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Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 12:02 am
by majnun
deleted by the author

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 7:16 pm
by Dawud
And how many Canadians left the faith during these months, either by choice or through death? (Since many quietly drop out rather than formally disenroll, this information may be hard to come by.)

Do you notice more and more people coming to the local groups with which you are familiar? How does the observable local Baha'i population compare with the official local Baha'i population? (Obviously no local group or country can be representative of the whole, but with enough sampling a clearer picture could emerge.)

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 8:21 am
Dear David :

Well, about six months ago, i remarked a bit more
people inside the mashriq on sunday morning reunions.
This phenomenon continued until now. In our province,
the number of official members reached a record high.

You mention people leaving without saying, and for that
I cannot imagine a worst retribution, to stay far away from
the program. When a person has crossed the first few
steps, or levels, how can that person go back into the
sticky molasse he was in ? It's unthinkable, unless many
are defenitively masoschist. Leaving by death is a normal
phenomenon, but less occuring than "rebirths" or truthseekers.
The Baha'i faith is assuredly not shrinking. Nay, the level
of consciousness of members is growing inside them too.
People dont just sit and pray, they study hard, individually, and
they grow to become like those warmly described by Abdul Baha
in his travels in America. You should see the smiles in their eyes.
You should feel the calm of their being, the courtesy of their personalities,
and the level of their presence. People who get rid of their
imperfections become very friendly, very open minded, and you
possibly know all this.

There is no reason to leave, except if you dont follow the program.
If any malaise should occur, we are trained by the program to express it openly.

(paraphrasing the valleys)
"until the traveler express his pain, he advances not"

The number of adherents is just a statistic, but it shows
a genuine interest from many who need the Baha'i medecine.
We are trained not to be dependant on a group to grow up,
so even if some people come less often to the reunions, they
remain conscious people, mentally strong and independant.

The "entry by troops" is predicted to be in full force in 2020ad.
This is predicted precisely in the noble Qur'an.

I have no doubt the Baha'i formation will reach a high
point in that year and these statistics showing a constant
growth seems to me to be an indicator for that. For me,
even if 40 or 50 percent of the world population get into
a Baha'i reunion each week, it's not important. What i cherish
more is that the "inner force" keep growing in every one, so
we may recognize the presence, in a fraction of a second,
in the conscience of other humans around us. :)


Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 4:57 pm
by Dawud
Now we are talking about several things at once, I think. Here's how I read you:

1. Baha'i is growing, not shrinking. (Based on national Canadian statistics and local Canadian observations.)

I wish we had better information, and from many more parts of the world. I too am curious to know the true situation, and I fear that none of this can be extrapolated to places like Africa or India. The frustrating part is that Baha'is often produce numbers that represent either guesswork (6 or 7 million in the world??) or patchy methodologies (counting enrollment cards).

2. If it did turn out to be shrinking, that wouldn't negate its legitimacy. Size doesn't matter.

Okay, but it seems to me that many Baha'is really, really want to hear that their religion is growing and on its way to conquering the world some day (so to speak). You're not like the Quakers, who are content with being a permanent minority religion.

3. Anyway it's going to grow a whole lot later, at least (starting 2020?).

This makes me think of earlier Baha'i prophecies about the year 2000. I used to hear Baha'is assure me that the lesser peace would have begun by then, so that no unpunished acts of war or military aggression could occur in the 21st century. Unfortunately things didn't work out as planned.

4. Baha'i is a great religion, and its members are just crackling with spiritual energy, so of course they must be growing.

Most of what you said could be applied just as easily to other religions. For example, Pentecostalism has been growing very, very quickly since its beginnings a century ago, and by now has spread throughout the world as one of the major forms of Christianity. You could find the same smiles, the same studiousness, the same ethnic diversity, etc. among them. And they--like you--would see all these as signs of God's special favor. Perhaps some of them are even now wondering how all you Baha'is could be so spiritually blind as to continue wallowing in the morass of the non-pentecostal mundane world. (And then multiply times ten thousand other religions.)

