Do the souls of the Prophets and Chosen Ones reincarnate?

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hugobjzq
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Do the souls of the Prophets and Chosen Ones reincarnate?

Postby hugobjzq » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:19 pm

'Abdu'l-Baha said in Some Answered Questions that "human souls" do not reincarnate to this planet. But do the souls of Prophets reincarnate?

Mulla Husain, the first Letter of the Living, was called the "return" of Muhammad. The Bab was called the "return" of the Imam Mahdi. Baha'u'llah identified Himself as the "return" of the Imam Husain and Jesus.

Sen McGlinn
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Postby Sen McGlinn » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:07 pm

What is called "return" in Bahai literature is rather similar to the concept of "types" in the old testament and the new testament. John the Baptist is the "return" of Elijah, and Elijah is the "type" of John the baptist. (see Matt. 11:14 / Matthew 17:12-13). In the same sense, one could say that Herod was the return of Pharoah, or that Pharoah was the type of Herod.

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Re: Do the souls of the Prophets and Chosen Ones reincarnat

Postby British_Bahai » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:17 pm

Darrick_Evenson wrote:'Abdu'l-Baha said in Some Answered Questions that "human souls" do not reincarnate to this planet. But do the souls of Prophets reincarnate?

its the qualities of the souls of the messengers of God which are reincarnated in them (im sure u know this).
Messengers of God are all like clean mirrors that reflect the attributes of God. They are all reflecting the same light...

Darrick_Evenson wrote:Mulla Husain, the first Letter of the Living, was called the "return" of Muhammad. The Bab was called the "return" of the Imam Mahdi. Baha'u'llah identified Himself as the "return" of the Imam Husain and Jesus.


(#1) Where did you read that?! This is the first time I have heard this. Mulla Husayn was just a disciple...

(#2) The Bab was the Imam Mahdi, not the return of Imam Mahdi!

(#3) theres more to it than that, Bahaullah was the promised one of all ages!

BruceDLimber
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Postby BruceDLimber » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:11 am

Greetings!

It's made quite clear in the Baha'i scriptures (specifically, The Book of Certitude) that the Divine Messengers are not reincarnations: each is a distinct person who shares the same investiture by the Holy Spirit.

Peace,

Bruce

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Re: Do the souls of the Prophets and Chosen Ones reincarnat

Postby hugobjzq » Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:15 pm

Darrick_Evenson wrote:Mulla Husain, the first Letter of the Living, was called the "return" of Muhammad. The Bab was called the "return" of the Imam Mahdi. Baha'u'llah identified Himself as the "return" of the Imam Husain and Jesus.


(#1) Where did you read that?! This is the first time I have heard this. Mulla Husayn was just a disciple...

DARRICK: Mully Husayn was the first Letter of the Living. The Bab declared that the 18 Letters of the Living were the "return" of Muhammad, the 12 Imaams, Fatimah (daughter of Muhammad), and the Four babs (spokesman of the hidden Mahdi). Denis MacEoin writes:

"In his later works the Bab describes the Letters of the Living explcitely as the return of the Prophet, the twelve Imaams, the four gates who succeeded the Twelth Imaam, and Fatima." (Hierarchy, Authority and Escahtology in Early Baha'i Thought, p.105)

(#2) The Bab was the Imam Mahdi, not the return of Imam Mahdi!

DARRICK: The Imaam Mahdi was the 12th Imaam who died as a boy of 11 years old in the year 260 A.H.; falling down a well in Qom, Iran. Shiites hold the well as sacred, and thousands of pilgrims a year go to the well and drop notes and prayers down the well. Twelver Shiites believe that the Mahdi will resurrect from the well itself. 1000 lunar years after the death of the Imaam Mahdi, the Bab made His annoucement that He was the return of the Imaam Mahdi (1260 A.H./ 1844 A.D.) After the Imaam Mahdi died, four "Babs" (gates) arose, one after the other, declaring that they were the spokesmen for the Imaam Mahdi who was in "occultation" ("hidden").

