Prophecy-Fulfilled website on BCI - very bad

All research or scholarship questions
Keyvan
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:58 am
Location: Los Angeles

Prophecy-Fulfilled website on BCI - very bad

Postby Keyvan » Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:05 am

In my opinion this site is absolutely awful.

The guy who created it obviously is one of a small batch of Baha'i's who has this fanatical appreciation of the notion that Mormonism somehow has some legitimacy in the Baha'i Faith - an idea which is completely unsupported by any Baha'i text.

At the very best, a pilgrim's note - a recording of what the Guardian said - relates that the Mormon founder Joseph Smith was a non prophet but rather a "seer" and some people have interpreted that as a divine communicator of sorts. To say that to some degree Joseph Smith had some mystic premonition of Baha'u'llah's coming and mixed these visions in with his own made up stories and came up with Mormonism.

This creator, Joel Smith, has thus posted articles trying to relate Mormonism prophecy to the Baha'i Faith as well as Native American prophecy (Mormon beliefs are much rooted in claims about Native American origins).

Now whether or not these ideas are valid to some degree or another is not my objection. Rather it is the fact that this is pure dogma, to put it simply. Even if any of it is valid, there is a reason why none of this was not mentioned in the writings.

The fact is that Mormonism is a religion that is written off by most seekers and scholars as "out there" and obviously false. It makes extraordinary claims that contradict science, concerning a "Jewish origin of Native Americans," and Adam and Eve coming from Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Mormonism is seen as the example of a religion that is so obviously false that it goes to show just how far a false religion can go in popularity and establishment.

It's hard enough for us as Baha'i's to try to explain accurately the relation of the Baha'i Faith to religions of the past. Many falsely believe we are some sort of unitarians or new age conglomeration of religions. We struggle to correct this understanding and explain we believe these specific religions of a common origin but have dogmatically deviated from what would otherwise be perfect unity (the only variation being specific needs of time and place). Joel Smith is making this far harder by adding a religion which we do not even ascribe to into the mix and trying to make it appear as though we consider it legitimate.

I have personally tried to reason with Joel Smith through email. He sent what suspiciously seemed like canned email he sends to any Baha'i who objects - which went on about how it can cause Mormons to be interested in the faith. My response was that the cost of hooking in a few Mormon's was deterring away countless other seekers and scholars who get turned off by the mere fact that we try to not only hold validity to, but relate ourselves to a religion which is so laughably false. It makes Baha'i's look as though we are trying to relate ourselves to any religion on the planet - even though we are specific about which religions come from true Messengers, and which are what Baha'u'llah describes as a product of "human perversity."

I kind of find it a shame that this is the only such site that is apparent on the Internet. All us Baha'i's online and this is the only comprehensive site about prophecy fulfillment? As handy as that site can be in some aspects, I will never ever refer that site to a seeker or a scholar. I would be too ashamed and embarrassed that it bears a section about "mormon prophecies." Not only is it misleading, but in my attempt to try and correct this misunderstanding, by explaining why Joel Smith chose to include such a section, I would be effective acknowledging a dogmatic division in the Baha'i community - as small as it may be.

I wish I had time to make such a site. It would be great if we had a section of Baha'i-Library about Prophecy Fulfillment which we could all contribute and build up, without this profane perversion of our beliefs added on to suit the agenda of an individual.

Fadl
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:55 am
Location: somewhere "in this immensity"

Postby Fadl » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:08 am

Hi Keyvan,

I don't think its bad at all.

I was raised a Mormon, and although these "Mormon Prophecies" had nothing to do with how I came to accept Baha'u'llah, and while I do not believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of any kind, the prophecies are absolutely fascinating!

I don't have an explanation for how a non prophet could make such great prophecy, however, I don't feel a need to make one either. Regardless of what these prophecies have to do with the Mormon Church or its founder, it is extremely interesting, even if it is only a one in a million purely chance phenomenon.

