The Qa'im

All research or scholarship questions
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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:29 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:Some of the Bab's Writings have been changed, but there is more than enough of His Writings that we know are authentic. Here it is: http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/index/albab.htm. If you can't read the language then I suggest learning Arabic (or Persian), until this stuff is translated. Again, our priority now is Baha'u'llah, who the Bab said was much more important than Himself.


Many thanks for the advice to learn arabic and persina. Thankfully, I am fairly proficient in both.

On the page you gavce me wherein you have acknowledged that it contains some books of the Bab which are considered as reliable, please pay attention to the following book:

Sahifae Adaliyah.

On page 27 of the book, the Bab outlines the Shiite belief of Imamate and says that there are 12 Imams and takes their names. The last name he takes is "Al Qaem Mohammed Ibnil Hasan Sahebazzaman". The link to this page is: http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/ba ... adl027.jpg

Who was Mohamed Ibnil Hasan whom the Bab says was the 12th Imam? and if Bab says that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was the 12th Imam, then where is the question that the Bab was the 12th Imam?

Regards,

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:55 pm

ill have to take a look at closer look at that, but that's beside the point—the plain fact is that the Bab referred to Himself countless times as the Mahdi, or Qa'im, as i have shown with several quotes, so there is no doubt whatsoever that He designated Himself this station. or would you like all those quotes posted for you again?

--bw

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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:50 am

Baha'i Warrior wrote:ill have to take a look at closer look at that, but that's beside the point—the plain fact is that the Bab referred to Himself countless times as the Mahdi, or Qa'im, as i have shown with several quotes, so there is no doubt whatsoever that He designated Himself this station. or would you like all those quotes posted for you again?
--bw


Bab did not refer to himself as the Mahdi countless times. For everytime that you can show me that he said clearly and unambigiously - please do not give quotes where he "hints" or talks in circles about being the Mahdi. For each of these instances that he was the Mahdi I can show you that the Bab said that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was the Mahdi, The Qaem and the Sahebuzzaman.

So who was Mohammed Ibnil Hasan?

And if the Bab himself said that he was not the 12th Imam, then why are the Bahais making such a fuss about it?

And what if it is proved that Bab claimed that he was the Mahdi and at the same time said that he was not the Mahdi? What should the people believe?

And if he is not the Mahdi, then what happens to Bahaullah and his claim of Whom Allah will Manifest for it will become clear that the Bab was referring to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan as the One Whom Allah will Manifest and not Bahaullah?

You have said that "there is no doubt that the Bab was the Mahdi". There is "no doubt" that there is a lot of doubt about whether Bab was the Mahdi or not.

I recommend that you take a closer look at Sahifae Adaliyah before sending me any of your quotes and before the discussion goes off into a tangent.

Regards,

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Postby FruccalFrilia » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:33 am

The Bab did refer himself as the Mahdi, maybe not countless times, but did Muhammad refer himself as the Seal of the Prophets countless times?

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:51 am

Muhammad ibn Hasan ibn Ali was the actual 12th imam that existed, but the Bab returns in the spiritual fulfillment of this imam. it is unlikely that the actual person himself would return. the "return" doesn't mean the same exact person, i.e. same body, same name, etc. even the bible says that Jesus will return with a different name, but christians still think He's going to return with the same name.

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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:10 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:Muhammad ibn Hasan ibn Ali was the actual 12th imam that existed, but the Bab returns in the spiritual fulfillment of this imam. it is unlikely that the actual person himself would return. the "return" doesn't mean the same exact person, i.e. same body, same name, etc. even the bible says that Jesus will return with a different name, but christians still think He's going to return with the same name.


Is this some theory that you have invested all by yourself or were you taught this in some Bahai class? Did the Bab say this? Please provide some documentary proof for what you are saying. Please notice that I provided you with the quotation from the same page as you sent me. I can give you more, but for now lets focus on page 27 of Sahifae Adaliyah where the Bab says that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan and not he was the Mahdi.

If Mohammed Ibnil Hasan existed, then what happened to him, Why did the people not ask Bab that.