The Book of Certitude nowhere says reincarnation is not true. It speaks of raj'a ("return") of the "attributes". The Names/Attributes of God are pre-existent. 'Abdu'l-Baha says that the "souls of the Prophets are pre-existent" unlike human souls. The Essence of God does not incarnate, but the Names/Attributes of God do incarnate as Prophets and "Chosen Ones". By "Chosen Ones" it means the Seers such as the Imaams and Fatimah, the female Seer.

Tahirih was the "return" of Fatimah, the daughter of Muhammad, and a Seer in her own right...a "chosen one". Mulla Husayn was the "return" of Muhammad according to the Bab, the first Letter of the Living, the first created "immortal" among the 14 who return in every Dispensation.

Shaykh Ahmad and Siyyid Kasim both taught that before the Cosmos was created, Allah created the Primal Will, and gave this fourteen Names. These "names" were incarnate as Muhammad, the Twelve Imaams, and Fatimah. Shaykh Ahmad said they also were John the Baptist, Mary Magdalene, and the 12 Apostles (not Judas, but Paul in the place of Judas) and that the "infallible fourteen" incarnated over and over again in every dispensation.

Jesus Christ was a combination of "Jesus" and "Christ". Jesus was the Messenger of God, a Prophet, an incarnation of one of the Name/Attributes of God. "Christ" was the WORD of God, the creative "Be". God said "Be" and created the Cosmos.

'Abdu'l-Baha was not a Prophet, but He was the "return" of the WORD, the Mystery of God, the creative "Be". Pre-existent.

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Re: Do the souls of the Prophets and Chosen Ones reincarnat

Postby BruceDLimber » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:47 am

Darrick_Evenson wrote:The Book of Certitude nowhere says reincarnation is not true.

Eminently irrelevant!

BOTH The Book of Certitude and Some Answered Questions are Baha'i scripture, and the latter states explicitly that reincarnation doesn't exist and explains in detail why not!

And spiritual "returns" have nothing to do with reincarnation.

Peace,

Bruce

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Re: Do the souls of the Prophets and Chosen Ones reincarnat

Postby hugobjzq » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:32 pm

Bruce, I would have to disagree with you, strongly.

1) WHERE in the Book of Certitude does it say reincarnation is not true?

2) 'Abdu'l-Baha, in "Some Answered Questions" says that "human souls" do not return to this planet. The souls of the Prophets are not "human". Their "souls" are the Name-Attributes of God which have always existed.

3) The Bab called the 18 Letters of the Living the "return" of Muhammad, the 12 Imaams, Fatimah, and the four babs (i.e. the four spokesman of the Hidden Imaam). Mulla Husayn was identified as the "return" of Muhammad. This makes NO sense at all, since Mulla Husayn authored no book of law, and did not claim to be a Prophet. The Imaams, Fatimah, and the Four babs were considered "Chosen Ones" meaning they were pre-existent along with the Prophets.

BruceDLimber wrote:
Darrick_Evenson wrote:The Book of Certitude nowhere says reincarnation is not true.

Eminently irrelevant!

BOTH The Book of Certitude and Some Answered Questions are Baha'i scripture, and the latter states explicitly that reincarnation doesn't exist and explains in detail why not!

And spiritual "returns" have nothing to do with reincarnation.

Peace,

Bruce

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Re: Do the souls of the Prophets and Chosen Ones reincarnat

Postby British_Bahai » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:41 pm

Hey, Darrick, with regards to this question:
Darrick_Evenson wrote:Bruce, I would have to disagree with you, strongly.

1) WHERE in the Book of Certitude does it say reincarnation is not true?

2) 'Abdu'l-Baha, in "Some Answered Questions" says that "human souls" do not return to this planet. The souls of the Prophets are not "human". Their "souls" are the Name-Attributes of God which have always existed.

3) The Bab called the 18 Letters of the Living the "return" of Muhammad, the 12 Imaams, Fatimah, and the four babs (i.e. the four spokesman of the Hidden Imaam). Mulla Husayn was identified as the "return" of Muhammad. This makes NO sense at all, since Mulla Husayn authored no book of law, and did not claim to be a Prophet. The Imaams, Fatimah, and the Four babs were considered "Chosen Ones" meaning they were pre-existent along with the Prophets.