5. If some of them don't come to feasts, it could be that they're just very independent.

That's one possible explanation.

The definition of "adherent" of a religion is vexed. Some religions count all the "baptized" (or card-signed for you) even if they drop out. Others want to know how many believe, or how many attend services. There's no way for an outsider to decide which of these is really more important.

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 7:55 pm
by majnun
deleted by the author

Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 4:33 pm
by Keyvan
about this prophecy for a date of entry by troops

ive heard this 2020 number before...actually ive heard 2021 to be exact, since that marks 100 years of the formidive age, and the end of the fifth epoch.

you said it was prophecised in The Quran? thats interesting. can you show me where? also where else in the writings are these indications of entry by troops at 2021.

i also heard the lesser peace thing by 2000 back in the 90's. first, where in the writings did it indicate 2000? and why are we going by the Christian calander for that anyway? when i learned of that i was told that there would still be wars, but not all out big wars, rather coalition fought wars against a single opponant, with at least the ideal purpose for not saying i necessarily agree with the actions, i am saying though that it wouldnt have contradicted that prophecy.

but also dont we also have a prophecy of some grand apocoyptic calliber event thats going ot shake up the world. Shoghi Effendi interperated

35 CATASTROPHE (The Apocalyptic Upheaval)

"We have no indication of exactly what nature the apocalyptic upheaval will be; it might be another war ... but as students of our Bahá'í Writings, it is clear that the longer the 'Divine Physician' (i.e. Bahá'u'lláh) is withheld from healing the ills of  13  the world, the more severe will be the crisis, and the more terrible the sufferings of the patient."

(Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 12)



Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 10:18 pm
by majnun
deleted by the author

Re: some questions answered

Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 10:36 pm
by Keyvan
oh no no no. I know that math. lol. ive taught it to people.
I was just wondering about the idea of the lesser peace coming at 2000? like where that came from.
but the 2020 thing is interesting though. 2021 is 100 years after the launch of the formative age and the end of the fifth epoch.

also a suggestion. with that number 2020 you should add 1 year to make up for the year 0 which is not a number. as we do with the Bahai calander being 162, and that which led to 1844 added +1 too.
so taking that math that leads 2020, we get a nice 2021 with the plus 1.

i dunno. i could be wrong.

Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 10:11 pm
by Guest
Dear Keyvan

your assumption sounds perfectly correct.
The Bab was executed on july 1266 ah, and
mentioned in Qur'an by 1267, or may we say in the
1267th year.

So, like you wrote, adding 1 is quite normal,
and i think you are not wrong.


The Baha'i formation is growing

Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:33 am
by David Bowie
Dear Majnun,

Unfortunately I think you have misread Baha'i Canada. The enrolment statistics are progressive from Naw-Ruz each year. Therefore the numbers you cite are not monthly enrolments but are the total from Naw-Ruz to the month of publication. The last issue I have shows that from Naw-Ruzz 2005 to 21 April 2005 the Canadian enrolments totalled 23 new beleivers: 16 Adult and 7 youth. As I look back through my previous year's issue I think that number has remained pretty constant. +/- 5%.


Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:18 pm
by Dawud
"It's not always easy
"It's not always swell
"Sometimes the truth hurts, little girl
"It can hurt like hell."

--David Bowie, in "Labyrinth"

(sorry, couldn't resist!)

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:55 am
by majnun
deleted by the author

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:41 am
by Keyvan
200 a year in canada, makes it a growth rate of say 1%
this 5 year plan was basically to start mobilising Baha'is far and wide, to change their daily "culture," as the UHJ puts it, so we have a strong base, of study circles, devotionals, and childrens classes, that if someone sparks interest in the faith they have a great system of somewhere to go to learn, for themselves and their children

the NEXT 5 year plan from what I hear is aimed at now GENERATING this widespread interest and curiosity (massive media campeign, etc)

and i believe after that there is to be a solid 10 year plan. from what I hear, (some high up sources in Haifa) that 10 year plan is to be a Bahai project so massive the likes of which is of such intensity that nothing before in Bahai formidive history is comperable to such an effort, save the 10 year crusade!!!!

by those same sources it is apparantly confirmed that 2021-22 is the date of "entry by troops"

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:31 am
by majnun
deleted by the author

Re: We've got a good medicine

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:41 pm
by Hasan
majnun wrote:.
I was acquainted to the number 2020 only last year,
by our regional representative, in an election meeting.
I then looked back at some research I made when I studied
the Qur’an.

