361, profound miracle of the Quran

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6619
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361, profound miracle of the Quran

Postby 6619 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:34 am

Salaam to all,

Thank you for providing this forum.
I am Muslim. A new mathematical miracle involving number 361 has very recently been discovered (http://www.islamrevolution.org/). I know that number 361 is a crucial number in the Bahai faith (The Bahai religion is based on a calendar of 361 days) and it is very obviously why I am posting this message on your forum.
361 has profound implications in the Quran. Its main function is that it exposes verses 9:128-129 as not being part of the Quran, and provides simple and profound mathematical evidence of its divine authorship. I would very much appreciate some educated feedback from you on 361 so we can benefit from each others:

Summary of 361: http://www.islamrevolution.org/361summary.htm
Main article on 361: http://www.islamrevolution.org/361mainarticle.htm

For those who will want to know more about 361, more is said in the article entitled "9:128-129" on the website.

May the peace of God be with you, always.

BritishBahai
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Please say where you got this idea from

Postby BritishBahai » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:47 am

Welcome !
6619 wrote: I know that number 361 is a crucial number in the Bahai faith (The Bahai religion is based on a calendar of 361 days) and it is very obviously why I am posting this message on your forum.
The number 361 is not sacred in the Bahai faith... :-? This is the first time ive ever heard of it.
Numbers: 9, 19 and 95 are "important" or have significance, but not 361.

Please can you say where you got this information from.
In many cases, people deliberately put false things about the bahai faith online. I am pretty sure you have come across something like that
"I have desired only what Thou didst desire, and love only what Thou dost love"

Fadl
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Re: 361, profound miracle of the Quran

Postby Fadl » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:17 am

BB,

I think what our guest was referring to is the fact that our calendar is 361 days (19 x 19) in length. You are right that 361 is not a sacred number per se, but I would argue that no numbers are sacred in our faith. There is the abjad numerology in the Babi and Baha'i religions which is why baha = 9, bab = 5 therefore 95, etc., but that doesn't make the numbers sacred. Even so, we can't deny the prevalence if not importance of abjad and symbolic, quasi "numerology" found in the faith.

But there is something else interesting about 361 in our faith in addition to it being the number of days (less the intercalary days) of our calendar. A lesser known fact about the Badi calendar is that it is also divided into 19 Vahids (unities) of 19 years, and 19 Vahids = equals one kulli-shay (everything). Whether "sacred" or not, there is certainly some significance to it in our faith, especially to the Bab.

I have looked at this numerical miracle of the Qur'an before, and although it is interesting, I don't think its very significant or relevant to the divinity of the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the word of God with or without it. Ditto for the Bab and Baha'u'llah's revelations.


Loren
"Thus doth the Nightingale utter His call unto you from this prison. He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord." - Baha'u'llah

coatofmanycolours
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Re: 361, profound miracle of the Quran

Postby coatofmanycolours » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:31 am

An interesting article about these numbers is:

On Novelty in Ayyám-i-Há and the Badí Calendar
John Taylor
Presented at the ABS "Who Is Writing the Future" Conference
Mississauga, Ontario, 1 September, 2000

He mentions the number 361, which is 19 times 19, the number of days in the Badi calendar,
minus the intercalary days.

The article in on this site at:

http://bahai-library.com/conferences/badia.html

I can ask John about this fascinating subject, as he lives nearby here in Ontario, Canada.
There is much more to the Badi calendar than I had imagined.

One point is that years are also grouped by 19 and 361.

-Peter

coatofmanycolours
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Re: 361, profound miracle of the Quran

Postby coatofmanycolours » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:47 am

1619; It is strange to hear a Muslim saying that the Quran was corrupted. Personally, I cannot
believe this. I feel confident that the Quran is 100% reliable.

Baha'u'llah explained, in a different context, that corruption of the text does not mean that they were
literally changed. It means that certain verses have been misinterpreted by some religious leaders in a
manner to harm the Faith.

