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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:12 am
by British_Bahai
actually it shows/*emphasises* the main bahai principle of unity.

The whole point of the bahai faith is unity.
we all know that disunity occurs when different schisms (more commonly referred to as "divisions") arise.
if somebody deliberately goes against the teachings of a faith/religion it is evidence itself that that particular person is there to cause trouble

ex-communication occurs in all religions.
for example, ... urch#Notes
a List of people excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church from the year 2000+.

i have left the locking/deleting of this topic to the discretion of the site admin, jonah, because many threads like this have started but have served no purpose/use.

Re: World and Great Peace vs Family excommunication

Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:47 pm
by Dorumerosaer
golha wrote:We know that one of the most important social teachings of Bahai Faith is
Word Peace.But does it contradict the excommunications in Bahá'u'lláh 's family members?:

1. BiBi Fatima surnamed the Supreme Cradle (Mahd-i-Ulya) the second wife of Bahá'u'lláh and their four children:
Muhammad Ali, Samadiyya, Ziyaullah, Badiullah
were all excommunicated by 'Abdu'l-Bahá .

At Shoghi Effendi's direction, his secretary wrote on his behalf: "... it has nothing to do with unity in the Cause; if a man cuts a cancer out of his body to preserve his health and very life, no one would suggest that for the sake of unity it should be reintroduced into the otherwise healthy organism. On the contrary, what was once a part of him has so radically changed as to have become a poison."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 28, 1944: Principles of Bahá'í Administration, pp. 22-23; Lights of Guidance, p. 184)

As explained in detail in the Master's Last Tablet to America, this is a spiritual protection for the unity of the Cause:

"In short, the point is this: 'Abdu'l-Bahá is extremely kind, but when the disease is leprosy, what am I to do? Just as in bodily diseases we must prevent intermingling and infection and put into effect sanitary laws -- because the infectious physical diseases uproot the foundation of humanity; likewise one must protect and safeguard the blessed souls from the breaths and fatal spiritual diseases; otherwise violation, like the plague, will become a contagion and all will perish. In the early days, after the Ascension of the Blessed Beauty, the center of violation was alone; little by little the infection spread; and this was due to companionship and association." (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 438)

In that Tablet, the Master points out the quotations from Jesus Christ in the Gospel that support this same action.

golha wrote:2. Furughiyya , Bahá'u'lláh 's daughter from Gowhar( His third wife) was excommunicated by 'Abdu'l-Bahá .

As to Furughiyyih:

"After the ascension of Bahá'u'lláh, Siyyid 'Ali and his wife Furughiyyih sided with Mirza Muhammad-'Ali and rose up in opposition to 'Abdu'l-Bahá. After inflicting much pain upon the Centre of the Covenant for several years, Siyyid 'Ali repented of his iniquitous deeds and the Master forgave him. But his repentance was short-lived; he returned to his den again and resumed his odious activities against 'Abdu'l-Bahá. It was the members of his family who were chiefly responsible for delivering the most painful blows upon the person of Shoghi Effendi during his ministry. They caused havoc in the family of the Master and tore it apart altogether." (Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, p. 145)

You also wrote:
golha wrote:3. Shoghi Effendi excommunicated his father, Mirza Hadi Afnan and his brothers and sisters :
Ruh-Angiz , Mihr-Angiz, Husayn and Riyadh, whom were titled Effendi by 'Abdu'l-Bahá .

Though this is often quoted, I believe it is mistaken; I do not believe that there is any indication in Baha'i literature that Shoghi Effendi expelled either of his parents from the Cause of God. Shoghi Effendi's parents are both buried in the Baha'i Cemetery at the foot of Mount Carmel.

As to his siblings and his cousins, because of the incessant opposition of the Covenant-breakers such as Furughiyyih and others, and because these siblings and cousins disobeyed the command to shun the breakers of the Covenant, the entire family turned against Shoghi Effendi. The "Effendi" added to their names was no longer true. As Shoghi Effendi wrote to the Persian believers, the Ghosn-i-Akbar (Most Great Branch, Mirza Muhammad Ali) became the Hatam-i-Akbar (Most Great Firewood) when he turned against Abdu'l-Baha.