Regards,

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:10 pm

Muhammad al-Mahdi

According to Twelver Shi'as Imam Muhammad al-Mahdi (or Muhammad ibn Hasan ibn Ali) is the twelfth Imam and the Mahdi, the ultimate savior of mankind. Other Shi'a schools adhere to different Imam successions and do not, along with Sunnis, consider Muhammad the Mahdi. Twelver Shi'as believe that Muhammad was born in 868 and has been hidden by God (referred to as occultation) to later emerge to fulfill his mission.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_Imam

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Postby uwoHXaCnf » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:29 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote:Muhammad al-Mahdi

According to Twelver Shi'as Imam Muhammad al-Mahdi (or Muhammad ibn Hasan ibn Ali) is the twelfth Imam and the Mahdi, the ultimate savior of mankind. Other Shi'a schools adhere to different Imam successions and do not, along with Sunnis, consider Muhammad the Mahdi. Twelver Shi'as believe that Muhammad was born in 868 and has been hidden by God (referred to as occultation) to later emerge to fulfill his mission.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_Imam


You seem to be side stepping the issue. We are dicussing the position of Mohammed Ibnil Hasan in the light of page 27 of Sahifae Adaliyah - a book of the Bab which appeared on the page whose link you sent me saying that these books are considered authentic by the scholars of the faith.

I already know what the Shiite Twelvers think of Mohammed Ibnil Hasan. Please let me know what the Bab was thinking when he said that the Mahdi, the Qaem is not he, rather it is Mohammed Ibnil Hasan.

Regards,

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Postby senfreern » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:34 pm

like baha'i warrior said earlier..






Muhammad ibn Hasan ibn Ali was the actual 12th imam that existed, but the Bab returns in the spiritual fulfillment of this imam. it is unlikely that the actual person himself would return. the "return" doesn't mean the same exact person, i.e. same body, same name, etc. even the bible says that Jesus will return with a different name, but christians still think He's going to return with the same name.

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Postby Zazaban » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:51 pm

I have split the large off-topic disscussion off from the original topic.
Justice and equity are twin Guardians that watch over men. From them are revealed such blessed and perspicuous words as are the cause of the well-being of the world and the protection of the nations.
~ Bahá'u'lláh

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Postby choogue » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:26 am

kjf512,

kjf512 wrote:like baha'i warrior said earlier..






Muhammad ibn Hasan ibn Ali was the actual 12th imam that existed, but the Bab returns in the spiritual fulfillment of this imam. it is unlikely that the actual person himself would return. the "return" doesn't mean the same exact person, i.e. same body, same name, etc. even the bible says that Jesus will return with a different name, but christians still think He's going to return with the same name.


Thats right but then Imran wrote:

Is this some theory that you have invested all by yourself or were you taught this in some Bahai class? Did the Bab say this? Please provide some documentary proof for what you are saying. Please notice that I provided you with the quotation from the same page as you sent me. I can give you more, but for now lets focus on page 27 of Sahifae Adaliyah where the Bab says that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan and not he was the Mahdi.

If Mohammed Ibnil Hasan existed, then what happened to him, Why did the people not ask Bab that.


So we need to know what the Bab said in the light of returning as a spiritual fulfillment rather than an individuals opinion.

Regards
Abbas

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:16 am

it's no opinion. Muhammad Himself said: "I am Jesus." The Bab could have said He was Muhammad ibn Hasan ibn Ali/mention his name, and He would have still been the Qa'im. Or He could have said He was Adam and still have been the Qa'im. Or He could have said He was the Mahdi Himself (which is did), and still be the Qa'im. In fact, the Bab says He is the Gate to God Himself, thus demonstrating that His station is even greater...He is the Manifestation of God Himself. Indeed, God can be whoever He says He is. these Divine Persons can at once be all the prophets (Manifestations), if they wish to address themselves as being so, even though they be only a single Person (Manifestation). they are not bound by limits. it has already been shown that the Bab considered Himself the Mahdi, as did Baha'u'llah. so there is no confusion as to what the Bab's station was, at least among Baha'is (and non-Baha'is) familiar with islam and the Bab's claims...

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Postby Dorumerosaer » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:09 am

>>We are dicussing the position of Mohammed Ibnil Hasan in the light of page 27 of Sahifae Adaliyah - a book of the Bab which appeared on the page whose link you sent me saying that these books are considered authentic by the scholars of the faith.>>

Most western Baha'is can read neither Persian nor Arabic. I doubt that anyone on this list has said that the books of the Bab that are on that website are considered authentic. That determination is not made by scholars, but by the Head of our Faith.

