Apologies and International Relations

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Apologies and International Relations

Postby Morgan » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:29 am

If one nation 'wrongs' another is it then morally obligated to apologise?

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Postby brettz9 » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:39 pm

I recall another quote I cannot find now on how not confessing to others does not mean not being able to apologize. Although the dynamics may be different, I wouldn't see why there should be a difference in this case between nations and individuals:
"Perhaps the greatest test Bahá'ís are ever subjected to is from each other; but for the sake of the Master they should be ever ready to overlook each other's mistakes, apologize for harsh words they have uttered, forgive and forget. He strongly recommends to you this course of action."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, February 18, 1945: Living the Life, p. 12)


Postby Morgan » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:40 pm

I also remember a quote from Shoghi Effendi where he says something along the lines of while we may apologise if we want to we are not obligated to do so as ultimately forgiveness comes from God and God alone.


Postby Morgan » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:49 pm

I'm refering to military action taken by one nation against another rather than just harsh words.

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Postby brettz9 » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:21 pm

First of all, for miiltary actions, I presume you mean something in the farther past (or otherwise they are unlikely to be apologizing if it is the same regime)...

What is the reason you are asking?

I for one think that it is respectful of people's feelings to admit past atrocities. Relations can be quite adversely affected when such admissions are not made.



Germany and Japan

Postby Morgan » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:14 am

The most salient examples that spring to mind are, specifically, post-WWII Germany and Japan.


Postby Guest » Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:29 pm




Geopolitics, apologies and praying for 'war criminals'

Postby Morgan » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:13 am

After WWII Germany's apologies were accepted, the EU project began and WWII became largely the stuff of history. In East Asia, however, though Japan has apologised on numerous occasions some nations are not satisfied and are demanding that visits to the Yasukuni Shrine - wherein 14 class-A war criminals are enshrined - by the Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's stop.

So, in fact, I have two questions. Firstly, is it legitimate for an elected representative to apologise on behalf of a nation even when many of those that were alive at the time the events in question were taking place have now passed away? And, if so, should a verbal apology suffice or is it necessary to make a written apology? Secondly, taking into consideration the fact that the next world is the world of light, is there any reason why prayers at the Yasukuni Shrine should be considered morally wrong?

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Postby Hasan » Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:26 am


Could be divine punishment? (quotes with emphasis)

http://bahai-library.com/?file=maxwell_ ... &chapter=1

Islam will greatly suffer. The Jews were punished for two thousand years. The Muslims - Sunnis and Shi'ihs - will suffer for a long time (because of persecuting the Bab and Bahá'u'lláh, opposing the Cause, etc.) It is their turn now to suffer, they will suffer in proportion to their crime. Then it will be the role of the Bahá'ís to vindicate the glory of the Imams, establish their spiritual position and significance. The important thing to remember about the 12th Imam is that he died - not disappeared - died.

The Báb, Qayyúmu’l Asmá’ Chapter XII:
Erelong We will, in very truth, torment such as waged war against Husayn [Imám Husayn], in the Land of the Euphrates, with the most afflictive torment, and the most dire and exemplary punishment...
God knoweth well the heart of Husayn, the heat of His burning thirst and His long-suffering for the sake of God, the Incomparable, the Ancient of Days; and unto Him God is verily a witness.
Chapter XXI:
Verily God hath deprived of His grace him who martyred Husayn, Our forefather, lonely and forsaken as He was upon the land of Taff [Karbilá]. Yazid, the son of Mu'aviyih, out of corrupt desire, bartered away the head of the true Joseph to the fiendish people for a trifling price and a petty sum from his property. Verily they repudiated God by committing a grievous error. Erelong will God wreak His vengeance upon them, at the time of Our Return, and He hath, in very truth, prepared for them, in the world to come, a severe torment.

Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Íqán 135-140:
Were the idle contention of these foolish and despicable souls to be true, they would have none other alternative than to reject all these holy utterances and heavenly allusions. For no warrior could be found on earth more excellent and nearer to God than Husayn, son of 'Alí, so peerless and incomparable was he. "There was none to equal or to match him in the world." Yet, thou must have heard what befell him. "God's malison on the head of the people of tyranny!"3

3Qur'án 11:18.