My opinion is that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are perfect in conception. They are from God.
The only reasonable complaint is against the way in which they were interpreted by some leaders,
as is still the case today.

I see the Babi and Baha'i revelations as the perfect renewal of the ancient Faith of God. Their essence
is fresh and vigorous, while certain laws of the past have been abrogated and new ones proclaimed by
God for this advanced age.

All arguments about religion revolve around interpretations. For that reason, I think we should offer
our personal interpretations with humility and be patient until God resolves are diverse views and
reunites our hearts within the pavilion of His love and wisdom.

-Peter

6619
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Re: 361, profound miracle of the Quran

Postby 6619 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:26 pm

Salaam everyone,

coatofmanycolours wrote:1619; It is strange to hear a Muslim saying that the Quran was corrupted. Personally, I cannot
believe this. I feel confident that the Quran is 100% reliable.
Baha'u'llah explained, in a different context, that corruption of the text does not mean that they were
literally changed. It means that certain verses have been misinterpreted by some religious leaders in a
manner to harm the Faith.
My opinion is that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are perfect in conception. They are from God.
The only reasonable complaint is against the way in which they were interpreted by some leaders,
as is still the case today.
I see the Babi and Baha'i revelations as the perfect renewal of the ancient Faith of God. Their essence
is fresh and vigorous, while certain laws of the past have been abrogated and new ones proclaimed by
God for this advanced age.
All arguments about religion revolve around interpretations. For that reason, I think we should offer
our personal interpretations with humility and be patient until God resolves are diverse views and
reunites our hearts within the pavilion of His love and wisdom.
-Peter


First of all thank you all for welcoming me on your forum.
I personnally do not see 19, 361 or other numbers as sacred, simply that God designed a mathematical language with extraordinarily meaningfull numbers, for instance 19, symbol of God's guidance and Oneness (http://www.islamrevolution.org/miracleof19.htm).
Regarding 361 and the bahai faith I simply meant to say that since your calendar is composed with 361 days (19 months of 19 days), it has to be a very important number in your faith.
To Peter and others I suggest you at least read the short summary on 361 (http://www.islamrevolution.org/361summary.htm) as I don't make a claim lightly saying that 9:128-129 are not part of Quran, and again, I'd appreciate your feedback.
I myself will read the link recommended by Peter.

Peace.

brettz9
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Re: 361, profound miracle of the Quran

Postby brettz9 » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:43 am

Hello and welcome 6619,

I don't think any of us can say that 361 is not of special importance, but we don't know of any special importance, besides the Baha'i calendar using it and it being the square of 19. '19', by itself, however is of significance for a number of reasons, including that it was 19 years from the beginning of the Declaration of the Bab (1844) to the Declaration of Baha'u'llah (1863); there were 18 Letters of the Living appointed by the Bab, which together with Himself, totaled 19, and no doubt other significances. 95, which is the number of recitations of certain verses, is also a multiple of 19. So, I agree it is not a stretch to say that 361 is of some significance; but I know of nothing specifically about it, so I don't think we can offer any official point of view.

However, as far as the authenticity of the Qur'an, our Writings are pretty clear about it being authentic:

"In regard to your question concerning the authenticity of the Qur'an. I have referred it to the Guardian for his opinion. He thinks that the Qur'an is, notwithstanding the opinion of certain historians, quite authentic, and that consequently it should be considered in its entirety by every faithful and loyal believer as the sacred scriptures of the Muhammadan Revelation."
(From a letter dated July 6, 1934 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer)


"As to the question raised by...in connection with Baha'u'llah's statement in the 'Gleanings' concerning the sacrifice of Ishmael; although this statement does not agree with that made in the Bible, Genesis 22:9, the friends should unhesitatingly, and for reasons that are only too obvious, give precedence to the saying of Baha'u'llah, which, it should be pointed out, is fully corroborated by the Qur'an which book is far more authentic than the Bible, including both the New and Old Testaments. The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Baha'u'llah."
(From a letter dated July 28, 1936 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to a National Spiritual Assembly)


One could admittedly argue, from the above, that there is a small amount of "wiggle room" for claims that very small portions of the Qu'ran might not have been accurately transmitted (terms like "quite authentic" and "far more authentic" do not necessarily imply 100%), but even this would, I would say, be questionable given the statements that it "should be considered in its entirety by every faithful and loyal believer as the sacred scriptures of the Muhammadan Revelation" and "The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an" (though one could still argue that the former quotation is just for the sake of unity, and that the latter is some "exaggerated emphasis").

