Manifestion Explained

All research or scholarship questions
choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Manifestion Explained

Postby choogue » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:45 pm

Hi All,

Im hoping someone can clearly explain the meaning of "Manifestation Of God".

Although this has been (unsatisfactorily) explained in previous posts, i would appreciate if i could receive responses from educated Bahai's such as Brett, Brent, Argos, etc (no offence intended to anyone else, however feel free to post your explanations)

Previously my comprehension of a Manifestation of God is that God materialised Himself into the form of Bahaullah. (astigfirullah)

Also from my understanding of previous posts, Bahaullah would not be referred to a Prophet or Messenger but only a Manifestation of God.

Thanks in advance
Abbas

Zazaban
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:16 pm
Location: Canada

Postby Zazaban » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:13 pm

Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.
~ Bahá'u'lláh

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Re: Manifestion Explained

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:40 pm

Good picks, Zazaban.

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Re: Manifestion Explained

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:44 pm

abbas wrote:Also from my understanding of previous posts, Bahaullah would not be referred to a Prophet or Messenger but only a Manifestation of God.


Baha'u'llah is still a Prophet and a Messenger. If someone is a M.D., that doesn't mean that he's not a high school and college graduate, for example.

Baha'u'llah's station is much higher than that of the previous Prophets though, since He is the Sender of the Messengers. Baha'u'llah sent Muhammad, among Others.

Also, from one of the links Zazaban posted:

    According to the Bahá'í writings, the manifestation of God is not an incarnation of God, as the transcendent Godhead can never incarnate itself in a mere mortal frame. But neither is the manifestation of God an ordinary, sinful mortal. He acts as a pure mirror to reflect the attributed of the Deity into this temporal plane. The term "manifestation of God" is not the only name the Bahá'í scriptures apply to this figure. They refer to him as prophet-messenger, prophet endowed with constancy, Primal Will, Word of God, Universal Intellect, and Primal Point.

choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Postby choogue » Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:26 am

So term Manifestation is basically another word for a Prophet?

Ok i just saw this....

Baha'u'llah's station is much higher than that of the previous Prophets though, since He is the Sender of the Messengers. Baha'u'llah sent Muhammad, among Others.


So he is higher than a Prophet because he sent Muhammad(a.s)?So it wasnt Allah(swt)?

choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Postby choogue » Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:29 am

http://bahai-library.org/articles/manifestation.html
http://info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-3.html



Thanks Zazaban. Ill have a read.

Regards
Abbas

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:39 pm

abbas wrote:So term Manifestation is basically another word for a Prophet?


No. See below. (Also read Zazaban's links first.)

abbas wrote:So he is higher than a Prophet because he sent Muhammad(a.s)?So it wasnt Allah(swt)?


God sends the Messengers through the intermediary of Baha'u'llah. (At least that's what come to mind right now [any Baha'is following this thread, please feel free to add].)

Basically, Baha'u'llah explains that "the Bearers of the Trust of God" each and all proclaim the one true Faith of God, and in this way they are the same. And, one of the ways in which they differ, is that each is entrusted with a different Revelation (because as mankind's spiritual capacity grows, he needs newer spiritual teachings). Here is where Baha'u'llah talks about the distinction: http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/gwb/022.html. When you study it, if you understand what Baha'u'llah is saying, it will—among others—clear up the issue of the "seal of the prophets" verse, because of the unity that all the Manifestations share. "And were they all to proclaim, 'I am the Seal of the Prophets,' they, verily, utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt."

Hope that helps.

choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Postby choogue » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:03 am

God sends the Messengers through the intermediary of Baha'u'llah. (At least that's what come to mind right now [any Baha'is following this thread, please feel free to add].)


Can other Bahais please add their thoughts on this? Thanks

Abbas

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:51 pm

abbas wrote:
God sends the Messengers through the intermediary of Baha'u'llah. (At least that's what come to mind right now [any Baha'is following this thread, please feel free to add].)


Can other Bahais please add their thoughts on this? Thanks

Abbas


Actually, I think most Baha'is don't know about that. In fact, if you search for the topic on google, you will find a dearth of hits on the subject.