I don't think Joel Smith is suggesting that Joseph Smith is a prophet or seer anymore than he is claiming it about Native American seers, or the seers of Seventh Day Adventism or any other.

He is merely documenting a phenomenon that does seem to exist in many cultures and religious traditions without needing to comment on what the whole thing means.

iqtTcgUSh

Prophecy-Fulfilled website on BCI - Mormonism

Postby iqtTcgUSh » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:17 pm

Dear Keyvan,

There are a number of articles on the Baha'i Faith and Mormonism which you should read (two in World Order and one in the Journal of Baha'i Studies). In them, you will see that a pilgrim reported that Shoghi Effendi called Joseph Smith a "seer" (which does not mean Manifestation or prophet, just a person who may have had some inspiration). Likewise, the Universal House of Justice has stated in one of its letters that Joseph Smith was inspired by the spirit emanating from the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

From a broader perspective, I think it is absolutely counterproductive for Baha'is to spend time denigrating other religious groups by calling them "false." Rather, we should advocate and explain the teachings of Baha'u'llah and offer Baha'u'llah Himself as the counter-weight. When one knows Baha'u'llah, one sees that Joseph Smith does not compare to Him in any way. But to dismiss the Latter Day Saint (Mormon) tradition as wholly "false" is to throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is the very same thing that rigidly orthodox Christians and Muslims do when attacking the Baha'i Faith. We should not become like them. The Latter Day Saints are wonderful people and they have, according to Shoghi Effendi, many teachings similar to our own. We should therefore show respect for their tradition while clearly explaining that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this age and that His teachings are the standard of spiritual reality.

This is the whole point to Ruhi Book 1 "Reflections on the Life of the Spirit," especially the first section on Understanding the Baha'i Writings. We come to understand the truth by reading, understanding, and pondering all that is in the scriptures. I give authority to the scriptures named in the Baha'i writings and consider them the standard. But I also make use of spiritual insights from other religious and spiritual writings, wherever they may be. That includes the Book of Mormon, even if it was simply the product of Joseph Smith's mind and environment. By approaching other religious and spiritual writings in this way, you will have a better chance of reaching people.

I still remember the story of the born-again Christian wife of a Baha'i I know. She often went to Baha'i events, even though Jesus was supreme for her. But at one meeting, an elderly Iranian Baha'i berated this devoted Christian woman, saying "What's all this talk about Jesus, Jesus, Jesus? You should forget Him. Baha'u'llah is the one you must follow." The result was that this Christian stopped ever coming back to any Baha'i activity and is now quite likely forever unwilling to ever give a hearing to the possibility that Baha'u'llah is the return of her Lord. Gracious God! Jesus is one of the Manifestations of God. The Baha'i should have praised her for her devotion to Christ and then gently opened the way for her to find the connections between Baha'u'llah's life and that of Jesus. Go more gently, friends.

Bill

Keyvan
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:58 am
Location: Los Angeles

Postby Keyvan » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:06 am

Sean H. wrote:Dear Keyvan. I am building such a site to cover prophecy and a whole plethora of topics.

It is not ready yet, and its creation has been delayed due to me starting a junior youth / youth group.

I will attempt to get it done, and when I'm ready to release some of it to the world, I'll let you know (or ask me later in case that I might forget :D )


As a side note though. I don't see a problem with talking about the Mormon Prophecies. I have never seen Joseph Smith ever said to be a seer except on Covenant breaker websites.

I do not believe that I saw anywhere on the Prophecy Fulfilled website that Joel Smith said that Joseph Smith as a seer.

I think the Joseph Smith's prophecies referring to the Bab and Baha'u'llah are compelling. Of course it's up to everyone to think for themselves.




Hi Sean,

Joel Smith does not mention it on his website but he believes it - I know this because he told me so in personal communication.

He positions "Mormon Prophecies" as not only there, but juxtaposes it next to "Islamic Prophecies" "Christian Prophecies" etc etc. As though Mormonism is suddenly adopted as a Divine religion by Baha'i's when this is clearly not true.