In a letter on his behalf, Shoghi Effendi wrote: "The books of the Báb have not as yet been printed in the original. Except for the Bayan, the Seven Proofs, and Commentary on the Surih of Joseph, we cannot be sure of the authenticity of most of His other works as the text has been corrupted by the unfaithful." (Letter dated December 27, 1941, Messages to the Indian Subcontinent, p. 210)

Additional reliable Tablets, or excerpts from them, were translated into English and published in Selections from the Writings of the Bab.

You may also find reliable Writings of the Bab in Arabic here:
http://reference.bahai.org/ar/
and in Persian here:
http://reference.bahai.org/fa/
These are on the website prepared by the Universal House of Justice, and these have been determined to be authentic.

So the view of any individual scholar that a text is reliable, is merely that scholar's view, and can in no way be deemed to be "the Baha'i view". In the Baha'i Revelation, the views of scholars are not the determinant of such things. They have an important role, but this is a departure from the role of scholars in Islam, where they actually have the last word on things of this type. Not in the Baha'i Faith.

On the subject of the 12th Imam, Baha'u'llah wrote:

"All that thou hast heard regarding Muhammad the son of Hasan - may the souls of all that are immersed in the oceans of the spirit be offered up for His sake - is true beyond the shadow of a doubt, and we all verily bear allegiance unto Him. But the Imams of the Faith have fixed His abode in the city of Jabulqa, which they have depicted in strange and marvellous signs. To interpret this city according to the literal meaning of the tradition would indeed prove impossible, nor can such a city ever be found. Wert thou to search the uttermost corners of the earth, nay probe its length and breadth for as long as God's eternity hath lasted and His sovereignty will endure, thou wouldst never find a city such as they have described, for the entirety of the earth could neither contain nor encompass it. If thou wouldst lead Me unto this city, I could assuredly lead thee unto this holy Being, Whom the people have conceived according to what they possess and not to that which pertaineth unto Him! Since this is not in thy power, thou hast no recourse but to interpret symbolically the accounts and traditions that have been reported from these luminous souls. And, as such an interpretation is needed for the traditions pertaining to the aforementioned city, so too is it required for this holy Being. When thou hast understood this interpretation, thou shalt no longer stand in need of "transformation" or aught else.

"Know then that, inasmuch as all the Prophets are but one and the same soul, spirit, name, and attribute, thou must likewise see them all as bearing the name Muhammad and as being the son of Hasan, as having appeared from the Jabulqa of God's power and from the Jabulsa of His mercy. For by Jabulqa is meant none other than the treasure-houses of eternity in the all-highest heaven and the cities of the unseen in the supernal realm. We bear witness that Muhammad the son of Hasan was indeed in Jabulqa and appeared therefrom. Likewise, He Whom God shall make manifest abideth in that city until such time as God will have established Him upon the seat of His sovereignty. We, verily, acknowledge this truth and bear allegiance unto each and every one of them. We have chosen here to be brief in our elucidation of the meanings of Jabulqa, but if thou be of them that truly believe, thou shalt indeed comprehend all the true meanings of the mysteries enshrined within these Tablets.

"But as to Him Who appeared in the year sixty, [a reference to the Bab -- B.P.] He standeth in need of neither transformation nor interpretation, for His name was Muhammad, and He was a descendant of the Imams of the Faith. Thus it can be truly said of Him that He was the son of Hasan, as is undoubtedly clear and evident unto thine eminence. Nay, He it is Who fashioned that name and created it for Himself, were ye to observe with the eye of God."
(Baha'u'llah, Javahiru'l-Asrar, Gems of Divine Mysteries, pp. 37-38 )

It would be beneficial to see the passage in context.
Brent

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Postby choogue » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:38 pm

pilgrimbrent wrote:In a letter on his behalf, Shoghi Effendi wrote: "The books of the Báb have not as yet been printed in the original. Except for the Bayan, the Seven Proofs, and Commentary on the Surih of Joseph, we cannot be sure of the authenticity of most of His other works as the text has been corrupted by the unfaithful." (Letter dated December 27, 1941, Messages to the Indian Subcontinent, p. 210)


Is the Bayan available in English? If not, will it be?

Regards
Abbas

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Postby choogue » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:48 pm

Baha'i Warrior wrote: it has already been shown that the Bab considered Himself the Mahdi, as did Baha'u'llah. so there is no confusion as to what the Bab's station was, at least among Baha'is (and non-Baha'is) familiar with islam and the Bab's claims...