Here is something I could find from an article called "Unique Eschatological Interface, A Baha'u'llah and Cross-Cultural Messianism":

    Relative to past prophets, Bahá’u’lláh designates Muhammad as the “Seal of the Messengers,” the Báb as the “King of the Messengers” (sultán al-rusúl), and refers to himself as the “Sender of the Messengers” (mursil al-rusul). Since all past prophets were sent to progressively prepare the world for its eventual unity, the spirit which propels mankind toward its own unification is the same spirit that has empowered messengers of the past to fulfill their preparatory roles.

    (Source: http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?file=buck_eschatologica_interface_messianism)

If you are interested, I know it is talked about in the book Paradise and Paradigm by the same author, but I don't have access to the book at the moment. Let's just say for now that God sends the Messengers, which He does. If you read Baha'u'llah's arguments from Gleanings, He shows how the same thing regarding the spiritual stations of holy Persons can be stated in different ways.

Actually, I think this distracts from your original question, which was,

Im hoping someone can clearly explain the meaning of "Manifestation Of God".


Has this question been answered to your satisfaction and did you read the posted links? Is there any information in them that you would like clarified? Please let us know.

—BW

choogue
Posts: 0
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:54 am

Postby choogue » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:53 pm

Actually, I think most Baha'is don't know about that. In fact, if you search for the topic on google, you will find a dearth of hits on the subject.


Really??? Wouldnt that be an important aspect for the Bahai's to know? What is the ruling of the UHJ?

Is it only Christopher Buck that makes this assertion?

I think this is why i am getting confused about the whole Manifestation concept. Sending previous Prophets but not God.

Id really like to hear other views on this topic.

Regards
Abbas

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:09 pm

abbas wrote:
Actually, I think most Baha'is don't know about that. In fact, if you search for the topic on google, you will find a dearth of hits on the subject.


Really??? Wouldnt that be an important aspect for the Bahai's to know? What is the ruling of the UHJ?


No, I don't think it's a big deal at all—I just mentioned it in passing. Why would the UHJ "rule" on something like that?

abbas wrote:Is it only Christopher Buck that makes this assertion?


If you read his book, I'm pretty sure he cites the Tablet (probably untranslated) where Baha'u'llah designates Himself as the Sender of the Messengers.

abbas wrote:I think this is why i am getting confused about the whole Manifestation concept. Sending previous Prophets but not God.


I don't get what you mean. What is confusing to you about the concept of the Manifestation of God? Again, the Manifestation is not God incarnate, because God is a spiritual being that cannot be incarnated. A Manifestation manifests all the divine attributes and perfections of God in the material world:

    Thus, viewed from the standpoint of their oneness and sublime detachment, the attributes of Godhead, Divinity, Supreme Singleness, and Inmost Essence, have been, and are applicable to those Essences of Being, inasmuch as they all abide on the throne of Divine Revelation, and are established upon the seat of Divine Concealment. Through their appearance the Revelation of God is made manifest, and by their countenance the Beauty of God is revealed. Thus it is that the accents of God Himself have been heard uttered by these Manifestations of the Divine Being. (Gleanings, XXII, par. 6)


Hope that helps.

—BW

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:26 am

richard wrote:He is able to, and does in fact, send His Spirit to indwell us all but that does not make us God incarnate because we are far from being able to reflect His Perfection, whereas Jesus and Baha'u'llah were, and are, spiritually advanced enough to reflect the perfection of the Father's Spirit, we are not.


God is a spiritual entity and thus cannot literally be reduced to corporeal form. His Manifestations are the closest thing, in the physical realm, that mankind has seen of a "physical" form of God, I guess you could say. I could back this assertion up with some of the Writings of Baha'u'llah, if you want, and from others also.

richard wrote:You may quibble over this intellectually and theologically, but a better response for us all would be to love and honor God in spiritual truth and love and not presume to say what He can or cannot do, let alone argue about him as though any of us can say He has any limitations except those He imposes on Himself.


There's no "quibbling" here. Abbas asked a legitimate question, and we are trying to answer it to the best of our abilities.

Thanks for your input.