This degrades Baha'i beliefs to that of Unitarian philosophy (no disrespect to Unitarians, its just completely different from what Baha'i's actually believe).

Keyvan
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:58 am
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Prophecy-Fulfilled website on BCI - Mormonism

Postby Keyvan » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:30 am

wpc09 wrote:Dear Keyvan,

There are a number of articles on the Baha'i Faith and Mormonism which you should read (two in World Order and one in the Journal of Baha'i Studies). In them, you will see that a pilgrim reported that Shoghi Effendi called Joseph Smith a "seer" (which does not mean Manifestation or prophet, just a person who may have had some inspiration). Likewise, the Universal House of Justice has stated in one of its letters that Joseph Smith was inspired by the spirit emanating from the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

From a broader perspective, I think it is absolutely counterproductive for Baha'is to spend time denigrating other religious groups by calling them "false." Rather, we should advocate and explain the teachings of Baha'u'llah and offer Baha'u'llah Himself as the counter-weight. When one knows Baha'u'llah, one sees that Joseph Smith does not compare to Him in any way. But to dismiss the Latter Day Saint (Mormon) tradition as wholly "false" is to throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is the very same thing that rigidly orthodox Christians and Muslims do when attacking the Baha'i Faith. We should not become like them. The Latter Day Saints are wonderful people and they have, according to Shoghi Effendi, many teachings similar to our own. We should therefore show respect for their tradition while clearly explaining that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this age and that His teachings are the standard of spiritual reality.

This is the whole point to Ruhi Book 1 "Reflections on the Life of the Spirit," especially the first section on Understanding the Baha'i Writings. We come to understand the truth by reading, understanding, and pondering all that is in the scriptures. I give authority to the scriptures named in the Baha'i writings and consider them the standard. But I also make use of spiritual insights from other religious and spiritual writings, wherever they may be. That includes the Book of Mormon, even if it was simply the product of Joseph Smith's mind and environment. By approaching other religious and spiritual writings in this way, you will have a better chance of reaching people.

I still remember the story of the born-again Christian wife of a Baha'i I know. She often went to Baha'i events, even though Jesus was supreme for her. But at one meeting, an elderly Iranian Baha'i berated this devoted Christian woman, saying "What's all this talk about Jesus, Jesus, Jesus? You should forget Him. Baha'u'llah is the one you must follow." The result was that this Christian stopped ever coming back to any Baha'i activity and is now quite likely forever unwilling to ever give a hearing to the possibility that Baha'u'llah is the return of her Lord. Gracious God! Jesus is one of the Manifestations of God. The Baha'i should have praised her for her devotion to Christ and then gently opened the way for her to find the connections between Baha'u'llah's life and that of Jesus. Go more gently, friends.

Bill



Hi Bill. I have to say I wish you read my whole post. If you did you would have seen that I referred to that pilgrims note and have studied this attempt by a few Baha'i's at trying to bridge a relationship with Mormonism and the Baha'i' Faith the way we have with Divine religions of the past.

I guess you are one of those particualr Baha'i's. No disrespect to you, it's just something I do not agree with, and I feel the attempts to do so are doing more harm than good in our attempt to be taken seriously by greater society, even though it may appeal to some Mormons and Unitarians.

I have researched Mormonism, and even been to one of their "Family Home Evenings." Yes they are great people as you say, but that is not what I was objecting to.

I elaborate from my previous post - even if said pilgrims note is true, and the interpretation of that as a divine communicator of sorts is true (first of all thats a couple of "if's" for a modern day hadith), it should not be promoted anyway. It is not in any authoritative Baha'i writing, and it is for this reason that we are warned about pilgrim's notes. In fact, the writings about pilgrim's notes explain that at best we can use them to clarify and share ideas among each other as believers. So of course to actually use them to teach, let alone for something so radical as this is out there.