Ive been following this thread and it has proved to be quite educational however i may have missed this. Could you please direct me to the post on this thread where it was demonstrated? (im not being a smartarse, i just want to go back and read it). Thanks

Regards
Abbas

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Postby Baha'i Warrior » Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:20 am

abbas wrote:
Baha'i Warrior wrote: it has already been shown that the Bab considered Himself the Mahdi, as did Baha'u'llah. so there is no confusion as to what the Bab's station was, at least among Baha'is (and non-Baha'is) familiar with islam and the Bab's claims...


Ive been following this thread and it has proved to be quite educational however i may have missed this. Could you please direct me to the post on this thread where it was demonstrated? (im not being a smartarse, i just want to go back and read it). Thanks

Regards
Abbas


"He Who hath revealed the Qur'án unto Muhammad, the Apostle of God, ordaining in the Faith of Islam that which was pleasing unto Him, hath likewise revealed the Bayán, in the manner ye have been promised, unto Him Who is your Qá'im,+F1 your Guide, your Mihdi,+F2 your Lord, Him Whom ye acclaim as the manifestation of God's most excellent titles. Verily the equivalent of that which God revealed unto Muhammad during twenty-three years, hath been revealed unto Me within the space of two days and two nights. However, as ordained by God, no distinction is to be drawn between the two. He, in truth, hath power over all things."

etc. etc...

swb p. 139 http://bahai-library.com/writings/bab/s ... ll.html#67

i had posted them all in another thread, anyway theres that one

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Postby choogue » Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:19 am

Thanks.

In which thread did you post that in? I just want to go back to it and have a read.

Another thing, is the Bayan available in English? If not, will it be?

Regards
Abbas

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Postby Dorumerosaer » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:13 am

abbas wrote:. . . is the Bayan available in English? If not, will it be?


The House of Justice published Selections from the Writings of the Bab which contains excerpts from the Persian Bayan, and also I believe from the less significant Arabic Bayan.

The entire Bayan is not, to my knowledge, available in English.

Denis Maceoin started translating it http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/bayan.html but hasn't posted any new work on that page in 2 or 3 years, and I doubt that he will finish it, at this rate.

Edward Granville Browne prepared a summary of the provisions of the Bayan, and translated a significant portion of it. Moojan Momen is the editor of a book "Selections from the Writings of Edward Granville Browne" published by Baha'i publisher George Ronald Ltd. of the UK which contains Browne's translation and notes; and several used copies are available inexpensively at http://www.abebooks.com , so this is easily available.

A.L.M. Nicolas translated the entire Bayan into French, and this translation can be found in libraries; ask your local public librarian.

Whether it is on the agenda of the Universal House of Justice, I don't know. When the House announces translations, sometimes it specifies what will be translated; other times it just says that new translations of various tablets will be translated. I do not know of any pending announcement as regards future translations. My own feeling is that this is not anywhere high on the list, because the Bab said that His laws would only last until the appearance of Him Whom God will make manifest, and that the primary purpose of the Bayan was not the practice of His laws, --- that it should primarily be regarded not as a repository of laws to guide humanity, but as a eulogy of the Promised One. The portions published by the House contain these eulogies, these praises of Baha'u'llah, some of them mentioning Baha'u'llah by name. Also some of the unpublished portions are discussed in Nader Saeidi's book "Logos and Civilization".

Further publication of the Writings of the Bab would mostly be for historical interest, as His laws are not a guide for us at this time, these provisions of the Bayan having expressly been superceded by Baha'u'llah's laws. See commentary about these aspects of the Bayan in Notes 108, 109 and 158 to the Aqdas.

And while we are on this point, it was recently stated by the gentleman who operates the Baha'i Awareness website that the Bab is "the founder of Bahaism". That is incorrect. The Bab is the Forerunner, the Announcer of the Baha'i Revelation, and the Author of His own independent Revelation. Baha'u'llah is the Author of the Baha'i Revelation.

Brent

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Postby choogue » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:23 am

Thanks Brent.

As im sure you could imagine, if the Bab was the Mahdi, the Bayan would be a very important book to a Muslim. The Mahdi is the one the Muslims are waiting for who will bring peace and justice to this world. Every Muslim has been taught the importance of the Mahdi and the impact He will have in this world, therefore the Bayan should technically be the most important book (initially) for Muslims to except Bahai.