Take care,

BW

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:41 am

Richard wrote:Well, BW, The Spirit of God the Father was, and is, present in Jesus, as He was, and is, in Baha'u'llah, but technically you are correct, for the Father Himself does not choose to incarnate, but He could if he wanted to.


Richard:

Here's a quote from Baha'u'llah (what God Himself has to say of the matter):

Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: "Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise." He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.

http://bahai-library.com/writings/bahau ... b/020.html

Of course, the Bible seems to say that God can be incarnated, at least it is popuarily interpreted this way by Christians...

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:42 am

Richard:

Thanks for your reply. you said:

richard wrote:Well, BW, there is a subtle truth and reality in those words. In a sense, God "cannot" do anything that would be against His Perfect Will; however, He is Omnipotent and could do many things he chooses not to, because they would be wrong and imperfect; and, at times He must even restrain the Power of His Personal Presence and Power to protect us from harm, even physical death!


I see what you are saying, but don't you agree that God is immaterial and infinite? How then can that infinite, unknowable, intangibile Essence be reduced to the corporeal form, in the form of a man—a limited being? Man by definition is limited; God is unlimited. Men are material beings, endowed with souls, with very limited spiritual insight; God is a spiritual being whose presence is infinite and even a mystery to those in the next life (according to the Baha'i Writings)! It is apple and oranges, that is, material man and His Creator. Where Baha'u'llah says: "Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived," to me the quote is saying that it is impossible for God to incarnate Himself into a man. It is not suggesting that God is limited, it is merely stating that His perfections cannot be wholly and perfectly reduced to a material thing which He has created. If He truly revealed Himself in the physical realm, all creation—not just our humble earth—would indeed be instantly obliterated, which is kind of what you were saying I think.

richard wrote:God, the Universal Father, is not invisible because he is hiding himself away from the lowly creatures of materialistic handicaps and limited spiritual endowments. The situation rather is: "You cannot see my face, for no mortal can see me and live." No material man could behold the spirit God and preserve his mortal existence. The glory and the spiritual brilliance of the divine personality presence is impossible of approach by the lower groups of spirit beings or by any order of material personalities. The spiritual luminosity of the Father's personal presence is a "light which no mortal man can approach; which no material creature has seen or can see." But it is not necessary to see God with the eyes of the flesh in order to discern him by the faith-vision of the spiritualized mind. Mortal man simply cannot see God until he achieves completed spirit transformation and actually attains Paradise levels of Reality.


Now that I wholeheartedly agree with. Nicely stated.

richard wrote:Hope this helps you, me, all of us, focus on, and retain, the more important Spiritual Truths of God in this matter; and, will also help us understand the less important facts of how and why God does, or does not do, any specific thing.


Thanks!

richard wrote:Indeed, better for us to trust His Perfect Spiritual Truth, Love, Goodness, Will, Being, and Doing in our relationships with Him and all others, than to stumble over our human tendencies to become fixated on less spiritual facts and details, even onto arguing among ourselves about these lessor matters and taking our attentions away from the certainty of the Goodness of His Spiritual Truths of Love, Peace, Patience, Humility, and all the other fruits of His Spirit trying to grow and progress in our hearts, minds, and souls, our thoughts, feelings, words, and deeds in our relationships with Him, and all others in our lives... richard


Well said. Thanks again for your reply.

—BW

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:02 pm

Great reply, Richard. You said,

richard wrote:Indeed, God is Spiritual (immaterial), Infinite, Eternal, and Universal (Omnipresent); however, being the Omnipotent Creator and Upholder of All persons, places, and things, it hardly makes sense for us, with our limitations, to speculate on the idea of Him having limitations to do anything if it reflects His Perfect Truth, Goodness, Understanding, and Will. Surely if He is limited, it is by His own Perfect Choice, not our limited thinking as to what He should or can, do or not do.


Well, I guess there are different ways of looking at it. The way I look at it is that it is limiting to say that God could actually incarnate Himself into a human being, because that would not "do Him justice." I think it would be limiting to say He could literally incarnate Himself into something imperfect (compared to Him) and material that He Himself has created. But that's just my opinion, there are of course different ways of looking at it. It's an interesting topic, though.

