. It is clear that you are not interested in studying the Bahá'í religion, but only in ‎disputing with the Bahá'ís, and it is also clear that you feel assured of the truth of your ‎own faith. Like your faith, Bahá'í religion seeks to grow and advance itself, however ‎there are guidelines that we must adhere to in order to teach the religion not merely as ‎intelligent and intellectual people, but as people of faith. ‎

Among the teachings that restrain me, are: ‎

‎"The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing, even as the cup-bearer, ‎who proffereth not his cup till he findeth a seeker, and the lover who crieth not out from ‎the depths of his heart until he gazeth upon the beauty of his beloved"(The Persian ‎Hidden Words #36)‎

And:‎

‎"Of all men the most negligent is he that disputeth idly and seeketh to advance himself ‎over his brother. Say, O brethren! Let deeds, not words, be your adorning" (The Persian ‎Hidden Words #5).‎

And: ‎

‎"Make not your deeds as snares wherewith to entrap the object of your aspiration, and ‎deprive not yourselves of this Ultimate Objective for which have ever yearned all such as ‎have drawn nigh unto God" (The Kitab-i-Aqdas 31). ‎

And:‎

‎"If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, ‎share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and goodwill. If it be accepted, if it ‎fulfill its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto ‎himself, and beseech God to guide him" (Epistle to the Son of the Wolf 15).‎

As you can see Abbas, as an individual striving to walk the path of Bahá'u'lláh, engaging ‎in a debate with you, who are not in fact a seeker after any truth other than the one which ‎you feel you already possess, will serve no purpose, and will only violate the tenants of ‎my faith as I understand them to be. ‎

It may interest you to know that I spend a good deal of my time studying Islam, not only ‎because it is one of the directives of the Guardian of the Bahá'í faith, but also because my ‎academic specialization is The Middle East and Arabic. (I would be delighted if you ‎would share Shi'a resources here, since most of the resources available or Sunni.) While I ‎do enjoy studying Islam immensely, when I visit Islamic sites I consider myself a student ‎of a religion which differs from my own, and as a guest there. I have never felt inclined to ‎go into the message boards there and bring attention to my beliefs and engage in disputes. ‎I am curious, why to don't share a similar feeling when coming here as I do going there?‎
As you are no doubt aware, this forum is only a very small part of what is actually a vast ‎resource for the study of the Bahá'í religion. Why not avail yourself of these resources to ‎answer some of your questions, rather than peppering the board with questions that you ‎apparently believe the friends here have answered unsatisfactorily for you? ‎

Sometimes when I read your posts I wonder if you have it in mind that we already share ‎your belief in the Prophet, and the Imams, and the Qur'an, and to some extent the Hadith. ‎So if it is your objective to make us confess: "la ilaha ila allah wa muhammdun rasul ‎allah" we already have. In fact, were it not for Bahá'u'lláh, this might not be true, at least ‎for many of us. Wouldn't that be a much worse situation?‎

If you want to convert (or is it revert?) Bahá'ís to Islam, I have some humble suggestions. ‎Rather than trying to convince Bahá'ís that the Bahá'í truths are not truths at all, you ‎should show them that these truths also exist in your own religion, and in a quantitatively ‎and qualitatively greater measure. You should show how your religion is more effective ‎at explaining the meaning of life and the making sense of the age in which we live, and ‎how your path has a greater capacity for bringing peace, order, and salvation to humanity ‎than does this one. If you cannot do this, then no amount of arguing over the various ‎interpretations of Hadith or scripture will likely accomplish anything, and you will be just ‎as unsuccessful as are those Christians, who employ similar tactics as you do, to disprove ‎Islam.‎

If you ever become interested in the Bahá'í religion, Abbas, I will welcome free and open ‎discussion with you. If that never happens, then I am glad for you that you have now a ‎religion that is sufficient for you and provides you with what you need to draw near to ‎God and make sense out of life, and I don't wish to interfere with your good thing! ‎

Perhaps we can both agree to follow what God revealed in the Qur'an:‎

‎ "I worship not that which ye worship;‎
Nor worship ye that which I worship.‎
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.‎
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.‎
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion." (surat al-kafirun) ‎

I wish you well, and pray God will always be with you on your path, Abbas.‎

Loren ‎

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Postby Fadl » Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:50 pm

As usual, some great contributions here B.W.! Keep it up, because I always gain something from reading your posts.

