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Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:12 pm
by British_Bahai
Yes of course ;-)

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:20 pm
by Baha'i Warrior
In case this may become relevant: We largely do not interpret the Koran in the popular way that Muslims do. If we did, we wouldn't be Baha'is—we'd be Muslims.

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:24 am
by Baha'i Warrior
I love this :-P He he

Richard, my good friend, says:

richard wrote:Well, with all due respect how could it be irrelevant that the Bible, the Koran, the Gita, and all the religious texts of the world are ambiguous enough so that there is so much disagreement between and among even the most sincere and well-intended persons?

Well, no, on the contrary—I was saying that it's very relevant. A Muslim can say we are wrong because we misinterpret the verses of the Koran—that is, we don't interpret the Koran the way he does. Surely, as you say, the Words of the Prophet are very complex, and no human mind can fully comprehend their import. Only can divinely appointed Persons fully comprehend the meaning of the verses. Baha'u'llah (is my contention) is a Manifestation of God; therefore, I accept His explanations of koranic verses. Before becoming a Baha'i, one will obviously see this for himself; he won't see contradictions—he will see agreement. Baha'u'llah opens up eyes, makes people think "outside the box"—the "box" consisting of cliched opinions, based on what a particular person's community believes. (Even if the opinion differs, I always respect someone who actively tries to make sense of scripture himself, and doesn't rely on the explanations of infallible individuals.) Some take these interpretations for granted—indeed thinking that they are divine explanations somehow. Truly, as strongly as I believe in Baha'u'llah and His proofs, I wouldn't call someone ignorant, or a liar, or anti-Muhammad or whatever just because we don't see eye to eye on the meaning of certain religious principles. I'm sure Omozali won't do the same, as Zazaban quickly locked (and deleted I think) his first thread, in which he accused Baha'is of being anti-Muslim, I believe it was. We Baha'is don't think we're better than others because we belong to the newest religion, because hey—we could always be wrong. And also because we believe in the previous world religions, and we are taught not to be egoistic (see below).

richard wrote:Surely intellectual and theological uniformity is impossible in our imperfect human minds, and we would all do much better to seek spiritual unity in all religions and writings than to struggle endlessly with fundamentalist "intellectual" bickering and nit-picking.

I don't think it's impossible, though you do have somewhat of a good point if you point to sectarianism in the world religions... Muhammad denounces sectarianism in the Koran, but unfortunately it happened very quickly after He passed away. The Baha'i Faith has an Administrative Order that will protect against this major and unfortunate form of disunity (sectarianism)—and this keeps Baha'is in "intellectual and theological uniformity" for the major issues and principles that are pertinent to the Faith. After that, Baha'is can have and do have diversity of thought—but this is only proper as long as it doesn't undermine the authority of the Institutions, go against Baha'is teachings/principles, etc. It seems from history that "intellectual and theological uniformity is impossible," but I think it is possible, but to reach such a degree of civilization will take some time.

richard wrote:It is truly better to be good and loving in all our relationships than to continually argue over less important matters of who is right or wrong about some intellectual/philosophical/theological thoughts, facts, knowledge, and "wisdom" while ignoring the spiritual truths of love, goodness, kindness, peace, patience, humility, self-control, and faithfulness to all of these fruits of the spirit in our relationships with our God and all others.

Agreed. In fact Baha'is are discouraged from "arguing," but not from setting forth proofs, defending their positions, etc. Really, if we just sit back and do the "love thy neighbor" thing and think happy thoughts, the world wouldn't become a better place, because there are a lot of people out there who hate their neighbors—even to the point of blowing them up. The Baha'is need to create Baha'i awareness, to get the message of oneness out there, so that people can have an "informed decision," if you will. We don't force it on anyone, and never do anything at the sacrifice of "love, goodness, kindness, peace, patience, humility, self-control, and faithfulness"—at least we are taught not to. I can show you relevant quotes, especially from 'Abdu'l-Baha, if you'd like.

richard wrote:If we are truly motivated by love in all our beings and doings, all goodness will eventually prevail among all persons without digressions into personal & group prides and egos!

Everyone has an "ego," Richard, we just have to control it. But what is wrong with "group pride"? How's that egoistic? In truth, Baha'is are taught to humble themselves, and to prefer their neighbors' interests over their own. And we in fact are discouraged to see ourselves as equals to others...on the contrary, we are taught to look at ourselves as being lower than others. Thus, in this case, "group pride" does not lead to egoistic Baha'is, and indeed it leads to quite the opposite!

As always.................Thanks, Richard. :smile:


Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:53 pm
by Zazaban
Baha'i Warrior wrote:Zazaban quickly locked (and deleted I think) his first thread, in which he accused Baha'is of being anti-Muslim, I believe it was.
Actually, he was trying to prove the Baha'i Faith false by using the old "Seal of the Prophets" argument. I am a little bit suspicious that's what he's planning to do in this topic too. But I'm going to give him the benefit of a doubt.

Re: no

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:56 am
by British_Bahai
majnun wrote:NO, the Quran is obsolete now.
Majnun, I may be wrong, but I have never come across that as being a Bahai point of view :-s

Perhaps when you say "obsolete" you are referring to their *social* laws (i.e. that men can marry more than wife).

However, the spiritual laws are also part of the Qur'an so it can't wholly be classified as obsolete.

the older the scripture, the more we may be mislead

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:54 am
by majnun
Dear british friend:

Read the persian bayan, where the Bab
compares the previous scriptures we received,
and shows their gradual obsoletness, as newer
scriptures emerged. Most muslims will tell you
not to insult their Quran, because they revere
a book, wich is now obsolete.

We Baha'is do not care about people
mocking our scriptures because we do not take
a book to become itself a god.

Which spiritual laws are you refering to ?


Re: the older the scripture, the more we may be mislead

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:16 pm
by British_Bahai
majnun wrote:Read the persian bayan
I can only read the english version. If you have a link to it, please post it up.

majnun wrote:Read the persian bayan, where the Bab
compares the previous scriptures we received,
and shows their gradual obsoletness, as newer
scriptures emerged
Can you be more specific so I can find the specific verses you are referring to?

majnun wrote:Which spiritual laws are you refering to ?
The general ones, i.e. "love thy neighbour", "dont steal" etc etc.

Thanks :smile:

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:52 pm
by FruccalFrilia
The Quran is quoted in Bahai writings by Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha. Even works commisioned by the Universal House of Justice like Century of Light and One Common Faith have quotes from the Holy Quran.

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:06 pm
by Baha'i Warrior
I see what Majnun is saying. I think (correct me if I'm wrong Majnun) that he's saying for us Baha'is, the Writings of Baha'u'llah are more recent and thus more spiritually relevant than the old Books. I don't think he is saying that we don't believe that the Koran is the Word of God, or that it's words have no meaning anymore, but rather that we hear the New and Current Voice of God in Baha'u'llah's Writings, and thus we turn to Them for spiritual guidance—not necessarily the previous Scriptures—except to maybe complement Baha'u'llah's Writings. But there is no doubt that Baha'u'llah praises the Koran many a time and held deep respect for it.