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Islam will not suffer.

Postby majnun » Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:15 am

Dear Hasan,
You expressed interesting points here.

When you say: Islam will greatly suffer,
Do you mean a region, or simply the ensemble of
Qur’an reciters ?

I think those who suffer today are those
Who intake a sort of aspirin witch is no more
efficient. And also those who do not follow any
spriritual programs, the vast majority of the world.

The suffering people are struck with today is
psychological. It is something you may feel internally,
and sometimes individuals hide it well.
Fortunately, new medicines are available.
Those who take it have such beautiful smiles,
in their eyes. Baha’is are so special, wherever
they are in the world.

Islam will not suffer, only people suffer.
The decline of Islam is visible, maybe not in
numbers, but inside people's head. Just think
dear Hassan, who can be happier than Baha'is
these days ? Maybe few other groups, and they
follow a program almost similar to us. Everywhere
I meet Baha'is, they always seem so happy, so calm,
so full of real life. Don't you agree ?
When those formidable writings do their job into us,
we are never to be the same again, aint that fun?

Ah before simonizing my belly button, id better stop
here, cause i like baha'i friends too much.


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Postby Hasan » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:15 am

Ok Majnun, thanks to express your feelings here.

About Islam suffer, I just quote a pilgrim note posted here:
http://bahai-library.com/?file=maxwell_ ... &chapter=1


John Lennon was right

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:47 pm

Dear Hassan,
I took a look at the pilgrims note you inserted in.

The line wich follows the paragraph quoted it this:

We must teach Islam with courage and not mind criticism.

I think it is not difficult to do just that.

Here is what i wrote today to my dear friend Edip Yuksel,
an active Muslim reformer in Arizona, in the middle of an
intensive debate with "Ayman" .You can view this confrontation
of ideas on:

http://19.org/forum/index.php?t=tree&th ... e54ea63f8b

Here is what I wrote on that forum, to both of them:
My style is sometime spiky, but in this case, i know
i address two mature adults, Edip is almost my age.
They both turn around and around in the Quranic
univers like children in a pool of used water, so i told
them what i think:

Yes it looks like a boxing match.
Okay, I can play that game. What prize will I win?
Here are my arguments to be cross-examined.

Obviously, we all mastered English to a degree,
but my point of observation is not in line with yours,
because of our background, and the path we chose.

I have in mind that we can never come to the same
consensus, either with or without the Qur’anic formation
we have learned, and we should accept that as normal.
So many people still fight over the “khatema”
affair on chapter 33, just think how childish that is, besides
the huge and wonderful promises the Qur’an makes to all of us.

First, dear Edip:
Do you mean to say in this post
[Updated on: Wed, 15 June 2005 06:22] that you do what
you do to reform him (mister Ayman) or to save him from
something not good for him ? Come on, we are not prophets,
nor saviours.

How I perceived Dr Rashad
I (Majnun, Salsabil, etc.) did some calculations too,
while I was spiritually spiked, and stimulated by Dr Rashad’s
discoveries, but I see these as precise arithmetic indications,
and that is all there is to it. No miracles, however exciting this is.
There is no mathematics in that, on the surface.
Just plain additions, subtractions, divisions, it is
. Honestly,
I am tired of eating always that same ole soup of numbers,
just to prove that the Qur’an is a proven celestial book.
Any honest person who reads (recites)
the Qur’an will agree it is genuine.

Edip knows that I am an outsider coming from a distorted
catholic background, and I am convinced that the Qur’an
comes from Allah. I did not need the “code 19” to accept that
fact, although I do not deny Dr Rashad extremely useful intervention.
I told you that many times Edip, and you know how I respect Dr Rashad
and what he has done to stimulate genuine spirituality
in this black and ruinous age.

The tapes shows Dr Rashad’s sincerity.
If someone saw Dr Rashad videos with Dr Abdu Rahman,
and the tapes of his Khutbas, and the other tapes (from Submission.org)
we may feel the humour and the sincerity and the intensity
of his dedication, and also his humour on many occasions
(remember Jeff and the honeybees).