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Postby Zazaban » Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:50 pm

Abbas is NOT here to convert Baha'is, he has shown a great eagerness to learn, and has a Baha'i girlfriend. I find it quite appalling of the intolerance of his beliefs. He should be able to come here just to learn without people trying to convert him (which I have gotten the impression people are doing.)
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.
~ Bahá'u'lláh

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:35 pm

Zazaban wrote:Abbas is NOT here to convert Baha'is, he has shown a great eagerness to learn, and has a Baha'i girlfriend. I find it quite appalling of the intolerance of his beliefs. He should be able to come here just to learn without people trying to convert him (which I have gotten the impression people are doing.)


Zazaban,

As of late it seems like you are actually being intolerant of the way Baha'is respond, in an unfair manner, especially given that the Baha'is are responding in a more thoughtful and courteous manner than Abbas has. Was Loren odiously accusing Abbas of "picking and choosing," was she rolling her eyes (using emoticons all over the place) at every single thing that he said, was she laughing at his remarks as if he was out of it and needed 10,000 mg of Thorazine? Why don't you reproach Abbas for continuing this pattern of scornfully ridiculing Baha'is, if you are truly unbiased?

I know you are trying to be a good moderator and doing what you think is proper, but I am also a moderator of this forum and I don't agree with you in this case. Of course, you did make a good judgement in locking the other thread, but in this case I see nothing wrong with Loren giving reasons why she doesn't want to idly dispute with Abbas, and showing how the conversation will go nowhere. And Baha'is who can see this pattern and point it out don't have "islamiphobia," in fact you should know we identify very closely with the Koran, Muhammad, and the Imams. But that doesn't mean we can accept their petty attacks on the Faith. Indeed, Baha'u'llah encourages us to defend His Faith against such an onslaught, though not in a rude and ridiculing manner (I will admit I'm not perfect in this regard either, and it is looked down upon to fight with anyone, even if we think we are right).

You say:

Zazaban wrote:Abbas is NOT here to convert Baha'is, he has shown a great eagerness to learn, and has a Baha'i girlfriend. I find it quite appalling of the intolerance of his beliefs. He should be able to come here just to learn without people trying to convert him (which I have gotten the impression people are doing.)


I could say I have a Muslim girlfriend, and say that she goes out every night drinking and having wild parties with other men, and that she is absolutely ignorant about Islam and thinks that a law in Islam is that you can't type your name backwards on a keyboard.

The point is, anyone on this forum can lie as pretty much everyone's anonymous (heck, to be fair, I could be lying), but that's not really the point and I am NOT Abbas he is lying (as I have no proof either way). My point is this: (1) Though we may be wrong, from all his posts it seems like all he wants to do is argue, as we have seen no proof of him showing genuine interest to learn from his past 173 posts; (2) He keeps bringing up this girlfriend of his who is a Baha'i and saying how uninformed she is of basic Baha'i teachings/principles (even creating a new thread about it), adding that she's teaches classes, etc. (he also says the Baha'i community there is ignorant). Why would he keep bringing that up unless he wanted to try to publicly make the Baha'is look bad on the forum?

Zazaban, you may be right about Abbas not trying to convert us, though Loren's position is also well taken, but either way he certainly does seem to be intent on proving us wrong by making us admit that our religion is fake and that we "pick and choose" hadith, which has no authority (for him, but he extends it to all Shi'as), and assign flawed interpretations to the koran, even though we have clearly shown him that there is no agreement among even Shi'as over the meanings of koranic verses. There is so much disunity of thought in Shi'asm that he cannot logically say we have the wrong interpretation, and he cannot say the hadith we use is invalid because, again, there are Shi'as and other Muslims who believe in it.

There is nothing against debating in the Baha'i Faith, as long as it doesn't resort to name calling and being rude. Though Loren correctly points to the futility of these "debates," I still feel inclined to respond (at least currently—I have felt otherwise before) since he is posting on a public forum which many people visit—including potential seekers. The seekers should be able to read his posts, and the Baha'i response, and judge for themselves if, like Loren said, Abbas is just trying to fight and isn't using good logic, or if we are doing that, or whatever. To Loren it was immediately apparent, to others it maybe isn't. But we need to give them both perspectives.

