"orders of true faqír do exist"

All research or scholarship questions
onepence
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"orders of true faqír do exist"

Postby onepence » Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:53 am

looking for thoughts on selflesness

////////
////////
//////


The concept of poverty in Islam is thus commented upon by Bausani:


The concept of poverty is very ancient in Islám and goes back to the very frugal and sober ways of the Prophet himself, because of his direct contact with the simple customs of the Arabs of the desert. According to a famous, frequently quoted by mystics, hadît., he said al-faqru fahrí (`poverty is my vaunt'). However, Faqr was often interpreted as a metaphor, namely as not having any personal merit, being nothing, the poorest of all the poor ones in front of the supreme wealth of the Wealthy One; however orders of true faqír do exist ... . (Author's translation of L'Islam 93)

//////////

what is the author referring to
"orders of true faqír do exist"

/////

also it appears ... at least to a certain degree of personal understanding
selflesnes revolves around obediance to The Covenant ... thus if we see one in obediance than that person can be described as bein selfless

even if he is a Ruler issuing decrees 24/7 as long as the Ruler is being obediant within The Covenant than he can be described as bein selfless

yet

a person can not describe himself as bein selfless
for as soon as he describes a quality to himself
well ... the gnostics readin this note understand this dilimea
*smile*

this then tends to discredit a line of thought known as
"Empirical Selflessness"

but could open up some profound scholary discourse on our Covenant

o Beloved
the thin lines of Thy flowing robe
bear ample testamont to our poverty

should we sing today
or quietly stand in the pouring rain

no matter my Beloved
no matter at all

for my heart is a flutter
O My Beloved
O what a Day

*smile*

///

so ... smile ... in brief selflessness has been covered within the Baha'i writings ...

i think it would be interesting to have a cross comparission study of selflesness as expressed through religion through out the ages ...

Christian concepts
Islamic Concepts
Babi and Baha'I concepts

anybody who wishes to add some selfless dialogue within this thread
would be greatly apprecicted

tia

*smile*

oneness
dh

onepence
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Postby onepence » Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:26 pm

orders of true faqír
equates to
the Administrative Order
of Baha'u'llah

yes

radiant smile

British_Bahai
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Re: "orders of true faqír do exist"

Postby British_Bahai » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:23 am

onepence wrote:The concept of poverty in Islam is thus commented upon by Bausani:

(sorry, dont mean to go off on a tangent, but who's he?? Thanks).

onepence
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Re: "orders of true faqír do exist"

Postby onepence » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:22 am

british_bahai wrote:
onepence wrote:The concept of poverty in Islam is thus commented upon by Bausani:

(sorry, dont mean to go off on a tangent, but who's he?? Thanks).


He was director of the Italian quarterly magazine Opinioni Bahá'í from its foundation. He helped sustain every institution or committee, national or local, on which he was called to serve, with his presence and effort. He was a member of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Italy and Switzerland during all the years of its existence, then was a member of the National Spiritual Assembly of Italy from 1964 to 1984.

His essays and articles ...

http://library.bahai.org/sc/bau3.html

onepence
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Postby onepence » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:56 am

hi guys ...

thanks for keeping this thread alive ... been busy with family activities over the weekend ... and now i am back at my desk and it has been enjoyable catching up on what has transpired ...

funny think is i had never looked up Bausani ... what i had read just sorta resonated with what i was struggleing with ...

and ... the following is the struggle that i have not fully resolved ... but ... i think ... and it is almost sad & funny ... that almost all struggles end up being resolved via the Administrative Order of Baha'u'llah ...

ackward smile ... but still radiant ... smile

hmmmm ... the struggle ...

the differences and/or similiarities betweeen
a self based society and selfless based society ...

that is the struggle

the self based society is well documented ... i.e. America
where indivduals came togethere and formed a government
{we the people, in order to form , etc ... }

unfortunately ... i really do not have much knowledge on selfless based society ... hmmm

most people i have talked to when approaching this subject
go straight to Dictators / Kings
and equate it to really really bad realities
thoughts deeds

and so ... how do i overcome this hositily ...
in all honesty I can't
but in my heart I know
only the words of Baha'llah can change the hearts of men

*smile*

but ... still ... it is worth exploring what a selfless society would look like ...