Now as for teaching Mormon's, lets not forget that every religious sect has deviated from their Messenger's original message. The common source with Mormon's is not Joseph Smith - it is CHRIST.

By this logic that you are suggesting, we may as well try to bridge prophecies of the relatively recent era of Ismaili Imam's, or Dhali Lama's, or Rishi's, and Pope's or the prophecies of the false administrations of any religious sect. Mormonism is a sect of Christianity and in teaching the Baha'i faith should not be treated as any more - otherwise we give a false representation of our beliefs, and end up not being taken seriously by the majority of seekers and academics that basically consider Mormonism a joke.

Seriously, Baha'i to Baha'i, how many times have we had to put up with the questions like "oh how can you agree with Hinduism if they believe in all these deities, and Buddhism that believes in reincarnation, etc etc, and say they are of the same God, blah blah" and of course we answer these questions and explain how we believe they came from true Messengers but deviated from their source. Now thats hard enough...but its manageable, and day by day scholars and seekers are seeing these parallels, and chronic deviations from original scripture - and likewise Baha'i's and Baha'i beliefs about other religions gain more credibility and legitimacy in their eyes.

Now to add MORMONISM in the mix, its not just that its harder to do because of the fact that they contradict so much science, and its arguable that the whole story of the Book of Mormon was based off of a novel written in the 1820's, its not even about that. It's about the fact that it is not recognized as having any Divine heritage, not officially - only by some interpretations of a non authoritative recording of something the Guardian said.
That is, such a handful of Baha'i's who share this belief, like Joel Smith, are Baha'i apologetics for a faith which is not even recognized as having a unique origin by Baha'i beliefs.

BruceDLimber
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:34 pm
Location: Rockville, Maryland, USA

Postby BruceDLimber » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:22 am

Greetings!

While I'll happily stipulate that most (if not all) Mormons are wonderful people, in my view there are two fatal flaws in LDS teachings:

    The first is its historic racism. While this is something that has now apparently been rejected such that the church has move away from it, I can't see any true religion's original teachings espousing racism, which clearlly happened in this case!

    Also, while this isn't widely publicized, the LDS teachings are in fact polytheistic, with each person having the potential to "become a God" and rule a universe. This is also the direct opposite of Baha'i teaching.


So while I commend Mormons' dedication to loving families, I'm afraid some of their teachings cause me to think "Wrong number."

Peace,

Bruce

British_Bahai
Posts: 0
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:27 am

Postby British_Bahai » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:16 pm

BruceDLimber wrote:Also, while this isn't widely publicized, the LDS teachings are in fact polytheistic, with each person having the potential to "become a God" and rule a universe. This is also the direct opposite of Baha'i teaching.

Wow, I didnt know this.

iqtTcgUSh

Mormonism, etc.

Postby iqtTcgUSh » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:25 pm

I want to assure Keyvan that I read his original post in its entirety. I want to assure Bruce Limber that I agree with his critiques of problematical Mormon doctrine (along with which I would also include plural marriage as practiced in the 19th century, and the patriarchal hierarchy/all-male governance at all levels).

I do not think that the Baha'i community should make the Baha'i teachings themselves appear to agree with these Mormon teachings, nor do I think we should make any statements that would lead anyone to surmise that Baha'is think Joseph Smith had the station of a prophet (Shoghi Effendi said that Smith was neither a major nor minor prophet).

However, I think we can make bridges to other people's faith perspectives in a courteous and thoughtful way. When Saint Paul was preaching the gospel of Christ in one city in Asia minor, he saw a monument "To the unknown god." Rather than berate the ignorance of the people who had erected this, he said to them "that unknown God I now proclaim to you." Likewise, many people with some kind of spiritual claim may be led, unbeknownst to themselves, and not through any process of divine revelation, to speak truths that point to Baha'u'llah, for He is Almighty and may do what He wishes. Joseph Smith was part of a current in Christianity in the 19th century. William Miller was also part of that current and predicted Christ's return in 1844 using his own understanding of certain prophecies. He was also wrong about a lot of things. Should we reject him because he was part of a particular current of Christianity that had a lot of things wrong? After all, a great deal of Baha'i teaching to Christians is based on Miller's method of prophetic exegesis.