Scriptures and dated prophecies.
The signs of the Qur’an are clear as the sun, but also it’s prophecies.
But who perceives them ? We say “peace” and “al Fatiha”
a million times in our lives, and learn Arabic, but these externalities
do not make us grow up and become more happy than before learning all this.

The Bible gave us precise datings too (prophecies), but it is
not a miracle, just indications. How Christians
declined such a clear indication of the coming of Muhammad and Ali,
is mind boggling.
It is written in Revelations (chapter 11) that Muhammad and Ali
would lead the next Cycle for humanity. But they still deny, how come ?
And how can Muslims say this scripture (Revelation)was invented,
while it predicts precisely the coming of Muhammad
(with the exact dates of the hegira calendar, mind you).
How could John have known this, 600 years before,
if not truly guided by Allah ?.

Where is the beef ?
So What is the point of making both your heads boil
just to prove a point ? In another words dear Edip and Ayman
: where is the beef in all these arguments ?
Maybe you will both conclude something intelligible
some day, or is it that this exercise of your thinking power has
a higher goal?

To be reduced to constantly re-interpret verses after verses and use them
as swords to win over philosophical positions chosen by any individuals,
this seem strange to me.
But it seems also it is the reality of many members of either here
or free-mind type of groupings. Oh we found code 19, we are saved !
We live in paradise now. Let’s spread the big news around.
Gees !
I conceive that religion must be a serious fun, seriously.
A source of joy for all, not just sword-words to spike at each other’s ego
neither to test nor psychoanalisis others, from a distance.

The god of Buddhism
If we look at religions with a compressive eye, we may find that
today, Buddhism and Christendom are nothing
but dead bodies, bodies without spirits, just a show
in front of statues (carved images).
That is so funny, you should try this: talks about money
in front of you Asian friends, or better, show him some bills,
you will instantly see the spark in his eyes.
That is the god of Asians now: dollars.

The arrival of superior religions
Then, how can we, we the intelligent who know the Qur’an
so well, how can we not see that the Qur’an predicts the coming
of superior religions ?
How can we still bathes in those used waters
while renewed writings are available? Will we do as Jews and
Christians did, ignore the indications ?

One day mister Lennon said:
Christianity will go, it will vanish and shrink.
I need not to argue about that. I’m right and will be
proven right. We (the Beatles) are more popular
than Christ now. I don’t know who will go first,
Rock’n’roll or Christianity, Jesus was all right, but his
disciples were thick and ordinary.

(printed in the Evening Standard, and Datebook, July 1966)

Was Lennon just another voice in the desert, a “dust in the wind” ?
NO, John Lennon was right, a seer clairvoyant.

Rock’n’roll is gone now, and it won’t come back.
and Christianity is gone too, except in few primitive
countries where recently unveiled colour television is another
ilaha, for now.
The saddest thing is that all those uneducated people
are now poisoned by the Catholic snakes, and most of this
primitive population do not understand a single line of the Scriptures.

What Bush defends is just a whoola hoop for TV.
Christianity is now but a dead body without spirit. They don’t even
read their holy books, except a microscopic minority. Christianic
spirituality now is nothing but a few learned sentences, and façade
morals remaining hidden far away in the nowhere-land of their memory.
Don’t throw pearl in front of pigs, don’t juge your neighbor,
love and be loved,
and bla bla bla. That salt has lost it’s flavour.

Looking at ourselves
It may sems fun to poke at the neighbors’ blindness, but can’t we
dare look at our own?
The reality of Qur’an in the world today is just about the same now,
like the fate of the Bible, just like the Ford Edsel.
Ali foretold that, if we trust the words of the Balagha.
The same will happened to Baha’i writings, but later in time.
Baha’u’llah himself foretold that, in his own writings. One day, newer
instructions will increase again the levels of humans.
With every new cycle from Allah, the one behind it fades.
Cannot you see that ? Violence is the just consequence
of ignorance.