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:32 am

Hi Richard,

You said:

richard wrote:Actually, BW, you are underestimating God by suggesting that His Perfect Personal and Spiritual incarnation into a human body would make Him less Perfect and not "do Him justice," when in fact His Perfection cannot be diminished by human imperfection, nor can the God of All Justice be harmed by the injustness of human imperfection. This is truly not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of understanding that God's Omnipotence and Perfection is not diminished even though He is Everywhere Present, Omnipresent, and that, of course, means He is Present even in the midst of all imperfections!


and

richard wrote:Give God more credit, and trust Him without any doubts, BW! It is good for you to be concerned about Him, but He can truly take care of Himself, even though it may make Him sad at times that we are not more loving and fail to well bear the fruits of His Spirit in our relationships with Him and each other.


In my humble opinion, I don't believe I was displaying any doubts in saying that God cannot incarnate Himself into a human being. My beliefs are pretty much shaped by the logic of Baha'u'llah's Writings—which are indeed logical, a fact you yourself have acknowledged. In the following passage, Baha'u'llah states that God cannot literally discourse with man or reveal Himself to man, and thus there is the need for the "Manifestation of God," (i.e. Prophets, Messengers, etc.). I ask that you reflect on these Words of Baha'u'llah, and see if you can see the logic and truth in them concerning the Almighty Creator:

    And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: "Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is." And in like manner, the words: "Arise, O Muhammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee." He similarly saith: "There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants." The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: "I am but a man like you." "Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?" These Essences of Detachment, these resplendent Realities are the channels of God's all-pervasive grace. Led by the light of unfailing guidance, and invested with supreme sovereignty, They are commissioned to use the inspiration of Their words, the effusions of Their infallible grace and the sanctifying breeze of Their Revelation for the cleansing of every longing heart and receptive spirit from the dross and dust of earthly cares and limitations. Then, and only then, will the Trust of God, latent in the reality of man, emerge, as resplendent as the rising Orb of Divine Revelation, from behind the veil of concealment, and implant the ensign of its revealed glory upon the summits of men's hearts.

    From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.

    (Source: Gleanings, http://bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/gwb/027.html)


Take care Richard, and thanks again for sharing your thoughts. I look forward to your reply.

—BW

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:06 pm

richard wrote:Well, BW, here again we are more into questions of intellectual facts than spiritual truths, and we need to proceed slowly, patiently, and humbly out of respect for each other and for our God.


It's a spiritual truth, not an intellectual fact. It is a spiritual fact stated by the Prophet Baha'u'llah Himself. It is just as if Jesus would have said the same thing. He didn't, because humanity wasn't ready for that spiritual truth. Now that mankind is able to understand higher spiritual truths such as this one, they are given to us by God's Manifestation, Baha'u'llah.

Baha'i Warrior
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:07 am
Location: U.S.A.

Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:47 am

richard wrote:Well, BW, those things said, it seems clear you have placed all your chips on the theological intelligence of mental concepts and I have put most of my chips on spiritualized intelligence rooted in spiritual experiences.


One cannot guess about God, he can only read religious scripture and reflect on it. We cannot gain a better appreciation of God without the guidance of spiritual texts, the Baha'i Writings being the most recent ones.

richard wrote:Indeed, facts, knowledge, even wisdom still have some interest for me but my hunger for God and His Truth has me spending the majority of my time praying and working to progress spiritually in my relationships with God and all others.


Just a suggestion, why don't you spend more of your time reading Baha'u'llah's Words? He truly has all the answers that you would ever need, IMHO. The Wisdom that you seek in Jesus' Words can be found in Baha'u'llah's Words—Words which are updated and elaborated on, if you will.

richard wrote:Take care, BW, and know that by the Spiritual Grace, Love, Goodness, Forgiveness, and Mercy of our God, all who sincerely seek to learn, know, and do His Will, will be fine, sooner or later… richard


Indeed. Thank you too, Richard.

Dorumerosaer
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:15 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Manifestion Explained

Postby Dorumerosaer » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:34 am

>>>Im hoping someone can clearly explain the meaning f "Manifestation Of God".>>>

Let's assume that we human beings learned the language of the ants. OK, now you are given an assignment: Please explain the workings of this internet list, and its contents, to an ant.