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Re: A broad response to many of your interesting threads!

Postby uwoHXaCnf » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:14 am

Loren wrote:I have been following many discussions here with some interest, but because I have been ‎so busy with school, I have been unable to participate. Also, many of the debates I have ‎read are too difficult for me to get into, because I feel that they contain some foundational problems which make it practically impossible for me to discuss as they are framed. At any rate, here are my comments and attempt to ‎contribute to several of the threads you have been discussing here! ‎

First of all, I would like to suggest that there is a fundamental flaw in many religious ‎debates that I want to bring to your consideration. I will try and frame it in a religious ‎framework, and then try to find its parallel outside the religious framework. This is ‎because I feel that outside the sphere of religious debate exist a higher degree of ‎accountability, and a greater degree of expectation to adhere to the principles of the ‎scientific method and logic.‎

In the religious context, the problem works like this: A new prophet comes, take for ‎example Jesus to the Jews, and the scholars of the old religious community reject the ‎teachings of the new prophet, primarily based on their astute learning and understanding ‎of religious traditions and texts. Thus it was "well established" according to the Torah, ‎that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies or requirements of the Messiah.‎

Similarly, as can be witnessed here on occasion, and other places in cyberspace, the ‎Manifestations of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are routinely "refuted" and "proven false" by ‎learned Muslims and scholars based on Qur'an and Hadith, who feel satisfied with their ‎ability to demonstrate the "impossibility" and "falseness" of these holy beings' claims. ‎

Baha'u'llah revealed: "Say: O leaders of religion! Weigh not the Book of God with such ‎standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring Balance established amongst men. In this most perfect Balance whatsoever the peoples ‎and kindreds of the earth possess must be weighed, while the measure of its weight ‎should be tested according to its own standard, did ye but know it" ‎‎(The Kitab-i-Aqdas ‎‎56).‎

Logically this may be represented as diagram, rather like a Venn diagram, where a series ‎of rings exist one inside the other. Originating from the innermost ring and moving ‎towards the outward, it is seen that the outer ring contains the inner ring, and the inner ‎ring does not contain the properties of the outer ring, except to the degree that they ‎overlap. In other words, the outer ring contains all of the domains of the rings inside it, ‎but the inner rings contain only their own domains and share the properties of the outer ‎only to the degree that they overlap, while each outer ring possesses within it’s territory ‎the entirety of its own sphere as well as the domains of all the rings contained within it. ‎

Given this construct, it is illogical for the inner sphere to make bold and limiting ‎assertions about the outer ring which encompasses it, given the fact that its knowledge is ‎limited only to the properties with in it, (and the limited portion shared in common), and ‎does not possess within its own domain that which is necessary to define the properties ‎contained in the rings outside itself. ‎

Furthermore, each new Manifestation of God often represent a fundamental and ‎‎"paradigmical" shift in the order and understanding of things, and cannot be adequately ‎expressed in the old terminology in an exact and precise manner. This is phenomenon is ‎witnessed here on occasion by discussions such as: "was Ali Muhammad the Báb, or the ‎Mahdi, or the return of Christ?" Was Bahá'u'lláh the return of Imam Hussein, or the ‎return of Christ?" "Was 'Abdu'l-Bahá a 'prophet' or wasn't he?" While it is certainly ‎necessary for discussion-sake to understand these things in general terms, in reality it is ‎impossible to express them absolutely with old terminology such as "Mahdi", "prophet", ‎‎"messenger", and the like, which is why new terms come into being such as ‎‎"Manifestation", "Guardian", "Mystery of God", "Center of the Covenant", etc. These ‎new terms make discussions in a new paradigm wieldier and more precise. This is why ‎they become necessary. ‎

In the world of science, when new discoveries are made, and new theories and models ‎come into being, the new and more accurate theories and models are not bound to the ‎language and requirements of the old theories and models which they replaced. ‎Copernicus was not bound by Aristotelian models and theories, nor was Einstein bound ‎by those of Newton. On the contrary, each as they advanced and progressed, supplanted ‎at least to a large degree, the necessity of that which preceded it, although prior to the ‎new knowledge, the former may have seemed satisfactory and adequate. ‎