Mormon teachings include peculiar doctrines and some distortions of Christianity. But such distortions occurred even in the orthodoxy in the great religious tradition from which it sprang, such as the Christian doctrine of original sin, the absolute uniqueness of Jesus, etc. I think we should be cautious about being overly harsh and rigid in judging the spiritual traditions of others, but still find ways to connect with them and their faith traditions without compromising faithfulness to our own.

I have had LDS members in my study circles. They know in my home and from their experience with Baha'is that they and their faith receive courtesy and respect. What I do is make the real connections between their understanding and the Baha'i teachings. I frankly acknowledge when a Baha'i teaching contradicts the Mormon teaching and explain that the Ruhi study circle involves study and understanding of the Baha'i writings, which I encourage them to read morning and evening.

Also, I have to accept the Universal House of Justice's statement that Joseph Smith was subject to the spiritual currents unloosed by the Twin Manifestations: "As for the status of Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Faith, he is not considered by Bahá'ís to be a prophet, minor or otherwise. But of course he was a religious teacher sensitive to the spiritual currents flowing in the early 19th century directly from the appearance of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh and the Revelation of Their Messages of hope and Divine Guidance." (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 511) On that basis, I am appreciative of Joseph Smith's contributions to the development of people who have not yet become ready to recognize the return of Jesus in Baha'u'llah.

I think all of this falls under the umbrella of the guardian's encouragement to make connections between the Baha'i teachings and contemporary teachings, philosophy, movements, etc. What the owner of the "Prophecy Fulfilled" website chooses to do should be of little concern so long as it does not represent Mormonism as a separate divine revelation on a par with that of Christ or Baha'u'llah. He also includes prophecies relating to native American Indian religion. In that regard, it is important to remember that 'Abdu'l-Baha stated in one of His tablets that "Undoubtedly, in ancient times, the call of God was raised in the Americas." If we were to simply dismiss native traditions as being false, we would prevent the indigenous hearer from even giving ear to our belief that Baha'u'llah was promised to them. I personally think Deganawidah and White Buffalo Calf Woman received divine revelation or inspiration of some kind (I do not know if they were Manifestations or lesser prophets - a point that is really immaterial to their importance to native people and to the sacredness of what they communicated). I do know that Baha'u'llah is the Beloved of all hearts and that God chose to speak to His people in many ways to lead them to this Day and the Greatest Name.

Fadl
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:55 am
Location: somewhere "in this immensity"

Postby Fadl » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:24 pm

WPC09,

Thanks for your insightful contribution to this thread, I think you have made points that are intelligent and in the true spirit of our faith.

Being raised a Mormon, I have the warmest feelings for Mormons, and find them to be a very good and moral people. I feel that even though Mormon teachings, doctrines, or the historical and biographical facts of its founder may have problems, it doesn't mean that the Mormon "prophecies" themselves are not worthy of attention.

As a new Baha'i, I wondered if Joseph Smith might not have been called by God to prepare for the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, much in the same way as Ahmad and Asahi had been. While I don't think that anymore, and I don't think that Joseph Smith passes the litmus test to be accounted among such holy souls, nevertheless, the Mormon prophecies of the coming of Baha'u'llah are quite possibly the most stark of any I have read anywhere.

How could this be so? I'm not sure. In addition the the words of the Guardian which you mentioned, I often think of these words of Baha'u'llah: "This is the Mercy that hath encompassed the entire creation, the Day whereon the grace of God hath permeated and pervaded all things" (Gleanings, 308).

When I think about it this way, it becomes possible, in my mind, for the message to go out in a multitude of ways that we probably could never conceive of, or even hope to account for.