The cutting of a diseased portion of the body, formerly healthy and useful, is a radical act, a last act, to preserve the life of the organism. It is what Jesus referred to when He said to cut off the hand or pluck the eye. It is shameful that these relatives all disobeyed so grievously. But the act of Shoghi Effendi was not shameful; it was an expression of his highest function as protector of the Cause. As the Guardian's secretary wrote on his behalf to a National Spiritual Assembly:

"The Guardian feels that one of the best antidotes to those - Sohrab or others - who seek to undermine the faith of the believers, especially by harping on the subject of excommunication, is to place in their hands a [copy of] "God Passes By". For in that book he (the Guardian) has clearly pointed out that the Cause of God has always been attacked from within, and that, beginning in the days of the Báb, the "Sea of Truth" has over and over cast out its spiritually dead. It must do this, even as the body seeks to rid itself of poisons so as to preserve the health of the entire organism." (The Light of Divine Guidance v I, p. 136)

I changed the formatting and instead put quotation boxes around the quotes, so that its easier to see what is being referred to
-british_bahai, 9th Sep 2007.

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:27 am
by brettz9
I think these words of his wife, Amatu'l-Bahá Ruhíyyih Khánum, also sheds quite a bit of perspective on the issue:

In relation to the family of the Master; he showed a love and kindness to the family that I do not think Bahá'ís realise. He said "My family have already been raised so high by a member of it having been made Guardian that I must compensate to my aunts and uncles and cousins for what they have not received. He passed over his own mother and father and brothers and sisters and went to the home of his aunt and lived there; he made his uncle his representative, not his father; he made his cousins his secretaries, not his brothers. He would not even accept a drink from the hand of his mother - only from his aunt during those months when he was so prostrated after the passing of the Master...

He had an exquisitely loving nature. Years of suffering went before each of those cables putting the members of the Master's family out of the Cause. Whet they did to him personally he always endured. He suffered from the activities of the covenant breakers and from sufferings of Bahá'ís. He would wrap himself up in his quilt and not even take a sip of water for 24 hours or sometimes even for 48 hours. He would sometimes loose 2 or 3 kilos weight in those times.

If you have an idea of these sufferings you can understand why his heart stopped suddenly.

(Attributed to? Ruhiyyih Khanum, ... nguage=All )

I also have seen nothing about him expelling his parents.

all the best,

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:48 pm
by Dorumerosaer
brettz9 wrote:I also have seen nothing about him expelling his parents.

I hasten to add that I am not saying that the Guardian's parents were close to him at the end of his ministry. However, I am under the impression that the Guardian announced to the Baha'i world when he expelled the members of the family from the Cause, because it was such a significant event; and I don't know of any such messages regarding his parents, unlike those related to his siblings and cousins.

Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:44 pm
by brettz9
Even if they ought to have been declared as such (by associating with Covenant-breakers, etc.), it may have been that for the dignity of the Cause, he did not formally announce it, given the very special duties to parents in the Faith.

A misunderstanding apparently

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:39 am
by brettz9
Hello Golha and all,

No, the reference to something like a spiritual disease is only about the very few who have been declared as "Covenant-breakers" by our highest institution (in a process described in our own Writings).

Covenant-breakers are people who claim to be Baha'is yet try to claim another line of leadership within our Faith. Baha'u'llah was very emphatic about unity, and so long as our Administration (which was set up according to the instructions of Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha, His appointed Successor) would allow Baha'is to associate with such people who tried to claim they were instead the leaders others should follow, then we would have chaos and disunity.

If a worker in a company insists on making a claim that he is the real CEO of the company, of course, any reasonable company would eject him. It is not that such a company has prejudice. It is necessary to maintain its own functioning.


Re: A misunderstanding apparently

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:15 am
by British_Bahai
brettz9 wrote:If a worker in a company insists on making a claim that he is the real CEO of the company, of course, any reasonable company would eject him. It is not that such a company has prejudice. It is necessary to maintain its own functioning.


excellent analogy, i think more people understand it when u put it like that

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:39 pm
by Irish
Shoghi Effendi didn't announce to the world that his parents were Covenant-breakers, but they were. When Shogh Effendi excommunicated his cousins and brother and sister, none of his family were supposed to continue communicating with these Covenant-breakers. But Shoghi Effendi's parents didn't obey him and continued to communicate and associate with the Covenant-breakers, clearly breaking the wishes of Shoghi Effendi and Abdu'l-Baha. Therefore, they were Covenant-breakers. Who knows why Shoghi Effendi didn't announce it. It obviously was extremely painful for him. We have no idea of how difficult it must have been.