To every Muslim the return of the Mahdi is a huge event which will not pass unnoticed. Learning about the Bahai faith as a religion that has abrogated Islam makes the Mahdi no longer relevant. We therefore require the initial books from the Bab to be able to determine if he was the Mahdi or not.
The Muslims are not expecting a new Prophet so hearing about the Bahai faith will be an instant rejection. However, we Muslims are expecting the return of the Mahdi, therefore we will need to begin with the teachings of the bab before proceeding with investigations into the Bahai faith. The Mahdi, in someway, is no longer relevant to the Bahai's but is still very important to the Muslims.

If the Bahai faith wish to increase their numbers in the Muslim community, they need to acknowledge the fact that Muslims place importance on the return of the Mahdi and therefore translate all the Bab's books to spread the message of the return. As Imran previously stated, the Muslims who are waiting for the Mahdi all their life are basically told He is no longer relevant and to concentrate on Bahaullah. This is very difficult to accept since so much emphasis has been placed on the Mahdi and the impact He would have.

Anyway, thats just my opinion as a Muslim. This is why i would like to hear from a Muslim who has converted to Bahai, but it is proving to be quite difficult.

Regards
Abbas

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Postby British_Bahai » Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:35 am

abbas wrote:Anyway, thats just my opinion as a Muslim. This is why i would like to hear from a Muslim who has converted to Bahai, but it is proving to be quite difficult.

Abbas: I know quite a lot of people who were Muslim but declared as a Bahai. However, they are not the type of people who use the internet because theyre middle aged, which is a shame. But just to let you know, there are a lot of them out there.Infact, my cousins wife used to be Muslim. Now she is one of the most devout Bahais ive ever seen

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Postby FruccalFrilia » Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:34 pm

The Bab is still very important to Bahais.

"And finally, in His[Abdul-Baha] Will and Testament, the repository of His last wishes and parting instructions, He in the following passage, specifically designed to set forth the guiding principles of Bahá’í belief, sets the seal of His testimony on the Báb’s dual and exalted station: “The foundation of the belief of the people of Bahá (may my life be offered up for them) is this: His holiness the exalted One (the Báb) is the Manifestation of the unity and oneness of God and the Forerunner of the Ancient Beauty (Bahá’u’lláh). His holiness, the Abhá Beauty (Bahá’u’lláh) (may my life be offered up as a sacrifice for His steadfast friends) is the supreme Manifestation of God and the Day-Spring of His most divine Essence.” “All others,” He significantly adds, “are servants unto Him and do His bidding.” "
-WOB, by Shoghi Effendi p. 128

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Postby Dorumerosaer » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:23 pm

abbas wrote:As Imran previously stated, the Muslims who are waiting for the Mahdi all their life are basically told He is no longer relevant and to concentrate on Bahaullah. This is very difficult to accept since so much emphasis has been placed on the Mahdi and the impact He would have.
Anyway, thats just my opinion as a Muslim. This is why i would like to hear from a Muslim who has converted to Bahai, but it is proving to be quite difficult.
Regards
Abbas


Thank you for the explanation. I'll see if I can find someone for you. The main sources I would point you to for the Writings of the Bab are the Dawn-Breakers and Selections from the Writings of the Bab. It's not our fault if the people in 19th-Century Persia defaced many of the Bab's Writings. Also, the Bab's Writings had to be hidden in the walls of people's homes, because the Babis were hunted down by mobs.

You can also find some Writings of the Bab translated by Steven Lambden at http://www.hurqalya.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk . Dr. Todd Lawson at the University of Toronto is very knowledgeable in the Writings of the Bab and their relationship to Islam.
http://www.utoronto.ca/nmc/faculty/lawsoncv.html

I wish to clarify a point about the Bab. The Person of the Bab is very important to Baha'is. Visiting His Shrine in the Holy Land is very important to us, and our Writings state that both He and Baha'u'llah continue to guide the deliberations of the Universal House of Justice.

What does not play a role now is the body of His laws; other than those which were accepted by Baha'u'llah, and a good number of them were accepted, and are identified as such in the Notes to the Aqdas.