It is also extremely important, as you have said, that we seek to find unity and include all people in our faith. Calling one persons religious teacher a false prophet or to dismiss an entire religious system that has been the source of inspiration and virtue for that individual seems like a bad strategy, which violates the spirit and teachings of our faith and who we are as a people.

I think sometimes we risk becoming too dogmatic. I often hear friends talking about the "9 major" religions all being from God, when, our writings state explicitly and in numerous places that we don't know how many Manifestations there have been, and that God has always given His guidance to humanity at all times. Sometimes people try and list in chronological order these 9 manifestations. I even tried to do it myself once, when I was a new Baha'i. I couldn't do it, and if any one should try, you'll soon find out it is quite an impossible thing to do; and for good reason! We don't have such a firm grasp on even very recent history, let alone those things which happen to predate the last millenia or two.

When we talk about progressive revelation, I think it is more accurate and more in the spirit of our faith to give the "big 9" as examples to explain progressive revelation, but we should make it clear that we don't know who the other Manifestations were, and that we are not making it as a claim which is all inclusive or exclusive.

BruceDLimber
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:34 pm
Location: Rockville, Maryland, USA

Postby BruceDLimber » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:40 am

Hi, Loren!

Thanks for your excellent comments! :-)

As to the "nine religions," it should be remembered that in fact there are at present nine LIVING religions, i.e., religions that still have followers today! There have been many other Divine Revelations in the past that are now extinct, such as those of Hud and Salih.

And the fact that there are currently nine such religions has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with the significance of the number nine for Baha'is, or the number of doors on our temples! This is pure coincidence.

Best regards, :-)

Bruce

Fadl
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:55 am
Location: somewhere "in this immensity"

Postby Fadl » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:43 pm

BruceDLimber wrote:Hi, Loren!

Thanks for your excellent comments! :-)

As to the "nine religions," it should be remembered that in fact there are at present nine LIVING religions, i.e., religions that still have followers today! There have been many other Divine Revelations in the past that are now extinct, such as those of Hud and Salih.

And the fact that there are currently nine such religions has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with the significance of the number nine for Baha'is, or the number of doors on our temples! This is pure coincidence.

Best regards, :-)

Bruce



Hi Bruce!

Yes, it is true what you say, that the significance of nine has nothing to do with the number of Manifestations or religions, but rather, 9 is the numerical value of baha', the numerical value of the letter 'ta (the first letter of Teheran) and it is the highest single digit, which encompasses all the other digits, and is a symbol of completeness and perfection.

As for your other assertion, that there are 9 major living religions, I think that is one of the things that Baha'is say but really shouldn't, because it is highly debatable at best and not really true at all at worst.

First, in making this statement, it is necessary to call Christianity one religion, when if fact it is a collective term for a variety of different religions in which no two Christians can be found to agree on which one truly is or isn't Christian. The same thing can be said about the sects of Islam. True, all the varieties of Christianity and Islam can be linked to Christ and Muhammad, they are not the same faith.

Second, I'm not completely sure you can call the religion of the Bab (if you want to count it as the eighth religion and as being separate from the Baha'i religion) as a living religion, since it is virtually non-existent and in decline.

Furthermore, there are living communities of Sabians in existence, that are at least (if not more) living than the Babi faith of today is. There are many more such arguments which can be made, and I don't think its necessary to go into it deeper to make my point.

At any rate, it doesn't serve anyone well if we look at our list of nine and then decide that everything else doesn't make the list and that anyone following one of those non-listed faiths (such as Sikhs, Daoist, Shintos, Zains, etc., etc., etc.,) has not been following one of the true and correct nine paths available to mankind.

BruceDLimber
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:34 pm
Location: Rockville, Maryland, USA

Postby BruceDLimber » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:41 am

Hi again!

As I understand it, the Sabaean and Babi faiths still have a few followers and so count on the list. And the others you mention we generally see either as subordinate parts of the great religions like Buddhism or as secular philosophies rather than religions (Shinto would be an example of this).