some focal points
praise of The Almighty via pray at House of Worship
{reminscent of Islam}
... marriage ... growth of childern
{reminscent of Christianity}

yet ... what is really interesting ...
is those that teach only the self is qualified to make decessions on government ... must by defination deny Gods' existence ... which is sad

therein lies the struggle
between the Godly and ungodly
{and how we/i ... hopefully of the Godly ... intereact with the ungodly}

hmmm ... just some thoughts i been struggling with
some times it helps me to write things out ...

so ... thank you readers for allowing me to write about some of my issues

lol

and yes ... i know ... perhaps using the word ungodly is perhaps showing my own immaturity {my own selfishness} ... but hey ... at least i am pondering the issue of selflessness

*smile*

oneness
dh

onepence
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Postby onepence » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:41 pm

wow richard ... that is a pretty precise, well resaoned response to the struggle/s that i have expressed going through ...

"co-ordinated and reconciled by the unified will"

yes ... very enlightened response ... thank you

will write more later ...

still wondering about selfless society ... {ies { ?? } }
{past/present/future}

i betcha it is beautiful ... Beautiful

smile

here is to us ... seeking the Golden Age

*smile*

onepence
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Postby onepence » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:15 am

Death , Taxes , & The Administrative Order

*smile*

sincerely
yes

{great title for a book}

dh note : as in all things , Kull-i-Shay ,
could be used for both good or evil

///////

richard ... you are quit right ... laws can not force selflessness ...
transformation is accomplished by hearking to the
"Truth of God in all our relationships" ... yes ...
i like your message/s richard ... thank you ... please do continue to dialogue with me ... i know my writings can be kinda flacky sometimes ... smile ... so it is nice to hear your eloquent voice ... keeps me grounded ... smile ... yet spirtually soaring

/////////

so yea ... been meditating on this selfless society concept ... and thinking there has to be something more ... and wow ... all i can say is wow ... our Administrative Order {past/present/future} ... smile ... wow ... i deeply appluad the Hands of the Cause of God , our Guardian , and The Universal House of Justice ... wow ... we have accomplished a lot ... and unfortunately there can always be more to do ... but ... the glimpense of what they have shown us ... with prayful meditation ... one can see how a selfless society can/does work ... amazingly well ... been well pleased with {my understanding/s of} The Administrative Order ... these past dozen or so years ... and never really felt the urge to comment on the subject ... but now ... that i have had a chance to meditate on {my} utupia ... smile ... it is like wow ... gotta to hand it to the past ... big shout out ...

THANK YOU

and a side note to the thank you ... i have often wondered ... if future citizens will memmorize the names of their respective past NSA members ... hmmm ... a quick search fails to identify 1928 NSA members ... how sad ... yet ... interestingly enough ... selfless ... smile

////

so ... yea ... utopia ... as a selfless place .. fascinating

British_Bahai
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Re: "orders of true faqír do exist"

Postby British_Bahai » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:51 pm

onepence wrote:looking for thoughts on selflesness

////////
////////
//////


The concept of poverty in Islam is thus commented upon by Bausani:


The concept of poverty is very ancient in Islám and goes back to the very frugal and sober ways of the Prophet himself, because of his direct contact with the simple customs of the Arabs of the desert. According to a famous, frequently quoted by mystics, hadît., he said al-faqru fahrí (`poverty is my vaunt'). However, Faqr was often interpreted as a metaphor, namely as not having any personal merit, being nothing, the poorest of all the poor ones in front of the supreme wealth of the Wealthy One; however orders of true faqír do exist ... . (Author's translation of L'Islam 93)

//////////

what is the author referring to
"orders of true faqír do exist"
This is what i think that chunk is saying:
1. We we shouldnt worry that we're poor.... you should be glad because perhaps God made you poor for a reason (so youre not so attached to this world... see hidden words below for more info)

2. It is quite possible that the bit about ""orders of true faqír do exist" is saying that you just happened to be poor but God didnt intend for you to be tested with regards to that. (but in response, someone can quite rightly say "yeah, but wouldnt that still be the will of God?")
Doesnt it say in the tablet of Ahmad that "the wisdom of every command shall be tested" so perhaps God can test how materialistic you are some other way, since everyone is different...
(i dont know if that made any sense...)

Below are some hidden words which in my opinion are talking about money/richness, and how it doesnt really affect us, and it may infact stunt our spiritual growth.

Sooo...thats the reason why it says (`poverty is my vaunt') (to vaunt = to boast) because its actually better if we're poor because it makes us less materialistic (think of Paris Hilton Vs random child in Romania.... who's more materialistic??) being more materialistic kind of stunts our spiritual growth...