You may also find this interesting, written by the widow of Shoghi Effendi:

"Another highly important aspect of the divinely conferred position Shoghi Effendi held of interpreter of the Teachings was that he not only protected the Sacred Word from being misconstrued but that he also carefully preserved the relationship and importance of different aspects of the Teachings to each other and safeguarded the rightful station of each of the three Central Figures of the Faith. An interesting example of this is reflected in a letter of A. L. M. Nicolas, the French scholar who translated the Bayan of the Bab into French and who might correctly be described as a Babi. For many years he was under the impression that the Baha'is had ignored the greatness and belittled the station of the Bab. When he discovered that Shoghi Effendi in his writings exalted the Bab, perpetuated His memory through a book such as Nabil's Narrative , and repeatedly translated His words into English, his attitude completely changed. In a letter to one of the old believers in France he wrote: "Now I can die quietly...Glory to Shoghi Effendi who has calmed my torment and my anxiety, glory to him who recognizes the worth of Siyyid 'Ali Muhammad called the Bab. I am so content that I kiss your hands which traced my address on the envelope which brought me the message of Shoghi. Thank you Mademoiselle, thank you from the bottom of my heart."" (Ruhiyyih Khanum, The Priceless Pearl, p. 204)

Of course, though Nicolas recognized the greatness of the Bab, he left a lot to be desired in other ways. If he had recognized Baha'u'llah, he would have changed his ways when he read Baha'u'llah's many teachings about racial unity and equality, and proper treatment of the followers of all Faiths.

The thing is that if you seek to look for what the Bab did, independently of Baha'u'llah, you will entirely miss the point. What the Bab primarily did was prepare the way for Baha'u'llah, and the great change in the world comes through Baha'u'llah, and only indirectly through the Bab.

This quote from a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi should help to clarify the point.
Brent

30 November 1930

He (the Guardian) is enclosing extracts from Lord Curzon's "Persia and the Persian Question" giving a detailed and faithful description of the state of Persia in the middle of the 19th century. He thinks that references to the extracts ... will be of great value in showing to the reader the contrast between the decadent state of the government and the people at that time and the heroism and nobility of character displayed by the early disciples of the Bab... Shoghi Effendi is also sending you ... the Master's words concerning the situation which led to the defensive action which the early disciples of the Bab were compelled to take in Mazindaran, Nayriz and Zanjan. From these words it is evident that a systematic campaign of plunder and massacre had been initiated by the central government. Baha'u'llah, Who Himself was an active figure in those days and was regarded one of the leading exponents of the Faith of the Bab, states clearly His views in the Iqan that His conception of the sovereignty of the Promised Qaiim was purely a spiritual one, and not a material or political one... His view of the sovereignty of the Qa'im confirms the various evidences given in the text of the narrative itself of the views held by those who actually participated in these events such as Hujjat, Quddus, Mulla Husayn. The very fact that these disciples were ready and willing to emerge from the fort and return to their homes after receiving the assurance that they would be no more molested is itself an evidence that they were not contemplating any action against the authorities.

Shoghi Effendi is also sending you an account of the doctrines of Shi'ah Islam from which the Movement originally sprang. It will help you to connect the origin of the Movement with the tenets and beliefs held by the Shi'ahs of Persia. The Bab declared Himself at the beginning of His mission to be the "Bab" by which He meant to be the gate or forerunner of "Him Whom God will make manifest", that is to say Baha'u'llah, Whose advent the Shi'ahs also expected in the person of "the return of Imam Husayn". The Sunnis also believe in a similar twofold manifestation, the first they call "the Mihdi", the second "the Return of Christ". By the term Bab, the Bab meant to be the forerunner of the second manifestation rather than, as some have maintained, the gate of the Qa'im. When He declared Himself to be the Bab, the people understood by the term that He was an intermediary between the absent Qa'im and His followers, though He Himself never meant to be such a person. All He claimed to be was that He was the Qa'im Himself and in addition to this station, that of the Bab, namely the gate or forerunner of "Him Whom God will make manifest".

There are many authorised traditions from Muhammad stating clearly (as explained in the Iqan) that the promised Qa'im would bring a new Book and new Laws. In other words abrogating the law of Islam.

Shoghi Effendi feels that the Unity of the Baha'ií revelation as one complete whole embracing the Faith of the Bab should be emphasised... The Faith of the Bab should not be divorced from that of Baha'u'llah. Though the teachings of the Bayan have been abrogated and superseded by the laws of Aqdas, yet due to the fact that the Bab considered Himself as the forerunner of Baha'u'llah we should regard His dispensation together with that of Baha'u'llah as forming one entity, the former being an introductory to the advent of the latter. Just as the advent of John the Baptist -- who according to various authorities was Himself the originator of laws which abrogated the teachings current among the Jews -- forms part of the Christian revelation, the advent of the Bab likewise forms an integral part of the Baha'i Faith. That is why Shoghi Effendi feels justified to call Nabil's narrative a narrative of the early days of the Baha'i revelation."
(From a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, The Unfolding Destiny of the British Baha'i Community, pp. 425-427)

choogue
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Postby choogue » Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:53 am

Thanks guys.