And we basically count everything derived from a given Divine Messenger as a single religion, which covers (for example) all the subgroups of Christianity.

Best, :-)

Bruce

Fadl
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:55 am
Location: somewhere "in this immensity"

Postby Fadl » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:56 am

BruceDLimber wrote:Hi again!

As I understand it, the Sabaean and Babi faiths still have a few followers and so count on the list. And the others you mention we generally see either as subordinate parts of the great religions like Buddhism or as secular philosophies rather than religions (Shinto would be an example of this).

And we basically count everything derived from a given Divine Messenger as a single religion, which covers (for example) all the subgroups of Christianity.

Best, :-)

Bruce


Ok, let's see! :-)

Sticking to your assertion that "we basically count everything derived from a given Divine Messenger as a single religion" do we count groups such as BUPC, Orthodox, Remites, and others as being under the Baha'i religion? Because I don't consider it that way, and believe that there is only one Baha'i faith, and that those groups are not included. I'm not sure if we can have one assertion for ourselves and another for everyone else.

Anyway, this "9 main religions/Manifestations" is as far as I know only mentioned in the Kitab-i-Hearsay.

P.S., since Babi and Sabean communities are in attrition, (as are probably Zoroastrian) what will become of our 9 in the future?

iqtTcgUSh

Prophecy-Fulfilled website on BCI - very bad

Postby iqtTcgUSh » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:36 am

Dear Loren,

The statement about nine living religions is not hearsay. It comes from some letters written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi:

"The number nine which in itself is the number of perfection is considered by the Bahá'ís as sacred because it is symbolic of the perfection of the Bahá'í Revelation which constitutes the ninth in the line of existing religions, the latest and fullest Revelation which mankind has ever known. The eighth is the religion of the Báb, and the remaining seven are: Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the religion of the Sabeans. These religions are not the only true religions that have appeared in the world, but are the only ones still existing. There have always been divine Prophets and Messengers, to many of whom the Qur'án refers. But the only ones existing are those mentioned above."

(From letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, July 28, 1936: Bahá'í News, No. 105, February 1937, p. 2) (Lights of Guidance, p. 414)


"First, regarding the significance of the number nine; its importance as a symbol used so often in various connections by the believers lies in three facts: first, it symbolizes the nine great world religions of which we have any definite historical knowledge, including the Bábí and Bahá'í Revelations; second, it represents the number of perfection, being the highest single number; third, it is the numerical value of the word 'Baha'"

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 9, 1939) (Lights of Guidance, p. 414)

As a student of religion, I disagree with Shoghi Effendi's statement from the point of view of real religious experience. Sikhs, for instance, would not respond well to the idea that they do not have a living religion. But I think what Shoghi Effendi was saying is that there are nine living religions within the schema of progressive revelation from Manifestations of God. Others, such as Sikhism, are either the results of secondary inspiration, sectarian movements within other religions, or creative solutions to a social problem (the Sikhs were the result of Guru Nanak's specific inspired solution to the Hindu/Muslim divide in the Punjab).

We often get into trouble by trying to see some of these statements as absolutes. If you look carefully at the Kitab-i-Iqan, you can see that Baha'u'llah refers to Manifestations, Messengers, Prophets, Holy Ones, etc. I am of the view that these constitute a mixture of different functions and that not all Holy Ones are necessarily Manifestations of God (neither are all claimants to revelation or inspiration necessarily either Manifestations or holy).

But we should not validate individual sects of the great religions - only the great traditions themselves. But we also have to accept, given the lack of a binding covenant in the previous religions regarding authoritative leadership and interpretation, that the religions of the past motivated diverse responses to the divine message. A Baha'i cannot count covenant-breakers as legitimate members of the Faith, given the explicit power of the Covenant.