3 verses starts with the same sentence announcing the overture
of the Bab and what is said in the verse. They are 9:33, 48:28 and 61:9.
Those 3 verses each contain 60 letters and 14 words.
The first and the last is identical and from on to another
there is 3903 verses. (1301 x 3)
1301 is the 212th prime number. Letters B-A-B is 212.
If you add the numbers (the digits) of the abjad value of
the letters of the first or the last verse, the total of each is 212.
This may identify the messenger mentioned in the verses.

Secondly, the number of word Allah between the first and the
second verse is 1222. If we assume it means solar years,
I just do this to find the hegira : 1222 x 365 / 354 = 1260ah
(or 1222 +622 = 1844 ad). Simple as a b c, à la William Sears.

Then, from the first verse to the third, there are
1398 word Allah. Again: 1398 x 365 / 354 = 1441 ah
(or 1398 + 622 = 2020 ad)
I calculated this with the small attachment given
By the site. (WinQt)

Dear Majnun,

I like prophecies, but I can't see the connection you intricately did for the year 2020/2021.

The only connection I see of 2021 is the Centenary of the Formative Age and the Passing of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and I also think the beginning of the Minor Peace is not a specific date.

Why solar years for Quran's resources?
What is the base for the use of the Quran is for the year 2020?
Why it is this date related to the Báb's overture?

Also I don't see the relation of this and the year 2020/21 with the entry by troops, it is just the final of a sequence of four 5 year Plans. Why "entry by troops" is related to this date? Do you mean III World War could mark the entry by troops?



Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:16 am
by majnun
deleted by the author.

Re: The Hour seems to be indicated in the noble Qur'an

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:58 am
by Hasan
Well done Majnun, it is Ok. Surely you saw this link ... phecy.html

I am interested to know what meaning you give to the year 1960 AD, this date is related to the Cause, when Mason Remey defected.




Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:01 am
by majnun
deleted by the author

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:44 am
by Keyvan
i dont think the year mason remey defected is significant enough to have had an ordained prophecy. weve had and are continuing to have attempted splinter groups and from what i see remeys has gone all but defunct. i dont think theirs an ordained time for each splinter group

i heard about how the House of Worship in Haifa was designed by him though. i puts kind of a hesitation you know.. :? , but after all Shoghi Effendi did approve it..soo...cant go wrong...and cant go back

by the way, does anyone know of an online picture of the design for the Haifa House of Worship? i saw the one for Tehran, but not the one for Haifa. thanks

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:18 pm
by brettz9
I'm not sure of the significance of 1960 either (besides what was already mentioned and being the half-way point between 1957 and 1963, thus indicating a kind of unfolding process), but Shoghi Effendi did, as I just discovered today, foretell (initial) difficulties with the Covenant on his passing:

A winter of unprecedented severity will soon be upon you. Its storm clouds are fast gathering on the horizon. Tempestuous winds will assail you from every side. The Light of the Covenant will be obscured through my departure. These mighty blasts, this wintry desolation, shall however pass away. The dormant seed will burst into fresh activity. It shall put forth its buds, shall reveal, in mighty institutions, its leaves and blossoms.

The vernal showers which the tender mercies of my heavenly Father will cause to descend upon you will enable this tender plant to spread out its branches to regions far beyond the confines of your native land. And finally the steadily mounting sun of His Revelation, shining in its meridian splendor, will enable this mighty Tree of His Faith to yield, in the fullness of time and on your soil, its golden fruit.

(Shoghi Effendi, World Order of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 86])