Will you both discuss about a dead body until all your hairs
become white ?
Your capacity of admiring the qualities of others shows you
Edip are not an egocentric person, and you proved it so many
times that you are objective, most of the times, and I am not trying
to flatter you, it is a simple fact, and all who followed your work
over the years will agree.

But can you live without the Qur’an beside
you for a few days, you know, just leave Allah alone for a week-end?
Why should you all become Allah’s lawyers?
Tasting real peace and real happiness is not in the Qur’an,
Not anymore. That salt has lost it’s flavour, although the
basics are much higher than previous Scriptures.

New religions repair the cracks
Higher grounds are available now, a special ointment from Allah
that will repair all the cracks in our heads. a gift for prepared soils,
and I don’t just mean the Baha’i writings, some are more advanced
that this.
Smart Submitters should examine the new scriptures
before they open their mouth. Since their head is not polluted
with hadiths, they could possibly see more clearly.

Can a man change the way he thinks ?
So many people are depressive and sad, that when I mention
To them it is possible to get rid of all that suffering, they don’t believe it.
It is so simple, we just have to change, to correct, the internal way we think.
But how ? If we follow the next instructions Allah gives to us,
we don’t need a 7-year psychoanalysis to enjoy this state of mind.

What is offered ahead, you told me privately that it was impossible.
However the list of “jewels” available is impressive:

1. To erase inherited parasites, family traditions, from within.
2. To be liberated of all pains, all sufferings.
3. To be totally objective, without projecting.
4. To enjoy a united conscience, a lens refocusing.
5. To follow only the Creators commands (development plan)
6. To be able to interpret dreams (exactly like Joseph did)
7. To be totally liberated from our past.
8. To be able to recall every day of you life
(from the Qur'an : read thy book the day you feel (access to it))

I know that you don’t believe this one Edip, but I will prove
it to you in a few lines bellow, that you are able to access it.

9. To be happy, all the time.
10. And so many other things I am not permitted to disclose.

You wrote that I promote Baha’is, I say I study their writings.
I won’t stay attached to that label for long. Labels are just labels.
Why do you think Baha’is respect the Qur’an so much ?
It is because they know their education is given to them on the same
basics that formed the Qur’an. No Baha’is, no Babaists, no Raelians
in the world ever issue any denigration of the Qur’an. There are small
differences is the spiritual education tho, but I wont tell what they are.
My argument here is not to create a polemic.
(ah, another unintelligible word, sorry)

If anyone dip his little toe into the ocean of new scriptures,
he will know instantly why no baha’is ever say anything negative
about Qur’an. I only say, Qur’an had done it’s job very well, for that epoch,
just like did the book of Idris, and the Old and New Testaments, for their
own era. The sickness that prevails now Is different from 1400 years ago.
We need a stronger medicine.

In India, Meher Baba came up with
more highly advanced teachings than Baha’is, with the same base as
Qur’an and Baha’i..
In France and in Canada, prophet Rael brought us even more advanced
teachings than Baha’is and Meher, with the same base as Qur’an,
Meher, and Baha’i
(most Muslims and Baha'is jump on that one because I recognize publicly and privately that
prophet Rael is a messenger from above.)

We live through these continuous cycles. Those who open their eyes
benefits. The others die with a self imposed dreadful thirst,
while the cup is at arm’s length.
The easy term is: EVOLUTION.
If religions becomes a source of conflict,
Then humanity is better of without it.

To choose a life enclosed (hijabbed) by 6000 verses,
is unnatural. Look at what people do, they
look everywhere else to cross the barrier,
because what has liberated them has become
a prison. It is because of their natural thirst.

Then will you then stop trying to raise this dead body,
turning round and round into a children’s pool,
before they come to take you away, ah ah,
to the funny farm, where life is beautiful all the time…

Mind probing
Oh, yes, dear Edip, do you remember the faces of those who
applied pressure and persecution on your person while you was
In Turkey, their names, the places, the events? Do you remember
this emotion and the tears when your first child was born ? Do you
remember this strange feeling, your first time when you satisfied a woman?
You know that sex it is not a sin. Children come that way, and are
conceived in a pleasant atmosphere. Some things are common to most,
and other things are more private.