Fadl
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:55 am
Location: somewhere "in this immensity"

Re: Prophecy-Fulfilled website on BCI - very bad

Postby Fadl » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:54 pm

wpc09 wrote:Dear Loren,

The statement about nine living religions is not hearsay. It comes from some letters written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi:

"The number nine which in itself is the number of perfection is considered by the Bahá'ís as sacred because it is symbolic of the perfection of the Bahá'í Revelation which constitutes the ninth in the line of existing religions, the latest and fullest Revelation which mankind has ever known. The eighth is the religion of the Báb, and the remaining seven are: Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the religion of the Sabeans. These religions are not the only true religions that have appeared in the world, but are the only ones still existing. There have always been divine Prophets and Messengers, to many of whom the Qur'án refers. But the only ones existing are those mentioned above."

(From letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, July 28, 1936: Bahá'í News, No. 105, February 1937, p. 2) (Lights of Guidance, p. 414)


"First, regarding the significance of the number nine; its importance as a symbol used so often in various connections by the believers lies in three facts: first, it symbolizes the nine great world religions of which we have any definite historical knowledge, including the Bábí and Bahá'í Revelations; second, it represents the number of perfection, being the highest single number; third, it is the numerical value of the word 'Baha'"

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 9, 1939) (Lights of Guidance, p. 414)

As a student of religion, I disagree with Shoghi Effendi's statement from the point of view of real religious experience. Sikhs, for instance, would not respond well to the idea that they do not have a living religion. But I think what Shoghi Effendi was saying is that there are nine living religions within the schema of progressive revelation from Manifestations of God. Others, such as Sikhism, are either the results of secondary inspiration, sectarian movements within other religions, or creative solutions to a social problem (the Sikhs were the result of Guru Nanak's specific inspired solution to the Hindu/Muslim divide in the Punjab).

We often get into trouble by trying to see some of these statements as absolutes. If you look carefully at the Kitab-i-Iqan, you can see that Baha'u'llah refers to Manifestations, Messengers, Prophets, Holy Ones, etc. I am of the view that these constitute a mixture of different functions and that not all Holy Ones are necessarily Manifestations of God (neither are all claimants to revelation or inspiration necessarily either Manifestations or holy).

But we should not validate individual sects of the great religions - only the great traditions themselves. But we also have to accept, given the lack of a binding covenant in the previous religions regarding authoritative leadership and interpretation, that the religions of the past motivated diverse responses to the divine message. A Baha'i cannot count covenant-breakers as legitimate members of the Faith, given the explicit power of the Covenant.



Thanks WPC, for taking the time to do the research and bring it here, I was being a bit lazy before, I must admit!

The selections you have posted really show things in the proper light, because the 9 are delineated in such a way as to be exclusivist in making the claim. For example, "...of which we have any definite historical knowledge" makes it clear that our historical knowledge is limited and that there could be others of which our knowledge is lacking, or at least fuzzy (not definite).

Your other point about "Manifestations, Messengers, Prophets, Holy Ones, etc" is well stated, and I couldn't agree with you more on this point. While we may not be able to account for all religions under the big 9, or properly classify them or categorize them, does not in anyway mean we can throw them out or label them false or uninspired. It is not difficult to imagine many inspired or enlightened souls throughout history and all over the world, who were sources of wisdom and enlightenment who were not aspiring or intending to be universal. Baha'u'llah has even mentioned and lauded certain Philosophers, calling Socrates "wise, accomplished and righteous" and Plato "divine" (Tablets of Baha'u'llah, 146).

I think you are right that we should not, and even must not, see these sayings about 9 religions/manifestations as absolutes. Rather, what we need to do is seek to find unity in as many ways as we can. In the Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Baha'u'llah states:

"We fain would hope that the people of Baha may be guided by the blessed words: 'Say: all things are of God.' This exalted utterance is like unto water for quenching the fire of hate and enmity which smouldereth within the hearts and breasts of men. By this single utterance contending peoples and kindreds will attain the light of true unity. Verily He speaketh the truth and leadeth the way" (222).


Return to “Discussion”