My gf is currently keeping an eye out for Ex-Muslims in the Bahai community in Sydney so we can have a talk with them. Hopefully there will be atleast one.

Regards
Abbas

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Postby Dorumerosaer » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:47 am

abbas wrote:My gf is currently keeping an eye out for Ex-Muslims in the Bahai community in Sydney so we can have a talk with them. Hopefully there will be atleast one.


A couple of comments. First, I am not sure that bringing a Muslim who has become a Baha'i into this Forum will be productive. I sense that he or she will be subjected to accusations of apostasy, and then the discussion will degenerate. So instead, if I am able to find a person, I will say so and then you can ask questions which I will forward, depending on the tone and intent, and I will then post the responses. I'm all for sharing knowledge, but avoiding wrangling.

Secondly, a comment on the term "Ex-Muslim." I was raised Catholic, and spent nearly two years in the seminary to become a Catholic priest. Five years after leaving the seminary I recognized Baha'u'llah as the return of Christ. I never use the term "Ex-Catholic" to speak of myself. I have not abandoned or rejected Jesus Christ or His Teachings.

I am not a member of the Catholic Church any longer, and I no longer believe that the words of the priest, through transubstantiation, convert the bread and the wine into the substance of the body and blood of Christ. I no longer wait for Jesus to return with angels on the clouds, because those are symbols, explained to my full satisfaction in the Book of Certitude. I believe that my becoming a Baha'i is the fruit of my being a Catholic, and fulfills the good-pleasure of Christ for me.

I would see a Muslim who recognizes Baha'u'llah in the same light; not as one who has turned his back on the Prophet Muhammad or on the Book. There are differences of interpretation and understanding, but not differences of esteem and faith.

Brent

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Postby British_Bahai » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:21 am

pilgrimbrent wrote:Secondly, a comment on the term "Ex-Muslim." I was raised Catholic, and spent nearly two years in the seminary to become a Catholic priest. Five years after leaving the seminary I recognized Baha'u'llah as the return of Christ. I never use the term "Ex-Catholic" to speak of myself. I have not abandoned or rejected Jesus Christ or His Teachings.

I am not a member of the Catholic Church any longer, and I no longer believe that the words of the priest, through transubstantiation, convert the bread and the wine into the substance of the body and blood of Christ. I no longer wait for Jesus to return with angels on the clouds, because those are symbols, explained to my full satisfaction in the Book of Certitude. I believe that my becoming a Baha'i is the fruit of my being a Catholic, and fulfills the good-pleasure of Christ for me.

I would see a Muslim who recognizes Baha'u'llah in the same light; not as one who has turned his back on the Prophet Muhammad or on the Book. There are differences of interpretation and understanding, but not differences of esteem and faith.

Very well said.

choogue
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Postby choogue » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:22 am

pilgrimbrent wrote:]First, I am not sure that bringing a Muslim who has become a Baha'i into this Forum will be productive. I sense that he or she will be subjected to accusations of apostasy, and then the discussion will degenerate.


For some reason I really doubt that would happen! This isnt a Muslim forum but rather a Bahai forum. Im sure the moderators will be able to handle the situation should anyone be accused of apostasy...

Even in Muslim forums we dont see anyone being accused of apostasy.

pilgrimbrent wrote:]So instead, if I am able to find a person, I will say so and then you can ask questions which I will forward, depending on the tone and intent, and I will then post the responses.


I appreciate your willingness to assist however i would find it much easier and effective if i could communicate directly with an ex-Muslim. Thanks for your suggestion anyway.

pilgrimbrent wrote:Secondly, a comment on the term "Ex-Muslim."


A Muslim is someone who believes in Allah, the Prophet Muhammad as the Final Messenger, a physical Resurrection, literal Heaven/Hell, literal Devil/Angels, etc. The term in my opinion fits well. When a Muslim does not believe in these teachings of the Prophet, they are therefore no longer Muslims, hence ex-Muslim.

Regards
Abbas


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