Page 1 of 1

Bloodline of The Bab

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:03 am
by Keyvan
I was wondering if anyone knows where The Bab's roots to Muhammad stem from exactly. I mean, was He a lost descendent of Hassan al Askari or otherwise? thanks

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:29 pm
by Hasan
His Holiness Muhammad + Khadiyyih
Fatimih + Imam Ali Ibn Talib (1st Imam)
Imam Hasan (2nd Imam) ---- Imam Husayn (3rd Imam)
Descendants of Imam Husayn:

Fatimih Bagum + Mirza Muhammad Rida

Khadiyyih Bagum + His Holiness the Báb
Ahmad (died in childhood)

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:39 pm
by Keyvan
thanks, i know this but im wondering if theres a moer complete line. espessially after the 11th Imam

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:57 pm
by Hasan
Keyvan wrote:thanks, i know this but im wondering if theres a moer complete line. espessially after the 11th Imam

Well, Keyvan I’ll try to explain what I know.

One of the wives of Imam Husayn was Shahribanu (daughter of Yazdigird the last Sasaniyan King); the fruit of that union was ‘Ali, also called Zaynu'l-'Abidin the fourth holy Imam, he was a child and was ill when his father was martyred.

The Imanate continues with the fifth Imam Muhammad-Baqir; the son of Imam Ali Ibn Husayn (Zaynu'l-'Abidin) and his wife Umm-i-'Abdu'llah, she was his cousin (daughter of Imam Hasan)

6th Imam Ja’far-i-Sadiq
7th Imam Musa-Kazim
8th Imam Rida
9th Imam Muhammad-Taqi
10th Imam Ali-Naqi
11th Imam Hasan-i-Askari
12th Imam Muhammad al-Mahdi (died in childhood)

The Imam Husayn had also another wife and another children; it seems that the lineage of the Báb could be traced from that union.

Please scholars correct me, if I’m wrong.

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:27 am
by majnun
message deleted by the author.

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:21 am
by Hasan
Dear Majnun, I really doubt I know more about Islam than you. It is a Shi'ah belief the 12th Imam Muhammad al-Mahdi not died but hide, the Bahá'ís says the holy Imam died in childhood in 260 AH (873 874 AD). As I know the four gates were real saint persons.

This is an extract of Marzieh Gail, Six Lessons on Islam:

All the Imams were put to death except perhaps the last, who died as a child, in 260, and was succeeded for sixty-nine years by four successive "Gates" (abvab-i-arba'ih), who were known as his intermediaries. Then there was utter silence in Islam till the rise of the Báb in 1260 (the surih of Adoration states: "From the Heaven to the Earth He governeth all things: hereafter shall they come up to Him on a day whose length shall be a thousand of such years as ye reckon." (32:4). Hence the importance of the "Year Sixty.") The Muslims (Shí'ahs) claim the Twelfth Imam did not die, but disappeared into an underground passage at Surra-man-Ra'a, and now lives in one of the mysterious cities of Jabulqa or Jabulsa, to come forth at the time of the end and inaugurate the millennium. When I was in Persia I heard them chanting from the minarets, "O Lord of the Age (Sáhibu'z-Zamán), hasten Thy coming; the world hath fallen away -- set Thy foot in the stirrup!" They even struck silver coins in His name.
(Marzieh Gail, Six Lessons on Islam, p. 33)

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:59 pm
by Keyvan
hmm so The Bab couldnt have descended from the 12th Imam. I know after the 11th, his brother was ready to take the role....did The Bab descend from him?

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:26 pm
by Omid
Some Arab families can name their fathers father 13 or 14 generations back. I would not have been surpised if some related to the Bab or even the Bab himself was also able to do so. Alas, no real geneological record is around at present.

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:51 am
by brettz9
With all due respect to the great Marzieh Gail, I think in this case there is a mistake. Shoghi Effendi cites the following in the Introduction to the Dawn-breakers:

After assuming the functions of Imám and presiding at the burial of his father and predecessor, the Imam Hasan-i-'Askari, he disappeared from the sight of all save a chosen few, who, one after the other, continued to act as channels of communication between him and his followers. These persons were known as `Gates' (Abvab). The first of them was Abu-'Umar-'Uthman ibn-i-Sa'id Umari; the second Abu-Ja'far Muhammad-ibn-i-'Uthman, son of the above; the third Husayn-ibn-i-Ruh Naw-bakhti; the fourth Abu'l-Hasan Ali-ibn-i-Muhammad Simari. Of these `Gates' the first was appointed by the Imam Hasan-i-'Askari, the others by the then acting `Gate' with the sanction and approval of the Imam Mihdi. This period--extending over 69 years--during which the Imam was still accessible by means of the `Gates,' is known as the `Lesser' or `Minor Occultation' (Ghaybat-i-Sughra). This was succeeded by the `Greater' or `Major Occultation' (Ghaybat-i-Kubra). When Abu'l-Hasan Ali, the last of the `Gates,' drew near to his latter end, he was urged by the faithful (who contemplated with despair the prospect of complete severance from the Imám) to nominate a successor. This, however, he refused to do, saying, `God hath a purpose which He will accomplish.' So on his death all communication between the Imam and his Church ceased, and the `Major Occultation' began and shall continue until the Return of the Imam take place in the fulness of time." (Excerpt from "A Traveller's Narrative," Note O, pp. 296-99.)

(online here)

In a pilgrim's note, Shoghi Effendi is to have stated that the 12th Imám died (though one could still see this Imám being "hidden" and "returning" in a spiritual sense).

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:43 pm
by Guest
brettz9 wrote:With all due respect to the great Marzieh Gail, I think in this case there is a mistake.

Dear Brett I don't see the mistake, please tell where is it? thanks

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:51 pm
by brettz9
All the Imams were put to death except perhaps the last, who died as a child, in 260, and was succeeded for sixty-nine years by four successive "Gates"

The quotation from the Dawn-Breakers describes the twelfth Imam as communicating through these 4 gates (possibly outliving the last one?)--not being succeeded by them...

The description in the Dawn-Breakers does not necessarily mean it reflects the Bahá'í perspective of the historicity of the Imamate, perhaps, but I think 'Abdu'l-Bahá in an untranslated Tablet may have confirmed at least that there was a twelfth Imám.

best wishes,

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:25 am
by farid
as you also noted, the passage from dawnbreaker is only giving the common belief held by shiehs, not Bahai belief.
what I have so far read in Bahai books is that we believe the 11th imam didn't have any son. they actually kept his wives(or at least one of them) for up to 2 years to find out if any of them may have been pregrant, but they couldn't. Also 11th Imam's brother, Jafar, who said there was no son left from his brohter, 11th Imam, , was labeled as liar by shiah people and is famous as jafar the liar ( jafer kazab) among them .
from what I have read, those four guys were just a bunch of crooks, like many of today's religious leaders who made up the whole story.In fact when you think about it, you see how meaningless all of it is.
one of the books I have read all these in is aghdahol falah(=cups of salvaiton) by Eshragh khavai, I don't think it's translated to English, but you can check it to make sure.