In any case, I am not aware that our Writings have dealt with these specific verses you challenge, and on the contrary, our Writings freely quote from the Qur'an, and as pointed out by Peter, even the Bible, which we do not believe is wholly authentic, is still argued by Baha'u'llah as mostly conveying its original spiritual inspiration, explaining that corruption of the text referred to in the Qur'an more refers to the twisting of meaning, rather than a literal corruption, and arguing that if it were otherwise, the Christians could not have been held accountable on the Judgment Day brought by the Qur'an (just as we might say, Muslims could not be held to account if the Qur'an had been significantly corrupted, if at all, before the Judgment Day brought by the Bab and Baha'u'llah).

So, again, taking to heart the point that the Qur'an "should be considered in its entirety by every faithful and loyal believer as the sacred scriptures of the Muhammadan Revelation", I do not think we can legitimately question any verses as not being wholly authentic. This would not exclude, however, personal interpretations being made by Baha'is which ascribed other meanings to such patterns as you have apparently discovered, but these interpretations would only be personal ones.

Here are a few quotations on numerology, where I highlight the potential legitimacy of such investigations (despite the other clear emphasis in these quotations away from adhering to them too strictly):

"...it is absolutely essential that the teachings should not be confused with the obscure ideas related to numerology and astrology and the like. Individuals interested in them are free to believe in and credit such ideas and to make any inferences and deductions they desire from them, but under no circumstances are they expected to identify them with the principles and teachings of the Cause. We must at this stage preserve the purity and sanctity of the Bahá'í teachings. I will pray that you may be guided in your efforts, and may succeed in safeguarding and promoting the interests of our beloved Faith."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 26, 1928)


"There is nothing in the teachings which leads us to believe numerology or astrology are needed by the believers to guide them in any way."

(From a letter dated June 25, 1950 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer: Spiritualism, Psychic Phenomena and Related Subjects)


"The Master has said that there is a certain amount of truth in numerology, physiognomy etc. but it is too much exaggerated by those who advocate them."

(From a letter dated October 27, 1926 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer: Spiritualism, Psychic Phenomena and Related Subjects)


"The Bab made use of the numerical value of words to symbolize spiritual concepts. The Persian for 'The Letters of the Living' is 'Huruf-i-Hay'; there were 18 of these first disciples of the Bab and the numerical value of the word 'Hay' is 18. These 18 letters, together with the Bab Himself, constitute the first 'Vahid' of the Revelation. The word 'Vahid' has a numerical value of 19, and means 'Unity'. It symbolizes the unity of God, and thus the number 19 itself symbolizes the unity of God, and it was used by the Bab as the basis for His Calendar. One may also note the reference on 'The Synopsis and Codification of the Kitab-i-Aqdas' to 19 or 95 mithqals of gold or silver in connection with the laws of marriage and of Huququ'llah."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, November 13, 1980)


You may also find this document of interest: http://bahai-library.com/file.php?file= ... inted_star which includes this quotation:

While the symbolic use of numbers in the Sacred Writings of Bahá'u'lláh and the Bab is important, there is no occult meaning to them, nor do Bahá'ís susbscribe to divination by numbers or other such practices.


Hope that helps...

best wishes,
Brett

6619
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Re: 361, profound miracle of the Quran

Postby 6619 » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:38 pm

Salaam everyone,
brettz9 wrote:.......
However, as far as the authenticity of the Qur'an, our Writings are pretty clear about it being authentic:
"In regard to your question concerning the authenticity of the Qur'an. I have referred it to the Guardian for his opinion. He thinks that the Qur'an is, notwithstanding the opinion of certain historians, quite authentic, and that consequently it should be considered in its entirety by every faithful and loyal believer as the sacred scriptures of the Muhammadan Revelation."
(From a letter dated July 6, 1934 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer)

Hope that helps...
best wishes,
Brett
Thank you Brett for such a detailed answer.