BruceDLimber wrote:
Darrick_Evenson wrote:The Book of Certitude nowhere says reincarnation is not true.

Eminently irrelevant!

BOTH The Book of Certitude and Some Answered Questions are Baha'i scripture, and the latter states explicitly that reincarnation doesn't exist and explains in detail why not!

And spiritual "returns" have nothing to do with reincarnation.

Peace,

Bruce


I was just going to reply, but i didnt, because Bruce already did, here:

BruceDLimber wrote:
Darrick_Evenson wrote:The Book of Certitude nowhere says reincarnation is not true.

Eminently irrelevant!

BOTH The Book of Certitude and Some Answered Questions are Baha'i scripture, and the latter states explicitly that reincarnation doesn't exist and explains in detail why not!

And spiritual "returns" have nothing to do with reincarnation.

Peace,

Bruce


I will have a hunt for the quote which says this... or if anyone can find it before me then feel free to post it up.

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Re: Do the souls of the Prophets and Chosen Ones reincarnat

Postby BruceDLimber » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:34 pm

Darrick_Evenson wrote:WHERE in the Book of Certitude does it say reincarnation is not true?


YOU brought that book up, not I!

_I_ said Some Answered Questions addresses this.

'Abdu'l-Baha, in "Some Answered Questions" says that "human souls" do not return to this planet. The souls of the Prophets are not "human". Their "souls" are the Name-Attributes of God which have always existed.


So? I never denied this.

The Bab called the 18 Letters of the Living the "return" of Muhammad, the 12 Imaams, Fatimah, and the four babs (i.e. the four spokesman of the Hidden Imaam). Mulla Husayn was identified as the "return" of Muhammad. This makes NO sense at all, since Mulla Husayn authored no book of law, and did not claim to be a Prophet. The Imaams, Fatimah, and the Four babs were considered "Chosen Ones" meaning they were pre-existent along with the Prophets.


Clearly a spiritual return; nothing literal.

You are free to debate this if you wish; it's not my concern. I will note, BTW, that you may be concluding more from this than was intended by its author.

Peace,

Bruce

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Re: Do the souls of the Prophets and Chosen Ones reincarnate?

Postby RuhiWarrior19 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:17 pm

Bruce,

I think we need to understand the concept of Archetypes. In literature archetypes are recurring character types which transcend cultures. (Christlike figures, Byronic Heroes, Poly Pureheart etc.) We all recognize these types of character despite our cultural background, because they represent an aspect of the human spirit we are all familar with and that ALL cultures have literally examples of.

Look at the concept of the Anti-Christ in Bahá'í belief: The Master defines them as (Forgive my paraphrasing) "Any soul which, recognizing the true station of the Manifestation, actively opposes the Manifestation for his own glorification". (Search Ocean for Anti-Christ if you need scriptural evidence of this explanation)

Thus the Anti-Christ is an archetype. Obviously Judas Iscariot and Subh-i-Azal are not the same PERSON, but they are the same archetype. Every revelation has this figure, and arguably needs this figure. They have seperate souls, but are for all intensive worldly purposes, the same - Anti-Christs.

This is true of many other figures who regularly accompany the Manifestations, the nurturing women (Mothers and/or companions), the strong woman, etc.

This is not in any way a "spritual return" as you have called it, because the people have different spirits (if by spirit we mean soul). They are different individuals with different souls and even different personalities.

The Return of the Manifestation IS a Spiritual return, becuase though each is a different person with a different soul and personality, they are Manifestations of the same Spirit (Note the capital S), the Holy Spirit.

Important distinction between the return of the Manifestation and that of His companions.
Truly, the Morn of Guidance commands the breeze to begin
All the world has been illuminated; every horizon, every people
No more sits the shaykh in the seat of hypocrisy
No more becomes the mosque a shop dispensing holiness
- Tahirih

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Re: Do the souls of the Prophets and Chosen Ones reincarnate?

Postby Ahsan_al_Hadees » Wed May 28, 2008 9:51 am

And spiritual "returns" have nothing to do with reincarnation.


Agreed.

Regards,
Ahsan


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