Hidden words:

from the persian:

18. O SON OF SPIRIT!
Ask not of Me that which We desire not for thee, then be content with what We have ordained for thy sake, for this is that which profiteth thee, if therewith thou dost content thyself.
(u can interpret this to say that we should just accept whatever happens as the will of God, because some people always ask for more money.... see #56 below)

52. O SON OF MAN!
Should prosperity befall thee, rejoice not and should abasement come upon thee, grieve not, for both shall pass away and be no more.

53. O SON OF BEING!
If poverty overtake thee, be not sad; for in time the Lord of wealth shall visit thee. Fear not abasement, for glory shall one day rest on thee.

55. O SON OF BEING!
Busy not thyself with this world, for with fire We test the gold and with gold We test Our servants.
(everyone knows this one!)

56. O SON OF MAN!
Thou dost wish for gold and I desire thy freedom from it. Thou thinkest thyself rich in its possession, and I recognize thy wealth in thy sanctity therefrom. By My life! This is My knowledge, and that is thy fancy; how can My way accord with thine?


57. O SON OF MAN!
Bestow My wealth upon My poor, that in heaven thou mayest draw from stores of unfading splendour and treasures of imperishable glory. But by My life! To offer up thy soul is a more glorious thing couldst thou but see with Mine eye.

from the arabic
51. O SON OF MY HANDMAID!
Be not troubled in poverty nor confident in riches, for poverty is followed by riches, and riches are followed by poverty. Yet to be poor in all save God is a wondrous gift, belittle not the value thereof, for in the end it will make thee rich in God, and thus thou shalt know the meaning of the utterance, "In truth ye are the poor," and the holy words, "God is the all-possessing," shall even as the true morn break forth gloriously resplendent upon the horizon of the lover's heart, and abide secure on the throne of wealth.


53. O YE THAT PRIDE YOURSELVES ON MORTAL RICHES!
Know ye in truth that wealth is a mighty barrier between the seeker and his desire, the lover and his beloved. The rich, but for a few, shall in no wise attain the court of His presence nor enter the city of content and resignation. Well is it then with him, who, being rich, is not hindered by his riches from the eternal kingdom, nor deprived by them of imperishable dominion. By the Most Great Name! The splendour of such a wealthy man shall illuminate the dwellers of heaven, even as the sun enlightens the people of the earth!

^ #53 is very similar to what it says in the Quran (I forgot what it said because i read it ages ago). But its basically saying that theres a greater chance of a camel walking through the eye of a needle than a rich man going to heaven... something like that...

British_Bahai
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Postby British_Bahai » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:20 pm

onepence wrote:Death , Taxes , & The Administrative Order

*smile*

sincerely
yes

{great title for a book}

LOL

onepence
Posts: 473
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Longwood, FL, USA

Postby onepence » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:33 pm

british_bahai wrote:LOL


*smile* ... yes ... i thought it was quite funny too ... lol ...

good to have a little bit of humour in a serious world

and ... i enjoyed the Quotes you provided thanks ...

it is interesting to see how various individuals developed their souls
and thus influenced society
in their own unique expressions of spiritual truths

onepence
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Location: Longwood, FL, USA

Postby onepence » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:48 pm

richard,

i am still thinking about your note

specifically

"It may even engender the spirit of the crusader, which is more than dangerous if not controlled by spiritual insight and loyal devotion to the commonplace social obligations of human loyalties ."

very interesting observation

would add ... smile ... it is one reason why i chose to get married ... so as to curb some of my natural crusader tendencies ... and ... a muture person/soul recognizes that it is the Administrative Order that primarily keeps in check the crusader

very interesting

perhaps even a whole nother topic initself

"the spirit of the crusader"

hmmm ... yes ... very interesting ... thank you for bringing this thought to my attention

onepence
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Location: Longwood, FL, USA

Postby onepence » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:32 pm

quietly to the cross
some shall go
in ecstasy the roses grow

*smile*

hmm ... personally ... i have trouble with not fighting defensive wars

I understand that richard is basing his thought about crusade {ers/ing}
exclusively upon a theological basis of Christianity
which is fine ... a very good bases to start with

and for me ... the thought almost polarizes into
being crucified or be the crucifier
{???}

thus we find early Christians being fed to the lions
and later so called Christians crucifying witches

hmm ... yes on certain inward states of reflection ...
there are personal sacrifices that can feel like ,
to the individual that is making the personal sacrifices ,
marytyrdom