It is interesting that your belief system seems to be leaving some door open that some minor changes may have penetrated the Quran since Quran is deemed "quite authentic".
The issue of 9:128-129 is very minor if we consider that there are 6346 verses (6234 numbered and 112 unnumbered). Still it becomes a major issue when we consider that Muhammad is called "Raheem" (Merciful), divine attribute that applies to God exclusively in the Quran, and if we consider the fact that 9:128-129 violate repeatedly the Quran's security code (Over it is 19, 74:30): http://www.islamrevolution.org/9128129parti.htm.

God bless you.

brettz9
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Re: 361, profound miracle of the Quran

Postby brettz9 » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:28 pm

And peace and blessings be upon you 6619,

I'm sorry I haven't taken time to look at your article, but have you considered that the pattern might be violated (if that is the case), because this is the ninth Surah, for which the Bismillah is absent (and interestingly, the one Surah where holy war is less ambiguously only a defensive venture)? Sometimes a seeming violation can be a deliberate exception. Just a thought.

By the way, you might be interested to know that in the Baha'i Faith--which, while branching from Islam, is an independent religion with its own different set of social laws, just as Christianity is distinct from Judaism, and Islam from Christianity--the law of holy war (which we believe to have only been meant defensively) has been fully abrogated:

The first Glad-Tidings which the Mother Book hath, in this Most Great Revelation, imparted unto all the peoples of the world is that the law of holy war hath been blotted out from the Book.

(Baha'u'llah, The Glad Tidings, p. 21)


From the texts you already have available it is clear that Bahá'u'lláh has stated that it is preferable to be killed in the path of God's service than to kill, and that organized religious attack against Bahá'ís should never turn into any kind of warfare, as this is strictly prohibited in our Writings...

(Universal House of Justice, Guidance on Self-Defense, at http://bahai-library.com/uhj/self.defense.html )


best wishes,
Brett

6619
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Re: 361, profound miracle of the Quran

Postby 6619 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:23 pm

Salaam to all of you.

Indeed the fact the bismillah is absent from sura 9 is one of the sign it was going to be tampered with (http://www.islamrevolution.org/9128129parti.htm).
All suras are blessed with the four worded bismillah except sura 9. Still God blessed it in a hidden manner: There are 168 words God until the last verse (9:127), gematrical value of ....Bismillah (بسم الله). An extra word God occurs in 9:128-129, thus excluding them from God's blessing.

Jihad is one of the themes of sura 9, and in Islam it is allowed exclusively to defend yourself in case of extreme persecution, or to liberate oppressed people.

By the way I am shocked when I see that some Bahais around the world are persecuted. It is totally inconsistent with the message of Islam which advocates religious freedom.

Peace and God bless.

brettz9
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Re: 361, profound miracle of the Quran

Postby brettz9 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:10 pm

Greetings 6619,

Yes, well we too believe Muhammad intended the fighting only to be defensive. 'Abdu'l-Baha discusses this in Chapter 7 of Some Answered Questions in case you were interested.

You may also be pleased to hear (as we were) that there is a Muslim Network for Baha'i rights and also a number of prominent Iranians (presumably a number of which are Muslims) have stood up for Baha'i rights as well: http://news.bahai.org/story/697

best wishes,
Brett

coatofmanycolours
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Re: 361, profound miracle of the Quran

Postby coatofmanycolours » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:01 am

"wiggle room"

Are you referring to the place where the Whirling Dervishes do their dance?

-Peter

brettz9
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Re: 361, profound miracle of the Quran

Postby brettz9 » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:06 pm

Peter,

uuuumm... no. :)

(For non-native speakers here, "wiggle room" means having freedom or flexibility to interpret.)


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