Similarly, the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is not bound by the understanding of the Hadith ‎and Qur'an current amongst Muslims. In fact, much of the proofs of Bahá'u'lláh's claims ‎cannot be found within religious texts at all. To see the absolute glory and overwhelming ‎evidence of the truth of the Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, one must on occasion set aside all ‎of the religious books and scholarly debates, and go take a look outside the window, and ‎take a walk in the day light. Even as the Supreme Manifestation revealed: ‎

‎"It behoveth thee to look with divine insight upon the things We have revealed and sent ‎unto thee and not towards the people and that which is current amongst them. They are in ‎this day like unto a blind man who, while moving in the sunshine, demandeth: Where is ‎the sun? Is it shining? He would deny and dispute the truth, and would not be of them ‎that perceive" (Tablets of Baha'u'llah 186).‎

Loren


Dear Loren:

I really could not make out what you wanted to say from your post. I apologise for being "slow" on the uptake, but what exactly are you trying to tell us?

Are you trying to tell us that Muslims should accept the Bab and Bahaullah on the basis of their words only? That the Quran and the traditions are of no use to establish the veracity of a new Faith? Is that really what you are telling us? If yes, then this entire discussion is futile.

But I know that it is not the case. The Bahais use the Quran, they try to use traditions to establish that the Bab was the Mahdi, that there would be a new revelation after Bahaullah - they do so, albeit selectively. And that is where the problem arises.

Muslims encourage the use of Quran and traditions to prove anything, but we ourselves weigh the words of the Quran in the light of traditions and vice versa. We do not rely upon our own interpretations for the Quran. We rely upon the words of the Prophet or the Holy Imams who succeeded him to understand the Quran, for in our belief, they were authorised to do so. Ordinary mortals like myself have no understanding of Quran and traditions except for what came from the Infallibles.

Needless to say, I am speaking from a Shiite point of view. For us, the Mahdi represents the ultimate peak of Islam - his return means the completion of all the prophecies of Islam and the promises made to Muslims by Allah. Traditions inform us that one who dies without recognising the Imam of his age, dies the death of ignorance.

So if the Bab is the Mahdi, as the Bahais claim, it is important that we recognise him and follow him. Right? But that recognition is not to be a superficial recognition. We have a rich source of the Quran and the traditions to know enough about the Mahdi. Conservatively speaking there would be atleast 1,000 traditions on the Mahdi. There traditions were not narrated in vain. it was done so that people like myself can differentiate between right and wrong at the time when any person, including the "True" Mahdi makes his claim.

So all in all, we must try and establish first that the Bab is the Mahdi. And we must do so from an Islamic point of view. If the Bahai Faith came out of Islam and is meant to be the dispensation after Islam, then it must be established from Islamic sources. That probably where other readers like Abbas are coming from.

Finally, unlike the scientists who established new theories, the prophets of Allah did not change the fundamentals of religion. All the prophets accespted by Islam, taught the same thing, Allah is One, Prophets are sent by Allah, Prophets are infallible, there is a physical Day of Judgement etc. No prophet ever remotely diverted from the fundamentals of religion which is Islam.

Except the Bab and Bahaullah.

No issues with that. But we need to understand why. And we need to start someplace. And I feel that the Bab is a good place to start.

Is the Bab the Mahdi of Islam? I would love to hear the Bahai viewpoint on this.

I apologise for the long post. i was not meant to be when I started.

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Postby Zazaban » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:23 am

Baha'i Warrior, my post was only aimed at the claim that Abbas was trying to convert us. To be fair, I think both he and you are being a little bit silly and need to cool off. Your debates are swallowing up the entire forum. :-P

I don't see anybody scornfully ridiculing Baha'is, he simply does not believe in it, and I don't see much beyond that. If he has to state his beliefs in a debate so be it. It's not like he's going around attacking the Baha'i Faith, most of what he says has been in response to you.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh

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Postby choogue » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:32 am

Imran and Zazaban,

I am glad you two understand where i am coming from. You both place very important points and i thankyou for that.