Ahhhhhh, so many things are recorded inside, but the conscience
does not remember all of them all the time. This function has two
Main purpose, but it would be to long to explain here. With the times
You may also realise that what your head tells you in dreams is just
a psychological compensation.

What I wrote here, is it so unintelligible words, or too « poetic » for some ?
The next cycle, after monotheism, will be zerotheism.
But this is too shocking for primitives.
Wake up gentlemen, Islam is now a dead end street for all.

If we are so lucky not to belong to the beer and wine religion,
and to be spiritually awaken and curious, should we not move
but a-forward ?

If we just turn round and round and re examine human translation
of the arabic prophetic verses 74:31, up to its tiny particules,
like NATU invites us to do here, we just
trow away our precious lifetime on this blue planet. Be content
that this friendly warning verse opens the Door to new religions.

Let the Edsel be where it belongs, in the past.

Majnun the “Iceman”

So dear Hassan, i used about the same tone i use
here, relaxing in a rocking chair, with a bit of humour
and imagery. I feel we must make muslims aware that
they can become awared, and make them realise that
all those internal fights over details of the Qur'an leads
them to a nowhereland. The style we use may differ a little,
according to the sensibilities of those who are going to read,
after all, we don't wish to blow "contrary winds" on people,
but invite them to something we are certain they are going
to appreciate.


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Postby Hasan » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:15 pm

Thanks Majnun, I agree that "tact" and also "caution" is needed to teach Muslims, but I also think Islam (Muslims) "had", "are" and will suffer more than Jews. Do you?

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Postby majnun » Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:18 am

This question is most intriguing.
If the question demands if Majnun think they will
suffer more than the Jews ?

The exact answer will be given by time.

Pain may be easily associated to the world of zaman (time)

When a toothache starts burning, and no dentist is
available for a week, and no asperine too, hhmm,
that is painful indeed, in intensity, and in time.

And if pains, like a toothache, is not removed, or given
a medicine, it will grow inside your head with time (zaman) passing by. It will accumulate.

And as it grows, you become that toothache,
it take more and more space into your
toughts and strangles you, almost kills you, morally speaking,
because you think just about that pain.

Then finally the liberator of pain comes,
the dentist is available, and you say: ahhhhh,
Thank god, I am alive again. Ma shaa Allah !

This comic example may inspire some.

So if Abdul Baha said what he said on Persia,
you will find it written on this site somewhere.

But all in all, I don’t think Allah is so rough to
make innocent people suffer for the misjudgement of a few “imbeciles”.
After all, we Baha’is are working for the amelioration
of this creation of Allah, so our aim is to free people from
pains, and not to sit back and say, ah, those are going to suffer
because of this, or that, or for killing the Bab, or something else.

If there is one pain I should fear the most (personally) it is to
have been so destructive to the Cause of the Creators,
Instead of having been constructive, that I would have to
face the Justice of my creators. This is one fate you wish to
nobody, and I speak seriously.

But if the question is: Do you (majnun) suffer actually?
The answer lies in the personal domain.


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Postby Hasan » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:40 am

Thanks for answer Majnun :D

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Postby brettz9 » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:28 pm

Islam, at once the progenitor and persecutor of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh, is, if we read aright the signs of the times, only beginning to sustain the impact of this invincible and triumphant Faith. We need only recall the nineteen hundred years of abject misery and dispersion which they, who only for the short space of three years persecuted the Son of God, have had to endure, and are still enduring. We may well ask ourselves, with mingled feelings of dread and awe, how severe must be the tribulations of those who, during no less than fifty years, have, "at every moment tormented with a fresh torment" Him Who is the Father, and who have, in addition, made His Herald--Himself a Manifestation of God--to quaff, in such tragic circumstances, the cup of martyrdom.

(28 March 1941, written by Shoghi Effendi to the Bahá'ís of the World, published in The Promised Day Is Come (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1980), pp. 99-100) [3]

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