The ant is created in its own realm, with its own capacities, and its own limitations. It cannot rise above its own station. It cannot, whatever language is used, understand this discussion we are involved in. It cannot grasp justice, nor love, nor the seeking of Truth.

In like manner, the human being has limitations. In Some Answered Questions, Abdu'l-Baha addresses this topic. Please forgive this lengthy quote:

"Question. -- What connection has the Reality of Divinity with the Lordly Rising-places and the Divine Dawning-points?

"Answer. -- Know that the Reality of Divinity or the substance of the Essence of Oneness is pure sanctity and absolute holiness -- that is to say, it is sanctified and exempt from all praise. The whole of the supreme attributes of the degrees of existence, in reference to this plane, are only imaginations. It is invisible, incomprehensible, inaccessible, a pure essence which cannot be described, for the Divine Essence surrounds all things. Verily, that which surrounds is greater than the surrounded, and the surrounded cannot contain that by which it is surrounded, nor comprehend its reality. However far mind may progress, though it may reach to the final degree of comprehension, the limit of understanding, it beholds the divine signs and attributes in the world of creation and not in the world of God. For the essence and the attributes of the Lord of Unity are in the heights of sanctity, and for the minds and understandings there is no way to approach that position. 'The way is closed, and seeking is forbidden.'

"It is evident that the human understanding is a quality of the existence of man, and that man is a sign of God: how can the quality of the sign surround the creator of the sign? -- that is to say, how can the understanding, which is a quality of the existence of man, comprehend God? Therefore, the Reality of the Divinity is hidden from all comprehension, and concealed from the minds of all men. It is absolutely impossible to ascend to that plane. We see that everything which is lower is powerless to comprehend the reality of that which is higher. So the stone, the earth, the tree, however much they may evolve, cannot comprehend the reality of man and cannot imagine the powers of sight, of hearing, and of the other senses, although they are all alike created. Therefore, how can man, the created, understand the reality of the pure Essence of the Creator? This plane is unapproachable by the understanding; no explanation is sufficient for its comprehension, and there is no power to indicate it. What has an atom of dust to do with the pure world, and what relation is there between the limited mind and the infinite world? Minds are powerless to comprehend God, and the souls become bewildered in explaining Him. "The eyes see Him not, but He seeth the eyes. He is the Omniscient, the Knower." [Cf. Qur'án 6:104.]

"Consequently, with reference to this plane of existence, every statement and elucidation is defective, all praise and all description are unworthy, every conception is vain, and every meditation is futile. But for this Essence of the essences, this Truth of truths, this Mystery of mysteries, there are reflections, auroras, appearances and resplendencies in the world of existence. The dawning-place of these splendors, the place of these reflections, and the appearance of these manifestations are the Holy Dawning-places, the Universal Realities and the Divine Beings, Who are the true mirrors of the sanctified Essence of God. All the perfections, the bounties, the splendors which come from God are visible and evident in the Reality of the Holy Manifestations, like the sun which is resplendent in a clear polished mirror with all its perfections and bounties. If it be said that the mirrors are the manifestations of the sun and the dawning-places of the rising star, this does not mean that the sun has descended from the height of its sanctity and become incorporated in the mirror, nor that the Unlimited Reality is limited to this place of appearance. God forbid! This is the belief of the adherents of anthropomorphism. No; all the praises, the descriptions and exaltations refer to the Holy Manifestations -- that is to say, all the descriptions, the qualities, the names and the attributes which we mention return to the Divine Manifestations; but as no one has attained to the reality of the Essence of Divinity, so no one is able to describe, explain, praise or glorify it. Therefore, all that the human reality knows, discovers and understands of the names, the attributes and the perfections of God refer to these Holy Manifestations. There is no access to anything else: "the way is closed, and seeking is forbidden."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 146-148)

In the very first selection of the Gleanings, Baha'u'llah goes farther than this. There, He explains that actually the human being cannot grasp the Manifestations of God (spoken of in the above passage as the "Lordly Rising-places and the Divine Dawning-points") In reality, all the human being can grasp is his own inner sef. We cannot grasp, we cannot surround, that which is greater than us.