Zazaban,

It's not like he's going around attacking the Baha'i Faith, most of what he says has been in response to you.


Thankyou for pointing out the obvious. I appreciate it. As a moderator, i respect your unbiased decisions and if you ever need to enforce actions regarding my behaviour, please do so. I will also try and tone it down a bit. :oops:

Abbas is NOT here to convert Baha'is, he has shown a great eagerness to learn, and has a Baha'i girlfriend. I find it quite appalling of the intolerance of his beliefs. He should be able to come here just to learn without people trying to convert him (which I have gotten the impression people are doing.)


Thankyou for understanding my position. I appreciate your honest opinion. Although BW and Loren have teamed up and made assumptions on my intentions, im glad you understand how important it is to learn, especially in an objective manner.

Imran,

You make very good points.

But I know that it is not the case. The Bahais use the Quran, they try to use traditions to establish that the Bab was the Mahdi, that there would be a new revelation after Bahaullah - they do so, albeit selectively. And that is where the problem arises.


My thoughts exactly. Im glad other people on this forum are able to see this.

So all in all, we must try and establish first that the Bab is the Mahdi. And we must do so from an Islamic point of view. If the Bahai Faith came out of Islam and is meant to be the dispensation after Islam, then it must be established from Islamic sources. That probably where other readers like Abbas are coming from.


Well said! We can not simply rely on interpretations and hadith provided only from Bahai sources. The Authentic Islamic sources are required. Great point.

I hope Loran and BW are able to comprehend your post, Imran.

BW and Loren,

:eek: :eek: :eek:

I am seriously shocked and appalled with your accusations and assumptions. Everyone has a right to an opinion, but accusing me without facts? Cmon guys! Where is the love? ;-)

Many accusations have been raised such as:

- Flawed remarks
- Not interested in studying the Bahai Faith
- Attempting to convert the Bahai's to Islam <------ :lol: I must admit, this ones the best! (thanks for the laugh Loren)
- Not acting in a thoughtful and courteous manner
- Attacking the Bahai faith
- LYING
- Just want to argue
- Making the Bahai's admit their religion is fake. <------ thats a crack up :lol: Well done BW.
- Flawed interpretations and not using good logic :lol:
- Not providing Hadith to prove what i say.

The reason i came here was simple. My gf has told me the Mahdi has returned and he has chosen the Bahai faith to spread the message. So, like any Muslim, the investigation of the truth is necessary (As Imran has very clearly explained).

If i was trying to convert you, i would be supplying you with Hadith. But why would i when i came to learn, NOT try and educate you! :roll:

But hey, i guess you require someone who believes without understanding. I guess you need someone who takes any interpretation you provide from your own assumptions and interpretations from Bahai, Sufi, Shaykhi, etc sources. Unfortunately, i am not one that is able to believe unless it is from my own source. And yes, ive heard it multiple times before., "i have provided Shia sources". *sigh* if only that can be backed by evidence.

Anyway, pointless refuting your arguments again. If you need to hear my claims, refer to the previous points.

Loren and BW, dont worry, i forgive you. I dont hold grudges and can understand your frustration. I would also be frustrated if placed in your position. :oops:

If you want to provide proofs, please open seperate threads for each point. Makes it easier to refer to for the readers. Thanks.

***Smartarse comment removed out of good faith and show of peace***

Regards
Abbas

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Postby Dorumerosaer » Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:31 am

Baha'u'llah quotes from Shiah traditions about a new Revelation in the Book of Certitude:

In the "Avalim," an authoritative and well-known book, it is recorded: "A Youth from Bani-Hashim shall be made manifest, Who will reveal a new Book and promulgate a new law;" then follow these words: "Most of His enemies will be the divines." In another passage, it is related of Sadiq, son of Muhammad, that he spoke the following: "There shall appear a Youth from Bani-Hashim, Who will bid the people plight fealty unto Him. His Book will be a new Book, unto which He shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is His Revelation unto the Arab. If ye hear about Him, hasten unto Him." How well have they followed the directions of the Imams of the Faith and Lamps of certitude! Although it is clearly stated: "Were ye to hear that a Youth from Bani-Hashim hath appeared, summoning the people unto a new and Divine Book, and to new and Divine laws, hasten unto Him," yet have they all declared that Lord of being an infidel, and pronounced Him a heretic. They hastened not unto that Hashimite Light, that divine Manifestation, except with drawn swords, and hearts filled with malice. Moreover, observe how explicitly the enmity of the divines hath been mentioned in the books. Notwithstanding all these evident and significant traditions, all these unmistakable and undisputed allusions, the people have rejected the immaculate Essence of knowledge and of holy utterance, and have turned unto the exponents of rebellion and error. Despite these recorded traditions and revealed utterances, they speak only that which is prompted by their own selfish desires. And should the Essence of Truth reveal that which is contrary to their inclinations and desires, they will straightway denounce Him as an infidel, and will protest saying: "This is contrary to the sayings of the Imams of the Faith and of the resplendent lights. No such thing hath been provided by our inviolable Law." Even so in this day such worthless statements have been and are being made by these poor mortals.

And now, consider this other tradition, and observe how all these things have been foretold. In "Arba'in" it is recorded: "Out of Bani-Hashim there shall come forth a Youth Who shall reveal new laws. He shall summon the people unto Him, but none will heed His call. Most of His enemies will be the divines. His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: 'This is contrary to that which hath been handed down unto us by the Imams of the Faith.'"
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 241-243)

There are others:

In particular the Volumes which were known as Jild e Seezdah [the 13th Volume ] and which had all the hadith relating to the 12th Imam =Mahdi=Qa’im are now all on the net. This Volume is quoted more than any other volume in Mirza Abu’l-Fad.l’s books…

This volume is now Volumes 51, 52, and 53 and they are all on the net

http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... index.html

http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... index.html

http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... index.html [containing the Mufad.d.al hadith]

This is the reference quoted by Baha'u'llah and it is now on the Net:

In the "Bihar" it is recorded: "In our Qa'im there shall be four signs from four Prophets, Moses, Jesus, Joseph, and Muhammad. The sign from Moses, is fear and expectation; from Jesus, that which was spoken of Him; from Joseph, imprisonment and dissimulation; from Muhammad, the revelation of a Book similar to the Qur'an." Notwithstanding such a conclusive tradition, which in such unmistakable language hath foreshadowed the happenings of the present day, none hath been found to heed its prophecy, and methinks none will do so in the future, except him whom thy Lord willeth. "God indeed shall make whom He will to hearken, but We shall not make those who are in their graves to hearken."
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 254-255)

The Bihar starts from here

http://al-shia.com/cgi-bin/ara-library/hadith.pl?n_0


http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... 2/a19.html

end of page followed by next page

http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... 2/a20.html

and again famously the Jabir Hadith

http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... 2/a15.html

Even as it hath been recorded in the "Kafi," in the tradition of Jabir, in the "Tablet of Fatimih," concerning the character of the Qa'im: "He shall manifest the perfection of Moses, the splendour of Jesus, and the patience of Job. His chosen ones shall be abased in His day. Their heads shall be offered as presents even as the heads of the Turks and the Daylamites. They shall be slain and burnt. Fear shall seize them; dismay and alarm shall strike terror into their hearts. The earth shall be dyed with their blood. Their womenfolk shall bewail and lament. These indeed are my friends!" Consider, not a single letter of this tradition hath remained unfulfilled.
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 245)

59 - أقول : قد مضى بأسانيد في خبر اللوح : ثم اكمل ذلك بابنه رحمة للعالمين عليه كمال موسى ، وبهاء عيسى ، وصبر أيوب ، سيذل أوليائي في زمانه ، ويتهادون رؤوسهم كما يتهادى رؤوس الترك والديلم ، فيقتلون ويحرقون ، ويكونون خائفين مرعوبين وجلين ، تصبغ الارض بدمائهم ، ويفشوالويل والرنين في نسائهم ، اولئك أوليائي حقا ، بهم أرفع كل فتنة عمياء حندس ، وبهم أكشف الزلازل ، وأدفع الآصار والاغلال اولئك عليهم صلوات من ربهم ورحمة واولئك هم المهتدون ( 2 ) .