{thinking of the time of Lent for Christians and Islam which mourns the marytyrdom of ??}

yet these personal sacrifices are solely based upon the thoughts of the participants themselves ...

not to mention how these thoughts degrade over time to a material view of either kill or be killed

yuck

I think there must be a basic Baha'i perspective on crusades
that unfortunately at this time i am unable to communicate

in fact ... a quick search at the Bahá’í Reference Library
indicates 442 refrences to crusade
http://reference.bahai.org/search?max=1 ... ry=crusade

although it is interesting to note that niether The Bab nor Baha'u'llah use the word crusade and it also appears that Abdu'l-Baha only uses the word once

"its one crusade is against the insistent self,"

BruceDLimber
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Postby BruceDLimber » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:09 am

onepence wrote:I think there must be a basic Baha'i perspective on crusades....


Surely the general Baha'i s criptural prohibitions on warfare answer this!:

“O people of the earth!
“The first Glad-Tidings which the Mother Book hath, in this Most Great Revelation, imparted unto all the peoples of the world is that the law of holy war hath been blotted out from the Book. Glorified be the All-Merciful, the Lord of grace abounding, through Whom the door of heavenly bounty hath been flung open in the face of all that are in heaven and on earth.
“The second Glad-Tidings . . .”
--Tablets of Baha’u’llah
, pp. 21-22

42 “Beware lest ye shed the blood of anyone. Unsheathe the sword of your tongue from the scabbard of utterance, for therewith ye can conquer the citadels of men’s hearts. We have abolished the law to wage holy war against each other. God’s mercy, hath, verily, encompassed all created things, if ye do but understand. Aid ye your Lord, the God of Mercy, with the sword of understanding. Keener indeed is it, and more finely tempered, than the sword of utterance, were ye but to reflect upon the words of your Lord. Thus have the hosts of Divine Revelation been sent down by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, and thus have the armies of divine inspiration been made manifest from the Source of command, as bidden by God, the All-Glorious, the Best-Beloved.”
--The Summons of the Lord of Hosts,
p. 23



Peace,

Bruce

onepence
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Postby onepence » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:39 am

yes ... there must be a difference between crusades and wars

wars are prohibited

crusades have happened

:D

after meditating on this subject for a few hours and overnight

i have again been struck with awe at my personal understanding that

both offensive and defensive orders of true faqír
of our crusades have been well established within the Administrative Order

ie ... Continental Counsellors for promulagation and protection
and our auxillory board members

thus ... if one wanted to enter a crusade to defend our Faith
one could ask to be considered as voluntar to help the local auxillary board member for protection

smile

amazing ... simply amazing

how selfless service is best understood through being a servant to Baha'u'llah within the confides of His Administrative Order in which He presented to mankind

amazing

orders of true faqír do exist

onepence
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Postby onepence » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:00 am

richard wrote:
TOWARDS GLOBAL CIVILIZATION AND PEACE...

As always; and, looking forward to your usual sensible and constructive comments and questions


hi richard

*smile*

i also have been enjoying our dialogue

in fact ... after reading your thoughts about
"and, at a high spiritual level even defensiveness may not be in vogue"
i was like

wow

no wonder Baha'u'llah loves the Christians so ...
*smile*

to be able to reach such pinnacle of understanding/s
and perhaps on certain levels many Christians
hold these same thoughts that you expressed

i was like wow
no wonder Baha'u'llah loves the Christians so ...
*smile*

and i wanted to complement you on your writings
but i also needed to sort out my Baha'i understanding

so ... my note ended up more of a question
{which thank God you noticed and did not take offensive to}
then a complement to your witings
{ackward shy lol}

interesting ... very interesting your character development
that you were able not to attack offensive
and see past my reasoning to my question

very interesting
{character development}

so ... i tried to puzzle over your Christian {scholary} training
Jesuit {?} ... don't think so ... but perhaps
Unitarian {?} ... perhaps ... or ... perhaps not

if i may be so bold to ask
where did you get your scholary training {?}

wherever it was ... you must have had some great teachers
to formulate the thought "at a high spiritual level even defensiveness may not be in vogue"

and

to not take offensive at those who may think differently

and

to seek to have a dialogue with members of the Baha'i Faith

amazing

you must have been blessed with a beautiful soul
and some pretty good teachers

if i may ask ... what scholars have you trained with ?

???


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