And Prophets are greater than us. To Baha'is, Prophets are not merely human beings bearing a divine Message. Their nature is different: Their soul existed eternally, whereas the souls of human beings come into being at conception.

In my view, the Baha'i concept of "Manifestation" is a divine effort to expand man's horizons. We ask, "Well, is a Manifestation the same as a Prophet?" The answer is, our concept of Prophet is too small. It is the effort of an ant to understand a man. Baha'u'llah's explanations of the Manifestations of God are not easily reduced to a sentence or a slogan. Only matters smaller than man can be reduced to a few words of text. Those realities that are greater than the human mind can only be hinted at, and felt, never fully grasped.

In Some Answered Questions and in the Iqan, it is explained that the Manifestations each have more than one station; and that they speak with more than one voice. Sometimes the Manifestation speaks as a human being, submissive to the Word. Sometimes the Manifestation speaks with the voice of command, as the Revealer of God's Word and God's perfections. And sometimes the Manifestation of God speaks with the voice of God. This is true of all of the Manifestations, not only of Baha'u'llah.

And in this sense, this speaking with the Voice of God -- in that sense, Baha'u'llah can be spoken of as having sent down the Prophets. In reality, in the realm of the Manifestations, Baha'u'llah is one of Them. He is not in charge of them. This is not my opinion, this is guidance from Shoghi Effendi:

"Bahá'u'lláh is not the Intermediary between other Manifestations and God. Each has His own relation to the Primal Source. But in the sense that Bahá'u'lláh is the greatest Manifestation to yet appear, the One Who consummates the Revelation of Moses. He was the One Moses conversed with in the Burning Bush. In other words Bahá'u'lláh identifies the Glory of God-Head on that occasion with Himself. No distinction can be made amongst the Prophets in the sense that They all proceed from One Source, and are of One Essence. But their stations and function in this world are different." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 19, 1947; Lights of Guidance, p. 471, #1552)

Brent

iranpour
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:52 pm

Re: Manifestion Explained

Postby iranpour » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:41 am

choogue wrote:
So he is higher than a Prophet because he sent Muhammad(a.s)? So it wasnt Allah(swt)?

Hello choogue,

I am a Muslim background Baha’i and nice hearing your words.
I agree with the most views of our friends regarding your question and want to add a few words from another angle.

I believe that “the Manifestations of God”, “Prophets”, “Messengers”, “the Revealers of God’s Will”, “the Mouthpieces of God” etc. are all refer to “THE FOUNDERS OF RELIGIONS” who are “EQUAL IN RANK” and “IN ESSENCE”. Being lack of self and passion and void of humanistic ego, AS SHALLOW REEDS, They are the MOUTHPIECE OF GOD, namely as flutes in His hands.

They are equal in WHATEVER THEY RECEIVE FROM GOD but different in WHATEVER THEY REVEAL TO MANKIND, according to the degree of their evolution and the exigencies of time and place. This reality has described in the Qur’an by the following verses which seems contradict each other in some people’s mind:

“We make no DISTINCTION BETWEEN ANY OF HIS MESSENGERS”. (Qur’an, 2:276).

“These Messengers have We exalted, SOME OF THEM ABOVE OTHERS”. (Qur’an, 2:254).

Those who look into a mirror fixed to the direction of the sun, find its shape, light and heat in it; if they had never seen the sun and just hearing its description, they might mistake the IMAGE, for the SUN ITSELF.

As it is with the sun, its image and the mirror, so it is with God, the Divine Manifestation and His Revelation.

God blows into the flute of His Mouthpiece and as the people DO NOT SEE THE BLOWER, they think that the man DECLARES GODHEAD, while Baha’u’llah says that this condition is pureest servitude, because He forget Himself and became as a flute in His hand.