عن المفضل بن زرارة ، عن المفضل بن عمر قال : قال أبوعبدالله عليه السلام : من دان الله بغيرسماع من عالم صادق ألزمه الله التيه إلى الفناء ، ومن ادعى سماعا من غير الباب الذي فتحه الله لخلقه فهو مشرك ، وذلك الباب هو الامين المأمون على سرالله المكنون . ( 3 ) نى : الكليني ، عن بعض رجاله ، عن عبدالعظيم الحسني ، عن مالك بن عامر ، عن المفضل مثله .



http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... a7.html#t8

section 105

Behar ul anwAr [Bih.Ar]

Brent

choogue
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Postby choogue » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:19 am

Thankyou for your input Brent.

The Avalim's authenticity has already been discussed in previous threads so unfortunately as a Muslim, i cannot refer to this Hadith. Much appreciated though.

Regarding the Hadith from Al-Shia.com. I am very grateful for your understanding of the importance of Hadith from a Shia source. Unfortunately i am unable to read Arabic. Nevertheless, i thankyou for being the first person to provide an Authentic source.

Hopefully i will find someone who is able to translate it for me.

Again, much appreciated.

Regards
Abbas

Zazaban
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Location: Canada

Postby Zazaban » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:48 am

Here's my crappy translation :-P

59 - says: Passed [b'asaanyd] in news of the board: Then complete that in his son mercy for the scientists on him Kamal Moussa, and Bahaa Issa, and aloe of Ayoub, will degrade ['awlyaay'y] in his time, and their heads exchange gifts just as heads of the Turks exchange gifts [waaldylm], so kills and burns, and is afraid [mre'wbyn] and became clear, the land dyes [bdmaay'hm], [wyfshwaalwyl] and the ringing in [nsaay'hm], those ['awlyaay'y] truth, in worry high of all seduction blind dark night, and in worry the uncovering earthquakes, and defensive [aalEESaar] and the handcuffs those on them prayers from suggest doubt them and mercy and those their [aalmhtdwn] (2).



About favorite Bin [zraart], about favorite Bin age said: Said ['abwe'bdaallh] peace be upon him: From Dan Allah [bGyrsmaae'] from truthful scientist obligates him Allah the pride to the yard, and blessing claimed hearing from other than the door who opened him Allah for character his so he is polytheist, and your lowness the door he the secure guardian on [sraallh] [aalmknwn]. (3) [nY]: [aalklyny], about some his men, about good Abdul-Athim, about full owner of coffee, about favorite his identicals.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.

~ Bahá'u'lláh

uwoHXaCnf
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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:01 am

pilgrimbrent wrote:Baha'u'llah quotes from Shiah traditions about a new Revelation in the Book of Certitude:

In the "Avalim," an authoritative and well-known book, it is recorded: "A Youth from Bani-Hashim shall be made manifest, Who will reveal a new Book and promulgate a new law;" then follow these words: "Most of His enemies will be the divines." In another passage, it is related of Sadiq, son of Muhammad, that he spoke the following: "There shall appear a Youth from Bani-Hashim, Who will bid the people plight fealty unto Him. His Book will be a new Book, unto which He shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is His Revelation unto the Arab. If ye hear about Him, hasten unto Him." How well have they followed the directions of the Imams of the Faith and Lamps of certitude! Although it is clearly stated: "Were ye to hear that a Youth from Bani-Hashim hath appeared, summoning the people unto a new and Divine Book, and to new and Divine laws, hasten unto Him," yet have they all declared that Lord of being an infidel, and pronounced Him a heretic. They hastened not unto that Hashimite Light, that divine Manifestation, except with drawn swords, and hearts filled with malice. Moreover, observe how explicitly the enmity of the divines hath been mentioned in the books. Notwithstanding all these evident and significant traditions, all these unmistakable and undisputed allusions, the people have rejected the immaculate Essence of knowledge and of holy utterance, and have turned unto the exponents of rebellion and error. Despite these recorded traditions and revealed utterances, they speak only that which is prompted by their own selfish desires. And should the Essence of Truth reveal that which is contrary to their inclinations and desires, they will straightway denounce Him as an infidel, and will protest saying: "This is contrary to the sayings of the Imams of the Faith and of the resplendent lights. No such thing hath been provided by our inviolable Law." Even so in this day such worthless statements have been and are being made by these poor mortals.

And now, consider this other tradition, and observe how all these things have been foretold. In "Arba'in" it is recorded: "Out of Bani-Hashim there shall come forth a Youth Who shall reveal new laws. He shall summon the people unto Him, but none will heed His call. Most of His enemies will be the divines. His bidding they will not obey, but will protest saying: 'This is contrary to that which hath been handed down unto us by the Imams of the Faith.'"
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 241-243)

There are others:

In particular the Volumes which were known as Jild e Seezdah [the 13th Volume ] and which had all the hadith relating to the 12th Imam =Mahdi=Qa’im are now all on the net. This Volume is quoted more than any other volume in Mirza Abu’l-Fad.l’s books…

This volume is now Volumes 51, 52, and 53 and they are all on the net

http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... index.html

http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... index.html

http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... index.html [containing the Mufad.d.al hadith]

This is the reference quoted by Baha'u'llah and it is now on the Net:

In the "Bihar" it is recorded: "In our Qa'im there shall be four signs from four Prophets, Moses, Jesus, Joseph, and Muhammad. The sign from Moses, is fear and expectation; from Jesus, that which was spoken of Him; from Joseph, imprisonment and dissimulation; from Muhammad, the revelation of a Book similar to the Qur'an." Notwithstanding such a conclusive tradition, which in such unmistakable language hath foreshadowed the happenings of the present day, none hath been found to heed its prophecy, and methinks none will do so in the future, except him whom thy Lord willeth. "God indeed shall make whom He will to hearken, but We shall not make those who are in their graves to hearken."
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 254-255)

The Bihar starts from here

http://al-shia.com/cgi-bin/ara-library/hadith.pl?n_0


http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... 2/a19.html

end of page followed by next page

http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... 2/a20.html

and again famously the Jabir Hadith

http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... 2/a15.html

Even as it hath been recorded in the "Kafi," in the tradition of Jabir, in the "Tablet of Fatimih," concerning the character of the Qa'im: "He shall manifest the perfection of Moses, the splendour of Jesus, and the patience of Job. His chosen ones shall be abased in His day. Their heads shall be offered as presents even as the heads of the Turks and the Daylamites. They shall be slain and burnt. Fear shall seize them; dismay and alarm shall strike terror into their hearts. The earth shall be dyed with their blood. Their womenfolk shall bewail and lament. These indeed are my friends!" Consider, not a single letter of this tradition hath remained unfulfilled.
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 245)

59 - أقول : قد مضى بأسانيد في خبر اللوح : ثم اكمل ذلك بابنه رحمة للعالمين عليه كمال موسى ، وبهاء عيسى ، وصبر أيوب ، سيذل أوليائي في زمانه ، ويتهادون رؤوسهم كما يتهادى رؤوس الترك والديلم ، فيقتلون ويحرقون ، ويكونون خائفين مرعوبين وجلين ، تصبغ الارض بدمائهم ، ويفشوالويل والرنين في نسائهم ، اولئك أوليائي حقا ، بهم أرفع كل فتنة عمياء حندس ، وبهم أكشف الزلازل ، وأدفع الآصار والاغلال اولئك عليهم صلوات من ربهم ورحمة واولئك هم المهتدون ( 2 ) .



عن المفضل بن زرارة ، عن المفضل بن عمر قال : قال أبوعبدالله عليه السلام : من دان الله بغيرسماع من عالم صادق ألزمه الله التيه إلى الفناء ، ومن ادعى سماعا من غير الباب الذي فتحه الله لخلقه فهو مشرك ، وذلك الباب هو الامين المأمون على سرالله المكنون . ( 3 ) نى : الكليني ، عن بعض رجاله ، عن عبدالعظيم الحسني ، عن مالك بن عامر ، عن المفضل مثله .



http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar ... a7.html#t8

section 105

Behar ul anwAr [Bih.Ar]

Brent


Dear Brent:

Many thanks for all the info. Could you give me some background about Avalim and Arbain and what is the relevant page numbers for the same. I cam then hunt it up and recheck the translation from the source language.

Also, you have made some points from Behar. You have quoted a tradition without giving a reference. Could you please send me the exact page number. Searching an entire volume for one tradition can be painful. You can ease the pain by giving the reference please.

Regards,


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