So if we heard from Baha’u’llah to say “WE SENT MUHAMMAD THE PROPHET” or from Muhammad the Prophet, to say, “And We have sent no Messenger but that he should be obeyed by the command of Allah” (Qur’an, 4:65) or “Surely, We sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. (Qur’an, 5:45) or “We sent Noah to his people and he said, ‘O my people, worship Allah, you have no other God but Him. Indeed, I fear for you the punishment of the great day”. (Qur’an, 7:60), we have not to think that They declared to be God, but His MOUTHPIECES who transfer His Words. To be continued

iranpour
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:52 pm

Re: Manifestion Explained

Postby iranpour » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:46 am

Cont.
Man, so much cannot understand the nature of the relationship of God with Baha'u'llah or His other Manifestations. Regarding this relationship:

The mystical intercourse between God, as the Father, and His chosen Mouthpiece, the Prophet,as the Mother, gives birth to Divine Revelation which in turn brings forth the Word of God. It is not possible for man to understand the nature of this sacred relationship, a relationship through which God is linked with His Manifestation. Our limited knowledge in this field is derived from the words of Bahá'u'lláh, and words are inadequate tools for the expression of a spiritual reality. (Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 1, p. 21).


Is the Divine Manifestation, God? ‘Abdu’l-Baha answers:

Yes, and yet not in Essence. A Divine Manifestation is as a mirror reflecting the light of the Sun. The light is the same and YET THE MIRROR IS NOT THE SUN. All the Manifestations of God bring the same Light; they only differ in degree, not in reality. The Truth is one. The light is the same though the lamps may be different; we must look at the Light not at the Lamp. If we accept the Light in one, we must accept the Light in all; all agree, because all are the same. The teaching is ever the same, it is only the outward forms that change.

The Manifestations of God are as the heavenly bodies. All have their appointed place and time of ascension, but the Light they give is the same. If one wishes to look for the sun rising, one does not look always at the same point because that point changes with the seasons. When one sees the sun rise further in the north one recognizes it, though it has risen at a different point. (Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 66).

Shoghi effendi, the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith clarifies the difference between “God” and “His Manifestations”:

Let no one meditating, in the light of the afore-quoted passages, on the nature of the Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, mistake its character or misconstrue the intent of its Author. THE DIVINITY ATTRIBUTED TO SO GREAT A BEING and the complete incarnation of the names and attributes of God in so exalted a Person SHOULD, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, BE MISCONCEIVED OR MISINTERPRETED. The human temple that has been made the vehicle of so overpowering a Revelation must, IF WE BE FAITHFUL TO THE TENETS OF OUR FAITH, ever remain entirely distinguished from that "INNERMOST SPIRIT OF SPIRITS" and "eternal Essence of Essences" -- that invisible yet rational God Who, however much we extol the divinity of His Manifestations on earth, can in no wise incarnate His infinite, His unknowable, His incorruptible and all-embracing Reality in the concrete and limited frame of a mortal being. INDEED, THE GOD WHO COULD SO INCARNATE HIS OWN REALITY WOULD, IN THE LIGHT OF THE TEACHINGS OF BAHÁ'U'LLÁH, CEASE IMMEDIATELY TO BE GOD. So crude and fantastic a theory of Divine incarnation is as removed from, and incompatible with, the essentials of Bahá'í belief as are the no less inadmissible pantheistic and anthropomorphic conceptions of God -- both of which the utterances of Bahá'u'lláh emphatically repudiate and the fallacy of which they expose.
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 112).

BruceDLimber
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:34 pm
Location: Rockville, Maryland, USA

Re: Manifestion Explained

Postby BruceDLimber » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:57 am


C>Previously my comprehension of a Manifestation of God is that God materialised Himself into the form of Bahaullah.

Definitely not the case!

As has already been explained, God doesn't incarnate Himself. An official Baha'i source says this:

"[The] invisible yet rational God ... can in no wise incarnate His infinite, His unknowable, His incorruptible and all-embracing Reality in the concrete and limited frame of a mortal being. Indeed, the God Who could so incarnate His own reality would, in the light of the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, cease immediately to be God. So crude and fantastic a theory of Divine incarnation is as removed from, and incompatible with, the essentials of Bahá'í belief as are the no less inadmissible pantheistic and anthropomorphic conceptions of God."

—(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 113)


It should be borne in mind that Divine Messengers each have a dual station: in one, They are all equal. Indeed, the Baha'i scriptures state, "No distinction do We make between any of them." But in the other, They do indeed differ such that some are more prominent than others. (All this is explained in detail in The Book of Certitude, one of the volumes of Baha'i scripture).

Peace, :-)

Bruce


Return to “Discussion”